D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[stratostar 5]

Jack,

You don't know Jerry, and it seems you don't know anything about his history.

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Excuse me, but, I have never claimed to be an expert in skydiving.

10 jumps, in the scheme of things, is not a lot of jumps.

But, IMO, it is 10 more jumps than Duane Weber.

And you sound like one those types you meet at the local watering hole where some loud mouth drunk is telling all the "current real skydivers" all about skyJJJJJUmping and how you do it.

Yet everyone who is not a retard, in the bar knows the dude is full of shit and may have only seen it done once, or been dropped S/L in the 70's.

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During my jumps, I have learned, that the Cooper jump, was not that difficult of a jump.

Oh really, are you making this statement as an expert? So during your TEN jump experiance you have spent your time learning about round parachute types and their use, night jumps, winds aloft, navigation, night jumps, jet AC OPs, aft stairs, Night Jet Jumps (pre GPS) jumping with payloads, and an assortment of other special training and
knowledge it would take to pull off that jump, you claim "that the Cooper jump, was not that difficult of a jump.

That statement alone IMHO proves you don't even have a clue what the hell your talking about, or your just trolling for a good bite.

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After all, he is just chuckling somewhere, now isn't he.

I'm 100% sure he is laughing his ass off, and I bet he spilled his drink with the little umbrella in it, he's sip'n on poolside and reading your post on his laptop Jerry sent him for X-mas, I mean after all, when you got "bread to spread" you can get high speed wifi in that part of the world these days, dude!

Hay I gotta run and catch a plane now, got to go get my BOOGIE on.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Orange1 0]

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Who's to say, cooper didn't have someone on the ground, talking him down?

well, i dunno about logistics of that back then but it did remind me of Jo saying

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The statement that Duane made in 1979 "That's where Cooper walked out of the woods" I replied "How would you know that" and he says "Maybe I was the one on the ground".

which always sounded a bit odd to me... but if Weber was the one on the ground and someone else actually jumped...? (Seeing as so far there does not seem to be a shred of evidence that Weber had ever jumped out a plane in his life) Though if 2 people split the money it make it even more strange that other than that in the river, none of the cash was ever found. Oh, I'm getting a bit lost in speculation here

But I do firmly believe that there is a poster in this thread (not Jo) who is a lot closer to this whole episode than most people think...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[steve1 5]

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[

After all, he is just chuckling somewhere, now isn't he.
..................................................................
I really think he is laying tangled in his chute at the bottom of the Columbia River. I haven't read all the posts to this, but didn't they find some money in that river? As far as anyone knows none of the rest of the money was found. Wasn't it marked money?
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So, anyone who says, that Cooper wouldn't know where he was, and couldn't land uninjured, is trying to make the jump more difficult than it is.

...............................................................

If he did jump into the Columbia Gorge (West of Portland), I can't think of a worse place to land at night. Really tall timber surrounding a river that is deep, swift, and wide. Very, very steep hillsides. I'd sure hate to make a night jump into a hell hole like that. I can't think of a worse D-Z to make a night jump into. So, if that was the place, I don't think he made it out unhurt and I really think he easily could have died in that water. I've jumped jets before and made a lot of night jumps under a t-10 and even 7-TU. But I'll tell you, that jump would have been extrememly dangerous and scary as hell. I doubt if anyone would purposely plan a jump into that place. Not even James Bond!...Steve1

[flybounce 0]

wow!

i've been away too long.

sooo much.

i can think of some worse places, but evidence points to north battleground or farther north. the only explanation of the money where found of is a guy who made it (unless a steelhead swam it upstream and deposited one pack of three bundles. drainage basins being what they are.) could mayfeild plan and execute something like this?

no? not smart enough (financial genius with nothing but hobby jobs since being a 7 up driver{36 years ago}, worth less than $0 until moving to sheridan and putting up a building for cash and getting a twin engine beech?)? experience (over 6000 jumps - 1 he'll never admit to.)? reckless (only 2 convictions for others lives, 11 with no convictions)? wouldn't threaten people for just money (only one conviction)? no stealing (only 1 conviction)? you're right teddy's just a pipe dream. funny thing him lying to those investigators about it and him lookin a lot like the schaffner sketch. just coincidences.

as for the mean guys attacking the lack of skydiving experience, find some attacks with some legs, weber schill, them dogs don't hunt. btw, talked to a smoke jumper out of winthrop who at the time was the most experienced s.j. at the time. good man. said he wouldn't do it, but no prob. come to think of it, teddy contradicted what he said to fbi, he said no prob. does he have enough experience to comment on the jump?

on this jump, i think he knows more than any of us.

and jo? i didn't say a bar. you? two drinks and one bar ever? yeah right!

i gotta go talk to the ether er, Easter bunny now. by.

[jackwilson 0]

Hey Steve;

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Sounds like you are quite an experienced diver.

If you do time the jump, ie, speed of plane, route, time elapsed from Seattle, etc, it appears that Cooper jumped about 30 miles north of the Columbia river, where the money was found in 1980. So, that is about 10 minutes difference in flying time.

Yes, the money was marked. That is, all the serial numbers were written down.

So, how did three packs get 30 miles further south of the dropzone, become buried, no sign of a chute, the other money, and most importantly, the three bundles were touching each other. It's almost impossible.

The FBI spent countless hours on where Cooper jumped.

They reviewed radar reports, timing, speed, etc, and the FBI, FAA, etc, all thought Cooper jumped around the Lewis River area, up by Lake Merwin.

Of course, it is all speculation, and based upon the change in trim of the plane, caused by Cooper leaving the steps, and the wind ripping through the airplane, and cockpit.

Another possibility, is that Cooper jumped later, or earlier, than projected.

Maybe, the plane turning, caused the steps to slam shut, versus Cooper leaving.

On one show, a man duplicated Cooper's jump, but, simply, fell backward, and in this method, it lessened the impact on the airstairs, since the weight of the jumper was slowly eliminated from the aftstairs, versus all at once.

Either way, the area around where the money was found, does have quite a bit of flatland around it. Swampland, as it is called. THe spot, is north of the Columbia, actually in WA, in an area where the Columbia meets the Willamette, on the north bank.

I google earthed it, and the there is ample flat land, just northeast of the banks of the Columbia. I think the address is 12200 NW Lower River RD. Vancouver, WA, if I remember right.

Who knows, did Cooper jump up at Lake Merwin, down by the Columbia, or further south, in the flatlands of the Willamette Valley, and some designated dropzones in the area.

For the record, the area where Cooper is thought to have jumped, had "two" designated dropzones, used by local jumpers. There was also an airplane "beacon" not far from the projected dz.

So, Cooper could have easily known where he was, in my opinion.

Of course, I not as qualified as other's, but, I have asked other's, as well as the experts on the KOIN report, who all 3 stated they believed that Cooper could have landed safely.

Thanks Steve, for sharing for skydiving expertise.

Since I heard about this case, I always thought, it was a local jumper, with at least 100 jumps, and probably a criminal record.

For the record, I do think it is possible Cooper had help on the ground, someone to pick him up, or communicate with him when to jump.

Then, again, on the KOIN report, both experts, said that Cooper could have easily "come" down within 5 miles of a pre-determined area.

One expert, had 8,000 jumps, and knew the terrain.

So, I leave the details, and likihood of a successful jump to him.

However, Steve, I do agree with your premise.

An inexperienced diver, imo, would be asking for trouble, jumping in that area, at night, etc.

Then again, an inexperienced diver, would have been found, laying in the forest, in a tree, dead, if he didn't have the expertise and experience.

To think, that a man could come up with an original idea like this, and be an amateur, is a stretch.

No, IMO, this was not Cooper's first night jump, and I'll bet that Cooper spent the previous week, memorizing the terrain, timing, dz's, backup dz's, probably in a rented plane, or on ground, while preparing for what could be the end of his life, or freedom, if caught.

BTW: While the money was marked, even the FBI admitted finding one of those twenties in circulation was a needle in a haystack, given only 10,000 were given to Cooper, versus billions in circulation.

[skyjack71 0]

(Quote from Wilson)

"If you do time the jump, ie, speed of plane, route, time elapsed from Seattle, etc, it appears that Cooper jumped about 30 miles north of the Columbia river, where the money was found in 1980. So, that is about 10 minutes difference in flying time."

Jo Weber has something to say:

I hope to be going out to WA. this yr. if my health permits - and I will have locals to document the areas I have maintained he jumped into and how he got to the area he pointed out to me and to the Columbia. On that sentimental journey in 1979 he basically took me on his venture - I just didn't see the significance of what he was showing me (all of this from a man who didn't look at a map the whole time we were there and knew the land.)

No one seems to remember about a boat that was missing on the Columbia west of Washougal.


(Quote from Wilson)

"Either way, the area around where the money was found, does have quite a bit of flatland around it. Swampland, as it is called. THe spot, is north of the Columbia, actually in WA, in an area where the Columbia meets the Willamette, on the north bank."

Jo Weber has something to say:

You have absolutely no concept of the area the money was found in - have you physically been there? Well, I have.


(Quote from Wilson)

"For the record, the area where Cooper is thought to have jumped, had "two" designated dropzones, used by local jumpers. There was also an airplane "beacon" not far from the projected dz."

Jo Weber has something to say:

Have you not read about the airstrip that was pointed out to me by Duane? And the tower?
And the beacon?

You don't know how much experience Duane had -or what I have connect him to - why don't you try Pyramid Lake. Try South America, Casa Grande and stolen planes and smuggling. Maybe I am blowing smoke and maybe I am not.

Jo Weber.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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and jo? i didn't say a bar. you? two drinks and one bar ever? yeah right!

i gotta go talk to the ether er, Easter bunny now. by.

Fly Bounce you are going too far - DO NOT INSULT ME AGAIN. You do not know me at all.
If you state something like that again be prepared to state when and where. You are the one who writes as though he were drunk with the gibberish you post.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[steve1 5]

You are much better informed on this than I am. Thanks for the info. For some reason, I kept thinking he jumped just East of Portland, but like you say noone probably knows for sure where.

I wonder what the weather was like that night. Was there much of a moon and stars. That would have made spotting and the jump a lot easier. I should go back and read more of the earlier posts. Maybe this was already discussed....Steve1

[quade 4]

Question . . . something that I've always kind of wondered.

Is there any proof that D.B. Cooper actually jumped?

Everybody assumes he did because some money was found along the river, but nobody actually saw him jump. What if the jump was just misdirection? What if he tied one sack of money to a parachute, tossed it out the back the then simply hid somewhere in the plane, making his getaway later after it had landed?

By all accounts, it was a pretty shitty night and location to jump anyway.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NickDG 23]

I mentioned this one up-board but it ties into what you're saying. Some think there never was a D.B. Cooper. The belief is the flight crew, including the ticket agent, were all in on it. And it may explain why the surviving flight attendant doesn't want to talk about it . . .

That notwithstanding - I've seen many skydivers who couldn't find a well lighted DZ from the aircraft on night jumps even though they are right on top of it. And without good communication and a cooperating pilot I doubt Cooper had any idea where he was except in a general sense. It wasn't like he was telling the pilot, "five right," and "five left."

As for the weather, it's a moot point. If you understand micro meteorology you'll know the wind can be blowing like stink on one side of a ridge and be dead calm on the other. So we'll never know the actual conditions he landed in.

The rub in all this is if Cooper had been an experienced jumper I'm sure he would have brought a parachute on board with him. Instead he relied on whatever he was going to get. Would any of you do that? But he knew enough to ask for "sport" parachutes so this means he probably had at least a small amount of experience. Maybe he was one-hitch military jumper or a static line sport jumper who made it at least to freefall. I mean would someone who had never made a single parachute jump before even contemplate such a thing. Maybe, but not likely.

There was also one report I read that said the flight attendant looked through the curtains and she saw Cooper repacking one of the parachutes in the aisle. But I doubt she had ever seen a parachute actually packed before so that statement is kind of suspect.

NickD BASE 194

[skyjack71 0]

Quote from Nick
"There was also one report I read that said the flight attendant looked through the curtains and she saw Cooper repacking one of the parachutes in the aisle. But I doubt she had ever seen a parachute actually packed before so that statement is kind of suspect."

________________________________________________

verify the source of this information - I believe you will find it comes from another forum or other source, that is not reliable.

saw him tying something to himself. He had cut open one of the chutes and removed the cords to make a harness for the package. He was in the process of attaching it to himself. If you can find a reliable source - FBI file or book written by authorities, stating otherwise, please let me know.

I believe this is just another one of the things that has been added to the story over the yrs. So much over the yrs is only speculation or garnishment of the records and not fact.

I was told it was not impossible, but would not have been an easy task for a professional packer.

Respectfully, Jo Weber

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[jackwilson 0]

Steve:

Thanks for the response.

that is the thing about this case, there is just so much information out there, and it's hard to know what is true, and not true.

But, if you think about this logically, we know that Cooper and the pilot negotiated the route from Seattle to Reno.

Supposedly, the V-23 was the most used low altitude route from Seattle south, and I think Cooper knew it.

If you look at aeronautical charts, there are two turns, on V-23, before the plane reaches Portland.

The first turn, is about 50 miles north of Portland, near Toledo, and the second, is 20 or so miles north, at Battleground.

Why not use these turns, timing, etc, to know the general area of where you want to jump. ADd the knowledge of Lake Merwin, with it's lights at night, why couldn't Cooper know where he was?

Funny thing, that Cooper is thought to have jumped within a minute or two of Battleground. Did he use the plane's turns to determine his location?

Assuming the pilot stayed on course, and I think that is a safe assumption. I'll tell you why.

Commercial pilots, usually fly at much higher altitudes, as you are all much more educated about this, than I am.

But, for sake of argument. You are the pilot, have a guy with a bomb, and told to fly low, and below 10,000 feet, on a stormy night.

Aren't you going to stay on course?

Why would you risk straying, and possibly running into Mt St. Helens, Mt Hood, etc.?

Besides, based on my knowledge of navigation back then, commercial airlines had the ability to stay on course via instruments.

IN addition, the chase planes that followed the airliner, would have some knowledge of their whereabouts, when briefed.

NOt only that, but, the FBI spent a lot of time going over radar reports, to determine the general area of the jet.

The NW airlines expert, who spent a ton of time on this case, stated it was his belief that the airliner was on V-23 when Cooper jumped.

Exactly what spot on V-23 is unknown.

FTR: the FBI states the hijacked airliner was on v-23 as it went through Portland, and through the Willamette valley.

V-23 intersects with the Columbia river, about 2 miles west of the Portland Airport, or basically just east of I-5 and the Columbia river.

IMO, the reports of the plane being either west, or east, of the search area, are ways for people with agenda's, to gather strength for their theories.

In addition, the FBI had a helicopter follow the plane as it entered the Portland airspace, and they said the plane was basically on V-23, and went through Lake Oswego, and down the Willamette valley.

I could be wrong, but, if I had to guess, that plane was on v-23, as it went through Portland, and given the above, especially radar reports, I think it is a safe assumption.


Agree?

[jackwilson 0]

Quade:

Pretty good thought.

My initial reaction to this case, was, hey, the guy just hid on the plane, and escaped when it returned to Seattle for repairs.

When the plane landed in Reno, the FBI brought in dogs, and supposedly tore apart the plane.

Supposedly, the FBI took apart panels, etc, looked in the cargo, and through the suitcases which remained there.

While I agree it could have happened, it would have been a major boo-boo by the FBI.

As for whether Cooper could have escaped as the plane was coming to a stop in Reno. According to the tape on youtube, the FBI said they had the plane surrounded, and they say it was impossible.

I agree, that such a scenario could have happened.

You are correct, there are no witnesses to the jump.

However, the severe change in the "rate of flow" in the cockpit, which resulted from the airstairs violently hitting the fuelsage, convinced the FEds that Cooper had jumped at 8:13pm

Supposedly, this was duplicated in an experiment, and it is normally caused by someone exiting the aftstairs.

But, I do think it is possible.

[quade 4]

Pretty bad theory.

Like bad fiction, it was a dark and stormy night.

I don't know if you've ever been in a plane at night in stormy weather, but I can not in my wildest imagination believe he any a clue as to where he was without looking at the instrumentation and there is absloutely no indication that he possessed the knowledge or skill to do that nor any indication he was in the cockpit for any extended period of time.

Further, being in a plane is not like being in a car. There are no g-force side loads to clue you in. A two minute turn rate is almost imperceptable without looking outside the aircraft and even then only if you're out of the clouds.

In fact, skillfully done, it's possible to put an airplane completely upside down without any appreciable loads over 1g. Unskillfully flown VRF continued into IFR has had pilots exiting clouds upside down on numerous occasions -- usually with fatal results.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that sort of plan would work, but I do believe some people are naive enough to believe it would if they didn't have any IFR flying experience.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jackwilson 0]

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As for the weather, it's a moot point. If you understand micro meteorology you'll know the wind can be blowing like stink on one side of a ridge and be dead calm on the other. So we'll never know the actual conditions he landed in.

The rub in all this is if Cooper had been an experienced jumper I'm sure he would have brought a parachute on board with him. Instead he relied on whatever he was going to get. Would any of you do that?

NickD


Nick,

Thanks for the great information related to the wind.

I agree, we don't know the conditions, because none of us were on that plane.

Heck, even the local experts say Cooper got away. The only people saying Cooper died, is the FBI, to save face. The FBI just didn't want people duplicating the crime, or admitting Cooper got away, so,they started the stories about the wind, rain, etc.

As for Cooper bringing his own chute.

Who's to say he didn't?

Cooper was the last to board, from the aftstairs, and nobody paid him any attention, until he handed the ransom note to the stewardess.

So, why couldn't he have made his own chute, and stashed it in the overhead bin.

For those who say it's impossible.

Just two weeks earlier, a man whose idea Cooper copied, did just that.

He carried his own chute on board, but, was overpowered by the crew.

Let's assume Cooper didn't bring his own chute.

Well, if you are aware of the riggers in Seattle, where's the risk.

In other words, if he was a local jumper, and had used the riggers, he would have known the names when he examined the USPA card.

That is why Cooper demanded two sets of chutes.

IMO, he opened one back chute, to make sure it would open, and examined the shrouds, canopy, etc.

IF one chute opens, and is good, wouldn't one assume the other chute is good?

AS for repacking the chute.

I dont' think that happened.

I think the Stewardess is talking about Cooper examining the chute, and cutting the shrouds to wrap the money into a bundle, so, it wouldn't fall apart during the descent.

As for the stewardesses being in on it, or there wasn't a Cooper:

At least four witnesses, all three stewardesses, the kid across from Cooper, and witnesses on the plane, said there was a middle aged man in the back of the plane. In addition, the manifest confirmed there was a 36th passenger.

However, I agree that scenario should have been considered.

To my limited knowledge, all three flight attendants are still alive.

The flight attendants assisted the FBI, after the crime. But, went into hiding when the FBI didn't catch Cooper, and the country thought it was "cute" that a "terrorist" could hijack a jet, and steal 200k.

Nobody in the US, thought of the flight attendants, and how something like this will affect your enjoyment of working in the airline industry.

Also, don't forget.

Cooper spoke to the captain, via the interphone.

Since all of the flight attendants were female, this would have been difficult for them to pull off.

YOu made some excellent points, and thanks for sharing your skydiving expertise.

However, I think it is unlikely the three stewardesses were all in on this.

When crimes happen, sometimes the nightmares, the anxiety, etc, is delayed. I think the stewardesses realised the FBI was not doing a very good job trying to solve this case, and said, enough is enough.

One huge thing I will agree with you, is that this case is a "semi-inside job".

good thought.s

[skyjack71 0]

Thank You,

This Wilson person has a lot of useless information and incorrect information. I am not a pilot and would never attempt to muddy the experts opinions of the flight. They did reaccess something regarding the vector, due to the winds. Therefore deciding that he may have landed South East of the original search area...which fits with the places that Duane took me to and the things he told me.

I will forever maintain that the money that was found in 1980 was put there by Duane in the fall of 1979 (we stopped at two places on the Columbia). I have asked the FBI to do testing on the money using the new methods of today, but they have never done that. They just do not have the man power nor cash flow to investigate a very old crime.

NOTE to ALL: Something very special will be happening within the next few months regarding all of the work that I have done over the last 12 yrs.

No one seemed to be interested in Ross and Brown - maybe they should be (for those who do not know these guys were suspects early on in the investigation by the FBI and lived in the Alanta area.) Duane also lived in the Atlanta area during that time.

I made a request back many posts ago about Ross and Brown - that if anyone had access to their files to please help me. What has been needed was real help from individuals who might have access to things I do not. It has happened.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Wilson, I finally have to say something. You keep posting information you know is NOT TRUE. You are making information up. For instance that Cooper was the LAST person to board - are you trying to rewrite history or just muddy the water so that no one actually knows the real facts regarding the crime as it was reported to the FBI.

You run around with your INFORMATION like a chicken with its head cut off. Ever seen a chicken run with its head off? He goes around in circles and gets nowhere- after all he has no head.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[jackwilson 0]

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Pretty bad theory.

Like bad fiction, it was a dark and stormy night.

I don't know if you've ever been in a plane at night in stormy weather, but I can not in my wildest imagination believe he any a clue as to where he was without looking at the instrumentation and there is absloutely no indication that he possessed the knowledge or skill to do that nor any indication he was in the cockpit for any extended period of time.

Further, being in a plane is not like being in a car. There are no g-force side loads to clue you in. A two minute turn rate is almost imperceptable without looking outside the aircraft and even then only if you're out of the clouds.

In fact, skillfully done, it's possible to put an airplane completely upside down without any appreciable loads over 1g. Unskillfully flown VRF continued into IFR has had pilots exiting clouds upside down on numerous occasions -- usually with fatal results.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that sort of plan would work, but I do believe some people are naive enough to believe it would if they didn't have any IFR flying experience.

Well, thanks what makes the case so interesting.

Everyone has a different take.

BTW: According to all reports, Cooper was "never" in the cockpit of the hijacked jet that night.

Yes, I've heard it is possible to turn, without any force noticeable on the body.

However, even if the turn was perfect, Cooper could have simply used a compass, navigational aid, or other device to know his location, direction, etc.

Timing the route, since Cooper gave the route, altitude, airspeed, etc. would give you a 5 mile radius of your location, per the KOIN report, and a local skydiving expert.

Who's to say he didnt' have someone on the ground talking him down?

Cooper had some knowledge of skydiving, and flight.

He knew about sport chutes, altitude, knots, airstairs, interphone, D-rings.

He also set the speed, and route, and told the crew what altitude to use, and the "flap" setting.

Plus, he came up with an original plan.

Not only that, but, after the Cooper jump, people with little to no experience, duplicated his jump, without a problem.

One guy, with no experience, jumped at 300 knots, and survived.

So, it has been proven, that the jump was not impossible.

Easy, no. Impossible, no. Difficult, yes.

But, for 200k, I know a lot of people who would take the challenge.

I'm familar with how pilots can become disoriented, like JFK, and fly into the water, etc.

But, in the Cooper case, he had professional pilots, flying a 727.

Experts, from the area, said the jump could have been made. They said, all you need to do is time the route, and know within a 5 mile radius of your jumpsite. And this is if from a top five jumper in the US.

IMO, if Cooper splattered, he would have been found within a week.

Still, 35 years later, no Cooper, nothing.

NO chutes, no body, no billfold, no harness, no briefcase.

Oh, but, they did find a one foot square "placard" from the back of the jet, in 1979.

So, if the jump was so difficult, why didn't the FBi find a body?

why did other's pull off the same crime, and make it safely to the ground?

Like Nick said, none of us was on that jet, and NONE of us knows the weather that night, the visibility, etc.

To say, it was a stormy night, is redundant for Oregon.

Heck, we don't even know for sure where Cooper jumped, or if he jumped.

I watched the KOIN report again, and the searchers, who were looking for Cooper, the two local skydiving instructors, both said, the jump could have been done.

The one guy, even said, Cooper had everything planned to a "t".

to think, that Cooper didn't have some way of knowing where he wanted to jump is hard to believe.

IT's funny, but, when the jet was circling Seattle, Cooper recognized Tacoma from 6,000 feet.

Obviously, the weather wasn't that bad, if he was able to see the ground at 6,000 feet.

[quade 4]

Quote

However, even if the turn was perfect, Cooper could have simply used a compass, navigational aid, or other device to know his location, direction, etc.

Timing the route, since Cooper gave the route, altitude, airspeed, etc. would give you a 5 mile radius of your location, per the KOIN report, and a local skydiving expert.

Sorry to tell you this, but that is simply so far out of the realm of possibilty it's not even worth considering -- ever.

I seriously doubt the reporter in the KOIN story nor the skydiving "expert" has the knowledge to make the determination that a jump such as that could be accurate within 5 miles. Reporters generally aren't both pilots AND skydivers. Skydiving experts are usually experts in skydiving, but almost never have the type of training required to make IFR navigation judgements like the one being claimed.

Let me assure you that I -do-.

There would be absolutely no way in that day to have any sort of navaid that would have allowed for it; portable GPS did not exist nor did even vaguely accurate portable VOR receivers. There would be absolutely no way to ded-reckon the information either; there are simply too many variables. He would not know at what points ATC turned the plane during departure. He would not have any idea what the actual winds aloft were.

I'm telling you right now that if an exit happened, it was based on a LOT of guess work, but in no way, shape or form was it an accurate spot. In this case, a circle of uncertainty of 5 miles would be an amazing achievment.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jackwilson 0]

Quote

Wilson, I finally have to say something. You keep posting information you know is NOT TRUE. You are making information up. For instance that Cooper was the LAST person to board - are you trying to rewrite history or just muddy the water so that no one actually knows the real facts regarding the crime as it was reported to the FBI.

You run around with your INFORMATION like a chicken with its head cut off. Ever seen a chicken run with its head off? He goes around in circles and gets nowhere- after all he has no head.

Sky:

Sorry, I should have asked you before I posted. My bad.

Do me a favor.

Read Richard Tosaw's book, DB Cooper, Dead or Alive.

On page 2 of his book, he states, that Cooper was the last to board at Portland.

Now, I know it is only a book. A, book, well researched, and a man who spoke to all six members of the flight crew, Soderlind, Himmelback, Cossey, and other's.

So, be careful, when you are accusing people of not telling the truth.

We can agree, or disagree, on who is Cooper, whether a bank can be felt by passengers, etc., but, I won't tolerate you accusing me of lying about the facts of the case.

IF you have facts, written, that show this is incorrect, share it with all of us, and we can determine which source is most likely right, or simply say we don't know.

But, simply because I have asked for you, and so have others, to put Duane in Portland, or in a skydiving harness, don't make accusations that aren't true.

So, what is your source, that Cooper was not the last person to board in Portland.

FTR: ONly a handful of people boarded in Portland, since it is only a half hour flight to Seattle.

And, the passengers did use the aftstairs to board, according to Tosaw.

I don't agree with Tosaw's Big Splatt theory, but, the man does know how to research a case.

BTW: Since all the other's are in agreement, that the Cooper jump was a difficult one, just how did Duane get the expertise to pull this off.

Most here, say, they wouldn't try it. Yet, we have a novice, from Atlanta, blow into town, without knowledge of the terrain, flight patterns, etc. and pull off the perfect crime.

OH, and then, bury the money in a bucket, and forget where he buried the bucket.

So, where, exactly, did duane get the bucket. Cooper was not given a bucket, so, Duane would have had to go home, or have an accomplice with a bucket, in which to bury the money.

Then, we are suppose to believe, that Duane returns to the area 8 years later, throws 3 packets into the water, they land on a beach, and are still touching each other?

OK. Now, I get it.

[jackwilson 0]

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However, even if the turn was perfect, Cooper could have simply used a compass, navigational aid, or other device to know his location, direction, etc.

Timing the route, since Cooper gave the route, altitude, airspeed, etc. would give you a 5 mile radius of your location, per the KOIN report, and a local skydiving expert.

Sorry to tell you this, but that is simply so far out of the realm of possibilty it's not even worth considering -- ever.

I seriously doubt the reporter in the KOIN story nor the skydiving "expert" has the knowledge to make the determination that a jump such as that could be accurate within 5 miles. Reporters generally aren't both pilots AND skydivers. Skydiving experts are usually experts in skydiving, but almost never have the type of training required to make IFR navigation judgements like the one being claimed.

Let me assure you that I -do-.

There would be absolutely no way in that day to have any sort of navaid that would have allowed for it; portable GPS did not exist nor did even vaguely accurate portable VOR receivers. There would be absolutely no way to ded-reckon the information either; there are simply too many variables. He would not know at what points ATC turned the plane during departure. He would not have any idea what the actual winds aloft were.

I'm telling you right now that if an exit happened, it was based on a LOT of guess work, but in no way, shape or form was it an accurate spot. In this case, a circle of uncertainty of 5 miles would be an amazing achievment.

I agree. It would have been an educated guess.

However, if your life was on line, your freedom, wouldn't put a lot of homework into this jump, and practice the route, via the use of a Cessna?

FTR: the skydiving expert, in the piece, is like you, also a pilot.

He is a former Accuracy champion, and private pilot since he was a teenager, according to reports.

It has been mentioned, about using a portable VOR device.

Regardless, of what method was being used, I agree it wouldn't be as accurate as GPS, we all do.

However, I think we are all making one huge assumption.

We are all assuming, that from the stairs of a 727, that Cooper had absolutely no vision from 10,000 feet that night.

I wasn't there, but, other's have suggested, there would be breaks in the clouds, the ability to see the Lake Merwin Dam.

How do we know Cooper didn't have an "A", "B", "C", dropzone?. So, if one zone was clouded in, or the pilot was out course, he waited for the next dropzone.

I agree that dead reckoning, is not an exact science.

But, it does put you in the ballpark. Agree?

After all, Cooper did give the pilot the speed, route, etc.

OF course, the pilot had to slow down, to assist with lowering the aftstairs. this would have screwed up the dead reckoning calculations, given the change in speed.

AS I'm sure most here are aware, back in WWII, paratroopers had the same problem. Finding dropzones on cloudy nights.

The US developed the "pathfinders". They would go into enemy territory early, set up transmittors on tri-pods, and the radar on the approaching planes would find the signal, and know when to drop the paratroopers.

Well, we all know the horror stories about WWII paratroopers being dropped 10-20 miles from their targets, etc.

However, that was 30 years before Cooper, and technolgy did change over the years.

One example. In the one book, it is mentioned a small plane was circling under the general area of where Cooper to thought to have jumped, at the time of the jump.

Well, that brings up two points.

First, if the weather was so bad, why is a small aircraft flying in such bad weather?

In addition, even Himmelback, alledges, that maybe the pilot of the small plane, was signaling to Cooper when to jump, or was waiting to get Cooper out of the dropzone after he landed.

Regardless, IMO, Cooper talking on a portable CB radio, to an accomplice on the ground, is not only possible, but likely.

The accomplice, could listen for the jet, or possibly be relaying ATC to Cooper.

My point, about the turns, the timing, etc, are simple, there are ways to get into the ball park, of where to jump.

On top of this, in WWII, the Japanese, used radio directional finders to find Pearl Harbor and bomb our bases.

How do we know there weren't antennas, or other radio transmissions, on the mountains in the area where cooper jumped?

Plus, like I mentioned, there were "beacons" for aircraft, just north of where Cooper jumped. Aren't beacons designed for airplanes to see in weather, to stay away from potential hazards?

Even the FBI agent in charge of the Portland office, when scouring the area where Cooper was thought to jump, was quoted as saying there were plenty of safe places to land, and we have to assume he made it safely to the ground.

A question: IF Cooper was a local pilot, and skydiver, who grew up in the area, and knew the terrain, would that change your opinion?

Skydiving question: IF Cooper pulled at 5,000 feet, and was an expert skydiver, how far could he steer, and make it to a pre-determined spot?

5 miles, 10 Miles?

Regardless, If Cooper had an accomplice on the ground, and simply waited for a moment, where he was fairly certain of the terrain, and jumped, and let his accomplice know of his whereabouts, to be picked up, I just don't see how this is out of the question.

We're talking about professional skydivers here, not amatuers.

There is a man in Utah, who did the same exact thing I suggested earlier. HE gave the pilot the speed, route, etc, and used the turn of the plane, to determine his jump. He landed safely, hid the money, hitched a ride into town, and returned the next day to pick up the loot. Did Cooper do the same?

[Scotty11 0]

Richard Tosaw"s book does indeed state that Cooper was the last one to board, but it is not a fact. As with all books literary liberties are taken.
Himmelsback's book has errors also.

Having followed this thread and many other, Mrs. Weber does state her case very well. She has not been able to put him in Portland on that day, but his connections to the area and knowledge of the area are firm.

Mr. Tosaw is a egotistical individual who is unrelentless in his belief that Cooper Splattered. He is also a very difficult individual - his money could well be spent to finance realistic investigations rather than hiring divers to explore the Columbia.

As for Mrs. Weber, she is simply trying to find the evidence that will put her husband in Portland and in a parachute. She does seem to have everything else in order. I believe she is posting here to find that needle in the haystack.

I would hesitate to believe that Duane Weber was a novice and Mrs. Weber has established his knowledge of the area and terrain and flight patterns...ex-cons spent much of their time planning the "Big One". Perhaps he did do it.

You are being fecitious regarding the bucket as he did refer to a bucket in the hospital with a witness present - the witness was interviewed and her statement was taken. Five gallon paint buckets would have been readily available on the ground in a barn or shed near his landing site.

She was firm in her belief that he threw something into the Columbia behind a hotel below the bridge as he went to the river while she was taking care of something else. The recovered bills need to be analyzed with modern day technology...this could prove or disprove her theory.

Her story is a very compelling one. It does give one reason to ponder the validity and want to know more.

[quade 4]

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I agree that dead reckoning, is not an exact science.

But, it does put you in the ballpark. Agree?

No. I've already and repeated stated as much. He simply didn't have access to any information that would tell him if his orders were being carried out nor would he have any way of knowing any one of several other variables involved.

He -may- have been able to guess what state he was in, but I think that's about it.

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After all, Cooper did give the pilot the speed, route, etc.

According to this article, the pilot was flying at least a bit faster than Cooper had told him to. It is HIGHLY doubtful that he'd be able to tell the difference from 10,000ft even if it was daylight and he was able to see the ground.

Am I safe to assume you've never spotted a jumprun from a tailgate aircraft? Am I further safe to assume you don't have any idea how to calculate a jumprun based on winds aloft?

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Skydiving question: IF Cooper pulled at 5,000 feet, and was an expert skydiver, how far could he steer, and make it to a pre-determined spot?

Not far. With the parachutes in question, he was basically along for the ride of where ever the wind decided to blow him. The forward speed would be in the neighborhood of, I think, 2 mph which is actually pretty much the same as nothing in this case.

Forget any notion of him finding a target while in flight, timing the jumprun, bailing and then landing at that target or even anywhere near it. This could almost certainly have never happened.

Could -A- jump take place? Certainly. THAT part is trivial. Leave the aircraft and hope for the best.

Could an ACCURATE jump take place to a predetermined landing area? No flippin' way. Not even close. Almost certainly not even within a theoretical 5 mile radius based on any form of navigation available to him or a ground spotter or whatever else you'd like to fantasize about.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

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As for Mrs. Weber, she is simply trying to find the evidence that will put her husband in Portland and in a parachute. She does seem to have everything else in order.

Having everything else "in order" is pretty useless without these 2 things. I will be much more inclined to take her version of it when we have proof that Weber had skydiving experience - we haven't seen proof of even a single jump yet. She's been posting here close to a year and we still have not been presented with anything at all that puts Weber in a parachute. Unless, again, it was someone else in a parachute and Weber was the "man on the ground"...(but then of course he is not actually DB Cooper, "just" his helper). I'm inclined to think there is another poster here to whom the truth is just as important as it is to Jo, and that person clearly does not think it was Weber - but far from being a "nuisance" to Jo I believe that person is really looking for the truth, just unwilling to explain why (and so has less sympathy from everyone else?).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Scotty11 0]

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Having everything else "in order" is pretty useless without these 2 things. I will be much more inclined to take her version of it when we have proof that Weber had skydiving experience - we haven't seen proof of even a single jump yet.

Note the very first post by Mrs. Weber which clearly states the intent of this thread. She is seeking the assistance of the industry to acquire that information.