DB Cooper

[happythoughts 0]

This thread is the second edition of a too-long thread.

Resurrecting the dead horse to administer a more thorough beating.

[airtwardo 7]

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This thread is the second edition of a too-long thread.

Resurrecting the dead horse to administer a more thorough beating.

Yup!



It's my soap & my dick...I'll wash it as fast as I want to!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Orange1 0]

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Once you strip away all the mythology and just look at the facts, Cooper complaining that "McChord is only 20 minutes away" when he was moaning about delays, says to me that he ASSUMED the chutes would come from McChord. Therefore he may have ASSUMED he would get military chutes? The thought may have never occurred to him that they might get them from a sport jumping center. Again it's guessing, but if I had to guess, it seems [to me] like he expected military. This whole "rejected military chutes" mythology has led to a lot of bad thinking?

The possibility that he thought he would get the rigs from McChord has been discussed already. No "mythology" here.

btw, Ckret's theory from an earlier post: Cooper was in the military during the time frame of 1946 to 1951, give or take a few years. He was stationed out of McChord or Ft Lewis. He served on an air crew in some capacity and received cursory training in emergency exit (which is why he chose the military chute over the obvious choice, it was all he knew).

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maybe true. But Cossey packed it and believed that whoever was going to use it would use it and survive. So now we're saying that Cossey packed a chute that had a lower expectation of success. I'm not sure why I should believe that? Unless you're saying Cossey packed a chute such that trained experts would be successful, but novices less successful. Maybe. All that does is lower the probability of success by some factor. It doesn't guarantee death.

Yeah, maybe... but then Cossey also gave him one unusable reserve, remember. I seem to recall reading that Cossey was in a rush to get the stuff together hence the error.

But actually this makes me think. Cooper asked for 4 chutes. Cossey gives him 4, but at least one and maybe two of them are of no practical use. You want a conspiracy theory? Maybe Cossey was waiting on the ground for someone to bounce to take the cash off them

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oh ps: we actually don't really know if the placard should have blown out. We don't know the attach method, whether Cooper removed it, or even if Flight 305 still had it's placard when it landed.

The placard that blew off the door was found and identified as belonging to the plane. Have you actually read these threads...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[labrys 0]

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Well he did admit to it on his deathbed.

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So all deathbed confessions are automatically true?
It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then.

That's an outstanding job of taking a quote out of context. Someone suggested that Weber might not have wanted to be connected with Cooper. Someone else pointed out that he made a deathbed confession. Where in the hell did ANYONE suggest that what he said was true or false.

Way to go, Orange. There's nothing like skewing the hell out of a statement to mock it. Kicked any dogs today?

Owned by Remi #?

[snowmman 3]

I have posted details of the McNally hijack on June 23-24, 1972, culminating in a night jump. Thought it would be useful to detail his money container, jump, and rig acquisition, compared to Cooper.

McNally asked for, and got, $502,000. (some say $502,200]. McNally's money apparently arrived in a "American Airlines mail pouch". I doubt the container was specified by McNally that way. Maybe he didn't specify.

Unlike McCoy, but like Cooper, McNally asked for and got parachuting equipment. I don't know what kind of rig he received.

McNally jumped at 3 A.M. in Indiana with a claimed air speed of 263 knots and altitude = 10,000 ft.

McNally lost the money on the jump. It was found by a farmer who later quibbled about the size of his reward.

http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/464749
appeal:
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/485/398/

Now given the Loss of Money by McNally, Cooper's request for just $200,000 might be seen in a more positive light...i.e. better planned? $500k was too much?

If Cooper's plan was to use the chest containers to hold money, maybe he should have just jammed in as much as would fit? But maybe he realized they didn't attach to his harness anyhow.

In terms of "skill levels", McNally has been described as an "unemployed veteran" but his jump training is unknown (to me). Below, an article says "Airline attendants later said he had difficulty understanding how to use the parachute."

Based on these facts, if McNally hadn't been found, would you assume him to be dead or alive?

It appears he was only found based on "reliable information" at home in Michigan..Apparently this was an informant named Petlikowsky who walked into a police station to talk. Petlikowsky apparently planned it with McNally for 5 months. (Petlikowsky was charged with aiding and abetting)

McNally also carried a briefcase, into which he had fitted a sawed off machine gun.

The FBI said his original plan was to jump near Monroe, Mich, 40 miles from where he lived.

Even though they found the money and gun and chute in the Indiana field, would they have found McNally without a buddy who turned?

Would he have not lost the money if he had been smarter about the size and the bag attach?

Is the assumption that McNally had mad jumping skillz?

McCoy is not the right hijack to compare to Cooper.
McNally is.

Note: they even had smuggled a FBI agent onto the plane as a "pilot".

I don't know what clothes McNally was wearing, if that's really important, or if he wore googles or jump boots.
Maybe someone else knows?

EDIT: here's a dramatic update
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/itemsofinterest/centennial/centennial_storypage.asp?ID=070729_1_A4_spanc01672
or
http://www.tulsaworld.com/TWPDFs/2007/Final/W_070807_A_4.pdf
apparently there were two FBI agents on the plane? and one showed him how to rig up and jump? I don't know if this is true (the article says it) but it doesn't sound like mad skillz. I don't know if there were injuries due to the exit or the landing.

If McNally achieved this, how am I supposed to correlate the opinions expressed here, and the success/failure predictions for Cooper?

[snowmman 3]

Evidently not all of the capture detail was in my prior post, and it's funny/interesting.
Attached is a news article from 7/1/72.
Apparently he was picked up by a local cop and kept under surveillance? He apparently lost his pants on the jump, but found a new pair of pants. Got a bruised face on the jump. (plus some other bruises apparently from rig straps?)

Note pilots told FBI that they expected he died on the jump because of the speed. Much like people have said about Cooper, actually.

His partner didn't turn until the police pointed out how bad his story was.

Hmm..amazing how the details of things are always more complicated than you first read about. I'm still not sure about all the details of this McNally thing.

It looks like it was Detroit Police who cracked the case, not FBI Although the FBI claims they had prints from the hijack note.

Also, correlating to the note about difficulties understand the rig (above) one article suggested this could have been McNally's first jump. Don't know for sure.

[quade 4]

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He apparently lost his pants on the jump . . .

Certainly you mean either before (unlikely) or after the jump. Certainly not on the jump.

That would take a magician.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

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Well he did admit to it on his deathbed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So all deathbed confessions are automatically true?
It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then.

That's an outstanding job of taking a quote out of context. Someone suggested that Weber might not have wanted to be connected with Cooper. Someone else pointed out that he made a deathbed confession. Where in the hell did ANYONE suggest that what he said was true or false.

Way to go, Orange. There's nothing like skewing the hell out of a statement to mock it. Kicked any dogs today?

?? I interpreted the sentence as implying that it must have been true if it was a deathbed confession - a point of view that comes up every so often (i.e. "why would Duane have said that if it wasn't true" has been used a number of times to help support the case that it was him). I do apologise if I offended your sensibilities by misinterpreting something - assuming I actually did.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Hi quade.
I know it sounds crazy.
But I posted the news article that describes the pants issue. You can read it above (the 2nd post/pdf)

I suppose they found pants with the chute and gun? (don't know how close). But then they wonder how McNally made it back to Michigan from Indiana (they weren't sure how) and he had pants. It sounds dumb once you think of the rig straps, eh?

Maybe he left "spare" pants he didn't use with the chute? More likely someone messed up in the initial story, I suppose.

It looks like after 7/1/72 they don't repeat the pants angle anymore.

What's also funny, is that there were a number of reports of pants found in the Cooper jump zone thru the years.

Some articles imply McNally was just "holding" the money bag, but that's hard to believe. He must have attached it somehow...dunno...it blew away no matter what.

BUT: assuming he kept his pants..it does tell us that there's an existence proof for novice jumper, just wearing pants, at night? don't know what shoes or if had goggles.

Interestingly, if he didn't lose his pants (shred) that's good data too. Means Cooper might not have been noticeable from shredded pants!

(I almost love talking about pants theories more than rubber band theories!)

And we're not even past question 96 yet!

[Erroll 80]

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....(I almost love talking about pants theories more than rubber band theories!)

Clearly the next step is to conduct experiments to establish the float time of those pants.
Is it know what he had for his last meal, prior to exiting the aircraft?

[Orange1 0]

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apparently there were two FBI agents on the plane? and one showed him how to rig up and jump? I don't know if this is true (the article says it) but it doesn't sound like mad skillz. I don't know if there were injuries due to the exit or the landing.

If McNally achieved this, how am I supposed to correlate the opinions expressed here, and the success/failure predictions for Cooper?

No idea how you can correlate it, especially considering that very experienced people still can and do die on skydives. However, you do point out that someone showed McNally how to rig up and jump. We still have no idea if anyone ever showed Cooper how to do that...or if he needed it, because we have no idea if he was a novice or someone a lot more experienced.
Of course, McNally as comparison might also have more weight if he we knew he was also jumping a rig with a very hard pull.


re this

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Based on these facts, if McNally hadn't been found, would you assume him to be dead or alive?

well, i don't know much about Indiana really. How does the terrain where he jumped compare to the area where Cooper jumped?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

Excellent work! Nobody can dig out stuff quite like you. This information, while it has certain limitations is a helpful comparison to Cooper’s jump. Especially the reported speed and the apparent lack of jump experience. Notice the terms “reported” and “apparent”. That’s because I see some of the same “mindless media” characteristics in these articles as I have seen in the last 34 years in the reporting of NORJAK.

I found this statement particularly interesting:
“McNally, an unemployed service station attendant, was arrested at his home. He had been questioned and released by Peru police the night after the skyjacking.”

The fact he was released doesn’t necessarily mean he wasn’t still a suspect, but we’ll never know. I wonder, how many cops might have stopped Cooper in the first 72 hours after NORJAKand decided he wasn’t “a person of interest”?

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well, i don't know much about Indiana really. How does the terrain where he jumped compare to the area where Cooper jumped?

Orange1,

See: REL_IN_RED ANN.jpg and Rel_Wa_RED_ANN.jpg (Attached).

Sluggo_Monster



Updated to show jump points on relief maps.

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[AggieDave 6]

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Is it know what he had for his last meal, prior to exiting the aircraft?

Duane said that he had a pizza delivered. Why can't the FBI prove that he did have a pizza delivered in mid flight? It has to be true, why can't the FBI prove it to be true?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

AggieDave,

I'll bet your parents are really proud of you.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Ckret 0]

I am now back in the USA and home in Seattle, sadly I did not find DB Cooper on my travels so this thread must continue.

The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like these. In this case SeaFirst Bank essentially loaned the money to NWA, who then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up paying the claim after a court battle.

[Ckret 0]

Jo, the tie and clasp were found in the seats Cooper had been sitting in. No one else had been sitting in those seats and no one else had been reported to have been wearing a black tie with a pearl clasp.

From this, the only reasonable conclusion is that it was Cooper's, however, Tina did not see Cooper take it off and put it on the seat.

[Ckret 0]

Canopus, nothing new has developed in the case, YET, but with all of the media driven attention and new focus, something will happen soon. What, I don't know? maybe resolution, maybe more mystery, but regardless there is a better chance now then had we done nothing.

[AggieDave 6]

Actually they are, my real life career involves a lot of investigating and I've become very good at it. When a witness, supposed witness or informant is unable to have a story that has any continuity or known fact, many times its simply a fabrication. This is many times manifested by strong emotional responses and anger at the investigators for not proving their story correctly and fully. This charade continues as "facts" originally stated by the RP continually change when individual facets of the investigation quickly and easily prove that things stated are fabricated untruths.

This is not the typical response of a person with a true and sane factual story.

This is not mean, this is simply the reality of real investigators conducting real investigations.

Personally I think Cooper survived the initial jump to have had been injured on landing. I think he then died while trying to survive in the pacific northwest while being injured and over the course of multiple days while trying to make it out of the woods with what little of his money survived the jump with him.

The harness, container and canopy were probably buried after landing. Buried poorly due to a lack of tools and injuries. Why? That's what the commandos did on the WWII movies that had been made over the years. I really do not believe the real Cooper had any actual or real paratrooper or skydiving training, although he may have been a load master or similar in the military.

That's my gut feeling of the case. I'm not supposing any of it as fact and I'm not asking anyone to prove it for me. Honestly I don't believe that the case will be solved or even can be solved, minus someone stumbling upon the body or gear used.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

Snowman, from Coopers actions, statements and witness statements, I believe the only reasonable conclusion was that Cooper wanted to use one of the belly containers to store the money. When he realized the container was to small he choose option B which was to cut lines and tie up his sack (of money).

[Ckret 0]

Jo wrote "A lot of valid questions that requires data from the witnesses and or their statements.

The interpretaion question is very good - Why would Ckrets's be any better than Himmelsbach's? I do know that Ckrets interpretations are NOT based on the knowledge of 1971 - because he argued with me about the FBI's printing system and how it was in 1971. He never has admitted he could
be wrong. Well, he is wrong and if he were to talk to the people who developed the system he would know that what I told him is correct.
Not all prints put into the system were checked against prior records unless there was a request or need to do so. I even went so far as to state one such case, but it was like pouring water over a ducks back - he is right and no one else knows anything (How old was he in 1971?).

Sorry, Ckret - but what I just said is true. Until the FBI can swallow a little pride and admit to having made some mistakes this case will never be solved. I want Duane's old prints from his prior incarcerations compared to what they had on the FBI system in 1971. Not what they had on it after that date...but what was there in 1971 - you know were I am going on this. "


Jo, this is what you took away from our conversation?
Really?

And to your thoughts about the case, FBI agents are like everyone else, human, and all humans make mistakes in all aspects of their lives.

Were mistakes made on the Cooper case? Mistakes are made on every case investigated. When given the ability to look back 40 years on what the investigators did or did not do of course things can be pointed out.

Were there any blunders? Not that I can find. The FBI put everything they had into solving this case and to this day continue to give it the the same effort.

[Ckret 0]

Reference to the McNally case, what was the key indicator the Captain used in basing his belief that McNally jumped from the plane? Answer: Pressure bump or "shift" as he called it. Just confirmation that the airstairs slamming back into the aircraft when someone jumps from them in flight causes a sudden perssure increase in the cabin.

[Orange1 0]

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See: REL_IN_RED ANN.jpg and Rel_Wa_RED_ANN.jpg (Attached).

I can't get the WA image to open for some reason. I'm no expert on these types of things at all and I can't compare the two because i can only open the one... but would IN be a much easier terrain to find stuff (like the farmer found the money, for example) than WA, given the descriptions before given here?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Reference to the McNally case, what was the key indicator the Captain used in basing his belief that McNally jumped from the plane? Answer: Pressure bump or "shift" as he called it. Just confirmation that the airstairs slamming back into the aircraft when someone jumps from them in flight causes a sudden perssure increase in the cabin.

Ckret,

I want you to take these comments in the spirit they are given. I do not wish to alienate the best thing (FBI Agent) that has happened to “amateur NORJAK investigators” since the crime occurred. [Editor’s note: This is definitely “sucking up” to Ckret] But, I don’t understand FBI procedures, and I don’t understand what the FBI’s priorities are (even though I sure NORJAK is waaaay down on the list).

But from reading this (quoted) post, I get the feeling that you are unfamiliar with the McNally incident. It’s almost as if you just heard about it from this thread. If not, I think you would have cited this (the pressure bump) before. So, the question that comes to my (admittedly small) mind is: “Why isn’t that information in the background files for NORJAK.”

The stuff that the FBI has on their web site (supposedly FOIA documents) is full of crap that anyone can find on the internet (understanding the internet was not there when it was assembled). It offers nothing (in my mind) to assist an investigator in “solving the crime.” Yet, the McNally story, offers powerful insight into the survivability of a novice jumper at high airspeeds (if the press reports are accurate).

So, what gives?

Are you sick of me? Huh… are you?… are you?

Good to see you posting again,

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I can't get the WA image to open for some reason. I'm no expert on these types of things at all and I can't compare the two because i can only open the one... but would IN be a much easier terrain to find stuff (like the farmer found the money, for example) than WA, given the descriptions before given here?

Orange1

Oh Man!

It’s such a good illustration of just what your conclusion is.

Try hitting refresh, since I uploaded annotated files in the edit (the files should have ANN in their name)

I used to fly in WI, IL, and IN. The pilot of a small plane had only two consideration when making an emergency landing. (1) Soy-bean field (gear up) or (2) Corn field (fixed gear). The whole state of Indiana (except the extreme south) is a freaking emergency airport.

You’ll notice both finds were in “Farmer’s Fields.”

Try again, it is very illustrative.

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

Brian Ingram has done a lot of interviews as part of his money auction. Although we all know reporters get things messed up, it's been curious to me that he consistently says something about the bundle positioning and rubber bands, but the language changes sometimes.

I'm half thinking he's had too much prompting from the FBI, or wants to keep the mystery in the story. This, along with other details, tells me we really don't understand the money find fully.

He has described the bundles as
"all meshed together"
or
"touching each other"
or
"stacked neatly on top of one another"

(Google search those exact phrases, along with Brian Ingram and you'll find the references)

Another random funny coincidence: Brian, after high school, joined the Army for 3 years and ended up as a medic in an airborne division, apparently.