speedy 0 #51 December 14, 2005 It's not surprising that the 45 degree rule is still being used by people when it is taught to students at one of the biggest dropzones in the world. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #52 December 14, 2005 QuoteIt's not surprising that the 45 degree rule is still being used by people when it is taught to students at one of the biggest dropzones in the world. Another reason why a bigger drop zone does not necessarily equate to a a safer drop zone for students, with superior student training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #53 December 14, 2005 You'd be suprised - from my jazz and classical background, most people CAN'T count to ten and be within 15 percent of the actual 10th second. Counting is tough to do, especially when the least bit of adrenaline is involved. Simply put, COUNT SLOW (-: -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #54 December 15, 2005 You're right, some people count fast and some people count slow. (I always counted fast as a student; once I figured this out, I just picked numbers 30% higher and it all worked out for me.) If I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first. And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #55 December 15, 2005 I have read the responses and yet to hear your solution as to WHAT the general rule of thumb should be. I have used both time and visuals dependent on winds on jump run. This type of thread gets so out of hand and way off the subject that no one knows what the hell to think. I have never taken a protractor with me to use @ jump run. There are two many varibles to say "get out @ 45d" I think it's just a good point in a perfect world. Alot of the ppl out there (dropzone.com) have alot of talent but I am starting to think that maybe I have drifted into a defense attorneys forum. PS: do you think an RSL is a good choice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #56 December 15, 2005 QuoteI have read the responses and yet to hear your solution as to WHAT the general rule of thumb should be. Go to post 9 of this thread.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #57 December 15, 2005 off topic but i have this exit on video - a three way sit of us. i tell the solo sit behind me give us 10 seconds on that particular day given the winds etc. in the video, i count THREEEEEEE and see him exiting. 3. three. We discussed it needless to say once on firma. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #58 December 15, 2005 QuoteYou're right, some people count fast and some people count slow. (I always counted fast as a student; once I figured this out, I just picked numbers 30% higher and it all worked out for me.) If I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first. And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP. Stick on digital timer by the door, less than $10... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #59 December 15, 2005 Surprising enough there are way less fatalities due to separation between groups. Are you looking for a clear/bulletproof answer on how to judge separation? One way that I know has worked well is having an jumprun coordinator in the aircraft(call'm what you want,you get the idea)hav'nt seen this method done in years. Mr.Mullins has done well with taking full responsibilty as the pilot in command. Todays young skydivers not only scare me when they go out after me, also have very little experience in spotting. Billvon's /2 may work well. I'll give that thought as i judge separation between my group and the next. Seems each day has it's very own perfect scenario for separation. Usually the amount of time between groups is said among jumpers and sometimes by manifest,usually after a jumper complains about the separation given on their previous jump. Please help me to understand, just what is the latest strategy for separation? Was time, 45 degrees, what is the proper use of terms regarding separation to tell jumpers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canedraw4 0 #60 December 16, 2005 QuoteQuote The only thing that proves a theory is observation. That's quite an epistemological theory you've got there. How would you prove it? word of the day............epistemological Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwpj 0 #61 December 20, 2005 QuoteIf I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first. And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stick on digital timer by the door, less than $10 ... i just don't see alot of seperation issues resulting from using flawed systems, but i do see those issues more often with flawed execution, specifically the lack of attention given to insuring seperation no matter what system is used. a digital timer just gives some people a different thing to ignore. i swear that some people get so amped right before exit that if you handcuffed them to the airplane and told them you would give them the key in eight seconds, they would gnaw their arm off and exit in two. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin. options: it does a body good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #62 December 20, 2005 "i swear that some people get so amped right before exit that if you handcuffed them to the airplane and told them you would give them the key in eight seconds, they would gnaw their arm off and exit in two." i love it. my new sig. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #63 December 20, 2005 Quote...i just don't see alot of seperation issues resulting from using flawed systems, but i do see those issues more often with flawed execution... Ah, well stated. Anyway, Kallend & Et All, Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used? ... probably means a new thread... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,063 #64 December 20, 2005 >Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used? Time. If you don't want to think, use 10 seconds. Works 90% of the time. If you want to do a tiny bit of thinking, always use at least 6-7 seconds. If uppers are strong, and you're flying into them, then wait (uppers/2) seconds. (Uppers/3) works better for faster planes (CASA, King Air.) If you want to do more math, then the exact separation you will get it (winds at opening altitude + aircraft groundspeed) * seconds. If winds at opening altitude are 20kts (33 feet per second) and the aircraft is flying with a groundspeed of 70 knots (117 feet per second) then waiting 7 seconds will give you 1050 feet of separation. (Assuming all speeds into the wind, winds same direction.) If you really just want to look at something, look at the ground, wait until you have covered 1000 feet, then go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #65 December 20, 2005 QuoteFailing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used? Refer back to post #9 in this thread,specifically the attached Excel spreadsheet."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #66 December 21, 2005 Quote>Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used? Time. If you don't want to think, use 10 seconds. Works 90% of the time. If you want to do a tiny bit of thinking, always use at least 6-7 seconds. If uppers are strong, and you're flying into them, then wait (uppers/2) seconds. (Uppers/3) works better for faster planes (CASA, King Air.) If you want to do more math, then the exact separation you will get it (winds at opening altitude + aircraft groundspeed) * seconds. If winds at opening altitude are 20kts (33 feet per second) and the aircraft is flying with a groundspeed of 70 knots (117 feet per second) then waiting 7 seconds will give you 1050 feet of separation. (Assuming all speeds into the wind, winds same direction.) If you really just want to look at something, look at the ground, wait until you have covered 1000 feet, then go. What he said.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #67 December 21, 2005 Is it worth the added complication of leaving more time after an 8-10 way than after a 4-way? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #68 December 21, 2005 QuoteIs it worth the added complication of leaving more time after an 8-10 way than after a 4-way? AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! "Pull Low for Safety" *runs away* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #69 December 25, 2005 I first read this post a while back and was easily able to agree that the 45 degree rule is mathmatically impossible. Last weekend I got ready to do my first solo after AFF and I asked one of my Instructors what seperation I should give on that load and low and behold one of the up jumpers over heard me and all the way to alltitude I had to hear how the 45 degree rule worked and how I should not count or listen to my instructor, just watch for the 45 degree angle. In an effort to not come off as the stucent telling the up jumper how things work, I just set quitly until it was my turn to COUNT. The guy went in the group ahead of me so I did not have to listen to him tell me I did it wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #70 December 25, 2005 You should print out the important posts and the excel spreadsheet that is cited in this thread and anonymously give it to that person. ALso, maybe post it at your DZ. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejunky 0 #71 January 2, 2006 Trying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #72 January 2, 2006 QuoteTrying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion! Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,063 #73 January 2, 2006 >Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it. They will reply "I trust my EYES and not some dead guy's formula!" (I've had this argument about a dozen times.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #74 January 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteTrying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion! Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it. A condescending reply such as that will do nothing to get them to see the light. They will be less likely to want to listen to you when you do explain the principles in a way they can understand. So you're smarter than most jumpers when it comes to physics, but the DZ is not your classroom, other jumpers are not your students.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #75 January 3, 2006 I was making some jumps at Perris last week. When the winds picked up they advised everyone, using the loudspeaker of course, to use the 45 degree rule."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
