D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[airtwardo 7]

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Seem not everyone cares as much as we do...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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also said there were no prints on the tie pin - which I guess also kind of undermines any 'theory' about 'planting' prints using it.

Don't confuse reality with perception. All that is required is for Cooper to believe prints were there or could be found on it.

I know it's a long shot, I'm just saying the fact that prints weren't found doesn't undermine the idea.

[Orange1 0]

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also said there were no prints on the tie pin - which I guess also kind of undermines any 'theory' about 'planting' prints using it.

Don't confuse reality with perception. All that is required is for Cooper to believe prints were there or could be found on it.

I know it's a long shot, I'm just saying the fact that prints weren't found doesn't undermine the idea.

Sorry ScPLF, on this one I am gonna disagree. IF the intention was indeed a "throwdown"/planting prints/whatever - one assumes it would have been done in such a way to ensure the FBI had a false print to go off on a wild goose chase on? Occam's razor, and the more likely option is simply that the tie was left because skydiving with a tie is not such a great idea, and Cooper in those pre-DNA days didn't think there would be anything on it of use to the FBI.

And gee, couldn't you have found a name that was easier to abbreviate?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Seem not everyone cares as much as we do...

that of course is the more rational response

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Prints on a tie isn't even worth discussing at this point, so end of discussion.

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skydiving with a tie is not such a great idea

I asked about this over a month ago and no one on here ever mentioned a thing.

I'll ask again... if you're wearing a collar and a clip on tie, why would you want to remove it? Is it harder to put on the harness? If yes, did Tina see Cooper remove the tie as he put on the harness? Does the tie impede him on his fall? I can see that it might get in his way if he didn't strap it underneath any straps OR his coat and suit jacket. If Cooper is wearing a rain coat and a suit jacket, would his tie hinder him?

Thank you.

As for the FBI not having anything better to do, Ckret only spends time on here that is his "free" time. It's not like there's a Cooper task force... or actually, that would be us, ha ha ha.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

What I'm asking is why was the tie left behind?

No matter what you answer, you're assuming something. We don't know. Can we come to some type of reasoning?

Obviously everyone wants to just say he took it off just to take it off... why does he take it off?
And further, why does he take it off and then put that clasp back on it??? And then, after being so careful to take back the note, why does he grab everything else, his briefcase, his paper sack, his sunglasses... and then leaves his tie?

We don't know. Maybe now is a good time to discuss this again, or maybe not. If some experienced skydivers could chime in on reasons to remove a tie, keeping in mind that he's already wearing a raincoat and a suit jacket... and if you assume Cooper wore the tie, then you also assume he's only wearing a clip on...

If you want to get into a debate about which theory poses the least amount of assumptions, we can do that, but we cannot eliminate assumptions because no matter which way you go on this, you assume something, which leads to potential error. This isn't an issue of fact, it's purely speculation.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

FROM NOW ON i AM SIGNING MY POSTS AS COOPER TASK FORCE, AGENT # 3. HA!
Man people get heated over this, like it was coming out of their own pocket. RELAX people! everyone wants the same thing, to know who Cooper was be it, Weber, McCoy, Mayfield, StratoStar, Airtwardo, SafecrackingPLF or any other person. Respect what others input cause to them it may be the clue Ckret is looking for.

[speedy 0]

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And further, why does he take it off and then put that clasp back on it??? And then, after being so careful to take back the note, why does he grab everything else, his briefcase, his paper sack, his sunglasses... and then leaves his tie?

Well, I have jumped in sun glasses, I don't think they would have stayed on without a helmet though.
Having jumped and had flapping things whip my face to a raw red mess, I can understand not wanting to jump with a tie.

One thing that puzzles me is that even if he survived the jump, I don't see any reason to carry the rig and parachute out of the area with him.
Why even bother to bury it? It's not like they could use the equipment to chase him.

I believe that the rig and canopy is still somewhere in that area. As John Rich said, look for it.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I respect... everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of what we know.

But let's not say something is certain when it isn't. I've done my best to follow this, and hopefully everyone else does too.

An example... people say that Mayfield could not get to a pay phone in time.
That's just a blanket statement with no teeth.

Can you prove it?

All I'm asking for are reasons why Cooper removes his tie. If it's tough to put on the harness with it on, then we're assuming he removes before harnessing up. Did Tina see him remove it as he put on his harness?? Simple question.

I'd like to ask another question along those lines, when Tina watched him harness up, did he first botton up his coat(s)?

If he has his harness on, then realizes, "oh sh*t, I'd better take this thing off, it will fly in my face" then you're saying he's all harnessed up, with his suit jacket and raincoat on, and then digs underneath all that strapping (maybe even the chest chute that doesn't work, though I think we've concluded he's actually NOT wearing this chest chute) and pulls off his tie, with the clasp still on it, and lays it down on his seat. Grabs everything else and then forgets that he left his tie.

Forgetting the tie is reasonable. I'm asking about all that other stuff... what makes him want to take it off? It's not going to choke him, it's a clip on.
That's all...

I'm actually asking for opinions here.

Cooper task force, agent 5, signing off... ha ha ha

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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I believe that the rig and canopy is still somewhere in that area.

I agree with you. All that crap would have weighed him down on his exit. It's probably buried under years of fallen leaves, pine needles, dirt, and bushes... but it's probably where he left it. At this point, it would probably take a metal detector and a very patient person to comb through those square miles of woods.

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Well, I have jumped in sun glasses, I don't think they would have stayed on without a helmet though.

Yes, there's no way he wears those sunglasses when he jumps... it's already dark enough and he couldn't possibly be stupid enough to think they'd stay on. The point about the sunglasses is that they already served their purpose... he most likely did not wear them when he jumped, but he didn't leave them behind either.... he took everything with him, except the tie, and this is why it's a point of contention with me.

If he took it off to harness up, then Tina saw him do it. Just show me her quote where she says "and then he removed his tie, loosened his collar, and began to put on the harness"
If this quote doesn't exist, then is there any information that says if he buttoned his coat or not... was it ALREADY buttoned when he was sitting there the whole time??

I agree, he doesn't want that thing slapping him in the face.... but did he remove it before or after he harnessed up? It won't slap him in the face if his coats are all bottoned, would it? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

[Ckret 0]

A bit of new info, the concrete time of the jump was based on the crews communication with NWA flight operations. NWA flight operations was keeping a running log documenting each communication noting the time. I did a re-read of the NWA log, tower transmission and the flight crew interviews and discovered when the crew felt the pressure variance they were not on the phone with NWA. They called just after to report the incident. The person keeping the log must have not written the time he received the communication but the time the crew thought they felt the bump.

Another clue to the time is the ground radio teletype log. It my understanding that the teletype will automatically log the time with the communication. The crew typed a message which was logged at 8:12 and mentioned oscillations not a bump.

The crew referenced a call to Cooper at 8:05 PM when making a statement about the pressure change, stating the pressure bump occurred 5 to 10 minutes after this. They further stated that when they felt the pressure change they were not yet to Portland but definitely in the suburbs.

In reviewing the flight path the plane flew directly over Battleground WA, turn and flew a straight line to Salem OR. If you look at the map I posted, 8:11 PM was the determined to be the jump point which is listed as point A. Point S is 8:10 PM and Point F is 8:12. The plot was laid out with a +-1 minute delay in reporting.

From all of this and the location where the money was found, we need to extend the calulation to 8:13, 8:14 and 8:15. I am guessing this would put the jump location near Orchard WA.

The winds for that location are as follows:

wind direction wind speed height
225 degrees 20 knots 7,000
230 degrees 25 knots 5,000
235 degrees 20 knots 2,000
235 degrees 15 knots surface

If you buy my theory that Cooper was a novice jumper then he most likely deployed very soon after leaving the aircraft. If he jumped over Orchard or just south and deployed just out of the aircraft, I believe this would put him in the Washougal Water Shed.

[Orange1 0]

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Prints on a tie isn't even worth discussing at this point, so end of discussion.

?? I made that point ages ago and someone, can't remember if it was you, pointed out that there could have been prints on the tie pin. It was specifically the possibility of prints on that that i was referring to, not the tie itself. What on earth would the point of the throwdown theory be if there was nothing to lead anyone astray? Am I missing something here?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[mark 107]

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All I'm asking for are reasons why Cooper removes his tie. If it's tough to put on the harness with it on, then we're assuming he removes before harnessing up. Did Tina see him remove it as he put on his harness?? Simple question.

No, it isn't hard to put on a harness while wearing a tie, but depending on how the harness fits, it pulls on the neck of a jumpsuit or shirt. I speculate that Cooper had the tie on as he was donning his harness, found that he was uncomfortable with his shirt buttoned all the way up, and took the tie off to unbutton the top button -- and with the top button undone, there's no place to clip a clip-on.

As to why he replaced the tie-tack, I'd guess it was just reflex. I have one tie (really!), and when I take my tie off, I leave the tie-tack with it.

Mark

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, if you had read the rest of my post rather than selectively choosing something, you will see that I knew exactly what it is. And I noted that I (and i am sure not just me either) had often handled these BEFORE they were torn out and put in the sleeve to act as boarding pass. Come to think of it there is an easy possibility that prints get on it while it is in the boarding card sleeve as well. To simply dismiss the possibility that any prints of use might be on it seems a bit strange. Wouldn't the better procedure to be to check to see?

1969 was the first time that I had ever flown in my life - I do not remember the card being placed in a jacket - It was pulled out and kept by the stewardess. Are you sure ABSOLUTELY SURE that in 1971 that they removed the card and put it on the other side of the Jacket -where Cooper could have touched the card? The only time the card was touched on the flight I went on in 1969 was by the stewardess.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Point S is 8:10 PM and Point F is 8:12. The plot was laid out with a +-1 minute delay in reporting.

I gathered as much, especially since the first line has him jumping directly over Lewis River, which was approx where the plane was at 8:10.

One quick question, the oscillation... it has been my understanding that the "bump" and the oscillation occured simultaneously. In other words, the air flowing beneath the fuselage pushed the stairs up, which also affected the trim of the plane... in other words, they felt the pressure, and the plane reacted as well.

If you've ever been water skiing, you'll know what I mean... the boarder jumps, it tugs on the boat, you feel an oscillation.

Any indication that they may have occured simultaneously?

Off the cuff, without looking, if he lands in Orchards, it seems possible for him to make it to a tributary, BUT, I'm doubting if he can make it to a Washougal tributary... I've already started to put this together for you, it should be tonight or maybe even tomorrow.

[Orange1 0]

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I believe that the rig and canopy is still somewhere in that area.

I agree with you. All that crap would have weighed him down on his exit. It's probably buried under years of fallen leaves, pine needles, dirt, and bushes... but it's probably where he left it. At this point, it would probably take a metal detector and a very patient person to comb through those square miles of woods.

Question... how does this theory change, necessarily, if it is rewritten as rig + canopy + corpse?
The work done (that you are doing) in narowing down the potential DZ is probably going to be the only thing that i can see that will give any potential lead on this. It may yet yield some physical evidence.

And yes of course I agree that anything right now is an assumption as there is not one shred of evidence anywhere, just a range of theories. I'm not dismissing anything out of hand, it just seems to me that certain of them seem less obviously logical than others. I personally would only go to the more, uh, inventive ones (like assuming cooper was sending a "signal" to persons unknown who were in any case apparently too dumb to pick up on it for 35 years) once the obvious ones have been dismissed.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Not necessarily... our landing zone has just been expanded by several minutes and thus, several miles!

As it was, it was impossible for Cooper to have died... now we have to go back to the drawing board.

[Orange1 0]

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1969 was the first time that I had ever flown in my life - I do not remember the card being placed in a jacket - It was pulled out and kept by the stewardess. Are you sure ABSOLUTELY SURE that in 1971 that they removed the card and put it on the other side of the Jacket -where Cooper could have touched the card. The only time the card was touched on the flight I went on in 1969 was by the stewardess.

I'm not sure what you're asking. IIRC, anyone who flew often feel free to correct me, your ticket was in a little booklet type thing, written on with carbon to the end with each page being a coupon for a leg of the flight. I'm presuming the carbon at the back was what you say you found. The coupon (is that what you mean by card?) would be pulled out, i recall them being in sleeves as boarding cards. It seems strange to me that you claim never to have touched your boarding card, anytime between receiving it from the check-in clerk to handing it to the person at the gate. And maybe you never opened your original ticket book to check it was correct, or to check your flight number/time etc, but many people did.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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As it was, it was impossible for Cooper to have died... now we have to go back to the drawing board.

Are you just dismissing a theory?

shouldn't you first check the expanded LZ you talk about before making that statement?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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I made that point ages ago and someone, can't remember if it was you, pointed out that there could have been prints on the tie pin. It was specifically the possibility of prints on that that i was referring to, not the tie itself. What on earth would the point of the throwdown theory be if there was nothing to lead anyone astray? Am I missing something here?

You sure are missing something - about the tie.
It is not prints or DNA - it is who the tie may have belonged to and from whom it was taken and the significance of his leaving this treasured souvenir.

[skyjack71 0]

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Ckret -
You DO NOT answer my questions in private or on the forum or on the phone - this tells me exactly where I stand...I should never have told you about the tie. Now that information will just POOF!

The FBI getting a sworn Statement for a certain individual screams conspiracy. I haven't wanted to go there , but the actions of the FBI would lead one to believe exactly that - there was no great conspiracy just Duane's respect for The Great American Way. Yet, I am told to take my information to the Media. Strange that you haven't asked the Clerk and the witness for sworn statements about what they saw that night in 1971 and they have offered them up to you on a silver platter
.
Who is Denny Nichols??????????????????

======================================
Guys I posted this statement and now another email from Ckret - HE DOES NOT ADDRESS ONE THING I HAVE ASKED ABOVE - WHY! Presumably the investigation done yrs ago suffices. WHAT I am asking about occurred in the last few wks. and the information about the tie occurred only very recently.

Does anyone in this fourm know who DENNY NICHOLS could be.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Are you just dismissing a theory?

shouldn't you first check the expanded LZ you talk about before making that statement?

I don't follow...

I wasn't dismissing a theory, what I was saying was that it was impossible for Cooper to have died utilizing the information we were given. Now, Ckret is expanding the LZ by several minutes... we can no longer say Cooper had to live, now we're back to uncertainty, and back to the drawing board.

If Cooper jumps near Orchards, he's just west of a tributary. Off the cuff, without looking, it doesn't seem possible for him to land near a Washougal tributary, but we have to double check this... it does seem possible for him to land near a LaCamas tributary, but again, we have to plot it out and make calculations.

We REALLY need maps showing us this flight path.
The winds seem a little faster than what Ckret had posted previously... so given the updated information, it SEEMS at least possible that Cooper may have died upon impact, but we must check. The LZ is now half of clark county!

Can we narrow or rule out some? They tried to do this back in 72, but what was their reasoning for choosing 8:10-8:12 if it really could have been 8:09-8:15?

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Does anyone in this fourm know who DENNY NICHOLS could be.

I've never heard of this Denny Nichols guy. Sorry.

[Ckret 0]

Since there is nothing that reasonably points to someone planting the money, we can rule out any jump point that could not put Cooper near a tributary. If Cooper jumped over or just south of Orchard he would have been blown north and east several miles. If the farthest south jump point shown on the map I posted is 8:12, then where would the plane be at 8:13, 8:14 and 8:15. Also don't forget you could factor in a flight path .5 mile east of the flight path line from Battleground to Salem.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

Safe, Ckret ,
HERE IS A DUMB QUESTION BUT IT MAY SERVE SOME IMPORTANCE. We talk about time time time. Are we sure everyone was on the same time that was documenting the bumps ocilation, contact with cooper etc.? What i mean is my watch is set five minutes fast. if you as me at noon what time it was, i will say 12:05. If you ask another person they might say 11:59. that is a differenc of 6 minutes, a lot of miles. This plays alot into the time line of when Cooper left the plane. Did sombody look at their watch and say the bump was at 8:10 and the nav time was 8:06. I think this is critical in trying to figure out the time and flight secquences. do we know this?

Cooper task force agent #3

[happythoughts 0]

Some reasonable explanations for taking off the tie.

1- Anything flappy, even a shirt collar, that is not tucked inside the jumpsuit can beat the crap out of you.
I jump in tshirts because the collar on a golf shirt slapped me the whole time.

2- Anything that is flapping above your head during deployment could become entangle in your lines.

3- If the tie got tangled in your lines before line stretch, you could effectively hang yourself.

Talking about some great "tie conspiracy" sounds absurd. Taking it off was just good safety.
No one "planted it" or used it as a "throwdown".
(Unless it was Elvis. Maybe then.)

Let's face it, if you wear a tie to work, the first thing at home is to take off the tie for comfort.
There was no point of wearing one on a skydive.

The tie should be forgotten except as a source of DNA.

(edited to add. DNA will be of value to eliminate living matches, but nobody collected it 30 years ago. You can't match it to a body that you can't find.)