D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[skyjack71 0]

I will sit back and be quieter, but the post I made today was an appropriate post as the actions of Ckret not confirming the information in the files is important.

You could have done this in a private email - to state that I am an unhappy person you do not know me....I just want the truth to be told. I will only post when I have somethng valid to contribute or need to ask a question..

I will post when the FBI agent makes a big faux pas - he has continuallly made statements and had to change them - He is an FBI agent - and he should be willing to verify information he states as fact. Perhaps you do not know how RUDE he has been to me on the phone - the last time was the ONLY time he listened at all and I had to beg.

He has never apologized or admitted to a mistake he made to the press - stating that I was informed of the DNA evidence in Feb of 2007 - I was NOT told until a few days before they went public in Oct. or Nov. of 2007. How do you make that statement made me feel and affected how others perceived me.
Judge not until you have been judged.

Other information for your eyes only is in a private email - perhaps they might make you understand my obvious alienation toward Ckret. Sorry I have been a problem to anyone.

[quade 4]

Ok folks . . . let's tone down the personal attacks on this forum, in emails and PMs.

Just a reminder.

We're talking about something that happened many years ago and there is seriously no reason whatsoever to get in heated arguments about it. That changes nothing and does not foster a spirit of cooperation between those that may know something and those wishing to know more.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[peckerhead 0]

....I just want the truth to be told.

No you don't.

You want to cram your "truth" down our throats.

You do not know the truth unless you made the jump yourself.

Only one person knows what happened and he is not talking.

If it were up to me I would have locked this thread a long time ago.




R.I.P.

[mccurley 1]

Well I'm glad it's not up to you then.
Approching 1500 posts and by and large mostly very good entertainment,and very interesting.
I agree that Jo's posts can get under the skin but I think most people can filter out what they find most annoying. And she has toned it down a bit.

To Jo
Good on ya for perserverance but do please pay attention to what some of the more generous folks have suggested to you.
You may firmly believe that Duane was DB but that dosn't make it so.
I think a few of the others on here believe with you.
But that still doesn't make it so.
Badgering the FBI guy won't make him do your bidding, but if anyone offers him something that looks even remotly like it will pan out, I am sure he will do his best to follow through.
From reading his posts as well as yours, I believe you are both passionatley intrested in finding out all there is to find.
I for one don't have a clue.
I hope he got away with it and some day we will find out. One of histories great who done its.

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[377 22]

Cooper is arguably the most famous jumper in history. That alone justifies some forum space here. As famous as he is, we don't know his identity and we don't know whether he is dead or alive. I can't think of a parallel situation in any other aviation category. Can you?

Deep Throat in the Watergate scandal is the closest I guess and he has no aviation connection. He was an unidentified informant whose info leaked to journalists led to Nixon resigning as President. For years speculation raged and many were certain they knew who he was. Fred Fielding, President Bush's current White House counsel, was the primary suspect. Turned out to be an FBI agent who almost nobody suspected... and no, I dont think Ckret or any of his fellow FBI agents is Cooper.

Let's stay civil on this forum so it doesn't get locked down. The folks who can do it are giving us strong hints.
If this gets locked down I'll have to go back to watching crime shows on TV and they aren't nearly as entertaining.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I agree with all of these posts. I'm not Skyjack71, so I can't say regarding off the forum behavior, but of what I've seen on here, Ckret has been of tremendous help. This thread would be no where without him on here. The posts on this thread are about 4 times more when he's around then when he isn't.

Even when I mistook his Kool Aid comment, I still wasn't really mad, I was just upset. Anyway... obviously we've made some and are making strides. Big thanks to all of DZ who is making this possible.

I promised an updated post regarding flight path and possible landing areas. I have a lot of this work done and I'm being a little more detailed this time around... mostly because I've learned as I've gone, but also that we're actually dealing with "live" scenarios (ones that could theoretically have happened). I'm not sure when I'll be able to post everything, but it is coming soon, and it will hopefully give us more to talk about.

Let's get back to the teletype... I want to see the additional pages. Plus, I used to be under the impression that the pressure bump and oscillation occured simultaneously, but since the oscillation was never mentioned, I started thinking maybe not... but then it was mentioned in the teletype conversation. Ckret, is there other corroborating testimony that would suggest the two happened at the same time?? I would think the aft stairs slamming into the fuselage would quickly alter the plane's aerodynamics and would cause such an oscillation...

[Ckret 0]

I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that. If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment.

Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump.

I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same.

As to my post on this board, PM's and phone conversations. I have publicly told all of you that I am FBI agent Larry Carr eventhough I use the pseudonym "ckret." Every post, every PM and every phone conversation I must represent as if I am speaking to the public, keenly aware of who and what I represent. Therefore, I can assure you all that I would never write or say anything that would reflect negatively on me or the FBI. You may not agree with me, but I would never treat anyone with disrespect in any form of communication.

Now lets get back to solving one the greatest "who-done-it's" in American history.

[quade 4]

Quote

Cooper is arguably the most famous jumper in history.

Yet simultaneously, one of the least important. Famous does not equal "worth endless amounts of study". Take Brittany Spears for example.

Let's just keep in mind that as far as anybody alive really knows and can PROVE, he made one jump and it doesn't look as if it was all that successful.

Meh. He's truly a trivial figure.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

QUADE,

You say its not important, but to some such as ckret, skyjack71 it is important. I find this way more interesting to read than a post of "what are we going to do about SKYRIDE" or who wants to see boobies. but that is my opinion like you have yours on this subject. you are looking at this as skydiving only i think. This is also somthing that changed history. I can honestly say i have learned a great deal about this case. When i started out when Jo posted this, i thought DB Cooper- took a bunch of money, jumped, died, but i am seeing more that makes this one of the skydiving communities greatest folklore and a subject that changes all the time as more info comes out in here. There has been a lot of new information come out in this forum be it for Jo or Ckret or anyone else. We have a generation of jumpers now under canopy that were born long after this happened and think DB Cooper is the guy who flys the jet at Perris Valley.. I respect your opinion and would like to see this keep going.
Blues
D

[Guru312 0]

Quote

...
We're talking about something that happened many years ago and there is seriously no reason whatsoever to get in heated arguments about it.
...

I disagree.

We have a very serious reason for getting into heated arguments and that reason is our quest for facts which could lead to the truth about one of the more fascinating mysteries of our time.

Similarly, we definately do not have any serious reason to treat each other disrespectfully...or meanly...simply because we're shielded from each other by a net of anonymous bits and bytes.

This thread is the second most popular in SH&T after the one started by steve1 named "Scary stories from the old days?"

Quade, in my estimation your personal thoughts on the DB mystery are just as appropriate and valid as mine or anyone else's. I'm bothered that your prejuidice regarding the issue may be interfering with your moderator responsibility.

Look at the numbers:

steve1 started the "Scary stories" thread on Nov 6, 2002 125778 views and 884 replies.
skyjack71 started the DB thread on Nov 21, 2006 64084 views and 1432 replies.

Steve's thread was started five years ago; Jo's thread roughly one year ago. Jo's thread has half as many views and almost twice as many replies in roughly 20% of the time.

I'd like to know what statistics exist for "Most popular threads on DZ.com" if any one has them. It would be instructive to see where this DB thread fits into the scheme of things.

As long as we are civil toward one another, what difference does it make how stupid or trivial the topic is to you?

Since you have told us that no chance exits for the creation of Subject of DB's own, can we start multiple threads within SH&T with Subjects such as: The DB Cooper Mystery: History and Background; The DB Cooper Mystery: Reference Links; The DB Cooper Mystery: What we know from the evidence; The DB Cooper Mystery: Speculation and Comments

Doing something like what I suggest would allow those of us fascinated by the topic to interact more meaningfully. Would you approve something such as what I list, above?

Finally, it always makes me smile when these personality issues break out in this thread. It makes me smile because we--the skydivers of the world--have, in fact, hijacked this thread completely in violation of "The Rules" here.

Jo specifically states in her very first post: "I don't want to debate theories about how the crime was done and who else may have done it. All I want is to find information about sky jumping and any information I might be able to find about Duane Lorin Weber and any of his AKA's."

We have totally hijacked the thread. Which seems fitting, given the subject.

Please ask the powers that be if my idea for multiple thread subjects will burden your servers or destroy the integrity and goal of DropZone.com.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Zing 2]

Yeah ... what he said!

Zing Lurks

[quade 4]

One thread on this topic is enough.

If you'd like to create threads, forums, web sites, books, movies, or whatever elsewhere, then you're free to do so. No one will stop you, but on this web site, this thread is enough. Enjoy it while it is still tollerated.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

This is the first time I have PUBLICALLY disclosed the location East of Winterly Park...I have not done so until this moment except to the FBI - just hope savengers don't go out and destroy property looking for something that is no longer there.

Jo,

Do you mean "Wintler Park"?

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[bozo 0]

Quote

One thread on this topic is enough.

If you'd like to create threads, forums, web sites, books, movies, or whatever elsewhere, then you're free to do so. No one will stop you, but on this web site, this thread is enough. Enjoy it while it is still tollerated.

----------------------------------------------------------

Still tolerated ? My....that came off as rather condescending....doncha think ?
As I understand it , this site is for sharing of information .
Has it now turned into just a place for the moderators to exercise a little muscle ?

I for one have entirely enjoyed this particular thread as I was in a far away place in the military when DB did his deed......it held my attention then as it does now.
Carry on folks.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[quade 4]

Quote

Still tolerated ?

The topic is fine. It's the back and forth bickering that has to be tolerated. If you look at the history of the web site, many lesser threads have been locked or simply trashed for far less than what has gone on here.

Quote

Has it now turned into just a place for the moderators to exercise a little muscle ?

Bozo, if that were the case, I would have done so long ago. What "muscle" have I exercised? Telling people to keep it civil? Yes, yes, I can see where that has been an overpowering force. Forgive me for doing the actual job of moderation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

All right with that said quade will go back to lurking for the offenders, the idiots who want to slam everyone go to the general forum and the rest of us will get back to what we came here to discuss what happened from that night till now, who did it, how it was done and where he and the money went. Quade feel free to jumpin if sombody gets mouthy, Ckret, Jo, Safe and everyone lets resume, where were we? Oh that's right, Safe you owe us some data,Ckret you owe us some info and Jo what new have you found on duane? I still want to know haw you sench up a bag the size of the money bag with ropes without help? To me somthing still doesn't add up in the plane that night.

Blues
D

[bozo 0]

Quote

Quote

Still tolerated ?

Bozo, if that were the case, I would have done so long ago. What "muscle" have I exercised? Telling people to keep it civil? Yes, yes, I can see where that has been an overpowering force. Forgive me for doing the actual job of moderation.

PM sent.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Did Cooper land near a Washougal tributary?
Did Cooper lose the money upon exit?
Did Cooper die without pulling the ripcord?
Did Cooper lose the money upon landing?

These are the primary questions this post is about to answer. It's a continuation from posts that have been made in the last two weeks beginning on thread page 43 & 44.

For those of you who are just now catching up, a quick refresher: It was determined that the original estimated landing zone for the notorios DB Cooper could not have feasibly explained money that was discovered along the Columbia river on 2-10-1980. The reason is because all of the streams in this vicinity eventually adjoin the Columbia several miles to the north, downstream from the found money. Further, it was determined to be impossible for Cooper to have landed near a suitable tributary if he jumped prior to 8:12 pm.

This post examines these same questions by looking at Cooper's jump if it occured at or before 8:15pm.

The Assumptions:
Flight 305 traveled from point "F" on the FBI's landing zone map, to BTG-VOR, a navigation transponder that signifies a turning point on Victor 23. It then proceeded to the RAWER intersection. Using a +/- half mile buffer (I really only used the eastern half mile buffer), I was able to draw in an approximate route.

The known winds have been adjusted upward. Ckret posted various wind velocities ranging from 23-29 mph upon descent, and winds of 17 mph at the surface.

Cooper jumped using a NB-6. It was documented that Cooper had a 28' canopy, but the NB-6 typically is packed with a 26' conical. Nevertheless, the descent rate assumed is 1,000 feet per minute. Using this rate, if Cooper pulled his chute exactly at 10,000 feet & using the known winds at various altitudes, Cooper could have traveled 4.4 miles if he landed at 0 elevation, and 4.1 miles if he landed at an elevation of 1,000 feet. These numbers were derived by assuming no horizontal speed when the chute was deployed. In actuality, Cooper's horizontal speed would have reduced this distance simply because of the trajectory in question.

First, did Cooper land near a Washougal tributary? To answer this, I outlined the perimeter of all Clark County Washougal tributaries. I came up with 16 points that I used. Instead of posting all of these, I will summarize instead.

The two closest points from the flight path to the Washougal River perimeter were examined. Wind direction was not accounted for because the distances and elevation in question are deemed impossible.

The closest possible point from the flight path to the Washougal River is 11.24 miles. In addition, Cooper would have to jump at approximately 8:17-8:18 and travel in a perfect easterly direction.

Taking a straight line from the flight path to WR 10, Cooper would have to travel 12.27 miles in an easterly manner. In addition, WR 10 has an elevation of 1528 feet. If this was Cooper's landing point, he would have to travel over 12 miles in less than 8.5 minutes. This translates to 86.6 mph. Needless to say, if Cooper could have actually achieved this feat, then his death upon impact would be fairly explanatory.

Please see WR Distance small for a graphical image of these points.

Conclusion: If Cooper landed near a Washougal Tributary, then he certainly died. His lateral speed would be enough to kill him upon impact. However, even when disregarding wind direction, Cooper would need sustained winds of nearly 90 mph to land remotely close to a Washougal tributary. Therefore, the conclusion is a definite no.

Did Cooper lose the money upon exit?

To answer this, I looked at the flight path and compared it to the known tributaries. We can rule out the Columbia river as the sole travel mechanism simply because flight 305 crossed the Columbia far after the pressure bump was recorded.

The third factor to consider is how far the money can travel during its fall. To calcuate a true answer, you would need to know where Cooper jumped to calculate elevation, the terminal velocity of the bag of money, and the deceleration rate of horizontal speed.

For simplicity purposes, I'm assuming no deceleration of horizontal speed and a full 10,000 foot drop. The terminal velocity of the money bag is unknown, and therefore I used a wide range.

The closest tributary is about 2 miles from the BTG-VOR turn point after factoring in a half mile buffer.

If the terminal velocity is 90m/s, then the money bag will reach 0 elevation in about 38 seconds (+/- 1 sec). Because ground speed depends on where Cooper jumped along with several variables that are currently unknown (undisclosed or unrecorded), I cannot say for sure what the horizontal velocity of the bag was. On the high estimate, 200 mph of horizontal speed would yield a drift of 2.1 miles.

If 90m/s seems a little fast for a canvas bag, then I also looked at a 50m/s terminal velocity. At this rate, the money would hit the ground in about 63 seconds. Because we're assuming a 50m/s terminal velocity, we must also assume that the money would slow down to at least this rate of speed during the fall. Without constant horizontal force, the bag would decelerate... I just cannot say how much and how quickly. Taking out all deceleration and any opposing winds, the money could theoretically travel 3.5 miles. The experienced DZ members could give us some insight as to horizontal speed decay, but my guess would be the total number of miles traveled would be cut at least in half, putting it outside of our target area.

With our conservative assumptions, the money can feasibly travel far enough. The question then becomes, in what direction? The trajectory would follow the flight path. Taking our eastern most flight path, the money would miss our landing area by over a mile. Since we know there were winds of up to 30 mph, let's assume those constant winds and determine an eastward drift. With 63 seconds of fall time, the money could veer east half a mile. Keep in mind the area in question is a fringe border and if the money falls short of the border and then finds its way to water, it will adjoin the Columbia several miles north of where the money was found via Salmon Creek.

Half a mile of wind drift will not push the money more than 1 mile it needs to land in the LaCamas tributary area. Please see LaCamas Fall for a visual description.

Here's a few other things to consider: the area in question is comprised of farmlands. If the money had that level of horizontal and vertical speed, it's reasonable to conclude the bag would likely rip apart upon impact. It would certainly bounce and tumble, most likely spilling out the money encased inside.
Since the money landed in farmlands, you have to assume no farmer ever saw any stacks of money. You also have to account for 3 stacks showing up in proximity to each other after traveling down some streams. Further, this scenario requires you to believe the money could float in LaCamas lake.

Because of the trajectory, wind drift, and unlikely ancillary assumptions required to fit this theory, the conclusion is that Cooper could not have lost the money upon exit.

Did Cooper die without pulling the ripcord?

We've already determined that the money cannot find its way to the tributary zone by itself. Would money attached to Cooper make it more likely that it drifts into this zone? The short answer would be no.

The horizontal speed deceleration would be greater, causing the drift distance to become shorter. Upon impact, the body might actually protect the money bag from ripping apart, so this aspect has improved. However, since the area in question happens to be farmlands, now you'd have to assume that no one ever saw a body and that the money bag stayed attached to Cooper upon landing but then detached itself over the years, tumbled into a stream, went down stream, into LaCamas Creek, into LaCamas Lake, made its way down into the mouth of the Washougal river, adjoined the Columbia river, and then washed up where the money was subsequently found.

The trajectory doesn't support this, and the assumptions are great. All other jump points north of the Columbia river intersection will eventually feed the Columbia river north of where the money was found.

Conclusion: Cooper did not die without pulling the ripcord.

Did Cooper lose the money upon landing?

Now that you've seen the areas in question, you know that we're dealing with a 2 mile distance from the closest tributary to the closest point on the flight path. However, now we're assuming that Cooper pulled his chute with the canvas bag still strung from his waist and that somehow, he still managed to lose the money.

Because we're dealing with up to 10 minutes of canopy time, wind direction must be taken into account.

We have SW to SSW winds. In fact, the winds are between 225 and 235 degrees.

If Cooper free falls for 6 seconds before pulling his chute, he has already trimmed 675 feet or so from his canopy time. If he waits 8 seconds before pulling the ripcord, he has shaven more than a minute off his canopy time.

Still, we're going to assume a full 10,000 feet.

With ten minutes of canopy time, he can travel up to 4.4 miles if we disregard horizontal exit speed (which in this case, works against us).

Using 4 to 4.4 miles and a wind of 225 to 235, along a flight path with a half mile buffer to either side, there is only one tributary area that Cooper can make it into. Please see Brush Prairie small jpg to see this area. You will see the distinct area outlined in blue. Each corner has a corresponding number. The three digit numbers you see within the encircled area are the elevations.

Given our half mile buffer of flight path, it's essentially impossible for Cooper to land south of LC9 (LC means LaCamas, the pic only denotes the number 9). After looking at several derivative points, the only area within this particular zone that are feasible is north of point 9, and west of point 3 (in the brush prairie pic, it's point 3, in Target Area pic, it's point 4).

This is truly a miniscule area when you consider the "theoretical" landing points were thought to be almost infinite. However, keep in mind, we're examining only this one theory: Cooper lost the money when he landed.

Using the known coordinates of these LC points, I computed distance and bearing using FizzyCalc; navigation software that allows one to measure distances and angles. The 235 degree wind would have to be the predominant wind direction if Cooper were to make it into this area.

The 225 degree path, in conjuction with the flight path, eliminates much of the feasible jump and landing points. Still, given what we know, it is feasible.

Before we declare this theory true or not, we must examine all relevant factors. First, Cooper has to pull his chute almost immediately. As stated, if Cooper waits 6 to 8 seconds before pulling his ripcord, he has shaved up to 10% of his canopy time. In addition, in this time he has horizontal speed moving away from the target. Without knowing how fast his horizontal speed would decelerate, it's conceivable that he could travel up to a quarter mile the wrong way within 8 seconds. (180 mph likely ground speed = 1/20th of a mile per second X 6-8 seconds > .25 miles). While his horizontal exit speed does not disqualify the theory, it's something to take into consideration. The further he drifts, the further he has to travel under canopy to compensate and the less canopy time he has to do this.

Also under this theory, the canvas bag must remain fully secured to Cooper's body during the entire descent. Upon landing, the bag must instantaneously detach itself from Cooper as he PLFs. Cooper would have to roll on the ground, get up, grab his chute in the dark, and then search endlessly for the money without finding it. He then has to give up entirely before morning.

Sound likely?

Before you answer yes, please look at the next picture, Target Area. Here you will see where Cooper must land. It's feasible for him to land anywhere within the boundaries, but his most likely area would be the west side of line 5-9 (this line is not drawn in on the pic).

If have an aerial map of your own, you can zoom in on this area for yourself. You can actually see cows grazing in this pasture.

If you believe Cooper lost the money upon landing, then you believe the money remained with him through exit, through canopy descent, and then detached in this farm area. You also believe that Cooper could not find the money bag and he left without it. Further, you believe that no local famers ever saw this money bag, even if they walked or tended to their fields with tractors. In addition, though the lands are generally flat, you believe the money somehow rolled down into one of the (very tiny) streams and eventually made its way into LaCamas Creek. You then believe the money was able to float in LaCamas Lake and drifted south without any fishermen ever seeing it. You then believe the money made its way to the Columbia, drifted downstream and deposited itself where it was found on 2-10-1980.

Did it happen this way?
Well, looking at what you must believe for this to occur, no.

Conclusion:
I have a better chance at winning the powerball lottery than of this scenario panning out. It's possible, but highly unlikely, and by highly unlikely, I mean 145 million to 1. (though I'm no statistician so don't quote me on that).

Here's a bonus theory to explore:

Did Cooper pull his chute and then die upon impact anyway?

You already know where he must land for this to happen. You already know what you must accept about the money for this to have happened. Now we add a second variable which is that the money never detached from Cooper's body until some later point after his death.

Assuming Cooper can land in this target zone (and that is an IF that we'll discuss in a moment), he has to enjoy sustained winds between 23 and 29 mph. The ground winds were 17 mph. His lateral speed would have slowed to 17 mph. Upon landing, we have to assume that this rate of speed is enough to kill him. There are hardly any trees in the target zone, and therefore, his death would be strictly from a bad landing. He'd have to PLF and break his neck.

His canopy would be open, his body would lie on the ground. The general area is pasture lands owned by farmers. With news of the Cooper hijacking everywhere, you have to assume that no farmer ever saw the canopy or Cooper's dead body on their land. You then have to assume everything else covered in the last question.

To quote a well known skydiver of the NW:
"I'm just convinced that if he pulled the ripcord, he made it"
~ Earl Cossey in a 1979 interview

I mentioned "if" Cooper can make it into the target area.

The confounding variable that was not explored was the timeline. There were too many unknowns to calculate the ground speed, and even if I was successful, the plane did not fly at a constant rate. I can tell you that the distance between point F on Ckret's map that he posted (pg 47 I believe) to the transponder known as BTG-VOR is roughly 7.8 miles. If the plane was at point F at precisely 8:12, then as the plane is changing its header and venturing towards the RAWER intersection, it's precariously close to 8:15. As the plane moves south and intersects with present day I-205, we are certainly flirting with a post 8:15 timeline. Though the 205 was not there in 1971, this intersection is roughly where Cooper would have to jump inorder to make it into the "target zone". All other areas are impossible.

Please see the next picture (distance to t zone sm).

You will see the 225 degree angle quickly becomes unachievable as the plane travels south. This tributary "zone" only progresses east as you trace it south, thus, the distance increases drastically as the plane flies south (see distance increases jpg & tributary zone 2 sm).

Simply put, if Cooper does not make it into the target zone, and if he jumps before the plane makes its way to the Columbia river, then someone moved the money by foot at some point.

The only variable not fully accounted for is the "known" flight path utilzing radar information from McCord AFB. The plane would have had to venture significantly east, or failed to change headers by a substantial distance for a new target zone to emerge. Further, if a new target zone could be shown, you still have an issue of money floating in LaCamas lake for a period of time without any fishermen ever seeing it.

For an idea on just how far the plane would have to venture east, on these pictures, the left white line denotes the actual assumed flight path, the line on the right is half a mile east. I did not create a line to the west since it really had little relevance to what we were measuring.

Therefore, the likely conclusion:
Cooper survived the jump.

[grimmie 186]

Was the 10,000ft AGL or MSL?

Wasn't there a theory that he never jumped and hid in the plane?

Did the flight attendants look at a picture of each of the main suspects such as Mayfield right after the hijacking?

Could the container he was wearing stand up to 200mph exit speed and very unstable exit without getting blown open?

There used to be a jump pilot at Perris years ago from the midwest that said he knew a jumper named "Don Broyles", or something like that was Cooper. He was POSITIVE about it! And over the years many other jumpers have had theories on who did it! Don't lock this thread or branch it off...it's way too interesting as it is! Especially to us older farts!

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Quote

Was the 10,000ft AGL or MSL?

Good question... I don't know. I've seen Ckret reference MSL, but for calculations I still used a total fall of 10,000 feet... I figured I would cover the bases that way, but since I mentioned the elevation of WR 10 (a washougal tributary perimeter point I used), then I'm obviously assuming MSL to a large extent.

I think it's time to look into this Don Broyles... or people who's names sound similar to Doyle Brunson, LOL. (sorry, it's the name that stands out to me when I saw the name)

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Quote

Was the 10,000ft AGL or MSL?

Good question... I don't know. I've seen Ckret reference MSL

Pilots reference MSL in all their talk. Even jump pilots. It's us skydivers who get hung up on our AGL lingo.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[speedy 0]

Safecracking :
I think some of the stuff you posted in the post I am replying to are a bit off.
Kallend (user name here on DZ.com), if he cares to take part, could provide a wealth of information about freefall dynamics of people, bags of money and even space balls.

Just a few things I picked up on that I don't think are correct.

>If the terminal velocity is 90m/s
Is that 90 meters per second?
No way would a bag of money fall at 90 m/s

>I'm assuming no deceleration of horizontal speed and a full 10,000 foot drop.
The forward throw/horizontal speed will decrease rapidly upon exit.

The guy with the qualifications to work out where what landed depending on exit time is Kallend.

With his knowledge and your info about the landscape you could probaly pin point the exit time.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

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Is that 90 meters per second?
No way would a bag of money fall at 90 m/s

Yes, 90m/s. This is why I also ran the calculation at 50m/s. If you still think this is too high, then we can revisit this. But, if Kallend can give us some insight as to horizontal rate decay, that would be helpful too... I lack the skill to compute an accurate drift distance. I will say, even if I'm off and the 3.5 miles is closer to truth, it will still have to veer east, and we'd need to examine this as well.

I can't pinpoint the exact "time"... it was a hypothetical example taken from the exact point where the plane is closest to the tributary zone.

I do think what I posted deserves a further look from people who would know how to accurately calculate this. This would especially be true regarding falling money/falling Cooper. It's certainly the closest margin of all the theories.

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The forward throw/horizontal speed will decrease rapidly upon exit.

I think you're likely correct, I just have no way of calculating this, I don't know the coeffecient of friction, etc... but if what you're saying is correct, it will become even less likely to land in the tributary zone if the forward throw decreases rapidly. How fast do baseballs lose their speed? A baseball only travels 100 mph, now double that, I'd guess within a few seconds that bag of money has decelerated substantially... we need it to travel at least 2 miles but also get pushed by the wind to the east.

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"Could the container he was wearing stand up to 200mph exit speed and very unstable exit without getting blown open?"

The riggers will have to give their opinions but wouldn't the surplus containers with 3 or 4 pins and cones be more resistant to getting blown open than a modern single pin and closing loop container?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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I think that's a good idea, ask someone who would know more... if the NB6 was a emergency pilot rig, then I'm sure it could withstand an aweful lot. However, this sort of misses the point...

The hypothetical situations that I'm posting aren't really to say "what" happened, but rather to explore the possibilty of these theories holding out. To do this, I try to take the most conservative approach I can... I do this because I'm not an expert.

My personal opinion isn't that Cooper pulled his chute immediately... I really don't think that's what happened at all. My guess is, he took some serious time to stabalize, but he'd still have significant time to pull the cord. Once he's falling for 15 to 20 seconds, he's going as fast as he will vertically and his horizontal speed has likely diminished, if he pulls his cord between seconds 20 and 30, he's still okay, and aside from the nerves, there's probably not too much difference in pulling his chute at TV 30 seconds into the fall than there is pulling it at 10 seconds in.

But for purposes of exploration, I used 10k to give him the most amount of drifting possible, which would then give us the most flexibilty and the highest probabilty of him landing near a tributary. Obviously if it would have shown him overshooting the target, that only proves it's possible; he just has to pull the cord a little later.

Along this entire flight path, there's really no high elevations. I think the highest is around 1500 feet and that was Bald Mtn up near the Lewis River/Merwin Dam (and then of course those monsters up in Cowlitz).

The two things I think will happen on this thread in the next few days are: there will be some discussion about the flight path. I think the other thing will be discussion about the timeline... and then maybe some corrections of some of the things I assumed. Maybe it will be enough to force us back to the drawing board, or maybe not... we'll see.