DB Cooper

[low_pull1 2]

it be nice if Carr could provide all the Sns.

hope the looters dont find the body first...or the container and make off with the sns !

[1969912 0]

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well for starters, the jump pilot at the dz (or any dz) would have been required to wear such a rig if the door was removed.(and just good commonsense to wear one given the nature of the activity involvedand the subsequent dangers to the aircraft)that is why there was such a rig on hand.

Thanks dumstuntzz. That makes sense. Could have been a dedicated pilot rig. Why it was selected when Cooper's demand was for "sport rigs with reserves" (not a quote) is curious.
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EDIT: FWIW, I just found this in an article on aero.com. The info appears to be from a book by someone named Gunther:

"The parachute center in Issaquah provided the two chest packs and Earl Cossey, a parachuting instructor at the Issaquah drop zone as well as an FAA Master Parachute Rigger, contacted at his nearby home, brought two back-type rigs from his parachute workshop there and delivered them to the parachute school." http://www.aero.com/publications/parachutes/9602/pc0296.htm


If the above is true, then Mr. Cossey (Master Rigger, jump instructor) knew exactly what back container/harness/canopy systems he was giving to Cooper, i.e., he knew about the lack of belly reserve attach points on one of the harnesses (if true). Not sure why he provided gear from his loft and not from the DZ. Could be the DZ simply didn't have ready rigs sitting there.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[skyjack71 0]

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it be nice if Carr could provide all the Sns.

hope the looters dont find the body first...or the container and make off with the sns !

I agree. I am just waiting to see what they come up with. If it is Coopers chute - then the FBI needs to do several things.

1. Do an extensive search for Duane L. Weber - fingerprints. This mean pulling all of the old prints to compare with what is in the system. In 1968 the corruption within the system was wide spread and not all prints were checked against the warehoused prints unless there was some doubt.

Remember - corruption in the state system at that time. Weber was released as John C. Collins from the Jefferson State Prison in March of 1968...and was never incarcerated again...yet, he continued to commit crimes - and prints left at these scenes caused NO red flags...when they should have.

2. Think about the DNA. There is not one report that the tie that was found in the seat next to where Cooper was sitting - was ever on Coopers' person. The tie was removed from the evidence room and taken out of state by an FBI agent to present to McCoys family...as per the agents book. Note, that the cigarette butts have not been seen in yrs - did they disappear around that same time?

There are too many unanswered question regarding that tie and the validity of the DNA. The tie without the butts is the same as NO evidence at all in a court of law.

3. Find out what Weber was doing from 1945 to 1951. Where was he and who was he and what kind of work was he doing? Also did the FBI ever check out the aviation employment from Ca. that I provided to them...?

Ckret, you are lofting and you did not return my call so I am posting here for all to see. Remember that if Duane is NOT Cooper - he knew who Cooper was - otherwise there would be NO way he could have walked me thru this...and remember that my story has stayed the same since 1996 when I first contacted the FBI. I am not a psychic...but, I do have an ability to remember things that others just let go of...except my age and health have caught up with me.

Let's Get On Down the Road...I got things to do and places to go. Duane's favorite expression. Maybe you should talk to Tina about that.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[itllclear 1]

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Cooper's demand was for "sport rigs with reserves"

I thought Cooper's demand was for "two back chutes and two front chutes."

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[377 22]

I am not a rigger but I jumped a lot of surplus gear back in the late 60s. I had some really hard pulls with sleeved 28 ft C9s packed in non extended containers that were made for 28 ft canopies. After I got an extended container pulls were normal. I can only imagine how hard a pull you'd get with a 28 ft canopy in an NB6 container. Add night, fear, bad weather, high speed, inexperience, instability etc and the odds of a successful jump go down, way down.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[ltdiver 3]

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Mark, are the back reserves the kind a Navy pilot would use in a bail-out situation? Seems that I remember Carr stating something like that in one of his interviews.

And if so, are they anything like the rigs worn today by pilots as bail-out rigs? Soft and eas(ier) to sit on hour after hour.

To your first question: yes. To your second question: sort of.

Mark

Post revisited.

It's logical then, to me (not a rigger) that if the 'back rigs' were ones that Navy pilots used to bail out of crippled planes, that they would very obviously NOT have attachment points for chest mounts. Why have a 'reserve parachute' backed up with another 'reserve parachute'? They're normally single canopy rigs. Can you even imagine a pilot trying to fly with a chest mount reserve in place?

edit to add link to NB6 rig found on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/US-Navy-NB6-Parachute_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ26440QQihZ005QQitemZ150080385359QQtcZphoto

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[1969912 0]

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Cooper's demand was for "sport rigs with reserves"

I thought Cooper's demand was for "two back chutes and two front chutes."

I said: ""sport rigs with reserves" (not a quote)".
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I have no idea what his exact words were, and I've seen his demands paraphrased in several ways. What he actually said was passed from stewardess(es) to the flight deck crew, from them to ATC (or more likely radioed to the airline), and from there to the cops, FBI, etc. The only people who know exactly what he said are those who heard him directly. Here's an example:

Cooper initially asked for (quoting froom Wikipedia entry) "two main back chutes and two emergency chest chutes". The reference cited says this: "...two sets of parachutes (two backpacks and two chestpacks, which serve as emergency backups)".

I like "two parachute rigs with reserves". Better yet, "two rigs with reserves".

Here's where my reference to "sport" comes from. There were two demands from Cooper regarding the parachutes. The initial demand was for two rigs with reserves. Someone (FBI or local cops) contacted nearby McChord AFB and they agreed to provide military gear. A later message from Cooper (in response to being told military gear was on its way?) said that he wouldn't accept military gear - only civilian rigs. Since the only civilian parachute systems I know of which utilize reserves are sport parachuting gear, I used the term "sport rig".

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

It was pretty well established by Ckret on the old thread that all Cooper ever asked for was 4 parachutes; "two front packs, two back packs". He implied that the "main and reserve" commands were myth. It's assumed that in asking for two front-type and two back-type that Cooper was actually wanting main and reserves, but the FBI was worried about him taking hostages with the parachutes, so perhaps they were aware that all four parachutes were reserves when they handed them over in the first place.

[Orange1 0]

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I am not a rigger but I jumped a lot of surplus gear back in the late 60s. I had some really hard pulls with sleeved 28 ft C9s packed in non extended containers that were made for 28 ft canopies. After I got an extended container pulls were normal. I can only imagine how hard a pull you'd get with a 28 ft canopy in an NB6 container. Add night, fear, bad weather, high speed, inexperience, instability etc and the odds of a successful jump go down, way down.

This point of view seems to be getting consensus among those who have jumped these canopies. Be interesting to see if there is indeed a body down there that was the reason the canopy couldn't be pulled all the way out...
Of course if it happens to be the dummy... it tells us very little more than what we already knew - that the dummy got chucked out the plane at some point, and that the flight line was where the FBI thought it was.

Does anyone have any idea who might have owned this piece of land in 1971?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

One more thing... if there is a harness at least down there, does anyone have any idea if it would still be possible to test for DNA after all that time? If there is a body presumably they could. In either case... IF it was one of Cooper's canopies of course... it would be interesting to see if any DNA that might be extracted, matches that found on the tie.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[redlegphi 0]

Unless there's a body, I'd say DNA won't help at all. Even with a body, the DNA may have broken down and decomposed. Also, I seriously doubt that any fingerprints on anything are going to survive over three decades in the ground.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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It was pretty well established by Ckret on the old thread that all Cooper ever asked for was 4 parachutes; "two front packs, two back packs". He implied that the "main and reserve" commands were myth. It's assumed that in asking for two front-type and two back-type that Cooper was actually wanting main and reserves, but the FBI was worried about him taking hostages with the parachutes, so perhaps they were aware that all four parachutes were reserves when they handed them over in the first place.

See the attached images from the transcript.

The flight went “wheels-off” at 3:07 PM PST.

At 3:13 the pilot advised Flt Ops they were being hijacked and the demand for two Back-Pack Chutes.

Between 3:13 and 3:57 PM there are communications about the location and physical description of the hijacker, meals for the crew and other logistics. There is no mention of a request for “Chest-packs”.

At 3:57 PM Flt Ops advises they already have the Back-packs and are waiting for the Chest-Packs.

I have checked the transcript of the conversations with Approach Control and they all address navigation issues, there was no mention of additional demands.

So, what do you think about this? When was the “often quoted” request for two back chutes and two front chutes made? Is the publically-released version of the transcript different from the "Real" transcript? Did the FBI or other Law Enforcement decide he needed the front-packs as a stalling method?

Sluggo_Monster
Always willing to answer a question and create 10 more in the process.

Web Page
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[Orange1 0]

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Unless there's a body, I'd say DNA won't help at all. Even with a body, the DNA may have broken down and decomposed. Also, I seriously doubt that any fingerprints on anything are going to survive over three decades in the ground.

From a local case, I understand that it is possible to extract DNA from old bones but that it is quite a tricky process. I'm sure there is absolutely no chance of fingerprints!!

Edited to add - a quick google search yielded this abstract - if they can do it on ancient bones, a 30-odd year old corpse should be doable!!

Quote

We describe a simple method for extracting polymerase chain reaction-amplifiable DNA from ancient bones without the use of organic solvents. Bone powders are digested with proteinase K, and the DNA is purified directly using silica-based spin columns (QIAquickTM, QIAGEN). The efficiency of this protocol is demonstrated using human bone samples ranging in age from 15 to 5,000 years old. Am J Phys Anthropol 105:539-543, 1998. © 1998 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[novalis 0]

tim,
please let me come in with a few general remarks. would appreciate your thoughts -- and thoughts of others .

there sometimes seems to me to be almost two different discussions of cooper. one concerns the hijacker, the other the jumper. the first was obviously very bold and had thought through what he was doing. (ordering the specific type of parachute. had informed himself about how long it took to refuel. etc. in short, evidence that he had prepared for the day. -- it was in my view a coincidence that someone tried the same thing 14 days eariler. cooper did not prepare this thing in 13 days.)
but when we get to the jump a lot of people start talking about how naive he was. i do not believe it. ( i do not say he survived-- i don't know of course). i see no reason why the bold but prudent hijacker suddenly transforms into the headless sky diver.

it occurs to me that he is alone in the cabin after the second take off. does one really know what he was wearing when he jumped? could he have had other clothing with him etc?. good that is speculation. but i still do not see how he can be so organized for the hijacking and depend on so much "luck" for the jump. certainly he took a gr eat risk and may have died; but i think he knew he was taking the risk.

one other point. you are interested in the man after the event. what interests me is the man who plans and carries it out. he is proud, he wants to pit his wit and will against a large organized group of people. there is a "social showdown" and then he pits his wit and skill against nature. no the man may have overextended himself. but he didn't leave anything to chance.

[ltdiver 3]

Very interesting. Operative word "THE" chest packs. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=97526; Sounds like -someone- ordered them, but now Ckret might help us delineate WHO.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[novalis 0]

my last note was a bit rambling because i hit the wrong button and posted before i wanted to. sorry.

my main points are:

there seem to be two coopers in the general literature: the well organized hijacker and the naive sky jumper. i think one should go on the assumption that the jumper had informed himself (and practiced) before taking the leap. whether he overestimated his chances or not is another question, but i think he knew what he was getting into when he jumped.
the man pitted his wit and will against the social world in the hijacking, his wit and will against nature in the jump.
is he vain? over confident?
did the fbi read him this way? is that why they insisted that he was dead? in the hope that his vanity would lead him to give a "sign" that they could follow up on?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

If you ever post before you wanted to, you can always go back and edit your statements. Just use the edit link at the top of your post.

I think I get what you're saying... there's two Coopers that are portrayed: a cunning crafty thief who was organized enough to pull this off and the idiot who didn't know what he was getting himself into.

My personal opinion is that he was a little of both. I think he was a little over his head, but it's undeniable that he was shrewd and borderline genius in what he did. When we discuss Cooper's likely background or knowledge, we're really splitting hairs to get a more accurate profile of him.

You are correct. They have insisted that he died. That insistence is beginning to wain, not so much from the parachute but from the extensive discussion that has taken place on this website.

Whether or not this turns out to be Cooper's canopy is really immaterial to the facts already established. There's really very few ways for the money to get to its discovery point naturally, and the few ways are widdled down to almost nothing at this point.

While everyone on this thread continues to hold onto the no-pull or "impossible to pull" idea, the actual facts suggest otherwise. One either accepts this, or accepts a conspiracy involving someone finding the ransom and dumping it 12 miles away.

Orange1,
We can find out who owned the property if we can conclude for sure where this parachute was found. I'd have to dig in some records when I'm back in Clark County next time (not until August), but it could be done... I could also get a family member to do this for me. I know exactly where to look in the records. It's the same way I found the discovery point of the $$.

[novalis 0]

thanks for your reply.

my interest in assuming (one doesn't know) that cooper was pretty competent is that it leads to other hypotheses. with the two cooper notions everything unravels at the jump. if one assumes that the jump-cooper was as competent as the hijack-cooper, one might begin to ask different questions concerning the jump.
( i don't knw that my questions are the most pertinent that could be asked, but to give an example of what i mean:)
if he knows so much about the plane-- he knows for example how long it takes to fuel, he asked that the flaps be put at a certain angle, etc.) does he also know that it can't get to mexico that way? if this is the case he delibertly provokes a conversation with the crew that he knows will give him the option that he is really seeking. (they give him several desitnations and several routes, he seems to choose one at random. but was it at random, or was this to throw off the suspicion that he really wanted to go exactly where he jumped? knowing the altitude and the approx. speed and keeping track of the time, did he jump somewhere where, with a radio, he could call his accomplice to heip?) such questions, and as i say, maybe more pertinent ones, are generated by assuming that the man knew what he was doing. (again, i do not mean to say that nothing went wrong. but i don't think he just jumped out in the blue anymore than his conduct during the hijacking seems to imply a man who was "playing it by ear". he was, i think, playing according to a plan. to reduce him to the novice jumper is to spare oneself the effort of playing through various possibilities of what the plan was.
were the conditions under which he jumped difficult/very difficult/impossible for a man with experience? is there a consensus on this?

[DJL 235]

The farmer who owns the property found the frozen remains of DB, put the money in a safe spot, buried the canopy and buried the body somewhere else.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Albert18 0]

I agree with what you are saying Novalis.

I don't live all that far from where they hold the Sturgis motorcycle rally. During rally week I see people riding down the road wearing helmets and clothes and leather so that not one speck of skin shows. I also see riders tooling down the interstate at 80mph with no shirt and no helmet. Last year I even saw a guy with no helmet, no shirt, and not even any glasses, going 75mph. Would it be accurate to say those people riding around with helmets and completely covered are the experienced, expert riders and these guys with no helmets and skin everywhere are the naive, inexperienced riders?

I don't think so.

All it tells you is that people are different and assess risk differently.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

DJL,

I said it once. I'll say it again.

As crazy as it sounds, that's a legit theory.

novalis,
"if he knows so much about the plane... does he also know that it can't get to mexico that way?"

It depends on how he obtained his knowledge. If he was a pilot, then it's absolutely reasonable. If he obtained his knowledge second-hand (books or someone) then he may not have figured out the extra drag would have prohibited the plane from reaching Mexico without refueling. There's also an assumption here that gets flushed out after the fact. Cooper did not go to Mexico and didn't go to Reno either. He jumped about a half hour into the flight south, which would imply his intent was to never go that far. He either didn't know it would require a refueling or he didn't think about it, or both. Whichever one you think represents Cooper will have some implications of who he was and what his expertise may have been. Him purposely appearing to have made a mistake in his calculations/asumptions just to throw off authorities just doesn't pass the smell test with me... but certainly it could not be ruled out.

he seems to choose one at random

Many of us have wanted to know exactly what was said in the exchange between William Rataczak and Dan Cooper. All we know is that they "went back and forth" and agreed upon Reno. To infer significant meaning out this would be shaky at best without something else to support a derived contention.

with a radio, he could call his accomplice to heip

Absolutely a good thought. I've wondered this myself. I do not believe it was the case, however. Cooper had a case with an apparent bomb and a paper sack with nothing substantial in it (meaning contents weren't big, bulky, or heavy).

is there a consensus on this?

There is no consensus. Some have said all he had to do was pull the rip cord. Some have said it would be hard to find the rip cord. Others have said it would be extremely hard to pull the rip cord. Yet some base their opinion on making it out after the landing and others base their opinion on the jump itself. I've tried to abstain from this aspect, because there's a way to back into likely scenarios just in analyzing the recovered ransom.

[Orange1 0]

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were the conditions under which he jumped difficult/very difficult/impossible for a man with experience? is there a consensus on this?

There's been a lot of discussion on this (if you go back through this and the locked thread) on which I would tend for obvious reaons to prefer the opinions of the older experienced jumpers who either have experience jumping rounds, or jumping a jet, or both. The consensus seems to have been that not just the jump but the conditions would have been very difficult, even for an experienced jumper - it has also been pointed out that for example a relatively minor landing injury such as a broken ankle could end up being fatal under the circumstances. A trained paratrooper would have had experience in jumping with a load, in bad weather, into rough terrain. An experienced skydiver could have made it if luck came together. I haven't seen any of the guys who should know who thinks an inexperienced jumper had a good chance of survival. Now add to that the 2 recent opinions that if it was indeed a 28 stuffed into an NB6 it would have been a very hard pull.

There are still people who seem to think, despite all that the experienced jumpers have tried to give their honest opinion, that a novice could have got lucky and made it. For those of us who trust experience in this one, we are then left with the fact that there are very few named suspects who would have had a reasonable chance of survival, the two being Christiansen and Mayfield. Christiansen seems to be disqualified on the basis of description. Mayfield..there has been a big debate, I can't quite remember what the main 'disqualification' criteria were, but he certainly doesn't seem to have suddenly had a lot more money than he had before. When Jo Weber first came onto these forums it was with the express purpose of trying to place Duane in a parachute - that is something that has still not been done (and seems to sometimes have been rather conveniently forgotten along the way).

If any of the older jumpers has in fact suggested a novice could have made it and I have missed that -I apologise, and please correct me if that's the case.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[capnastropants 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

you've probably already read this but i found it interesting and just in case you hadnt read it here it is.

i also think that it has an accurate description of the new "evidence" and how it was found.

We choose to do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard, to push the envelope, to break free, to make what was once impossible possible.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Has there been anyone on this thread that has ever suggested that Cooper was a total wuffo?

I can't recall any.

Three primary suspects are known to have jump experience. Weber's experience or inexperience has not been shown nor proven in anyway. There has been some hearsay to suggest Weber had some exposure to parachutes at some point.

If there is a consensus, it would be that Cooper had some experience with parachutes and/or skydiving to some capacity. It's highly unlikely that Cooper would be a complete "novice".

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you for the post capnastropants.

The additional information on the parachute find is dependent on your understanding of how it happened. The wikipedia writer implied that the canopy came directly from the ground. My understanding was that it came from the pile of dirt that was bulldozed... but I'm just assuming.