SafecrackingPLF 0 #1576 January 31, 2008 Thanks Ckret. I could have figured as much... USAF most likely would do like 377 suggested, keep that stuff top secret. They wouldn't want it getting out, why risk a "breach" (like the story about the FBI agent). Sluggo... thanks for the research regarding St. Helens. The first time I went up there was in 86. It doesn't look anything like that 20 yrs later... it was desolate, and this was five years later... complete destruction. I knew that some ash was in Clark Co, but not much AT ALL. I doubt the 8 to 9 feet... maybe at the base of the mountain. Like your map showed, it followed the curve of the wind stream. The windstream is almost always SE coastal winds... and when these shift is when there's a storm of somekind, but the wind stream takes the wind north and then it will curve back down, just like the ash path shows. Since the mountain blew on the north face, most everything blew AWAY from Clark Co. Due to wind, even if the South face blew, it would not have been as bad as Yakima. Now, if the banks only have 200k, the obvious thought is Cooper works for SeaFirst or a similar bank.... BUT, he'd also know the bills have been pre-photographed.... What a detail! Ckret, thank you... I never knew that! They even had the act down as much as to have odd numbered stacks!!! Genius. I heard nowadays they put GPS trackers in the stacks... that must make your job a lot easier tracking them down... good thing for Cooper they didn't have anything like that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,357 #1577 January 31, 2008 Quote Yes, they had more than $200,000. Hmmmm, tempting. I've jumped 26 ft conicals before. Even got a stand-up landing out of one. JerryBaumchen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJack 1 #1578 January 31, 2008 QuoteYes, they had more than $200,000. It's interesting that Cooper asked for just $200,000. This amount was not so bulky that he couldn't carry all of it on a jump and it just happened to be in Seattle ready to go. Inside information? Hmmm... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #1579 January 31, 2008 QuoteI believe it was 377 that asked about Mt. St. Helens. I will tell you my understanding... most of the ash blew into eastern washington. Yakima looked as though it was nightime it was so thick. There was ash in Clark County, but the winds and the direction of the blast blew it north and east. It was the north face of St. Helens that blew (see pic). I watched the St. Helens eruption from Vancouver WA, where I was living at the time. The Vancouver/Camas/Washougal area got very little ash. Most of it headed East/NE. There were flooding problems, but none that I know of in that local area. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1580 January 31, 2008 QuoteThe money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this. Searching for a different piece of information I came upon this ---. Norjak - states "the money was to have come from one bank, but as the hijacker's time deadlilne approached, the crew was told that the money was coming from several Seattle banks." Dead or Alive? - states it just as you did above. Note the underscored words: This is how things get twisted ... I missed it and have always said the money came from several bank - not true. Now for my big mistake - I have stated that Pyramid Life underwrote the N.W. Policy, but it was Globe Indemity....which is owned by a congomerate with no way to verify the 1971 status. Sometimes it pays to go back and check your source...I miss things and the FBI can miss things too...remember the words Special Forces. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #1581 January 31, 2008 Quote1800 feet forward throw... would this apply to a money bag as well? I would expect the money to have slightly less forward throw. Less weight and more air resistence per pound than a normal skydiver. If he loses the money during freefall, where the money lands is only affected by the time in the air. It would have the same trajectory as Cooper, but if Cooper did not pull it would drift further. If Cooper pulled it would land somewhere between the exit point and where Cooper landed (unless Cooper pulled at 300ft AGL). QuoteMy estimations of how far he can drift are generous... they assume he travels the same speed as the wind and not a hair slower. Which would be correct after about 10 seconds of freefall. The only thing you are missing is the forward throw. This would only make a difference of max 2000 ft from your original estimates. So you have two choices, a) the flight line/exit point are way off or b) Someone moved the money after it reached the ground. I am more for the someone moved it. I am sure the FBI/Airforce put a lot more effort than DZ.com trying to locate the exit point. Shame about the radar though. They probably never thought to look for Coopers echo. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #1582 January 31, 2008 Or (get your tinfoil hats on boys and girls) ... the miltary folks who worked on the radar tapes and data figured out exactly where Cooper got out of the airplane and did not disclose that info to the FBI as a matter of National Security ... or maybe perhaps for other, personal reasons?Zing Lurks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #1583 January 31, 2008 So the rest of the $$$ is hidden on the grassy knoll ?? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #1584 January 31, 2008 There is no way Cooper could have known Seafirst bank would provide the money, most all of the national banks could have been tapped for this. It was essentially a cash loan from SeaFirst to NWA. The reason SeaFirst provided the money was that NWA most likely had accounts with them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dumstuntzz 0 #1585 January 31, 2008 i just got an email from dan poynter. he believes the 26 ' navy conical rate of descent with 230 lb exit weight would be over 20 feet per second.(his exact words were "ouch")that means that at sea level rate of descent would be over 1200 feet per minute.if cooper did a hop n pop (not likely) he would have been under canopy for under 8 minutes and 20 seconds ,not 10 minutes as is being thrown out here.this will affect the landing area. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1586 January 31, 2008 Therefore, if it was 1200 ft/min, it's even LESS likely that he can land in a tributary. My estimation included an assumption that the wind speed at 7,000 ft = wind speed at 10,000 ft. Ckret only gave us up to 7,000 ft. 23 mph @ 7k. 29 mph @ 3k-5k 23 mph @ 1k-2k 17 mph @ surface That is what Carr posted, please correct if I made an error. Instead of spending a full minute dropping 1k, he would only spend 50 sec. 23 mph = 0.00639 miles per second 10k to 5k = 250 seconds descending Miles traveled = 1.6 miles 29 mph = 0.00806 miles per second 5k to 3k = 150 sec Miles Traveled = 1.209 3k to 1k = 100 sec Miles Traveled = 0.639 1k to 0 (though target zone is at 280 ft) = 50 sec 17 mph = 0.00472 miles per second Miles Traveled = 0.236 miles @ 10,000 ft under canopy, total miles = 1.6 + 1.209 + 0.639 + 0.236 = 3.68 total miles possible There's some loss of accuracy due to converting the wind speed to mph from the kts originally mentioned. Still, the point wasn't to show a precise landing point, but rather to evaluate the feasibility of landing in an area. As it is, 3.68 miles at a 235 deg heading, still allows Cooper to reach the perimeter of the target zone, LC7. It's still not likely, it's flat and consists of a farm, and he not only has to break ankles, he has to die there when he lands. Interestingly, if you look at the FBI map of the suspected landing area that was put together in Jan 72 (posted on pg 47 of the thread), points A to B was the likely drift line of Cooper. Point B is roughly 3.77 miles from point A. The elevation of point B is 680 ft. Point A was derived not by using the eastern most flight path possible, but by the western most path possible and point B was derived not by the most western flight path possible but the eastern most possible. This means there's a full mile added to the drift distance. They figured there would be 2300 feet of forward throw. I believe this is what was posted by Speedy. Someone a lot smarter than I put together that FBI landing map, I believe it was someone who had the expertise that you all enjoy. If you really want me to go over the top with this, I can throw in the known wind direction at each elevation and create an approximate drift line... due to the amount of 225 deg winds, it might eliminate this possibility all together, but I wouldn't know without really looking. Edit: Actually, scratch that... the experts who put together the FBI landing area map calculated the drift line using the average wind vector and came away with an average line of 233.544 deg... so hardly enough angle to change anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #1587 January 31, 2008 ATC radar info is no big deal but if USAF air defense intercept radar was used, don't expect to see raw data released to the public, especially after 911. Many radar operators have no idea that jumpers' echos can be seen and would dispute it if you asked them. It is possible that nobody even thought to look very carefully for a Cooper echo because nobody thought he could relect a radar signal. I wish the FBI could ask the USAF to examine ALL their radar tapes (intercept as well as ATC) telling them what to look for, and see if they can find a Cooper exit echo. Cooper's exit point isnt a national security issue but USAF air defense radar coverage, resolution and fighter intercept tactics are, especially after terrorists have revived the relevance of hostile aircraft in domestic airspace.2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #1588 January 31, 2008 Quote So the rest of the $$$ is hidden on the grassy knoll ?? "The grassy knoll" was a red herring; The shooter was in the storm drain at the curb. Didn't you watch The X Files?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #1589 January 31, 2008 Quotei just got an email from dan poynter. he believes the 26 ' navy conical rate of descent with 230 lb exit weight would be over 20 feet per second.(his exact words were "ouch")that means that at sea level rate of descent would be over 1200 feet per minute.if cooper did a hop n pop (not likely) he would have been under canopy for under 8 minutes and 20 seconds ,not 10 minutes as is being thrown out here.this will affect the landing area. Wasn't the exit altitude 10,000' above sea level? The terrain beneath the exit was well above sea level making his canopy time far less. jon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1590 January 31, 2008 Elevation is dependent upon where you think he landed. 800 ft is the most it would be (orginal FBI landing area), if you think he made it onto that farm and died there, then 280ft. Calculations have been made to give the most flexibility to Cooper & he still can't manage to die upon impact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #1591 January 31, 2008 Quote So the rest of the $$$ is hidden on the grassy knoll ?? Yes, Joe DiMaggio used the money to buy a sniper rifle so that he could kill the man who was seeing Marilyn Monroe. Then, he buried the rest of the money on the grassy knoll. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dumstuntzz 0 #1592 January 31, 2008 thats why i said he would be under canopy for UNDER 8 min 20 sec.(i.e. less than).. rate of descent "over 20 ft per second" would apply ( i assume ) at sea level .at higher altitudes rate of descent is faster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #1593 January 31, 2008 The point isn't that we're 100% totally accurate... that's impossible since we do not know how far Cooper fell before deploying his chute... the point is that we error on the conservative side. Quoteat higher altitudes rate of descent is faster Exactly, thinner air makes for less resistance... still, 8 min 20 sec, or up to 10 min... he still can barely land on the farm & the timeline of the jump is periously OVER or on the 8:15 mark. And for some reason, the FBI & NWA was convinced the jump occured at about 8:11... their map factored in +/- 1 minute... not +/- 4 min. There's a reason for this, communication tapes & Jan 6th re-creation of the jump from the aft stairs is my guess as to where this number came from. I say he landed near or in the original search zone and was able to get out of there by 6 am. Ckret, when were the first planes/choppers sent out on the search?? Cooper lands at about 8:20 pm... certainly by 9:20 he is on foot. If you believe he could have his briefcase with him, then he likely has road flares that would supply him with a light source to navigate the woods... he lights one because he's unaware that anyone will know where he jumped, and he assumes no one will fly overhead and see his bright light (and my guess is that he's correct in this assumption). If he heard something coming overhead, he could possibly shield or cover the flare... I'd be interested hearing ideas on how he might do this if he felt it was needed. By 6:00 am, he's had 9 full hours of time to leave the area. If he makes his way to any road, he might be able to average a rate of foot speed of 1 mph for 9 hours or a total distance of 9 miles. Obviously I do not think he'd go in a straight line, but he could travel far enough to get out of the search area by dawn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1594 February 1, 2008 Quote i just got an email from dan poynter. he believes the 26 ' navy conical rate of descent with 230 lb exit weight would be over 20 feet per second.(his exact words were "ouch")that means that at sea level rate of descent would be over 1200 feet per minute.if cooper did a hop n pop (not likely) he would have been under canopy for under 8 minutes and 20 seconds ,not 10 minutes as is being thrown out here.this will affect the landing area I wish someone would go to the horses mouth for this infornation 26 or 28...the information Cossey sent to me shows an NB6 and NB8. Cossey states in Tosaw's book that it was a 28 canopy and the information I have (by Cossey) states that a 28 will fit in a NB6 - now all I can do is report what I read and I understand little of this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #1595 February 1, 2008 Quote Quote i just got an email from dan poynter. he believes the 26 ' navy conical rate of descent with 230 lb exit weight would be over 20 feet per second.(his exact words were "ouch")that means that at sea level rate of descent would be over 1200 feet per minute.if cooper did a hop n pop (not likely) he would have been under canopy for under 8 minutes and 20 seconds ,not 10 minutes as is being thrown out here.this will affect the landing area I wish someone would go to the horses mouth for this infornation 26 or 28...the information Cossey sent to me shows an NB6 and NB8. Cossey states in Tosaw's book that it was a 28 canopy and the information I have (by Cossey) states that a 28 will fit in a NB6 - now all I can do is report what I read and I understand little of this. Jo -- Not really certain you understand who Poynter is, but he is one of the best authorities in the WORLD on parachutes, their design and their usage in a wide range of fields. He has written numerous books on the subject.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJack 1 #1596 February 1, 2008 Here's something to think about concerning the flight path of the 727. Is the data Ckret supplied simply based on the flight planned route? If so it would be a straight line drawn between each VOR on the route the aircraft was flying. An actual airway is 4 miles to each side of this line. So an airway is actually 8 miles across. More fuel for the fire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #1597 February 1, 2008 Quote Quote So the rest of the $$$ is hidden on the grassy knoll ?? Yes, Joe DiMaggio used the money to buy a sniper rifle so that he could kill the man who was seeing Marilyn Monroe. Then, he buried the rest of the money on the grassy knoll. We have all been looking in the wrong place. Cooper disappeared in mid air. The best minds in the FBI and in skydiving have found no evidence to the contrary. There is a fourth dimension. I have missing socks to prove it. The USAF won't release the radar tapes because they show the UFO that kidnapped Cooper. Case closed.2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #1598 February 1, 2008 The area on the map I posted was derived from analysis from the radar data. The rest of the flight path would have been from VOR to VOR Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #1599 February 1, 2008 Quote Quote Quote So the rest of the $$$ is hidden on the grassy knoll ?? Yes, Joe DiMaggio used the money to buy a sniper rifle so that he could kill the man who was seeing Marilyn Monroe. Then, he buried the rest of the money on the grassy knoll. We have all been looking in the wrong place. Cooper disappeared in mid air. The best minds in the FBI and in skydiving have found no evidence to the contrary. There is a fourth dimension. I have missing socks to prove it. The USAF won't release the radar tapes because they show the UFO that kidnapped Cooper. Case closed. Stealth chase Twotter & air to air transfer...and yeah he bought his beer...didn't ya Guru! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guru312 0 #1600 February 1, 2008 Quote ...didn't ya Guru! I shudda known! If anyone was going to break the air to air code it would be you. I got snatched up by my girlfriend who was flying a J-3 with a banner hook.Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
