DB Cooper

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

But points on a sketch of a face can and have changed over time.

So what.

The sketch hasn't changed, but three sketches were made and a fourth was done in 1988 based on one witness from 17 years earlier, whoop dee do.

The test was done from photo to photo. No one ever said the sketch was a photo of Cooper. The point is, your everyday joe shmoe cannot accomplish this feat.

Further, using a much less sophisticated program that I have said isn't much to rely upon has shown me that the same guy who won the database challenge has also beat every other suspect discussed on this thread against every single sketch including Ckret's hybrid sketch. Not that it means anything other than what sketch is used may not change the top rank of the suspects in how they measure up against any of the composites.

Big flipping deal.

You attack things that really have no reason to attack. I don't base my opinions on one test.

What's interesting is the very minute I get on here and start showing everyone the evidence and what it means, people begin attacking like crazy...

It makes little sense to me. Keep your opinions, I think everyone should have one and you should not let facts or truth stop you from believing what you want.

[ltdiver 3]

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Holding grips is NOT 'holding hands'

My apologies.

Apology accepted. :^)

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The point was that a teathered line is the not the same as a holding grip.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that a holding grip won't work at said speed, or at best will not work with any level of consistenty and that the probability would favor the two objects coming apart.

Yes. Yet, can I correct a bit of use of terminology? :^) In this picture the pink things on the skydiver's suit are called 'grippers', and what the skydivers are doing is holding them. This is 'holding grips'. :^)

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The crux of my "math" was only to calculate the max force of wind against the sack of money. That max force was something like 160 to 180 pounds of force (this off the top of my head so don't quote it).

Not quoting it, yet one has to wonder what the body can withstand. If great force is put on 550 line, wrapped around someone's waist, would that be enough to cut the individual in half? As skydivers we all know stories of how body parts were cut off from going through someone else's suspension line in flight. :^(

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I don't see what my experience or inexperience has to do with anything here. I'm not basing my opinion on conjecture and I've stated that countless times.

Sigh... :^(

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

One last time about this too...

There are several reasons to do such a test. The main one is that the predominant hypothesis is that the money arrived to its location via the Columbia River.

Simple geography shows us that if this hypothesis were true, it would mean the money sack had to originate from two out of six different regions in Clark County.

The two regions would be the Washougal watershed and the LaCamas Lake watershed. All other watersheds can be effectively ruled out.

Between the two, the most probable from a geographic standpoint would be LaCamas Lake. There are significant issues with choosing this route, however. One of the primary concerns is that the sack of money would have to float on this lake and gradually make its way to the SE portion of the lake where there's a dam surrounded by skimmers. The sack of money could not escape the lake without floating. Further, even if it did reach the dam and skimmers while floating, there's significant doubt that it could get get pushed past the skimmers and the dam.

A float test result that shows the sack of money could not float for very long would effectively rule out the LaCamas watershed.

Therefore, the test is worth doing.

The second part of the test, if it's even possible, would be to determine the likelihood of the sack of money making its way to where the money was recovered.

While it's generally accepted that this is possible, the hypothesis has never been tested. Guru & Jumpin Jack have accurately said that the money only needs to get pushed at the bottom.

The problem with just defaulting to this position is that the money was found in the sand bar 20 miles from it's "theoretical" starting point and the bottom is actually not the bottom of the river, but the western edge of the river.

The significance of this is that the sack would not be allowed to make its way into the center of the river, but would have to remain on the fringe edges of the west side of the river. The fringe edges have bigger rocks than the center and has branches and screens as you travel down river.

The effect of these is unknown.

Further, the water on the westside of Caterpillar at the time is unknown.

There's so many unknowns that even I have expressed a lot of doubt if any testing could shed light on the mystery.

The best way to determine if the hypothesis is plausible isn't really practical. You would have to take several money bags, each soaked to various degrees, and chuck them into the Washougal river and track their path.

If the money makes its way to the center of the water flow (where the force is greatest BTW), then it would effectively make it impossible for the money to "wash up" where it did. This would especially hold true if the money were on the bottom of the river at or before the 20 mile marker.

Even if such a test could be done, the variation between 2008 and 1979 may be enough to render such a test null, however.

BTW, PH would only be useful if we were testing microscopic items. The pH is a measurement of electrons in the water and it would not significantly alter any results; the pH of the river is the natural habitat to fresh water fish and it can be safely assumed that it is not an extreme number; it's likely to be at 7 +/- 1 which would not alter such a test. While there's some correlation to viscosity, any number in a normal range would not sigfnicantly alter the buoyancy of the sack.

If I test the float time of a sack of money, and it only floats for say 40 minutes, a person could use that information to help them figure out the probabilty that LaCamas was the route.

The test is worth doing, so quit complaining about it. If you want to put forth some testing or analysis of your own, then by all means, do it.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Good post.

My apologies again if I happen to screw up some terminology.

While I can believe people may have been amputated as a result of skydiving, it's not conclusive that it happened here.

Your question is valid and I've wondered it myself.

I'll rephrase it, and I looked it up so you can quote me here...

Is the a max force of 187 pounds enough to pull suspension line through the core of a human body? Obviously if we're talking about severing the body, we're also talking about the spinal cord as well.

Further, the max force would not be sustained. How long the max force of 187 pounds could be possible depends on the deceleration rate. I'm not skilled enough to make such a calculation. All I can say is that he starts at 170kts and then slows down horizontally as he accelerates vertically.

The other thing to consider if you're trying to figure out if the sack of money cut Cooper in half is the clothing he had on. The line would have to severe whatever clothing was between his skin and the line in addition to the the core of the body.

Just a guess here, but I'd guess he did not get cut in half. But if he did, someone found the money and moved it.

I stick by that conclusion until Ckret updates us on the money, timeline, and location.

[grimmie 186]

Skydivers jump with fanny packs and other containers holding flags and banners. If you jump facing into the relative wind the object is pressed to your body. Facing away from the wind your body shields it. Sideways exit would whip you around a bit.
Any Boy Scout could tie the sack to themselves so it stayed put during exit and freefall.

[Albert18 0]

Hey Ckret, the guy you are looking for is a double amputee.

[ltdiver 3]

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The line would have to severe whatever clothing was between his skin and the line in addition to the the core of the body.

Or pull it through, with it.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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Hey Ckret, the guy you are looking for is a double amputee.

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Off Topic:

Ckret, I never realized you were All-American.

When I lived in Seattle, I had a friend named Brad Walker. In our last yr at UW, he was honored as the male athlete of the year there. This was several years ago, but he still competes today (do a google if you never heard of him). That next year, I was in a master's program at a different school (you can probably figure out which one) and I was named the male athlete of the year at that school.

Totally off topic, but thought I'd share since we're from the same tribe of accomplished athletes.

I will someday get good at free falling, but I have to spend some more time in the tunnel first.

[Orange1 0]

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What's interesting is the very minute I get on here and start showing everyone the evidence and what it means, people begin attacking like crazy...It makes little sense to me. Keep your opinions, I think everyone should have one and you should not let facts or truth stop you from believing what you want.

It's not attacking like crazy but more to the point it's not "evidence". You might think it has more weight because it has a formula attached, but it still is not enough "evidence" to prove anything. Right now, it is not "fact" or "truth" as relates to DB Cooper in anyting but a hypothetical way. Call it educated conjecture if you will, it is certainly not anything a real FBI agent, for example, would label "evidence". Useful in trying to find evidence or facts or truth, perhaps, but that is something else. You however clearly - your own words - consider it fact, evidence, truth. If it actually ends up leading somewhere, I can promise you I will be the first person to congratulate you.

If you can't see what your experience or otherwise means.. along with Albert18 calling us crime whuffos... well what are you guys doing here rather than websleuths or those other "real" crime forums? (Wonder how many FBI agents or real detectives hang out on those? Certainly however they are unlikely to be filled with skydivers who have this irritating habit of basing opinions about a jump on their skydiving experience.)

Oh and incidentally there are thousands of skdyivers who became extremely proficient at freefall without once visiting a tunnel.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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Skydivers jump with fanny packs and other containers holding flags and banners. If you jump facing into the relative wind the object is pressed to your body. Facing away from the wind your body shields it. Sideways exit would whip you around a bit.
Any Boy Scout could tie the sack to themselves so it stayed put during exit and freefall.

Make fun of me if you guys wish, BUT I have a question to ask. If someone jumps from a 727 - he is beneath the plane and I realize there will be turbulence.

The Question is IF a jumper does a tuck as much as he could with the money and the weight of the money is positioned so that his bottom is the heaviest (much like a pregnant woman) how difficult will it be to break that tuck when he is ready?

I believe he pushed off from the stairway in that position. Then he begins his countdown - how difficult will it be for him to open that tuck when the time comes?

He is bottom heavy and drops with this tuck and by tucking he has managed to fall quickly away from the jet stream. I know NOTHING about jumping, but I need some feed back on this, but don't razzle me too badly.

Somethings I keep to myself because I find no connection or reasons to verbalize them. This comes from something he did and mumbled a riddle at that time. This happened only once during the marriage...he was not fully awake. I thought it was from some childhood fear...and he was acting out in a dream.

OKAY - slaughter me - I am just asking a question about something that has bothered me for a long time and the discussions about the exit velocity got me to thinking about this incident.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[low_pull1 2]

the forces are greatest at opening time due to the change in velocity, not at exit.

[Orange1 0]

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The Question is IF a jumper does a tuck as much as he could with the money and the weight of the money is positioned so that his bottom is the heaviest (much like a pregnant woman) how difficult will it be to break that tuck when he is ready?

I believe he pushed off from the stairway in that position. Then he begins his countdown - how difficult will it be for him to open that tuck when the time comes?

Not sure if I can picture exactly what you mean by a "tuck" but how recoverable any position is is partlly dependent on the jumper's experience. I'll leave it to the jet-experienced guys to answer re time, from a normal plane a jumper leaving in some kind of "balled" position should be able to get stable very quickly, i.e. a matter of a few seconds - but we have also all seen videos of AFF students - with already a few jumps under their belt and theoretically knowing how to arch and get stable - tumbling all over the sky with their AFFIs racing to catch them and only being stabilized by their instructors. This is what panic does to jumpers.

I honestly believe that this really is why the question of Cooper's experience comes in. Someone with no experience, sensory overload (it's hard to explain this unless you've been there), tumbling through the sky in the dark, maybe finally getting stable and then finding the ripcord is a hard pull... all this with less than 60 seconds to impact from the time he left the step. (I'm not sure how fast those rounds would have taken to open, maybe a rigger from those days can chip in - what would have been minimum survivable opening altitude? ) Jo, believe me the Duane story would become a lot more believable with some evidence of jump experience.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ltdiver 3]

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the forces are greatest at opening time due to the change in velocity, not at exit.

Perhaps most of the time. However I can state most assuredly that the Perris DC-9's exit force (over a very short period of time) is alot more than my nicely opening Spectre-135 at 4,000' AGL. I pack my canopy to take 1,000' to inflate (and my freefall speed is quite low, I'm only 180# out the door and 5'10" tall. My normal freefall speed is comfortably 105-110mph).

Cooper's presumed weight was 170-190# and 5' 10"- 6' tall (taking the outside measurements from both Muklow and Schaffner). Money bag's weight = 22#. Add the weight of the NB6 rig ~ 40#? Exit speed 170 knots. Deceleration time to terminal? Perhaps 3-4 seconds (guessing here)? Immediate force after clearing the dead air out the rear door is the greatest component and less than a second. Exit altitude believed to be 10,000' MSL.

F = m x a.

Any of you math wizards out there have at it and prove me wrong.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, believe me the Duane story would become a lot more believable with some evidence of jump experience.

[377 22]

There will be a 4 day boogie this summer at Perris Valley DZ in CA with DC 9 jet jumps. All the speculation about tensile strengths of suspension cord, breaking scenarios, etc. can easily be tested. Start thinking of an ideal test jump to resolve some of these issues. Come to Perris. I'll bet you'd have a dozen volunteers just for the price of a jet jump ticket, provided that the test is safe for the jumper and doesn't endanger others. Being the last to exit the jet minimizes a lot of those issues. Lt Diver, are you up for being the test jumper?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[ltdiver 3]

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Lt Diver, are you up for being the test jumper?

First, It's my belief that Ben won't do a high speed pass for jump run, so it can't be exactly apples to apples.

Second, I personally don't like the thought of jumping a NB6 and a 28.

Third, although I'd love to test the theories out personally, I can't. Shoulder injury earlier this year will keep me out of the sky for a few more months. And then, perhaps, permanently out of the jet (due to it's exit forces on the arms).

Ever think about contacting Troy Hartman? He'd have the resources, passion, and back-up for such a study. Unsolved History TV-Troy Hartman on DB Cooper Ben -might- do a high speed pass for him (if Hollywood would foot the bill).

http://www.troyhartman.com/>

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[happythoughts 0]

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the forces are greatest at opening time due to the change in velocity, not at exit.

Perhaps most of the time. However I can state most assuredly that the Perris DC-9's exit force (over a very short period of time) is alot more than my nicely opening Spectre-135 at 4,000' AGL.

ltdiver

I agree with you.

LP mentioned the "change in velocity" as the impact to the body.

"Change in velocity" (the change from initial velocity to final velocity) has to be discussed as a change over a period of time.

When opening, you go from 115mph to 0 in a few seconds. With a nice opening, it is not disorienting or painful.

When exiting the jet, you go from 0mph to 200mph ("holy crap" speed) in .5 seconds. It is almost guaranteed to not be a controlled, stable exit.
(Been there, done that - several times. No theory.)

So, what you can tie on and make work on a regular jump, is not a comparative situation.

That said, I think you can tie a bag securely onto a rig and have it stay on. (I did the 155mph pass with a guy in an Elvis suit, big rhinestone belt, glasses, and wig.)

You would be unstable for a moment, but not too bad.

[ltdiver 3]

And your other post (of the 2 you've made) is just as helpful as this one. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3192466;#3192466



ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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That said, I think you can tie a bag securely onto a rig and have it stay on. (I did the 155mph pass with a guy in an Elvis suit, big rhinestone belt, glasses, and wig.)

Egads! Did everything stay on, and in place? I've seen those rubber wigs.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[happythoughts 0]

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On that night in the 727, line up 100 people in the plane, all from the expected demographic you think Cooper is from. They all go out the stairs one after the other, at the predicted time. Far enough apart so they don't interfere with one another. But close enough so they're all roughly going to experience the same thing. All dressed the same. All with the same chute.

"...expected demographic you think Cooper is from."

The demographic of bored, unemployed, airborne-trained, Viet Nam vets sitting around the Pacific Northwest (Wash, Ore, Cal...).

During WFFC, 6 lines of 25 jumpers loaded a 727 jet.
At 155mph, they all run out as fast as they can and they all live.

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See, once you think of it that way...

Only an equally valid theoretical opinion, not based on any verifiable facts.

If you don't think of it that way, he survived the jump.

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That's why the sport jumper's perspective here is all messed up.

Only if you accept the assumption that he had no jump training.

If you think he had jumper training, the reverse is true.
The non-jumpers opinion has no value.

[happythoughts 0]

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***

Egads! Did everything stay on, and in place? I've seen those rubber wigs.

ltdiver

Yep. I have a still pic, but it's not digital. I have been meaning to get all my old negatives put on CD.
His name was Rob and his mom lived in Chicago.
She came down to Q to watch him land.

My personal quote from that day was, "...I followed six naked people out of a 727 jet with Elvis and when we landed, I met his mom." A good day.

[low_pull1 2]

lets put it like this, what forces do you feel more... are they on exit or are they at opening. Im trying to keep this simple. If you want to do an experiment safe,,,,evaluate if opening forces are more than deployment forces.

but who knows , maybe cooper deployed as he was standing on the step.

[ltdiver 3]

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lets put it like this, what forces do you feel more... are they on exit or are they at opening. Im trying to keep this simple. If you want to do an experiment safe,,,,evaluate if opening forces are more than deployment forces.

From a jet exit vs canopy opening? The jet exit, no question.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[happythoughts 0]

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but who knows , maybe cooper deployed as he was standing on the step.

From a standing start to 200 mph?

If someone did that, it would separate all their vertebrae from each other by 8 inches.

Test it this way. Stand on the side of an interstate with a grappling hook. Attaching it to 20 ft of rope and then to a harness.

Lasso a truck passing by at 70mph.