happythoughts 0 #1976 June 3, 2008 clicky QuoteI spent a month or two in the the dead winter of 1971 looking for DB while I was stationed at Fort Lewis with the the Third Cav.They called it adventure training I carried the radio for my captain and was close to the FBI agents every day. I saw a map overlay of where they thought DB droped from the plane along with the wind pattern. At the very spot where they estimated his chute opened I found a brown penny loafer in the woods next to a remote farm field. His drift would have landed him in the middle Lake Merwin. A man made lake near Woodland WA. this lake was dammed, filled and "never" logged. I'am sure that if he landed in that lake on that stormy cold night he would have sunk to the bottom and gotten hung up with his chute in the uncut timber at the bottom of the lake. I never saw or heard of that penny loafer again. I have been trying to contact Galen Cook or anybody interested about this. We spent long cold days searching and were flown out by helicopter every morning to new search sites. It was cold and snowy and we camped in a field a few miles from the lake for almost two months. Does anybody even know about this? The ground up money was found in the columbia river well below the lake. That shoe could have been anyones, but it sure is interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #1977 June 3, 2008 Snowman, You keep finding new clues in old stuff... pretty impressive to me. The glasses issue with Duane was literally staring me right in the face but I missed it. One thing for sure is that your glasses wouldn't stay on during exit. My goggles which were always plenty tight were ripped off my face and lodged up against my helmet rim on my jet jump. What was Duane's uncorrected vision in 71? You'd have to see pretty well to have any hope of making a good landing. The glasses issue doesn't rule Duane out 100%, but it raises some questions. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dyskiver 0 #1978 June 3, 2008 ***QuoteThis is the part that you are missing - they didn't check the prior prints before the FBI did it's computer system. The young agents think it is infallible - but most of the prints put into the system at set-up and in the early yrs were NEVER checked against prior incarcerations. The are archived in Washington DC in a warehouse - individuals with multiple incarceration - their prints were NOT checked and the last incarceration prints where the only ones used --- and Duane's come from the time frame and prison that did manage to get prints altered prior to their being put into the computer system. THIS IS A FACT. ______________________________________________ I seem to remember reading something I believe was in the locked thread about this. If I remember correctly there was actual proof. Maybe I'm wrong and I dont feel like reading the old thread to find it. Seriously though, why haven't all Duanes prints been looked at? There would be a set of prints from everytime he was arrested along with his different alias's. Wouldnt that be the end all if his last set of prints were altered and a match was found from a previous conviction under an alias? Just a thought! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1979 June 3, 2008 happythoughts, you might have a good find here: QuoteI saw a map overlay of where they thought DB droped from the plane along with the wind pattern. At the very spot where they estimated his chute opened I found a brown penny loafer in the woods next to a remote farm field. That shoe story is interesting cause Bill Rattie mentions the predicted DZ map and drift lines?, and he posted his comment on Jan 2 '08, at the site you linked to. I think that was before Ckret released the '72 DZ map here at DZ.com? So it wouldn't be common knowledge unless you were really involved in the search? That map wasn't available publicly before Ckret's release, or no? Bill says it was dead of winter in '71. So the search may have crossed over to Jan '72 when the DZ map we have was supposedly created? Bill says he was camped out there for two months. The shoe story made me think this would be a good time to mention again the "Strange Man Walking On Lewis River Rd." story. This is from a newspaper article, talking about the night of 11/24/71. Harold may not have reported it right away. The news article is from 11/29/76 (attached) "Harold Babitzke. who lives five miles from town, said his daughter was startled by "a strange man" carrying a package under his arm on Lewis River Road, which runs past Ariel. "He looked like he didn't want a ride from anybody." Babitzke said. "I really think it was Cooper." I tracked down the apparent Harold Babitzke street address [not included for privacy] but position is: 45°59'34.57"N 122°31'48.42"W [Edit] Google Earth show some cleared fields in that area currently. It's very near the top drift line..right above Lake Merwin. The article mentions the FBI following this lead to a dead end but who knows. I guess not much you could do with it anyhow. Be interesting if Ckret can find anything about it in the files. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1980 June 3, 2008 1977 was a very good yr. Quote But Gossett did confess to at least two people, according to Cook. One is a retired Salt Lake City judge who was Gossett’s boss and close friend when he worked in the Salt Lake City public defender’s office. “Wolfgang and I were on very good terms,” the judge recalled in his interview with Galen Cook. “In 1977 he walked into my office and closed the door and said he thought he might be in some trouble, that he was involved in a hijacking in Portland and Seattle a few years ago and that he might have left prints behind. He said he was D.B. Cooper. I told him to keep his mouth shut and don’t do anything stupid, and not to bring it up again.” It was August of 1977 that I met Duane L. Weber. On March 28, 1978 we were married in Littleton, Co. with Paul and Phyllis Schnitzer in attendance.... In that same time period Duane had the terrible nightmare. I believe it was around the time of our wedding which had been delayed due to broken ribs from digging in the snow in a graveyard on our way to Co. from Ga. He was mumbling in his sleep. I started trying to talk to him but he was deep into this nightmare. He states frantically "I left my prints on the Aft Stairs" and then "I am going to die" With a blood curdling scream he wakes up with hand extended as if he is trying to hold on to something. I have written about this before and sorry to bore the forum, but I find it ODD that Cook puts Gossetts visit with the Judge in the same time frame. If Duane was truely worried about our marriage and his pulling me into something sinister - I believe he may have talked to someone about his fear. Repeat Quote from Judge: "said he thought he might be in some trouble, that he was involved in a hijacking in Portland and Seattle a few years ago and that he might have left prints behind." Could Gossett have went to the Judge for a friend? He does not say that he was the hijacker and could this not have been tongue in cheek to find out information for a friend? Because of this being in the same time frame - either Cook has fabricated this or the judge is being misquoted or it is a very strange ODD coincidence, that Cooks story and Duane's story go hand in hand.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1981 June 3, 2008 QuoteWhat was Duane's uncorrected vision in 71? You'd have to see pretty well to have any hope of making a good landing. The glasses issue doesn't rule Duane out 100%, but it raises some questions. Duane's vision in 1971 - I don't know , but in 1977 he did not wear his glasses for distance. In the 1980's I saw him fire a gun without his glasses and he pointed at a twigg and it was gone. I will check thru his things that I kept and see if there is an old prescription there or a pair of glasses from the last few yrs of his life, but I think I donated them to charity. I believe he was far sighted and he rarely wore glasses during the first few yrs we were together. He did not use them to drive at all until the last few yrs of his life.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #1982 June 3, 2008 Another thought... if the shoe existed, and was kept... I would think that no one would go out and buy a special pair of shoes, so... he would have spent many an hour walking and sweating in them. That said, I don't know if DNA can be extracted from shoes easily (perhaps the liner on the bottom). If the shoe is still laying around in an evidence box somewhere, a match to something on the tie would be something quite interesting. Ckret, is/was there such a shoe, or more fiction? edited to add: If it is A Shoe and not two shoes neatly placed together on the ground somewhere, it would support my theory of the 200mph prop wash knocking him for a very unstable exit and a solo shoe lost. A solo shoe lost on exit would place the exit point very closely with little movement because of wind. Shoes do not have a great glide path. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #1983 June 3, 2008 Sounds like Duane could see OK without glasses. I wear prescription goggles when I jump. I'd have a tough time landing off DZ without them, especially at night. The term "aft" in my experience is used mostly by people familiar with boats. It is used in aviation, but less so with "rear" being more common. Did Duane ever use nautical terms like fore, aft, port, starboard etc?2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1984 June 3, 2008 Quote Weber's prints were compared to those recovered from flight 305. There are no other prints to compare. If this is true why did you argue with me on the phone that day about the system. You said his prints where checked against those in the system...which would have been the last prints taken. The last prints taken I have explained over and over - where swapped out before they went into the system. You have to get the archived prints from the Washington DC archives. You yourself explained about the older prints being archived Washington DC. I explained that James Earl Ray changed his prints as did several others in Jefferson. but you blindly refuse to accept that the system was not infallible. You have produce nothing to inform me that you did check out ALL of his prints and not just those in the System. If you have done this I need verification of that. Strange that you made the off the hand remark about the prints on Gossett as though it was a new idea or thought. I have only been told that Duane's prints where checked against those in the Computer System - not the archived prints...you yourself said the archived prints were NOT done on the phone and that is why I was upset with you months ago. We don't know if any of the prints on the plane are Coopers and I am only going by the fear in his dream.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1985 June 3, 2008 QuoteI have been meaning to ask you this for months now, what information do you have that the DNA is compromised You read the forum don't you. It is here. You read the emails I sent to you months ago, didn't you? That tie was handled by several agents over the yrs without gloves and since the cigarette butts are LOST that means: DNA EVIDENCE I have to question the validity of DNA testing done to exclude individuals concerning the D. B. Cooper incident in 1971. In the past 36 years the evidence may have been compromised. Considering that the study of DNA did not exist until the late 1980’s, it is highly unlikely that the evidence was preserved in a manner that would have protected the DNA. I therefore, would question any DNA evidence that excluded anyone without further investigation in what items were used to extract DNA and VERIFICATION that the CHAIN OF CUSTODY was maintained throughout the last 36 yrs, when dealing with and handling this item. The only DNA evidence I consider valid would be the cigarette butts. BUT, the FBI can’t find them. There are too many questions unanswered. October 27, 2007 ALSO: In regards to the DNA taken from me for Duane L. Weber. This DNA was not requested until 2003 (eight yrs after Duane died). Then as per the report ACCIDENTALLY left in the box with the DNA when it was returned to me in March of 2007 (4 yrs later) the dates of the testing was in Late 2006 and early 2007. So those items are 12 yrs old and handled by many before it left my home - most had been cleaned and tried on and some I was not sure if Duane ever used, but I sent what I had except for two items I will not let out of my site...I know that the DNA on them would be mine and Duane's and I will allow swabs to be made of them in my presence. You asked and I have told you before - Most individuals in this forum knew the answer to that one. PS. If the Verification of Chain of Evidence had been kept the FBI would have those butts...and we would not have a DNA problem.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ckret 0 #1986 June 3, 2008 who provided you with and what information do you have that agents did not properly handle the evidence in this case with regard to collection and processing procedures. If the cigarette butts were destroyed it was done by an evidence custodian long after they were collected, processed at the lab and sent back to the division for storage. If they were destroyed it would have been a mistake but one made I am sure in good faith. The butts were processed, photographed and had given all they could with regard to the investigative techniques of the day. Why they wouldn't have continued to store them i don't know, but I am sure they thought, why keep them, the case is not activly being investigated and they are no longer of value. I'll answer my own question, you don't have any information that points to the collection procedures used by agents because nothing has ever been released or reported on the matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1987 June 3, 2008 Hi Jo, So if Duane didn't wear his glasses much for distance, you must have some photos of him without glasses post '71. Could you post one or two? It sounds like you have quite a collection, so just thinking probability, it should be easy to find one or two? thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1988 June 3, 2008 QuoteDNA - No - it is compromised and they need to have Duane's actual DNA. If they have CONCLUSIVE complete DNA then yes. FINGERPRINTS - Yes and No. Nothing is conclusive until they check the archived prints on Duane against what was left on the plane and the FBI file on Duane. Sorry but the answers are conditional on the factors involved. I don't think your answers are conditional at all!! What you are saying is that even if another suspect's DNA and fingerprints match, you still won't accept it!! What do you think, there were two people in the plane both wearing the tie AND handling the evidence retrieved from the plane?! In other words you simply won't accept anything that doesn't show it was Duane... For the sake of the rest of the debate and as it is an issue again under discussion by a few people, can you please post the PROOF that Duane changed his fingerprints. (rather than what seems to me to be hearsay that James Earl Ray changed his, I thought we had decided we weren't investigating the MLK assassination...)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1989 June 3, 2008 fwiw, I also think it is very clear that Agent Carr would like to solve the DB Cooper case. This makes me think that if he saw any value at all in chasing the Duane Weber link any further, he would. Considering the tone/invective Jo has used in many of her posts towards him, I also think he must be a man of considerable patience. Incidentally, Jo I notice all your (c) Jo Weber which makes me wonder - you remarried after Duane died, right? How come you kept Weber as your last name rather than changing it?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1990 June 3, 2008 from the shoe find story: Quote I spent a month or two in the the dead winter of 1971 looking for DB while I was stationed at Fort Lewis with the the Third Cav. The 3rd Armored Cavalry mentioned below in news articles could very likely be the 3rd Cav mentioned by the supposed shoe finder.. 3rd Cav is an armor division?, they were stationed at Fort Lewis. I'm trying to check out the other details in the posted "shoe found" story. Deployment details for the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Apparently they were at Fort Lewis in '71. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/3acr.htm "The Regiment remained in Germany until July 1968, when the Regiment redeployed to Fort Lewis, Washington...In 1972, the Regiment relocated to Fort Bliss, Texas" snippets from Google News Daily Times-News, The (Newspaper) - March 23, 1972, Burlington, North... ... Hijacker Goes Ou ..Helicopters of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Ft. Lewis, Wash. prepare to land after making a terrain ..." Apparently the search was for 6 weeks? Used 9 helicoptors and led by J. Earle Mimes. Sounds like it was maybe Feb/Mar '72. Maybe the "shoe find" author misremembered winter '71 vs early '72? Press-Telegram (Newspaper) - March 24, 1972, Long Beach, California "... and nine helicopters from Ft. Lewis and FBI agents led by J. Earle Mimes, director of the bureau's Seattle office... A search of the area was abandoned after several weeks. ..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1991 June 3, 2008 interesting stuff.. wonder what happened to the shoe. also interesting the poster reckoned it put him in the middle of the lake. old-timers: would the chances of injuring an ankle be high landing without shoes in rough terrain on a round...?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BigSky 2 #1992 June 3, 2008 Jo, have you ever herd the expression "you catch more flies with honey"? Here you have an agent asking you for info and you take the opportunity to bash the FBI. If it were me I would be as nice as I can to these people even if I thought they were a bunch of ass hats. It sure would be nice if you could produce some of your evidence at least for the main points of your story. The trip you took to the NW around the time the money was found. Can you produce some proof to put him in the area at that time? The letter you say you have form Duane to a friend saying he needs to lay low, can you produce that? How about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1993 June 3, 2008 QuoteHow about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack? The John Collins alias is one assertion that has had other back-up. Interestingly there is another thread that states that Duane was in prison under the John Collins alias at the time of the hijack, Jo disputes that hotly but also admits that Duane "disappeared" around that time and no-one knew where he was, so she can't actually prove that he wasn't in prison either.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1994 June 3, 2008 It always pays to reexamine all our evidence biases under different lights to see if it creates any new thoughts. 1) Assuming Cooper didn't tie everything to himself (briefcase, the training reserve), then he must have thrown that stuff out since it wasn't on the plane on landing. So anything "found" on the ground could have been just thrown out, and might not imply something else. 2) We've debated before whether Cooper might have had other shoes for jumping. If so, the "loafers" may have been tossed. I'm just throwing out ideas why a found shoe may not require a broken ankle. But it could. 3) We've got new info from Ckret that Cooper got the rig on, and tied up the money bag, while the plane was on the ground. I'm assuming that means Tina DID NOT see Cooper with the rest of the crap (training reserve/briefcase) tied to himself. If he's getting ready on the ground, wouldn't he get EVERYTHING tied up..because of the difficulties in tying while the plane is climbing and he's about to jump and dealing with the stairs. .... BUT: if a shoe was found, why wouldn't any of this other "stuff" have been found? I mean it would have been bigger stuff. And it's hard to believe Cooper tied it all to himself? So he's not going to be able to bury it on landing.. So I'm thinking stuff was tossed. If a shoe was found, I'm having a hard time understanding why other stuff wasn't found. [Edit] Maybe he tossed some stuff out very early..so it landed miles away from stuff like shoe..deep in woods and unfindable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ckret 0 #1995 June 3, 2008 I'll vouch for the Collins name for Jo, Weber used the following names: Duane Weber Duane L Weber Duane Lorin Weber Duane Larin Weber Duane Loren Weber John Collins John Chalk Collins John Claudin Collins John Claudian Collins He also used different dates of birth and Socials. Weber was arrested 26 times under the various names provided (arrests that were submitted to the FBI, there could have been more but for minor offenses) starting on 12/22/1942 and ending on 06/27/1976. All 26 arrest would have been processed by the sheriff's department were the arrest occurred or the United States Marshal Service (he committed a few federal crimes). One set of prints would have been maintained by the local arresting authority the other copy sent to the FBI. When the FBI receives the prints they create a "Master Set" of prints related to each person that prints are submitted for. If there are multiple sets for one person, the techs will use the best prints from each set to make one best Master Set. The odds that Weber was able to have someone on the inside of the FBI to alter this process is not a reality. Someone suggested comparing all prints taken from Weber (AKA) et al to those recovered from flight 305. All of the prints are at the FBI, or at least the 26 I referenced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1996 June 3, 2008 Quote Incidentally, Jo I notice all your (c) Jo Weber which makes me wonder - you remarried after Duane died, right? How come you kept Weber as your last name rather than changing it? As Jo Weber I have some privacy. When I went public My phone range off the hook and I was approached by one con after another. Yes, I remarried but I use Jo Weber when dealing with Cooper - this way I do not get the phone calls I was getting.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #1997 June 3, 2008 QuoteBUT: if a shoe was found, why wouldn't any of this other "stuff" have been found? snowmman, I find the shoe story as compelling as anything I have read lately, but, I would caution those who are assigning it to NORJAK without some other evidence linking it. A penny loafer found in a remote area is pretty strange in and of itself. So, I guess it’s natural (under the circumstances it was found) to want to make a logical link to NORJAK. I think, if that link was made at the time, we would have heard about it (from Ckret or someone else). As far as the issue of one shoe found and the other missing, as well as the briefcase, front chute, etc. I know from experience that the other shoe (regardless of how it got there) could be twenty yards away and never have been located. I have spent a lot of time looking for man-made objects in the wilderness, including many that have their own 0.511 MeV, 0.662 MeV, or 1.17 MeV radio beacons and if the other shoe landed under a bush, near the trunk, it may never be found. So, IMHO talk about broken ankles and such is premature. But, I sure would love to hear what happened to that shoe after it was found! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1998 June 3, 2008 QuoteSo anything "found" on the ground could have been just thrown out, and might not imply something else. 2) We've debated before whether Cooper might have other shoes for jumping. If so, the "loafers" may have been tossed.------ 3) We've got new info from Ckret that Cooper got the rig on, and tied up the money bag, while the plane was on the ground. I'm assuming that means Tina DID NOT see Cooper with the rest of the crap (training reserve/briefcase) tied to himself. But - if Tina saw Cooper with the rig already on -it is probably safe to assume that if he had changed any of his attire to get ready for jumping (like shoes) she would have noticed?? or noticed discarded items of clothing (that could be tossed later) lying around? Doesn't this argue against the "toss" theory? The problem would come in for those who think an experienced jumper is a more likely candidate, because one wouldn't have been dumb enough to jump with shoes. (So maybe Cooper hid the items away ready for tossing, or Tina just didn't notice, and that is probably more than enough rambling for one post.) ckret, do you know anything about this found loafer? and do you know what the history was of the co-operation between the FBI and this military unit that was searching?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1999 June 3, 2008 Quote How about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack? I did post that in the old thread. The Commentation of Sentence from Jefferson is in the name John C. Collins and that is in this thread. The FBI knows he lived and worked as John C. Collins from 1962 until 1968. The SS number and other things have been on line. He also worked for Pyramid Life Insurance as a leading agent for a couple of yrs under that name...and was an award winning agent. That company would not state anything other than they had purged their records for that time period. His wife only knew him as John C. Collins and used the name Collins. His stepchildren only knew him as John Collins and I have met a man who only knew him as John Collins. ----------------------------------------QuoteThe John Collins alias is one assertion that has had other back-up. Interestingly there is another thread that states that Duane was in prison under the John Collins alias at the time of the hijack, Jo disputes that hotly but also admits that Duane "disappeared" around that time and no-one knew where he was, so she can't actually prove that he wasn't in prison either. I do not remember where that information came from, but I am aware that someone stated that. But it is a fact that he WAS not in Prison or in Jail during those 3 months. The"disappearing" during that time was the exwife who said that she left him in Nov and that they did not get back together until Feb., but that story she changed during the last few yrs of her life and was disputed by other. She later changed her story - when talking about going to N.Y. to greet the 1972 New Yr. The purchase of 2 cars prior to Feb also disputed that. Statements made to me by two other individuals who knew Duane disputed that. His employer of the time - it was the Holidays and with insurance sales some agents do not work from Thanksgiving until a couple of wks into the New Yr. The employer did say that when asked about his injuries he stated that he got them trimming a tree in front of his house during the Holidays. The wife chuckled and said there was NO tree in their yard. Also during this 3 month time span was a "trip' to CA to San Franciso and to see his sister. A trip talked about by both Duane and the wife but without a time frame on it. Both of them talked about how she loved to ride the trolley cars - up and back, up and back. Mentioned in the same trip was the sister and Reno - and the stories about the slot machines. When he took me to Wa in 1979 when we left there we went to Tahoe and he said 'We aren't going to Reno" - He did not answer my question of "Why?" I believe that he was reliving that time in his mind - all of the places we went to in WA and then to a gambling area - all not too far from where his sister had lived in 1971 and from where the note to the Reno Newspaper was sent. A note with a penciled address on it which the FBI doesn't seem to want to bother retrive when that handwriting might be Duane"s. I will put it this way - if you had knowledge of a crime that might incriminate you, would you not keep your mouth shut? This was the mother of 5 kids with 2 still at home. I cannot divulge the full extent of the conversations she and I shared - for one thing it would be more of she said and she said. Haven't we had enough of that? What I can prove - I cannot use.......no one would believe it anyway. The things that the FBI could do they do not do. Does anyone think I enjoy living this limbo life and be ridculed - If you knew me you would know that is not how I wanted to live my life, but I CHOSE to fight for the truth and the proof. I do NOT understand how difficult it would be to retrieve that envelope, check the prints the proper way and verify the DNA. All CARR does is come back and ask the same questions of me over and over - When he can study the history of the computer Print System - WHY ask me to provide the proof. All I can provide are articles stating what Ray did and that it was well known that this print change did happen in that era - I don't know that Duane managed to do it - but the FBI should be willing to prove to the general population that it didn't happen.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BigSky 2 #2000 June 3, 2008 Ok so we know he was John Collins. So how can we get a statement from the hotel clerk?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 Next Page 80 of 2576 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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snowmman 3 #1979 June 3, 2008 happythoughts, you might have a good find here: QuoteI saw a map overlay of where they thought DB droped from the plane along with the wind pattern. At the very spot where they estimated his chute opened I found a brown penny loafer in the woods next to a remote farm field. That shoe story is interesting cause Bill Rattie mentions the predicted DZ map and drift lines?, and he posted his comment on Jan 2 '08, at the site you linked to. I think that was before Ckret released the '72 DZ map here at DZ.com? So it wouldn't be common knowledge unless you were really involved in the search? That map wasn't available publicly before Ckret's release, or no? Bill says it was dead of winter in '71. So the search may have crossed over to Jan '72 when the DZ map we have was supposedly created? Bill says he was camped out there for two months. The shoe story made me think this would be a good time to mention again the "Strange Man Walking On Lewis River Rd." story. This is from a newspaper article, talking about the night of 11/24/71. Harold may not have reported it right away. The news article is from 11/29/76 (attached) "Harold Babitzke. who lives five miles from town, said his daughter was startled by "a strange man" carrying a package under his arm on Lewis River Road, which runs past Ariel. "He looked like he didn't want a ride from anybody." Babitzke said. "I really think it was Cooper." I tracked down the apparent Harold Babitzke street address [not included for privacy] but position is: 45°59'34.57"N 122°31'48.42"W [Edit] Google Earth show some cleared fields in that area currently. It's very near the top drift line..right above Lake Merwin. The article mentions the FBI following this lead to a dead end but who knows. I guess not much you could do with it anyhow. Be interesting if Ckret can find anything about it in the files. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1980 June 3, 2008 1977 was a very good yr. Quote But Gossett did confess to at least two people, according to Cook. One is a retired Salt Lake City judge who was Gossett’s boss and close friend when he worked in the Salt Lake City public defender’s office. “Wolfgang and I were on very good terms,” the judge recalled in his interview with Galen Cook. “In 1977 he walked into my office and closed the door and said he thought he might be in some trouble, that he was involved in a hijacking in Portland and Seattle a few years ago and that he might have left prints behind. He said he was D.B. Cooper. I told him to keep his mouth shut and don’t do anything stupid, and not to bring it up again.” It was August of 1977 that I met Duane L. Weber. On March 28, 1978 we were married in Littleton, Co. with Paul and Phyllis Schnitzer in attendance.... In that same time period Duane had the terrible nightmare. I believe it was around the time of our wedding which had been delayed due to broken ribs from digging in the snow in a graveyard on our way to Co. from Ga. He was mumbling in his sleep. I started trying to talk to him but he was deep into this nightmare. He states frantically "I left my prints on the Aft Stairs" and then "I am going to die" With a blood curdling scream he wakes up with hand extended as if he is trying to hold on to something. I have written about this before and sorry to bore the forum, but I find it ODD that Cook puts Gossetts visit with the Judge in the same time frame. If Duane was truely worried about our marriage and his pulling me into something sinister - I believe he may have talked to someone about his fear. Repeat Quote from Judge: "said he thought he might be in some trouble, that he was involved in a hijacking in Portland and Seattle a few years ago and that he might have left prints behind." Could Gossett have went to the Judge for a friend? He does not say that he was the hijacker and could this not have been tongue in cheek to find out information for a friend? Because of this being in the same time frame - either Cook has fabricated this or the judge is being misquoted or it is a very strange ODD coincidence, that Cooks story and Duane's story go hand in hand.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1981 June 3, 2008 QuoteWhat was Duane's uncorrected vision in 71? You'd have to see pretty well to have any hope of making a good landing. The glasses issue doesn't rule Duane out 100%, but it raises some questions. Duane's vision in 1971 - I don't know , but in 1977 he did not wear his glasses for distance. In the 1980's I saw him fire a gun without his glasses and he pointed at a twigg and it was gone. I will check thru his things that I kept and see if there is an old prescription there or a pair of glasses from the last few yrs of his life, but I think I donated them to charity. I believe he was far sighted and he rarely wore glasses during the first few yrs we were together. He did not use them to drive at all until the last few yrs of his life.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #1982 June 3, 2008 Another thought... if the shoe existed, and was kept... I would think that no one would go out and buy a special pair of shoes, so... he would have spent many an hour walking and sweating in them. That said, I don't know if DNA can be extracted from shoes easily (perhaps the liner on the bottom). If the shoe is still laying around in an evidence box somewhere, a match to something on the tie would be something quite interesting. Ckret, is/was there such a shoe, or more fiction? edited to add: If it is A Shoe and not two shoes neatly placed together on the ground somewhere, it would support my theory of the 200mph prop wash knocking him for a very unstable exit and a solo shoe lost. A solo shoe lost on exit would place the exit point very closely with little movement because of wind. Shoes do not have a great glide path. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #1983 June 3, 2008 Sounds like Duane could see OK without glasses. I wear prescription goggles when I jump. I'd have a tough time landing off DZ without them, especially at night. The term "aft" in my experience is used mostly by people familiar with boats. It is used in aviation, but less so with "rear" being more common. Did Duane ever use nautical terms like fore, aft, port, starboard etc?2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1984 June 3, 2008 Quote Weber's prints were compared to those recovered from flight 305. There are no other prints to compare. If this is true why did you argue with me on the phone that day about the system. You said his prints where checked against those in the system...which would have been the last prints taken. The last prints taken I have explained over and over - where swapped out before they went into the system. You have to get the archived prints from the Washington DC archives. You yourself explained about the older prints being archived Washington DC. I explained that James Earl Ray changed his prints as did several others in Jefferson. but you blindly refuse to accept that the system was not infallible. You have produce nothing to inform me that you did check out ALL of his prints and not just those in the System. If you have done this I need verification of that. Strange that you made the off the hand remark about the prints on Gossett as though it was a new idea or thought. I have only been told that Duane's prints where checked against those in the Computer System - not the archived prints...you yourself said the archived prints were NOT done on the phone and that is why I was upset with you months ago. We don't know if any of the prints on the plane are Coopers and I am only going by the fear in his dream.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1985 June 3, 2008 QuoteI have been meaning to ask you this for months now, what information do you have that the DNA is compromised You read the forum don't you. It is here. You read the emails I sent to you months ago, didn't you? That tie was handled by several agents over the yrs without gloves and since the cigarette butts are LOST that means: DNA EVIDENCE I have to question the validity of DNA testing done to exclude individuals concerning the D. B. Cooper incident in 1971. In the past 36 years the evidence may have been compromised. Considering that the study of DNA did not exist until the late 1980’s, it is highly unlikely that the evidence was preserved in a manner that would have protected the DNA. I therefore, would question any DNA evidence that excluded anyone without further investigation in what items were used to extract DNA and VERIFICATION that the CHAIN OF CUSTODY was maintained throughout the last 36 yrs, when dealing with and handling this item. The only DNA evidence I consider valid would be the cigarette butts. BUT, the FBI can’t find them. There are too many questions unanswered. October 27, 2007 ALSO: In regards to the DNA taken from me for Duane L. Weber. This DNA was not requested until 2003 (eight yrs after Duane died). Then as per the report ACCIDENTALLY left in the box with the DNA when it was returned to me in March of 2007 (4 yrs later) the dates of the testing was in Late 2006 and early 2007. So those items are 12 yrs old and handled by many before it left my home - most had been cleaned and tried on and some I was not sure if Duane ever used, but I sent what I had except for two items I will not let out of my site...I know that the DNA on them would be mine and Duane's and I will allow swabs to be made of them in my presence. You asked and I have told you before - Most individuals in this forum knew the answer to that one. PS. If the Verification of Chain of Evidence had been kept the FBI would have those butts...and we would not have a DNA problem.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #1986 June 3, 2008 who provided you with and what information do you have that agents did not properly handle the evidence in this case with regard to collection and processing procedures. If the cigarette butts were destroyed it was done by an evidence custodian long after they were collected, processed at the lab and sent back to the division for storage. If they were destroyed it would have been a mistake but one made I am sure in good faith. The butts were processed, photographed and had given all they could with regard to the investigative techniques of the day. Why they wouldn't have continued to store them i don't know, but I am sure they thought, why keep them, the case is not activly being investigated and they are no longer of value. I'll answer my own question, you don't have any information that points to the collection procedures used by agents because nothing has ever been released or reported on the matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1987 June 3, 2008 Hi Jo, So if Duane didn't wear his glasses much for distance, you must have some photos of him without glasses post '71. Could you post one or two? It sounds like you have quite a collection, so just thinking probability, it should be easy to find one or two? thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1988 June 3, 2008 QuoteDNA - No - it is compromised and they need to have Duane's actual DNA. If they have CONCLUSIVE complete DNA then yes. FINGERPRINTS - Yes and No. Nothing is conclusive until they check the archived prints on Duane against what was left on the plane and the FBI file on Duane. Sorry but the answers are conditional on the factors involved. I don't think your answers are conditional at all!! What you are saying is that even if another suspect's DNA and fingerprints match, you still won't accept it!! What do you think, there were two people in the plane both wearing the tie AND handling the evidence retrieved from the plane?! In other words you simply won't accept anything that doesn't show it was Duane... For the sake of the rest of the debate and as it is an issue again under discussion by a few people, can you please post the PROOF that Duane changed his fingerprints. (rather than what seems to me to be hearsay that James Earl Ray changed his, I thought we had decided we weren't investigating the MLK assassination...)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1989 June 3, 2008 fwiw, I also think it is very clear that Agent Carr would like to solve the DB Cooper case. This makes me think that if he saw any value at all in chasing the Duane Weber link any further, he would. Considering the tone/invective Jo has used in many of her posts towards him, I also think he must be a man of considerable patience. Incidentally, Jo I notice all your (c) Jo Weber which makes me wonder - you remarried after Duane died, right? How come you kept Weber as your last name rather than changing it?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1990 June 3, 2008 from the shoe find story: Quote I spent a month or two in the the dead winter of 1971 looking for DB while I was stationed at Fort Lewis with the the Third Cav. The 3rd Armored Cavalry mentioned below in news articles could very likely be the 3rd Cav mentioned by the supposed shoe finder.. 3rd Cav is an armor division?, they were stationed at Fort Lewis. I'm trying to check out the other details in the posted "shoe found" story. Deployment details for the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Apparently they were at Fort Lewis in '71. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/3acr.htm "The Regiment remained in Germany until July 1968, when the Regiment redeployed to Fort Lewis, Washington...In 1972, the Regiment relocated to Fort Bliss, Texas" snippets from Google News Daily Times-News, The (Newspaper) - March 23, 1972, Burlington, North... ... Hijacker Goes Ou ..Helicopters of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Ft. Lewis, Wash. prepare to land after making a terrain ..." Apparently the search was for 6 weeks? Used 9 helicoptors and led by J. Earle Mimes. Sounds like it was maybe Feb/Mar '72. Maybe the "shoe find" author misremembered winter '71 vs early '72? Press-Telegram (Newspaper) - March 24, 1972, Long Beach, California "... and nine helicopters from Ft. Lewis and FBI agents led by J. Earle Mimes, director of the bureau's Seattle office... A search of the area was abandoned after several weeks. ..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1991 June 3, 2008 interesting stuff.. wonder what happened to the shoe. also interesting the poster reckoned it put him in the middle of the lake. old-timers: would the chances of injuring an ankle be high landing without shoes in rough terrain on a round...?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSky 2 #1992 June 3, 2008 Jo, have you ever herd the expression "you catch more flies with honey"? Here you have an agent asking you for info and you take the opportunity to bash the FBI. If it were me I would be as nice as I can to these people even if I thought they were a bunch of ass hats. It sure would be nice if you could produce some of your evidence at least for the main points of your story. The trip you took to the NW around the time the money was found. Can you produce some proof to put him in the area at that time? The letter you say you have form Duane to a friend saying he needs to lay low, can you produce that? How about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1993 June 3, 2008 QuoteHow about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack? The John Collins alias is one assertion that has had other back-up. Interestingly there is another thread that states that Duane was in prison under the John Collins alias at the time of the hijack, Jo disputes that hotly but also admits that Duane "disappeared" around that time and no-one knew where he was, so she can't actually prove that he wasn't in prison either.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1994 June 3, 2008 It always pays to reexamine all our evidence biases under different lights to see if it creates any new thoughts. 1) Assuming Cooper didn't tie everything to himself (briefcase, the training reserve), then he must have thrown that stuff out since it wasn't on the plane on landing. So anything "found" on the ground could have been just thrown out, and might not imply something else. 2) We've debated before whether Cooper might have had other shoes for jumping. If so, the "loafers" may have been tossed. I'm just throwing out ideas why a found shoe may not require a broken ankle. But it could. 3) We've got new info from Ckret that Cooper got the rig on, and tied up the money bag, while the plane was on the ground. I'm assuming that means Tina DID NOT see Cooper with the rest of the crap (training reserve/briefcase) tied to himself. If he's getting ready on the ground, wouldn't he get EVERYTHING tied up..because of the difficulties in tying while the plane is climbing and he's about to jump and dealing with the stairs. .... BUT: if a shoe was found, why wouldn't any of this other "stuff" have been found? I mean it would have been bigger stuff. And it's hard to believe Cooper tied it all to himself? So he's not going to be able to bury it on landing.. So I'm thinking stuff was tossed. If a shoe was found, I'm having a hard time understanding why other stuff wasn't found. [Edit] Maybe he tossed some stuff out very early..so it landed miles away from stuff like shoe..deep in woods and unfindable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #1995 June 3, 2008 I'll vouch for the Collins name for Jo, Weber used the following names: Duane Weber Duane L Weber Duane Lorin Weber Duane Larin Weber Duane Loren Weber John Collins John Chalk Collins John Claudin Collins John Claudian Collins He also used different dates of birth and Socials. Weber was arrested 26 times under the various names provided (arrests that were submitted to the FBI, there could have been more but for minor offenses) starting on 12/22/1942 and ending on 06/27/1976. All 26 arrest would have been processed by the sheriff's department were the arrest occurred or the United States Marshal Service (he committed a few federal crimes). One set of prints would have been maintained by the local arresting authority the other copy sent to the FBI. When the FBI receives the prints they create a "Master Set" of prints related to each person that prints are submitted for. If there are multiple sets for one person, the techs will use the best prints from each set to make one best Master Set. The odds that Weber was able to have someone on the inside of the FBI to alter this process is not a reality. Someone suggested comparing all prints taken from Weber (AKA) et al to those recovered from flight 305. All of the prints are at the FBI, or at least the 26 I referenced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1996 June 3, 2008 Quote Incidentally, Jo I notice all your (c) Jo Weber which makes me wonder - you remarried after Duane died, right? How come you kept Weber as your last name rather than changing it? As Jo Weber I have some privacy. When I went public My phone range off the hook and I was approached by one con after another. Yes, I remarried but I use Jo Weber when dealing with Cooper - this way I do not get the phone calls I was getting.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #1997 June 3, 2008 QuoteBUT: if a shoe was found, why wouldn't any of this other "stuff" have been found? snowmman, I find the shoe story as compelling as anything I have read lately, but, I would caution those who are assigning it to NORJAK without some other evidence linking it. A penny loafer found in a remote area is pretty strange in and of itself. So, I guess it’s natural (under the circumstances it was found) to want to make a logical link to NORJAK. I think, if that link was made at the time, we would have heard about it (from Ckret or someone else). As far as the issue of one shoe found and the other missing, as well as the briefcase, front chute, etc. I know from experience that the other shoe (regardless of how it got there) could be twenty yards away and never have been located. I have spent a lot of time looking for man-made objects in the wilderness, including many that have their own 0.511 MeV, 0.662 MeV, or 1.17 MeV radio beacons and if the other shoe landed under a bush, near the trunk, it may never be found. So, IMHO talk about broken ankles and such is premature. But, I sure would love to hear what happened to that shoe after it was found! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1998 June 3, 2008 QuoteSo anything "found" on the ground could have been just thrown out, and might not imply something else. 2) We've debated before whether Cooper might have other shoes for jumping. If so, the "loafers" may have been tossed.------ 3) We've got new info from Ckret that Cooper got the rig on, and tied up the money bag, while the plane was on the ground. I'm assuming that means Tina DID NOT see Cooper with the rest of the crap (training reserve/briefcase) tied to himself. But - if Tina saw Cooper with the rig already on -it is probably safe to assume that if he had changed any of his attire to get ready for jumping (like shoes) she would have noticed?? or noticed discarded items of clothing (that could be tossed later) lying around? Doesn't this argue against the "toss" theory? The problem would come in for those who think an experienced jumper is a more likely candidate, because one wouldn't have been dumb enough to jump with shoes. (So maybe Cooper hid the items away ready for tossing, or Tina just didn't notice, and that is probably more than enough rambling for one post.) ckret, do you know anything about this found loafer? and do you know what the history was of the co-operation between the FBI and this military unit that was searching?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1999 June 3, 2008 Quote How about some proof that he used John Collins as an alias and a statement from the hotel clerk that he had a John Collins staying at the hotel the night before the hijack? I did post that in the old thread. The Commentation of Sentence from Jefferson is in the name John C. Collins and that is in this thread. The FBI knows he lived and worked as John C. Collins from 1962 until 1968. The SS number and other things have been on line. He also worked for Pyramid Life Insurance as a leading agent for a couple of yrs under that name...and was an award winning agent. That company would not state anything other than they had purged their records for that time period. His wife only knew him as John C. Collins and used the name Collins. His stepchildren only knew him as John Collins and I have met a man who only knew him as John Collins. ----------------------------------------QuoteThe John Collins alias is one assertion that has had other back-up. Interestingly there is another thread that states that Duane was in prison under the John Collins alias at the time of the hijack, Jo disputes that hotly but also admits that Duane "disappeared" around that time and no-one knew where he was, so she can't actually prove that he wasn't in prison either. I do not remember where that information came from, but I am aware that someone stated that. But it is a fact that he WAS not in Prison or in Jail during those 3 months. The"disappearing" during that time was the exwife who said that she left him in Nov and that they did not get back together until Feb., but that story she changed during the last few yrs of her life and was disputed by other. She later changed her story - when talking about going to N.Y. to greet the 1972 New Yr. The purchase of 2 cars prior to Feb also disputed that. Statements made to me by two other individuals who knew Duane disputed that. His employer of the time - it was the Holidays and with insurance sales some agents do not work from Thanksgiving until a couple of wks into the New Yr. The employer did say that when asked about his injuries he stated that he got them trimming a tree in front of his house during the Holidays. The wife chuckled and said there was NO tree in their yard. Also during this 3 month time span was a "trip' to CA to San Franciso and to see his sister. A trip talked about by both Duane and the wife but without a time frame on it. Both of them talked about how she loved to ride the trolley cars - up and back, up and back. Mentioned in the same trip was the sister and Reno - and the stories about the slot machines. When he took me to Wa in 1979 when we left there we went to Tahoe and he said 'We aren't going to Reno" - He did not answer my question of "Why?" I believe that he was reliving that time in his mind - all of the places we went to in WA and then to a gambling area - all not too far from where his sister had lived in 1971 and from where the note to the Reno Newspaper was sent. A note with a penciled address on it which the FBI doesn't seem to want to bother retrive when that handwriting might be Duane"s. I will put it this way - if you had knowledge of a crime that might incriminate you, would you not keep your mouth shut? This was the mother of 5 kids with 2 still at home. I cannot divulge the full extent of the conversations she and I shared - for one thing it would be more of she said and she said. Haven't we had enough of that? What I can prove - I cannot use.......no one would believe it anyway. The things that the FBI could do they do not do. Does anyone think I enjoy living this limbo life and be ridculed - If you knew me you would know that is not how I wanted to live my life, but I CHOSE to fight for the truth and the proof. I do NOT understand how difficult it would be to retrieve that envelope, check the prints the proper way and verify the DNA. All CARR does is come back and ask the same questions of me over and over - When he can study the history of the computer Print System - WHY ask me to provide the proof. All I can provide are articles stating what Ray did and that it was well known that this print change did happen in that era - I don't know that Duane managed to do it - but the FBI should be willing to prove to the general population that it didn't happen.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSky 2 #2000 June 3, 2008 Ok so we know he was John Collins. So how can we get a statement from the hotel clerk?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
