Gear Checks

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay peeps, I'd like to make a couple of points.
I am NOT against gear checks prior to emplaning, in fact I'm all for it.
I AM against increased 'rules' and extraneous paperwork in our sport. I, like most other people have to abide by certain rules in my ground bound day to day business. In fact I deal with the HSE (UK Govt safety people) on an almost daily basis, I write and develop safety cases for oil platforms mainly in the North Sea (which must be formally reviewed by the HSE) as part of my regular job designing them.
I AM all about people being responsible for their own safety.
Okay here's a little scenario, you rock and roll up to manifest at WFFC, the nice girl gives you a 3 minute call for the sunset Otter, cool you say, strapping on your rig, and hopping on said Otter.
You haven't had a gear check, are you any more or less safe than jumping in the UK (ignoring traffic issues) at your home DZ?
If you think you are less safe ask yourself why?......And do something about it. Teach yourself to look after yourself,
pin check yourself with your rig on, do all the look touch feel on the 3s as Polarbear suggested yourself, after all, its YOUR life at stake. Most people have a ritual check, review it from time to time.....I check my pins, bridle, cypres, 3ring and handles every time I pick my rig up, it takes about 60 seconds.
I am a little alarmed that a couple of people here have misrouted a chest strap and left it for somebody else to detect, its litterally right in front of your nose, for gawds sake.
Would you be happy having somebody who can't route a chest strap correctly checking you out?
Take yourself aside and slap yourself about a bit......
Oh, and at least once a month, give your gear a complete inspection, clean your cables, dismantle and reassemble the 3 rings, check all the usual wear points, and loops etc (there's an excellent gear check list both here, and on the BPA site), don't wait for that repack cycle to come crawling around......
"Complacency kills in this sport, but it is a very, very easy pit to fall into." ---great stuff Polarbear, my point exactly..Be disciplined people.
I'm not going to rant on canopy flying, thats entirely up to you....
And please don't get hurt, cos I love you all.......
Peace, and muckle great blue yins,
Cya
D

[polarbear 1]

Cool - I haven't ever been called "peeps" before Yeah, lots of rules can be burden on a sport centered around freedom. I'm all for "self-regulation" - it just requires that everyone actually do it, which doesn't always happen. I'd like to think people could place a bit higher emphasis on their own safety.
I always check my gear once before getting on the plane, once while on jump run, and try to get someone else to look at it somewhere in between.

[RichM 0]

D - I agree with you, take responsibility for your own actions. You cannot rely on a check to spot mistakes, and should never abdicate responsibilty for your own safety to someone else. However, most of us make mistakes from time to time and it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. I am very thorough when putting on gear, but I still did this wrong. I also double check myself on the way to altitude, and would probably have spotted my chest strap then, except it had already been spotted on the ground.
A second check should compliment your own procedures not challenge them for authority.
Rich M

[slotperfect 7]

I am all about this one . . . we as jumpers who care about safety can instill safe attitudes and common sense in our peers without Big Skydiving Brother imposing more stuff for us to comply with. After all, they watch us do it - and when they understand why, it serves as a great example. Good point!
Respectfully,
SP

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I guess I'd better not let myself get caught with a misrouted chest strap after all that......... [ironic]Cya
D

[cloud9 0]

This post generated the kind of discussion I was hoping for. I'm like a lot of you I would hate to see more regulations we need to look out for each other. I agree totally that each and everyone of us is resposible for ourselves. How ever if you were one who thought this will never happen to me, it was just plain stupid. Then you were the one I was trying to reach.
One day you will eat a big slice of humble pie! You will make a mistake!
I hope when you do someone is looking out for you.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Larry, yup, see above....cya around sometime...
Cya
D

[polarbear 1]

Yes...we should all take responsibility for ourselves. Each jumper's safety lies primarily in his/her own hands. Getting a gear check from someoneelse should not be a substitute.
I still think that many/most of us will at least once make some equipment error (albeit not necessarily a major one) at some point in our career...it is times like these when having someone else check the gear pay off.

[steve1 5]

I'm all for personal freedom, and I hate anyone telling me I have to do something, but at the same time I wouldn't mind seeing gear checks as mandantory. Particularly someone who is new to the sport. The two errors I mentioned earlier (including a mis-routed chest strap) happened after over a twenty year lay off from the sport. The gear was a lot different then, and my self given gear check was inadequate. A newbie may not have yet developed the skills to check themselves or even be able to identify something that is dangerous even though they are off student status. It isn't like someone is just going to kill themselves. They may also endanger others on the load. Some people are reckless and don't really give a rip what happens to themselves or anyone else. When they go in, it makes our sport look bad. When they rip out the side of the plane because their pins weren't deep enough, who is going to die with them. No one is infallable. I know of a couple jumpers who had over a thousand jumps who have misrouted a chest strap. We all get in too much of a rush sometimes to make the next load. A mandantory gear check (by an experienced jumper) may be all that it would take to save someone's life. I had a friend bounce once who had a bungie over his reserve ripcord handle. After cutting away his para-comander he went for his belly-reserve rip-cord handle. He fought it all the way to the ground. A gear check would have saved his life. This is just my 50 cents worth. Steve

[kwmontreal 0]

For me it comes down to I like the people I jump with. I always ask for a gear check from someone. If there is someone I don't know on the load I ask them. Its is a good way to start a conversation and involve someone who is visiting or perhaps looking for a new DZ to call home. Nobody likes to be told (regulated) to do anything, and, in this case, we should not need to have this kind of rule. I'd like to think that we are a careing community, and we look out for our own. There is no room for complacency in this sport, and there is no sound reason for refusing a simple gear check. Make it a habit. Gear check before boarding the aircraft. Pin check just prior to jumprun!!
Jump Safe
Kent

[billvon 2,990]

>I'm all for personal freedom, and I hate anyone telling me I have to do something,
> but at the same time I wouldn't mind seeing gear checks as mandantory.
Something of a contradiction there, but OK . . .
>Particularly someone who is new to the sport. The two errors I mentioned earlier
> (including a mis-routed chest strap) happened after over a twenty year lay off
> from the sport.
Well, but that's two different things. Transitioning gear is always a big issue, and retraining is really important. Since there's nearly an endless assortment of old gear to transition from, I don't think it's possible to really standardize on a mandatory training regimen that will cover everything (i.e. capewells require different retraining than an SOS)
>A newbie may not have yet developed the skills to check themselves or even be
>able to identify something that is dangerous even though they are off student
> status.
That's a separate issue. If someone gets off student status and cannot safely check, put on and use a "standard" skydiving rig (standard being whatever is in use at their DZ) then the instructional program has failed. Solution: fix the program. Don't mandate something that someone with 2000 jumps needs to do to fix a problem with a training program.
>It isn't like someone is just going to kill themselves. They may also endanger
> others on the load.
Of course, and that's true with every aspect of skydiving. A zoomy freeflyer may get beneath an RW load, open high, and kill someone on the RW load. Worse yet, a novice jumper may get on a demo and kill a spectator. That's a risk we have to learn to mitigate no matter what the issue, but I don't think mandating stuff is the answer. (Mandatory air dolphin rating before being allowed on a load with RW?)
>A mandantory gear check (by an experienced jumper) may be all that it would
>take to save someone's life.
Well, so would mandatory large 7-cells until you pass a USPA canopy course, and it would save a lot more people than a mandatory gear check would. I would still be against such a requirement. Skydiving is dangerous, and you can get killed any one of a dozen ways. Education is the best way to reduce the risk. Mandating things simply gives bad jumpers an official rather than an unofficial way to do something stupid. (i.e. "I can't possibly knock my pin out on exit, I got a USPA approved gear check from an expert!") I'd rather keep it the responsibility of each jumper, because that's where the responsibility belongs. Handing it off to someone else is the wrong direction to go if we are to push the idea that each jumper is 100% responsible for his or her own safety.
>I had a friend bounce once who had a bungie over his reserve ripcord handle.
I've had three friends die doing equally dumb things. In each case, a new law or rule could have prevented their deaths. That's not a good enough reason for me to want any of those new rules.
-bill von

[steve1 5]

Bill,
I don't mean to be contradictory. But our sport is governed by rules. And I think a mandatory gear check makes just as much sense as all the other rules. Most jumpers that I know don't even bother with a gear check most of the time when they get on a load. Sure skydiving is dangerous but why make it more so. Some rules are needed. A mandatory gear check would undoughtably save a lot of lives. And why would it be such a hardship on anyone? All it would take is to have the senior jumpers on each load do a quick gear check of the other jumpers before boarding the plane. Just because a jumper has a couple thousand jumps doesn't mean they are infallible. A friend of mine has over 6,000 jumps and had to pull his reserve last year because his throw out handle was stuffed in so deep he couldn't get it out. A gear check would have caught this. Sometimes over confidence builds complacensy. I don't think anyone is too good for a gear check. Sure some regulations could be stupid and burdensome, but I don't feel this is one of them. Steve

[gale 0]

Just as a newbie perspective:
On the plane ride up yesterday one experienced jumper asked another to do a pin check just before the door opened. Well, I watched the checker adjust the the guys closing pin just seconds before this guy left the aircraft.
Now would this have resulted in a mal? Probably not. But the very fact that it needed adjusting at all is proof enough to me that gear checks are a great idea.
Now whether they should be mandated or not I'll leave to someone else, but for me, I definately think they should be there.
Gale
Life's not worth living if you can't feel alive

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

It might be a good idea to do pin checks in the aircraft, a few minutes before jump run, rather than on it. If anything needs to be adjusted, it can be done without rushing.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[slotperfect 7]

My rule of thumb: I get my pins checked well before the door opens (usually we are not on jump run yet). After they are checked, I no longer lean back against the inside of the sircraft. At this point I check all my handles and my RSL. When the door opens, with the exception of goggles down (I do this at the last minute) I am ready to exit.
Respectfully,
SP

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

That's why I like my teardrop SF - its a pop top, so you've only got the one pin to check in plane, and it's easy to do without having to open the pin cover. I know that once I've checked my reserve pin on the fround, it's not going anywhere until I want it to.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[RichM 0]

Just to play devils advocate, should you have a regimen of compulsory checks and something goers wrong, it could be argued that the checker was partially to blame, and is open to litigation for negligence. Then we rapidly end up with extra premiums on our insurance and possibly insuring skydiving into the realms of the rich and fabulously rich only.
I actually agree with gear checks, but I don't agree with compulsion.
Rich M

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

That's the thing - it's gone too far the other way by making people sign. Checks sould be compulsory, but on a more casual level ie. it's still your ass you're responsible for, noone else.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or you're loose, its how drunk you get.

[Bruno 0]

......I also heard the camera man exit with with no rig story. Truth or myth I don't know. But a scary thought.
Rich M
I saw the video of that man, between pull time and impact was terrible!!
Bruno

[skymedic 0]

there was a camera guy who jumped on a plane last year at SDC without a rig.....he then took a little while off after that.....from what I hear...
Cheers....vasbyt
marc
"I have no fear of falling, I just hate hitting the ground"-The Badlees...

[quade 4]

Quote

I also heard the camera man exit with with no rig story.

It's happened at least once, so it ain't no myth.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[billvon 2,990]

>I don't mean to be contradictory. But our sport is governed by rules.
Not really. We have few of them compared to other sports, and very, very few are laws - they are just guidelines set forth by a non-governmental organization. We're pretty unregulated.
>A mandatory gear check would undoughtably save a lot of lives.
I just checked 2001 as an example. One jumper may have been saved by a mandatory gear check (premature deployment.) In the same year, 7 would have been saved by mandatory 1:1 loaded 7-cells instead of smaller canopies, 5 would have been saved by mandatory AAD's/RSL's, and 4 may have been saved by mandatory Catapult reserve-PC assists.
So if saving lives is your goal, gear checks pale in comparison to getting people off tiny canopies, or mandating RSL's/AAD's. Ask yourself if you would be in favor of something like that. If not, why not? Is saving lives always the most important thing?
>And why would it be such a hardship on anyone?
Poor gear checkers can do more harm than good, and may actually cause mals (almost happened to me twice.) It may slow down loads, such that teams like Airspeed can only make 8 training jumps in a day instead of 12, or big record attempts take another hour per load. It may effectively ground some people if no one competent to gear check a legal but old rig can be found. It will give lawyers another way to sue. It will increase paperwork at USPA, and thus increase dues and/or take away from more important endeavors.
And finally, it will put the responsibility for a jumper's gear on someone else instead of the jumper. That's the big one for me.
>A friend of mine has over 6,000 jumps and had to pull his reserve last year
>because his throw out handle was stuffed in so deep he couldn't get it out.
Then shame on him. He should know better, and should have either checked himself better or gotten a gear check.
>I don't think anyone is too good for a gear check.
Of course not. I've caught problems on people with 2000+ jumps. Oddly, I managed to do that even though gear checks are not mandatory. The system seems to work as it is, most of the time.
-bill von

[DickMcMahon 0]

Man, don't scare me like that. I can't afford to lose
a skydiving buddie!
website: http://www.dickmcmahon.com

[tlshealy 0]

As a jumper who after a few years out of the sport, and now becoming active again, have found myself being asked to do a pin check on someone in the plane and wondering, "now where are the pins on this thing and how do these tuck tabs work" so I'm not sure how much good a pin check in the aircraft is doing. Personally, my gear is older and I really don't want anybody messing with my flaps behind my back on the aircraft. Plus with the differences in rigs and sizes of canopies and containers, if you don't get a flap closed up properly, you may cause it to come open in freefall. When I as on the Army parachute team, we always did gear checks, but we could stand up in the plane, we all had the same gear, we knew each other and we always dumped at 2000'. But now I'd just prefer to check my stuff when I pack and gear up, of course if I see something funky on someones gear, or someone sees something on mine you should point it out. But mandatory gear checks would be hard to enforce and I'm not sure how much good they would do.
Just my $.02
BSBD
Tad

[steve1 5]

Bill,
Good point. There probably are a lot of legal ramifications that would go along with mandatory gear checks. Maybe that is why such a rule hasn't been put into effect in this country. To be an instructor, jump master, dropzone owner, or to even give a gear check could be a risky thing now days. I wish we didn't have such a sue-happy legal system.

In the future many jumpers may be conducting conversations similiar to these: "If anyone wants a gear check from me we'll have to do it in private. That way if something goes wrong it's my word against yours,"..... or "If you want a gear check, I'll have to consult my lawyer first,"......Or "If you want a gear check, I have to decline on the grounds that it may incriminate me,"....Or, "If you want a gear check, you will need to sign a five page legal document first,"..... (Maybe someone should start a thread for ideas on how to change our screwed up legal system). Steve