DB Cooper

[milehighpres 0]

found this sooo late to make sure everyone will see it.

called history unsolved on discovery channel....

the D.B Cooper story....done so far very cool.

jumper is troy hartman all mostly shot at PERRIS valley

"the sky is not the limit....the ground is"

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

Man! Am I ever glad to see you back!

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The issue I have and will continue to have with posting here is that perception is reality no matter the fact. When someone has the ability to shape perception as he or she desires regardless to fact, I have issue with that from the stance of what and who I represent. I am sure you can see how this can be a big problem, lets try this one more time.

Understood.

If you have been reading the posts here you are aware that I have decided that the myth of D B Cooper has completely overwhelmed the facts about the NW Flt 305 Hijacking. I tried to build a database of “Facts” and 377 was going to keep a database of “myths” but it failed miserably. All I accomplished was getting everyone mad at me.

Please be aware that most people do not know what you (an FBI agent) actually do in your day-to-day activities and what rules, procedures, regulations, laws, codes, and compliance documents dictate the path you have to take when dealing with the public. Speaking for myself (and possibly others), when you first showed up on this forum you became two people. Ckret, the guy who shares my fascination with the NW 305 Hijacking, and Larry Carr, the FBI agent that I can use as a source of factual information. That is, if Larry Carr is allowed to give me factual information.

So, for me, there is a dilemma, how do I deal with Ckret and how do I deal with Larry Carr? If I ask Larry Carr to send me some information (about the case), can I really expect him to do it? Or, would I expect him to politely (FBI agents are always polite ) refer me to the FOIA request form? Conversely, If I ask Ckret for some information, and he gives it to me, am I getting facts, based on Larry Carr’s knowledge that has not been released to the general public, or am I getting conjecture from Ckret based only on information that has been released? Or, worse, am I getting mis-directed so that if I repeat the info elsewhere, Larry Carr doesn’t get accused of releasing information that shouldn’t have been released. The later case is the one I would hope to avoid, because it is not helpful to me in my quest to assemble the facts of the case.

When you first posted here, I think you posted as Larry Carr. You were using this forum as an extension of your “get the public involved” campaign. For myself, I think I came to think of you as my “personal FBI agent” and expected things from you that you were not able to deliver. I got very frustrated when you didn’t respond to every question and PM. So, in the future you will be Ckret and I will gather “facts” through FOIA.

However, I will ask, that you make me aware of any reliable data sources (other than the supposed FOIA documents on the FBI’s web site) that would keep me from making FOIA request on info already released.

For someone who spent years completing FOIA Exemption Affidavits on every document I ever produced, I haven’t the slightest idea how to file a FOIA Request. But I bet I’ll figure it out!

Now, a question for Ckret, in cases like the recently found parachute, does the FBI ever use volunteers to do “boots-on-ground” tasks? I have a skill-set that might be useful and a lot of time on my hands. (hint, hint)

Again, welcome back!

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[low_pull1 2]

based on NickDGs comments, ill assume duane was not around paraliders while in colorado. Must have been hang Hang gliders.

chuck

[low_pull1 2]

...............
my idea, is that someone living in a fantasy world
....................


like Duane

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

Ckret,

can you update us on the canopy find please? There is too much "fiction" being put out by the media. I trust hearing it from the source not from the media.
1. has the site been or will it be searched?
2. has Cossey seen the found canopy or been able to comment on it?
3. IT was never really said, when was the canopy found?
4. I have seen it two ways was the canopy unearthed and in a pile of dirt made by cutting the road , or just unearthed in its spot? I ask this because the depth would determine if it was buried by sombody or by natural causes(time and mt saint helens).

We would love to hear directly from you on the find of the canopy. I know you are probably tired of telling the story, but i think it is important to hear the details not thru the sensationalism of the press who will turn details to make a better story. It's been said before, thanks for coming back.

[Albert18 0]

I was reading through the transcript of the communications.

At 5:47

“The flight is on the ground and they are making preparations to hook up the fueling truck and the hijacker is in the lavatory and think will stay there for a while.”

So Cooper is in the can? He had all that time to go to the bathroom while they were circling. I don’t understand this.


I didn’t realize there was a third stewardess.


Flight Operations told them to check to see if he had left the airplane and then land immediately. Failure to follow these instructions really put the FBI behind the 8 ball.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

This ones for you Safe or Sluggo, or anyone else with the flight info and the location of the canopy find. IF this canopy was Coopers, and the origional AB line is legit, and you have the wind, what altitude would that have put Coopers pull at? This would be interesting to see. I see this as showing us a couple of things. first, did Cooper treat this as a hop-n-pop(open high), this would be somthing a person with military exp or sombody with NO jump experience would more than likely do than get stable and figure out what the hell is going on like we would do as experienced jumpers. If this shows he pulled at a lower altitude, it could be deducted, he got stable and knew what he was doing before he pulled. or lastly, if it's a short line a no pull happened. I don't have the info to figure it. can sobody calculate this.

[low_pull1 2]

............
Honestly, what is known about the money bag? I would like to do a float time test, but I need to know more about the bag (otherwise the experiment is pointless).
...............

someone (a skydiver ..Ted comes to mind or his twin??) built a "model" of skydivers exiting an aircraft Freefliers vs belly fliers to show it was possible to cross paths. Maybe the program can be tweeked to show drift of different objects.... i do not remember the the skydivers name. I believe this simulation/program would be usefull.

Chuck

[1969912 0]

I went through the communications transcript that you linked to looking for any mention of the claims that Cooper rejected military gear and demanded civilian sport parachute rigs. All communications related to type and number of rigs requested, as well as the status of their availability, take place between Flight 305 and "SEADD", which appears to be a group within the airline. I found no mention of the military vs. civilian gear issue. In fact, if the reference to "TCM" in the snippet below means McChord AFB, then the flight crew was under the impression that the rigs were coming from McChord (Tacoma). They actually came from Issaquah, ~25 miles in the other direction.

EDIT: See attachment
------------
Snippet of comms that mentions "TCM":

5:22 Flt 305: "He (is) getting very impatient for the chutes(.) Will have to come up with them pretty quick"

SEADD: "The cutes should be here any minute now(.) As soon as they arrive we will pick them up and be on (the) way"

Flt 305: "He hs inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the fact that they are not available locally"

SEADD: "Assure him this is so"


5:25: SEADD Lee: "Have the two bak paks and have the money. If (you) can land now and come back and get the two chutes when they arrive.."


5:26 Flt 305: "He (is) fully aware that TCM (Tacoma?) is 20 mi away"

SEADD Lee: "The chutes are here now and will pick up the money and other packs and be on my way"
-------------

Are there other communications than what are on the transcript you linked to, or was the military vs. civilian gear issue simply made up?

jim
------------

EDIT:

I transcribed the relevant portions of the trascript to make them easier to read. Attached.
-----

EDIT Again: Replaced .txt file with .rtf. Should open with any word processor.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[low_pull1 2]

im not sure what to think of cooper...... A skydiver would have carried a rig onto the plane.

why go through the bother of such a request unless a total idiot.

[low_pull1 2]

Found it:

Freefall simulation (c) 7/25/1999 John Kallend

Purpose: to determine the most likely trajectories of (groups
of) skydivers with different fall rates,
given the fall rate, airplane speed, and winds

http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

[Orange1 0]

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I could fly over Vegas right now and point out all the hotels from the air, even if I only studied a map of the strip.

Do you really think you could do that from 10K?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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Do you think it would be possible for a typical person, lacking aviation or airplane experience in the area, to pick out major points along the I-5 corridor if they also knew those areas from the ground?

I could fly over Vegas right now and point out all the hotels from the air, even if I only studied a map of the strip.

I have not flown a lot and when I flew to Kentucky for the first time from Va. I was able to see all of the things I knew and point out places I knew only from the ground. I knew the area from the ground - and thus it was easy to spot from the air - even with the changes that developement created in a 25 yr span of time. Note that I had also never driven a car in Ky. when I was 17....some individual have this ability - others couldn't find their way around the localfairgrounds.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 4]

Are you aware of what the term overcast means? It means that the sky is for all practical purposes completely covered by clouds.

I have been a skydiver for about ten years and I was a flight instructor for about ten years before that. As familiar as I am with aerial navigation, I can not pick out ground targets with my eyes from ABOVE an overcast layer. Sorry, but it's not possible. Overcast were the conditions that night and they were flying ABOVE it.

Any discussion of DB Cooper "spoting" the load begins and ends right there.

Any discussion of what people think they might be able to spot while on a daytime flight with a good view of the ground is irrelevant.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I wasn't commenting on targeting. I was commenting on an off the cuff remark about Tacoma while the plane was en route to Seattle. I thought it would still be light outside, but I could be mistaken.

Orange1, 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k... irrelevant to the discussion. He noted Tacoma from the air upon descent into SeaTac. I don't know what time this comment was made, so I can't tell you the lighting conditions. I'm not sure if it was dark yet or not. Further, Cooper wasn't pointing out particular buildings, was he? I think he just made mention of a city near the water.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Here is ther link to the transcript of 305's communications with Flt Ops, Ground Control, Center, etc.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/library/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf

There has been some debate about when the pressure bump happened vs when it was communicated, etc on these forums. According to the transcript, at 8.12 they noted some "oscillations" in the cabin "must be doing something with air stairs"

SCPLF, if altitude doesn't make a difference then what was your point meant to be in the first place? Things look different from the air than they do on the ground. Some things are easier to identify than others. Some things are easier to identify at lower altitudes than higher ones. As Quade points out it's all irrelevant anyway as they were flying above the cloud cover.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[stratostar 5]

No he wouldn't it would stick out like a sore thumb and heavy as hell too.

And Quade the over cast ended at 5K according to reports, Mt. Saint Helens would stick out above the top layer as would any other such land marks, big citys might have some glow to the under layers, therefore one could have sorta of a idea where you are. We'll never know for sure, but your right cloud cover makes it a lot harder to spot, not like any of us have ever tried that....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Orange1 0]

a couple more snippets from the transcript.

305 was asked to indicate if they went above 10K or "where the visibility is good" (i presume meaning clear of cloud) as there would be people following - i did not see any indication that either of these was subsequently communicated before the jump. Not sure if one can conclude that cloud cover continued; at 7.45pm there was an exchange about the weather:"it's fog and haze". (The next mention of visibility that I can find was after 10pm when they were approaching Reno.)

And again, it's been mentioned but questions keep coming up - confirms that "denomination of bills not important". So despite some people thinking he planned this meticulously - maybe not, given indications he couldn't fit all the bills in where he wanted to.

Something quizzical? They mentioned the hijacker boarded at PDX then later there is a comment that "The passenger that boarded at PDX had previous arrest for drunkenness". Anyone heard this before or have any idea about it - it implies they thougt they knew who he was??

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[novalis 0]

thank you very much.
sunday i am underway but as soon as i get back to my own pc i will join the group.
thanks also for your follow up message.

also the messages of many others have been quite helpful. the main thing i have learned is that i made a mistake in thinking that my initial reading had acquainted me with the facts. but, being interested in facts and not myths, i am very happy to have discovered this board and discussion.
thanks to all of you who have responded to my, apparently sometimes repititious, generally naive, questions.
novalis

[labrys 0]

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my idea, is that someone living in a fantasy world, thinking that they are DB cooper, got a hold of an old parachute, from about the same era, plants it in a field to be plowed

Well... someone would be waiting a hell of a long time then. The parachute wasn't unearthed by a plow and there's no indication it was in a field that was waiting to be plowed. It was unearthed while the property owner was grading for a road.

Owned by Remi #?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Seems there was some confusion about the questions I was asking. Specifically about Cooper pointing out the city of Tacoma from the air. This happened while the plane was en route to Seattle. Ckret said it happened while the plane was circling around during the 30 minute delay. The plane was not allowed to land until the money and parachutes were ready.

The plane finally landed at around 5:40

According to the US Naval Observatory:
Sunset 4:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 4:59 p.m.

The "point" I was trying to make wasn't really a point. I was asking everyone's opinion of what Cooper's comments could have implied about him.

For example, the last time I flew into Seattle, it was late at night and my wife had the window seat. Looking out the window, she commented on Bellevue, Mercer Island, the 520 and 90 bridges... but when I looked over her shoulder, I was disoriented and couldn't figure out what direction we were going and what everything was until I spent a few seconds figuring it out. It should be noted, my field of vision was fairly small since I was sitting two seats over (no one was in the middle seat).

What could you infer about my wife from her taking the time to comment about those places from the air?

In other words, would someone who flies the NW all the time get excited enough to even mention the city from the air? Or, would you think they're trying to show how much they know by pointing it out? Could that knowledge be gained simply through knowing the area well from the ground and figuring it out by looking out the window?

For those who watched the Unsolved History last night (or know the episode well), I definitely found some errors in the show. But for now, I'd like to quote Rataczak's statements:

"In this note, he demanded four parachutes. Two back packs, two chest packs. He wanted 200 thousand dollars in US currency and he wanted it in a knapsack, and he wanted no funny stuff.

He'd given us the following demands: the aircraft would be flown at 10,000 feet with the flaps down, the gear down, and the demand later came that he wanted the flaps to be put at 15º. He had done some homework or possibly had some flight time. I don't know.

The stairs immediately reacted by becomming abrubtly closed and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears. So I quickly got onto the air traffic control center and said, 'I think our friend just took leave of us.'"

- Co-Pilot Bill Rataczak

[dumstuntzz 0]

Ummmm... i 'm getting a little confused.beside the nb6 that cooper jumped with ,he alos took a chest pack(the dummy chute as it has been called)maybe it was already covered here but i am going to ask anyway, is it correct that cooper removed the dummy chute from its container and left it on the plane ,or am i missing something?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

low_pull1

John Kallend was the guy someone told me to get in touch with regarding the money bag calculations. I think he's on this site if I'm not mistaken. I visited the site, but couldn't see any tools that would immediately answer my questions. We'll have to ask him specifically.

SKYWHUFFO,

Your question was one I worried someone would ask. I don't know if I can "calculate" the exact MSL, but I could probably give you a round about clue.

Point A was a no-pull. Point U was deploying 2500 MSL. Point B was pulling immediately.

If you extroplate a parallel line from where I think Ckret was pointing to in the video, and calculate its distance for a parallel point of point A, I get 2.45 miles from the "no pull".

The total distance between points A & B are about 3.8 miles.

The area I thought Ckret was pointing to in the video was 1.35 miles from pulling immediately, but 2.4 miles from not pulling. It would seem that he pulled sooner rather than later (if this was Cooper's canopy).

But when I look at wind speed (the information I have is incomplete), I come up with an answer between 6,000 to 5,000 MSL, but I'm using maximum drift with no crabbing and I'm not smart enough to know if he'd drift perfectly with the wind (he goes the same speed as the wind).

This is directly from the FBI file regarding that search zone map:

"the most favorable search areas, listed in their order of priority, would be as follows:
Point A
Along line A-B favoring the segment between U and B
South of Line A-B
North of Line A-B.

It goes without saying, the alledged canopy was effectively found between U and B.

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

John Kallend was the guy someone told me to get in touch with regarding the money bag calculations. I think he's on this site if I'm not mistaken.

"kallend"
You will usually find him in Speakers Corner.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo, thanks for the warm welcome, you and every one else can just call me Larry. When I first came on here I was testing whether I could use this site as an investigative tool so i hid my identity, it was a ckret. with the exception of a few "pressure bumps" I have found the site to be very helpful and enjoyed the give and take.