D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Safe,

In LaCamas Fall 1 small you have the "BTG VOR" and "half mile east of VOR" switched or inconsistantly labeled.

I thinkj it is ther later.

Sluggo_Monster

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[SafecrackingPLF 0]

It's actually a screw up in how google earth displays it. The points are actually correct, it's just when it's zoomed out, they look mislabeled...
I didn't know how to change this.

Thanks, let me know if you see anything else... I know I did catch a slight difference in points I used in the target zone, but this was pointed out in the post.

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo,

Do you mean "Wintler Park"?

Sluggo_Monster

Yes, that would be the one - It is on the Columbia on the WA side.

East of the park there is Another probable location - I was told that the property went down like that - and with the parallel roads in 1979...and the rails went along there also..Unfortunately with time being a priority for my flight back I was not able to go to this other area. It meant going back to the highway and back down to the river.

I never knew if this other site was more in keeping with my memory.

This is the memory:

Two parallel roads with a steep incline down to the river - I could not see the banks of the river below. The car was parked pointing West - and this is why I didn't think if was Wintler - The direction in which we were parked - there was no park or any construction going on. It is my understanding that this park was finished in 1978 - but I did not see it....hence why I had some doubt.

Also to the North - there was like a berm and the tracks - he told me that over that berm was some nice homes....just what I saw at Wintler was not dead on, but things change from 1979 to 2000 - that is 21 yrs. When I got out of the car - he pointed West of Portland and said he used to know a man that lived there and he pointed to the East and told me that just beyond the trees which were blocking the view was the Portland Airport Tower.

When we left there - we went back to the main road and then back down to the water. I understand that you did not have to do that at the park in 1979. But we go back to the water - to a place I can't describe - but it was obviously a commercial area and we were at the waters edge. He got out and I got out, but we didn't stay and he didn't say much - he told me what this place was, but it is lost to my memory. It appeared to have something to do with loading or fueling.

The next stop was the Motel on the river at the Bridge....did that Motel ever have a LION on it or the words Lion? Just had a glimer of something in my memory just now.

[Ckret 0]

Nice work, I am getting in touch with some private companies who offered their assistance in this area, I think we will be able to use your work as a starting point.

So here is the criteria for my theory, Cooper had to land some place where he died, that his body would have gone unnoticed and the area had to be capable of feeding into the Columbia (keep in minds the 77 flood). This area had to be, according to the flight crew, in the areas north of Vancouver between the 8:11 - 8:15 time frame.

It looks as though from your work that many aspects, if not all of the above theory is an impossibility. This is not a bad thing, it now frees up other possibilities

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

SafecrackerPLF,

That is an excellent, scholarly work. It is much easier to follow than the previous (long) post.

Now this board can take each of these points and argue/refine the assumptions until a picture emerges that all can agree on.

There is one statement that I don’t understand; you said “the plane did not fly at a constant rate”. What do you mean by that? It was a 727, flying very “dirty” (flaps at 15 deg, wheels down). The pilot was trying to comply with the 150 KIAS demand of the highjacker, why would the plane not fly at a constant rate?

Switching gears here: Why doesn’t anybody ever hypothesize that Cooper’s body was found shortly after he jumped (like the next morning). [Think Cheech & Chong movie here. Oh wow man… he’s dead man! Yeah man.. And he’s got a whole lot of bread man!] A person or persons stumbling across his body in a semi-secluded area, wouldn’t be happening onto the “unsolved crime of the century”, they would have just found a dead guy with A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY, who fell out of the sky last night. We know the search area was waaaaay north. If they could make the dead guy and his gear go away, they could get away with the equivalent today to $1.2 million. Just a thought.

Sluggo_Monster

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[ryoder 1,590]

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If they could make the dead guy and his gear go away, they could get away with the equivalent today to $1.2 million.

...in bills with recorded serial numbers, which never showed up in circulation.

Now I'm wondering, if one came into possession of such loot, how could it be used/laundered? Would every bank on the planet really check those serial numbers? What is the possibility of transporting it out of the country and depositing it somewhere the serial numbers didn't get checked? Also, for how long did banks check for those numbers? Are they still checking today?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Skyjack71,

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did that Motel ever have a LION on it or the words Lion?

Yes, you're describing the Red Lion at the Quay. It's still there and it's still a premium hotel. Their Sunday brunch costs $20 a pop, but the view from the restaurant is terrific.

Commercial area could be anywhere.

Ckret,

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Cooper had to land some place where he died, that his body would have gone unnoticed and the area had to be capable of feeding into the Columbia (keep in minds the 77 flood).

Not that I'm trying to ressurect the theory, but the only way this happened, using the information we have now, is that he'd have to travel and then die. Another option would be like what Sluggo_Monster suggested, that maybe someone actually found him, but then never reported it. Both ideas could have happened, though it's not that likely. First, if Cooper could hike up into the woods that feed Washougal, why go there? Why stop? That's a very long way to go no matter where we calculate the landing zone. If he can make it that far, then he can certainly make it the whole way. As for someone finding the body but not reporting it (or at least finding the money and not reporting it), it's pretty much the same argument you could make had one of the bills ever shown up in circulation (we would know someone spent the money, but couldn't be 100% Cooper spent it).

If you want to revisit the flight path, then we might open some possibilities, but my gut says he's still landing on the west side to the "tributary zone" that feeds LaCamas lake, but that's more than we're able to logically say at this point in time, so maybe it's worth a shot?

Sluggo_Monster,

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you said “the plane did not fly at a constant rate”. What do you mean by that?

Perhaps I should have used the word "speed" instead of "rate". From what I've been told, the plane traveled between 170 to 180 kts. Without knowing for how long or where these velocities are maintained, we could never really "pinpoint" a jump location using calculations. We could use the radar to do that though.

As for the search being "way" north, based on what we know right now (and maybe it can change with additional information) my guess is that the original timeline was closer to what happened. My guess is that the oscillation reported at 2012 occured simultaneously as the pressure bump, but maybe there's something in the files that would indicate this.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Excellent points about the loot.

Here's what we know:
Cooper, assuming what I've shown here holds true to scrutiny, did not spend all of the money. Maybe he never spent any, maybe he spent some, but obviously a portion of that money went down the Columbia.

Why? When? How?
Those are questions we can work through over time.

As for the serial numbers... if it were me, I know what I'd do... I'd go someplace where it's common for people to carry a lot of cash. Since I'm a Vegas guy, I'd go there... I'd buy a few black chips at a time, wander around, maybe play some $5 hands, then call it good and cash out and get untraceable bills. They didn't have video survelience back then, they only had cat walks and mirrors.

Second, we assume that all banks across America had the capability to scan every bill that they came into contact with, and then take it one step further and run a search of that number against any known "ransom" serial numbers listed, Cooper ransom or any other ransom that had been tracked. I don't know the answer if this was possible or not.

Third, tendered cash goes soft fairly shortly. 20s would fit this. 100s not so much, those tend to get stuck in bank vaults even today when a c note isn't that big of a deal. But the treasury routinely has to destroy currency when it reaches the end of its useful life. That time frame is usually within 5-7 years (now I could be off a bit here, I'm just going off of feel of what I know... I spent time on wheresgeorge.com). Most of the Cooper bills were 69 issue if I recall correctly. Would the treasury track these bills as they're destroyed? If so, would they flag bills that match ransoms? I'm sure they looked for counterfeit bills... what else, if anything, did they track in the 70s?

If you combine the idea that Cooper could not have spent all of the money (how much or how little remains to be seen), with the idea that there are countless bills in circulation, and a time factor, geographic factor, and perhaps a limit of technology in the 70s, is it possible for money to be spent without it ever being flagged?

I don't know.

Further, if it is possible, how much could reasonably be spent before you start saying "surely by now they would have found at least one of these things!"

I don't know that either.
Total number of bills in the ransom:
10,000.
Total number of bills in circulation in the 70s?
I do not know.

But there's a good start to figuring out probabilities.

[ryoder 1,590]

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But the treasury routinely has to destroy currency when it reaches the end of its useful life. That time frame is usually within 5-7 years (now I could be off a bit here, I'm just going off of feel of what I know... I spent time on wheresgeorge.com). Most of the Cooper bills were 69 issue if I recall correctly.

Life expectancy of paper currency:

http://www.frbservices.org/help/coin_and_currency.html#a5

So it is 2 years for a $20 bill.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Guru312 0]

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..."BTG VOR" and "half mile east of VOR"

In the event that you folks haven't had enough stuff to read about DB...

I searched for "BTG VOR" on Google and found this:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44859&highlight=db+cooper

I'm passing this along because I haven't seen a link within this thread to the material although one person mentioned "websleuths"

My apology if you've all seen it.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check to see if any of the serials poped up. As for bills being scanned when they go through US Treasury, its to look for counterfeiting and they don't scan the serial numbers. So Cooper could have spent the money and unless he passed one at a bank where a teller manually looked up the number it would have never been noticed.

We really need to shore up discussion on the money because it is the key to almost all theories about what happened to Cooper. For example, someone mentioned the possibility Cooper made away with some of the money and some was lost the night of the jump. Could not have happened according to the condition the money was found in. The rubber bands would have rotted long before the bundles were found on the beach, meaning there would not have been bundles if the money was in the environment unprotected.

[Orange1 0]

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But the treasury routinely has to destroy currency when it reaches the end of its useful life. That time frame is usually within 5-7 years (now I could be off a bit here, I'm just going off of feel of what I know... I spent time on wheresgeorge.com). Most of the Cooper bills were 69 issue if I recall correctly.

Life expectancy of paper currency:

http://www.frbservices.org/help/coin_and_currency.html#a5

So it is 2 years for a $20 bill.

That life expectancy will be based on the frequency of circulation (how many times they get passed from hand to hand) - which is why the lifespan is much shorter for the smaller denominations than the bigger ones. If the bills were new or newish when Cooper got them (Ckret - can you shed any light on this?) and kept somewhere for a while where they would not degrade (i.e. not in water/buried in wet soil!) their life would be much longer.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BGill 0]

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But the treasury routinely has to destroy currency when it reaches the end of its useful life. That time frame is usually within 5-7 years (now I could be off a bit here, I'm just going off of feel of what I know... I spent time on wheresgeorge.com). Most of the Cooper bills were 69 issue if I recall correctly.

Life expectancy of paper currency:

http://www.frbservices.org/help/coin_and_currency.html#a5

So it is 2 years for a $20 bill.

That life expectancy will be based on the frequency of circulation (how many times they get passed from hand to hand) - which is why the lifespan is much shorter for the smaller denominations than the bigger ones. If the bills were new or newish when Cooper got them (Ckret - can you shed any light on this?) and kept somewhere for a while where they would not degrade (i.e. not in water/buried in wet soil!) their life would be much longer.

Even if Cooper waited a period of time (5 or 10 years for example) before spending any of the bills and kept them in pristine condition, the moment he spends them they are re-introduced into circulation, thus starting the clock on whatever life expectancy they will have.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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it all had to be manually scanned... when they go through US Treasury, its to look for counterfeiting and they don't scan the serial numbers.

The way I see it then, a better way to articulate the statement is that no bank teller ever matched a 20 with the list the FBI had handed out. It's likely a safe assumption that many people looked at first, but not too likely that a nationwide hunt for a matching serial number ever took place.

Geographic location would also dictate the level of effort by bank tellers... while I'm sure if someone walked in with 200k in 20s, someone would look into it, if someone came in every other day with 5 notes to deposit and they live in Texas or something, maybe those tellers never check. If so, what from preventing him from setting up multiple bank accounts at different banks?

I still don't think that's what happened, but it could have, and that's the important thing.

In other words, the fact that no one ever matched a 20 they had in their hands with one on the list doesn't really prove that some bills did not make it into circulation.

If today's average life span on those is 2 years, then certainly within 5 years, many of the bills that had entered circulation would have been destroyed... and by that time, perhaps the case wasn't really on people's mind?

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We really need to shore up discussion on the money because it is the key to almost all theories about what happened to Cooper.

I agree with you 100%.

I will start a summary of what we know so far, if I miss anything or get anything wrong, please post... other insights obviously welcome.

1. If Cooper spent ransom money, we know he at the very least did not spend all of it.
2. The jump occured 8:11-8:15pm Wednesday Nov 24, 1971, the money was found Sunday 2-10-1980. This span is 8 years, 2 months, and 18 days, or exactly 3,000 days excluding Sunday the 10th.
3. "Those in the know" said at the time that the money was there less than a year. Our range is therefore 2-10-79 to 2-10-80.
4. It's guaranteed the money arrived on the beach well after 1974 due to strata in the sand.
5. The rubber bands were still on the straps of cash, but they crumbled to the touch.
6. We've all seen pictures, the money was really weathered, a lot of it was brittle and the FBI actually went back to the location and found pieces of the money. Those pieces broke off while the money sat in the sand, not before.
7. According to the news reports, Harold Ingram was preparing a fire when little Brian ran up and said "wait a minute daddy"... he raked the sand and there was the money, three bundles.
8. Approximately 290 bills were recovered.
9. The FBI sealed off the area for days to comb the beach, but they never found more than the small pieces that had crumbled off the 3 stacks.
10. The bills appeared to be in the same order as when they gave them to Cooper but they could not verify this.
11. Most of the weathering was around the edges of the stacks, the bills on the inside were in the best condition. The edges of the bills were worn all the way around.
12. Because of the relatively good condition of the money considering 8 years in the elements and the less than a year timeline of it sitting on the beach, it's conceivable the money had some level of protection for up to 7 years.

A picture of the money, along with several of the broken pieces that were recovered are pictured. Thanks to Ckret for providing the picture (which is available to the public).

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I'm going to answer my own post a little...

pieces of the money found on site, the money was breaking apart. The rubber bands crumbled to the touch.

Therefore, the money was not crumbling nor were the rubber bands crumbling BEFORE arriving on the beach. The money was in the same order it was in when they handed it to Cooper, it's not like he restacked these... they were the original bundles.

7 years... no crumbling
within 1 year, crumbling

My question is, what causes stuff to get brittle so fast? We discussed ozone, but perhaps constant water/drying + warm/cold flucuations?

I'm asking because the answer might provide a clue as to the prior 7 years.

[JohnRich 4]

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Is that 90 meters per second?
No way would a bag of money fall at 90 m/s

Yes, 90m/s. This is why I also ran the calculation at 50m/s. If you still think this is too high, then we can revisit this.

I too think that 90 m/s is too high for a reasonable expected speed - that's about 295 feet/sec, or 200 mph. Our human freefall is about 175 feet/sec, or 120 mph. I don't think even a briefcase, or any kind of sack, would fall at 200 mph. 50 meters/sec is the equivalent of human freefall speed. Even that may be too much.

What was the weight of the money again? 20 lbs.?

We have at least one thread in this forum discussing the freefall speed of helmets (link here) that have fallen off of heads. Those speeds have even been recorded with the instruments contained inside the helmets. Some of them rather heavy helmets because of attached camera equipment. Going from memory without looking it up, I recall those speeds generally to be in the range of about 50-75 mph.

There is also a thread about freefalling bullets (link here), where an experiment was done (by me) releasing various sized bullets in freefall. Those objects have a lot of mass and little surface area for drag, and even the heaviest bullet, a .45 slug, fell at only about 120 mph.

We also have occasional pumpkin jumps on Halloween, where skydivers try and catch a pumpkin in freefall. I've done a couple of those. Even a big pumpkin only falls at about 150 mph tops.

Then there was also once a jump I did with an in-air water balloon fight. Water balloons go "up" relative to a skydiver, so you have to get underneath them to release your package for a chance to hit another. A water balloon too is a relatively heavy object for its size, with low wind resistance. Yet they fall slower than 120 mph.

Then there are things like bag-lock malfunctions, where a 10-lb. canopy trapped inside the bag container, falls to earth.

So, because of these examples, I seriously doubt a sack of money would fall faster than about 120 mph, at most. Probably less.

It would be easy to make up some fake stacks of money using plain paper of similar weight, and stuff it into several different types of makeshift bags, then release them in freefall over open countryside, with a Pro-track recording altimeter inside, to determine the fall rates. That time-in-air number could then be used to calculate freefall wind drift.

This could be as simple as putting 20 lbs. (or whatever the money weight was) of old newspapers in a pillow case, and throwing it out to see what happens. Wrap the Pro-track in bubble-wrap to protect it, but leave the ends open for the air sensors.

Unfortunately, the land around my drop zone has become too populated over the last few years to play with these kinds of experiments any more. Some of you desert jumpers have the open spaces for it...

And of course, the importance of this here in this thread, is that the slower it falls, the more wind drift it will encounter during its fall. I would say that the forward throw from the exit speed, if it became detached from D.B., would be negligible.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

I’m doing some research, and there is something I need to know.

Did Cooper request V-23 or did the pilot(s) select V-23?

I have seen so much stuff (mostly on the Internet) in the last 20 years that either downright state that Cooper requested/demanded V-23 or implies it. I’ve also seen information that says the pilots selected V-23 because of the low altitude demanded by Cooper and the original destination demand (Mexico).

Also, did he state a location in Mexico in his “Fly this plane to _____” demand?

Please answer this based on your information and if possible tell me what the source is.

BTW: I, for one (I’m sure there are others), appreciate your efforts and your patience. For the first time in a long time (I’ve been at this since about 1974) I feel like I can get some factual data to work with. This thread has re-energized me to start back up where I left off when I decided that the “facts of the case” were totally distorted by the myth.


Thanks so much,

Sluggo_Monster

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[SafecrackingPLF 0]

JohnRich,

Thank you.

That's very helpful. If the speed slows, it certainly makes it more possible for the bag to land intact if it hits solid ground (my comment about it ripping open assumed a ground landing since there aren't many trees in the area in question).

If it did come off Cooper at exit, there might be cords flapping in the wind (knot around his waist came undone) which would increase the drag as well.

The weight of the money was probably between 21 and 22 pounds depending on the weight of the canvas bag. I think it was packed fairly tight... I know it's not a bowling ball, but I figured it would drop about as fast as a human with their limbs outstretched...

So if we slow it down two things happen: bag has more chance to stay intact on ground impact, and it has more time in the air... but since you're suggesting its wind resistence is high, that would mean it's forward throw would slow significantly, probably close to a dead stop by the time it hits the ground... it has to travel 2 miles forward and get pushed 1 mile east while in the air

[377 22]

"7 years... no crumbling
within 1 year, crumbling"

If the above assumption is correct, I wonder if the bundles might have been underwater. They would be shielded from both UV and ozone if submerged.

Ozone concentrations are usually highest in sunny smoggy places like LA, not so high in cloudy rural areas with lower NOX levels. Ozone will permeate any gas porous material like a fabric bag.

UV will fade colored ink. It is hard to tell from the computer image if the bills were faded. If they were exposed to the sun, one side of the bundle would be more faded than the other.

I have noticed that when cellulose products such as paper and cardboard are in contact with dirt, leaves or other organic matter, they get attacked by bugs and microbes which eat the stuff from the edges inward. Paper or cardboard submerged in salt water doesnt show the same pattern. I dont have experience with cellulose products submerged in fresh water. The money shows that "inward from the edges" pattern suggesting contact with soil or leaves or other above water organic material. I can't tell how much of that occured before it was deposited where it was found.

The money is the only piece of evidence on the ground which has been conclusively linked to the jump. The door placard might be, and probably is, but it could have come off many miles from Coopers exit point.

If we can't get from our estimated exit point to where the money was found, using natural transport (wind, water etc) , we need to move the exit point.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Thanks for the breakdown, the only thing I can think of is a clarification; I know what your saying when you write, "the money is in the same order as when it was handed to Cooper" but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled.

Does anyone have $200,000 they can loan out for 3000 days. Of course for testing purposes only, I'll give it back when were done.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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If we can't get from our estimated exit point to where the money was found, using natural transport (wind, water etc) , we need to move the exit point.

With all due respect, we can only move the jump point so much. If the pressure bump was recorded prior to 2015, then a jump point of 2018 doesn't fit. Also, we went out on a limb with the 2015... the oscillation was recorded at 2012 and there's a high probability the two occured simultaneously.

If we can get around the timeline and put the jump up to 2019, then we can get the money on/adjacent to the Columbia... so in that regard, you're correct. The jump point to get him right on the Columbia would actually be in Oregon due to the 225/235 winds, not that far into Oregon, but at least right on top of it (if he splattered)...

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Oh! Ckret,

One other request...

Can we get the next few pages of the RTTY transcript that you posted earlier. I'd love to have the whole thing.

Thanx,

Sluggo_Monster

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[Ckret 0]

Neither requested Victor 23. The pilots and NWA flight operations wanted to fly out to the coast and where waiting for clearance to do so. It was not until just before takeoff that they were cleared through Sacramento via Victor 23.

Cooper originally stated they could land anywhere in Mexico but after discussion he agreed to Reno. Of course we know now Cooper could have cared less because he wasn't going to be on the plane anywhere near any of those locations.

This next point is a crucial clue, Cooper did not care which flight path 305 took. In fact when they were on the ground in Seattle Cooper was told there was a delay in takeoff because the crew had to file their flight plan (this was after fueling but they were still having discussions on which was the best flight path).

Cooper's reply was, "It doesn't matter, they can file it in the air."

[dumstuntzz 0]

Cooper's reply was"It doesnt matter ,they can file it in the air"


can one presume from his statement that cooper had at least a rudimentary understanding of pilot procedures and thus may have been a pilot as well??

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Does anyone have $200,000 they can loan out for 3000 days. Of course for testing purposes only, I'll give it back when were done.

You made me laugh Ckret. I never knew you had such a strong sense of humor... I should have known before now, but maybe I'm a little "slow".

Actually though, what's preventing the treasury from allowing the FBI to use old about-to-be-destroyed bills for testing decay in various conditions? Maybe they could stamp each bill with ink that says "void" on it... they must destroy hundreds of thousands of bills a day (or at least an awful lot). If worn bills wouldn't yield an accurate result, they could supply just the materials without the anti-counterfeit strips in them (thus they could never be used to successfully counterfeit bills)... they could print VOID on those too.

I realize it's asking a lot... but on principle, it would seem like someone somewhere could make it happen.

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Cooper's reply was, "It doesn't matter, they can file it in the air."

Well, there goes the "he had a car waiting for him at the landing area" theory.

Can you imagine if they had gone out to sea? This would be a totally different case (and I don't think he'd have a snowball's chance at surviving in the middle of the Pacific)