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quade

DB Cooper

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:) Hear loud and clear about the "perception is reality" "mode" on here... :S thanks for trying again anyway

now, if this has been mentioned before i missed it entirely - it does have big implications...
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Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't.


Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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Ckret,
Welcome back!

He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve.

I had a feeling that's what Cossey was talking about when he said "Cooper's choice of harness"... there was never really any mention of what that pink parachute he cut up was.

8:15 to 8:20

Really???!!!!

When you get some time, we should all go over that timeline more thoroughly. It's absolutely vital.

We have to find the farthest northwest location that the bag could have landed and emptied into the Washougal Water Shed, keeping in mind the 77 flood.

I can give you this point. You just need some skill with a map. Digital will be the easiest way to find it, or send a PM to sluggo (the map god).

There are several proximate points, it just depends on what your priority is (North or West).

If you'll recall, I traced the outer region of the Washougal watershed. I took the outermost points to create a perimeter, or boundary.

The northern most boundary point is WR2 (WR1 would be in Skamania).
WR2 =
N 45 43 26.23 W 122 15 47.34
The elevation is roughly 2,630 ft.

The NW corner of the boundary would WR6 =
N 45 42 33.38 N 122 19 51.79
The elevation is roughly 1,885 ft

The closest NW boundary point to the flight path would be WR9 =
N 45 41 49.76 W 122 21 00.48
The elevation is roughly 1,639

next we have to drop a canvass bag of money from 10,000 feet and see how far it travels under conditions.

We can probably figure that out without dropping it from a plane. We will need to get some experts in calculating fall rates and drift distance verses wind speeds. We know its weight and its volume (surface area), the rest should be academic.

if they were alive after 11/71 they can be ruled out

If you've gotten that far in the investigation, I'm eager to hear all about it. ;)

Again, welcome back Ckret.

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We have some breaks in the case to go over and actually I am surprised none of you caught it. Now more than ever I believe Cooper lost his money in the air and screwed into the ground without ever pulling.

AND

Cooper had a choice when he picked which chutes to use in his jump, two belly reserves and two back reserves. Which one he chooses speaks volumes to his experience and knowledge of what he was getting himself into.

When faced with which belly reserve he was going to use and which he was going to cut up, he chose to cut up the good one. The other belly reserve was marked with X's and would have been "soft" to the touch when handled



Well I think your wrong,

1. if he takes a sport rig (assuming he knew it was) that tips off the FBI he is a jumper.

2. He can't be sure what is in the Pioneer rig and needs to count on a one shot at it opening and a bail out rig would provide a better chance of not having a mal.

3. He never opened the rigs as far as we know to repack them. I would have, to CYA and a jet has the room to do it.

4. He needs strong rope to tie the money bag, the good reserve had it, and the fake one might or might not have, as a jumper yes the X would stand out and to me I wouldn't waste the time to mess with my plan, I would go to the good one and cut the 550 cord out of it. I would also throw out the dummy chest container, for the simple fact that in 1971 skydiving was very small world, the more I make you think I don't know what the hell I'm doing the better. So I take the NB6 and the chest marked X, it tells you I'm not a jumper.

5. 550 is very strong and if tied the right way that jet blast is not going to rip it off him unless it cut him in half.

6. You assume too much, that a jet jump like that wouldn't be survivable. If this person was a jumper in the military and or sport, he would know how to exit the back and ride out the wind blast and tumble through it, slow down, roll over, get stable & pull. An exit from 10K would provide ample time to do so.

I'm not even so sure your right about his military service. I too think he was in the service, only in S.E. Asia between 1965 & 1970 and was a special forces / black op's trained, a person not worried about the odds being against him and having the skills to make it over night in the weather and hide from ground searchers with ease.

He had jump exp. and knew better then to take the good stuff to keep you (FBI) guessing. I think he had no problem finding the ripcord and pulling it, another reason to take the chest marked X was for fabric to use as cover or warmth or a tent and to keep you thinking he was a retard.

It would make sense to bury all the canopies and containers, that is what airborne and special forces operating behind the lines would do to cover their "footprint". If he got away with it and lived I think he went back to S.E. Aisa and has been there the whole time minus the 5k that was found, planted or dropped.

I don't think this was a half assed plan by a wuffo who didn't think out his every move. This is one reason why I find it hard to believe D. Webber was cooper, based on his past troubles with the law tends to show his just not that bright and able to pull it off without getting busted.

I doubt this is one of the canopies from that night, although I will wait to see your findings as you have all the details at hand. Thanks for taking the time to post your views, I like many others look forward to your findings that might prove us all wrong!

Good luck.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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on the relationship to the crew:
as a pilot are you aware of any sop during a hijacking; for example the pilot does not leave the cockpit to talk to the hijacker: his place is in the cabin, it would upset the passengers to see it etc.? again if my sources are right, not all the passengers knew there was a hijacking going on. this can be attributed to conduct of the crew and the hijacker? nobody wanted panic.

after the passengers have left communication continues through the stewerdess. was this a demand of the hijacker? did he feel more secure with a young woman than with a pilot's presence? a pilot might be able to overwelm him etc.



Dear Sir: If we answered all of your question this site would be repetitive with the other site that was shut down. Read the locked site and MOST if not ALL of your questions will be answered. Also read these books:

D.B. Cooper Dead or Alive, Norjak, D.B. Cooper -What Really Happened and HA,HA,HA written by no less than D.B.Cooper...it is a riot.

The skyjumpers who on the site are trying to figure out the logistics of the jump itself and most of your questions have already been answered and discussed...the focus at this time is the Chute found near Amboy.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Maybe Weber suddenly left CO and his 'good' job because he was embezzling the firm he was working for (which is why he seemed to be doing so well) and realized he was about to be found out, and needed to get out of there fast.



Orange this is the quote that I referred to as a DIG.

1. Duane did not handle money and this Company rehired Duane 2 yrs later and made him the State manager. He was always the leader in sales of everything he did - he just had to keep looking over his shoulder because ex-cons cannot hold an insurance license.

As for the Tongue in Cheek expression I accept your apology as not everyone understands my personality...and I have tried not to post recently because I am very sensitive right now.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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can we assume that he asked for the sum of $200,000 in 20s because he knew something about parachuting from a plane carrying a load with him? that is my assumption.



Per Himmelsbach - Cooper did not specify denominations.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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stratostar,

It's nice to have you back too... I know you didn't go anywhere, but just hadn't posted in a long time.

I absolutely LOVE hearing skydivers debate the ins and outs of the jump.

They will do a simulated jump on the unsolved history show on Discovery tonight... it might provide some fodder for discussion (what assumptions they made, what was good, bad, etc).

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1) using logic, you take the best you have to survive the jump. If not why do it. No matter which chute you take the FBI is going to think you are a jumper.

2) He can't be sure of what is in either rig because he never repacked.

4) Why would you destroy the good belly reserve and take the demo, you may need the reserve on the way down? If Cooper is methodical he would have thought, "let me take a look in this demo before I destroy something I may need." (can't have it both ways, he either planned it well all the way through or bumbled)

6) He knew Tacoma from the air and McChord with distances to Seattle locations. Air flight in 71 was not common for most. To be able to spots cities from the air that blend into one another points to repeated air travel. He most likely got in the military, flying over the area.

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It makes no sense to throw only one.



It makes sense if it made Cooper mad -.
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Cooper was in the military during the time frame of 1946 to 1951, give or take a few years. He was stationed out of McChord or Ft Lewis. He served on an air crew in some capacity and received cursory training in emergency exit (which is why he chose the military chute over the obvious choice, it was all he knew).



Your time frame is right - but maybe Cooper was NOT the service at that time - but he was in the area and exposed to the information he needed...such as the famed jumpers stationed at Pendleton.
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After leaving the military, he was employed in the airline industry but not in any fashion that would give him detailed knowledge but general knowledge of a planes. Most likely as a contractor for Boeing.



Maybe having a bother who was a consultant for Boeing for many yrs including the war and afterwards.
Having all of the Boeing schematics available to you would be helpful.
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He jumps and the pressure bump is felt by the crew, but not at 8:11 more around 8:15 to 8:20. The bag of money Cooper tied to him is instantly ripped from his waist as he tumbles. Cooper, not expecting the forces of the jump, desperately tries to pull the handle but he can't find it, panics and no pulls.



So the FBI cannot prove their story without changing the time line - HOW and WHY would the FBI do that? You are making a lot of statements - and changing facts - the jump time - there are too many documents over the yrs and the records of the similation to do that...IF the time was wrong...it would have been NOTED yrs ago. To move that time line that much - this screams cover-up to squash the public opinion and get this sequel over and out.
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The theory on the money and it's discovery by natural means in 1980 go here and I do believe it is the most solid.



This is exactly what I mean - to get rid of all of the speculation -the FBI has to change the time line to make it work. This smells of a WASH to get the Cooper incident out of the public eye because of all the time and money it has cost them.
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Now what?

Once we have that list, find all from 5'10 to 6'1 brown hair, brown eyes. Then a quick background, if they were alive after 11/71 they can be ruled out. If they disappeared after 1971 then we have a suspect.



It would be CHEAPER and FASTER to do the work on Weber that has been requested over and over.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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I need to correct my previous posts about what parachutes Cooper had. I wrote that he had two back-type reserves, 1 chest-type reserve, and 1 dummy chest-type. Based on Ckret's posts, Cooper in fact had: 1 back-type reserve (the NB-6), 1 back-mounted sport main (the Pioneer), 1 chest-type reserve, and 1 dummy.

The reason the change is important is that the Pioneer sport system would have had rings on the front to accommodate the chest-type reserve. Cooper passed on the opportunity to use a two-parachute system with a steerable main, and instead chose to destroy the chest reserve and jump a single-parachute system.

Mark

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Ckret,
One of the biggest question marks is the money bag.

We've heard all kinds of ideas about it... no top, zippered top, waterproof, water resistant, not air tight but wrapped really well, canvas, no way it was canvas... the list goes on and on.

Honestly, what is known about the money bag? I would like to do a float time test, but I need to know more about the bag (otherwise the experiment is pointless).

This was on my agenda for phone calls... but if you've learned more in the last month, your insight will serve us greatly.

I'm assuming you saw my correction on the dimensions... 9x12x17 instead of 9x12x12.

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I need to correct my previous posts about what parachutes Cooper had. I wrote that he had two back-type reserves, 1 chest-type reserve, and 1 dummy chest-type. Based on Ckret's posts, Cooper in fact had: 1 back-type reserve (the NB-6), 1 back-mounted sport main (the Pioneer), 1 chest-type reserve, and 1 dummy.

The reason the change is important is that the Pioneer sport system would have had rings on the front to accommodate the chest-type reserve. Cooper passed on the opportunity to use a two-parachute system with a steerable main, and instead chose to destroy the chest reserve and jump a single-parachute system.

Mark



I found Stratostar's musings pretty intriguing I must admit... but no matter how much you want to mislead the FBI (and I agree with ckret that they would have suspected jumpers no matter which rig he took) I really can't see anyone (with experience) in that situation choosing a single system over a dual one. In that sense, ckret's supposition of someone exposed to canopies but maybe not a jumper tallies - maybe? I also seem to recall someone earlier hypothesised that possibly someone who worked with dispatching paratroopers but didn't actually jump themselves (i can't remember what the term used was? loadmaster?) as a possibility.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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1) using logic, you take the best you have to survive the jump. If not why do it. No matter which chute you take the FBI is going to think you are a jumper.



Really, you think he was a jumper? I think the FBI assumed he was NOT a jumper, because no skydiver would take a training reserve with a big X on it or pass up a sport main and reserve combo, only a non jumping retard would, in jumpers eyes. If you don't die, you getaway or get busted and being dead might beat doing life.

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2) He can't be sure of what is in either rig because he never repacked.



True if it was me, I would have opened the pioneer to inspect it and repack it, can't trust the FBI to not try to kill me or my stu I might take with me out the door. However knowing I'm not taking the Stu, I would grab the sealed reserve and hope I was right, because 1. I may not have the time to repack the sport rig in order to get out at my drop zone of choice & 2. repacking a reserve is not as easy to do in between seat rows and with out the right tools (like a sport main would be), something a jumper would know as well.

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4) Why would you destroy the good belly reserve and take the demo, you may need the reserve on the way down? If Cooper is methodical he would have thought, "let me take a look in this demo before I destroy something I may need." (can't have it both ways, he either planned it well all the way through or bumbled)



Again it would show later in time that he knew parachutes to the FBI and that (if he is a sport jumper) is a very small world in 1971. Again if it was me, I would do everything I could to not look like I knew what I was doing to the FBI. Also if it was me, I have built a few "walk around rigs" for training and we cut out as much crap as we can and only stuff the pack to have some bulk, if I needed a lot of strong rope, I know I could find it in the good reserve and look like a retard to the FBI and jumpers who would be asked about my actions.

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6) He knew Tacoma from the air and McChord with distances to Seattle locations. Air flight in 71 was not common for most. To be able to spots cities from the air that blend into one another points to repeated air travel. He most likely got in the military, flying over the area.



Not hard to do for skydivers, I have very few night jumps over Richmond Indiana, but have no doubt I could find a blacked out DZ (with in a few miles, if not damn close to right on) from the air at night from land marks and city lights alone. So for that matter he could have a fair amount of stick time a cessna 150 or 172 and be able to spot the landmarks without flying around there as military person. Hell he could have grown up around there and flew with his dad as a kid and known the lighted land marks. I have no doubt I could return to my childhood home and be able to pick out land marks at night after all these years, such as radio & TV towers, there still there and we used to land on a non lighted grass strip and you had to know how to line up on the one tower to make the strip.


Just food for though and my H.O.'s. But I'm sure you have more detailsthat are not disclosed and I could be way wrong, or maybe not?

Thanks again for your post and good luck in your quest.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Strat,

Do you think it would be possible for a typical person, lacking aviation or airplane experience in the area, to pick out major points along the I-5 corridor if they also knew those areas from the ground?

I could fly over Vegas right now and point out all the hotels from the air, even if I only studied a map of the strip.

Were the 9-11 hijackers experienced in flying over New York or DC? (no), but they knew it from looking at maps (and in that case, video game sims).

Therefore, would it be a foregone conclusion that Cooper had to have experience flying over McChord, Tacoma, or Seattle? Or would having a very good sense of direction and familiarity with landmarks be good enough?

This thread suddenly got interesting! Thank you!

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Is it true Cooper unpacked the chest chute and tried to fit the money in there?

If so, then he apparently wasn’t planning on jumping with two usable chutes.

Were the two chest chutes the same size? Did

As Stratostar says, I think time was an issue so I think we have to be careful not to misinterpret his decisions.

I also think Stratostar has a very valid point about what knowledge he displayed. I don’t think the talent pool he came from is that large. The more he shows the more he narrows that talent pool.

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Mark i forgot to add that, your right, the Pioneer had D rings.

In regards to putting the money in the belly reserve, we don't know. Because he cut the canopy out of the container instead of just cutting line i believe he did want to put the money in the container. There was too much (another indicator he did not think this out, if he did he would have asked for 100's) so it would not fit. thats my guess.

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I would say no, not at night

I'm fairly sure that when they flew over it heading north, it was still light out.

I can't remember the exact twilight time, but I did post it before on the prior thread.

Also, here's a curious thought:
If someone is sitting there and says "hey, there's Tacoma"... would that sound like someone who flies over it frequently, or is there nothing to infer from the comment?

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They were circling the time Cooper made his comments about locations on the ground.

stratostar, the point I was making is that no matter what Cooper did or did not do, the FBI would investigate and did investigate every drop zone in the US. We would do it whether we thought Cooper was a jumper or not just to rule out the most likely.

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I understood your point Mr. Carr. My point was how would my actions look to real jumpers, like a fool or non jumper, only if your going to try to pull this off your putting it all on the line anyway so a one parachute jump is the least of the risk in doing it.;)

Like I said, thanks for taking the time to post here, best of luck on the case.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I would say no, not at night, you need to see it from the air at night in order to see what it looks like, there are points of ref. you can only see at night.




other than one night jump in toledo (quite a ways north), all of my flying in that area has been during the day. i have no doubt that i could pick out longview, kelso, kalama, woodland, vancouver, and the trojan cooling tower if it were still standing if i were to fly over there at night. given the weather that night though, the point might be moot. he may not have been able to see much of anything.


"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

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Novalis,

I have a copy. I tried to find the site I downloaded it from and was unable. There are two ways you can get it.

1. Send me a private e-mail to "w a l k e r t r a i n at h o t m a i l dot c o m" (you know what to do with this) and I will send it as an attachment (it is 1.02 Mbytes).

2. You can go to my Yahoo Discussion Group; “D B Cooper” research and download it from the “Files” section.

I have some other stuff there also (like high-res maps of the areas of interest). Frankly the Yahoo discussion groups are kind of “gimpy” but it gives me a place to put big files to share with other Cooper enthusiast.

Here’s how to join the D.B. Cooper Yahoo Discussion Group:

STEP ONE: Obtain a Yahoo ID if you don't have one. It's easiest to use the Yahoo Membership Wizard.

STEP TWO: Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/D_B_Cooper_Research/ and click "Join This Group", following the directions given.

STEP THREE: Have Fun!

Sluggo_Monster

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Novalis,

I found it!

Here is ther link to the transcript of 305's communications with Flt Ops, Ground Control, Center, etc.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/library/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf



I reccomend that everyone read this thing. It is amazing how much it differs from some of the things we have been led to believe (facts?).

Sluggo_Monster

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Thanks Sluggo!

I poked around on the FBI's Cooper FOIA page, and it looked like just a bunch of newspaper clippings. If that's the typical results of a FOIA request, then why bother?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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