DB Cooper

[happythoughts 0]

Last weekend, we were playing with a 7-ft beanbag-type, bright yellow banana out. We dropped it at 5K, about a mile from the airport, over a forested area.

The next day, I circled over the area in a Cessna and looked for it. Impossible to see through the tree cover. We didn't find it and it was 7ft long and bright yellow, so ground search is the only effective way.

An earlier post mentioned a ground search by a person in the military. He said that he covered the original suspected landing area. Two months is a lot of searching.

How far from the original landing area is the new projected one?
Would the military search party have covered it?

At some point, even if the landing area is re-identified with reasonable certainty, there would have to be a ground search. I don't see that happening for a theorized site.

[Guru312 0]

Quote

Ckret
...

Long term, on the ground, no matter how it was tied with rope, the rope would eventually loosen and money could dribble out. Or maybe the bag would decompose before that. Hard to tell which would happen first.

But:

Although the money is a flexible material, it's also possible that the money bag exploded on impact.
(edit) maybe not a full explosion..tear, etc.
I've seen heavy nylon bags drop 3000 ft and explode.
...

People with experience doing air drops might be able to chime in here, about whether a bag with money would survive as a bag once it hits the ground in freefall.

Finally!! You guys have come around to my perspective on this issue.

As I've written previously, I spoke with the owner of the bag company who probably manufactured the bag. He couldn't find invoices back further than the late 1970s although he did find invoices from Seattle First bank.

You write, above, using the word "rope" which is technically incorrect because Cooper tied the bag with nylon suspension line. Prior posts referring to information provided by our agent-in-residence indicate that Cooper cut two lengths of cord about 15' long.

Nylon suspension line of this type "probably" has a breaking strength of 550 pounds. Plus, nylon is very long lasting in its strength...unless subjected to long-term sunlight.

It is my speculation that Cooper used all of one length of cord to tie the bag. Depending upon the exact measurements of the bag and money, he could rather easily create a very secure bundle which would totally contain the money--even without rigger skills and knot tying ability--which could survive a terminal impact. This being because of the tensile strength of the cord and the "giving" nature of the money within the bag.

It is my further speculation that Cooper used the other length of cord to tie the bag to himself and the harness.

The act of *securely* tying a 20+ pound bag of bulky canvas to himself without help is damned near impossible. I can't imagine how he would begin to tie the bag to the harness. A *real* pain the ass to do...let alone do well enough that the "package" would survive the exit into the 200mph wind.

Given that Cooper was even attempting this ridiculous caper, I'm of the opinion that he was not a jumper, rigger or person knowing much about jumping. I've done some really crazy shit in my life but I wouldn't consider doing what he did in the way he did it.

The difficulty of tying the bag to himself would mean the money bag would be very loose. The shape, placement of the bag and poor tie job is a recipe for losing it either upon exit in the turbulence or upon opening. If he opened, which I don't believe he did.

My speculation is the fully tied bag survived the exit, fall and impact. It somehow found its way into a tributary of the water at Tena Bar.

From my discussion with the bag manufacturer he speculated that the bag could remain in water for years before finally beginning to disintegrate. Disintegration of the canvas bag would occur long before the nylon suspension line would disintegrate.

By the way, I am still not DB Cooper.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Albert18 0]

I don't know the exact boundaries of the searched area but this new suspected jump area isn't even close to where they were looking in the 70's. Ckret, do the files show Himmelsbach's exact comment when he was told part of the money was found that far south? I hope he was sitting down.

It seems to me in this new jump site if he landed on land he almost certainly lived unless someone has been mowing around his body for over 30 years.

So he either walked out without the money or he landed in water or a swampy area.

With this guy Cook suspects, I don't see how you lose part of the money. Seems to be an all or none situation. If I remember right, Cook is keeping that info for the book.

[snowmman 3]

good insight on the bag + rope tying guru312

We could even do this experiment on the ground with jumpers. I'm not even sure jumpers who know what they'll be hit with could do a good job (edit) based on what you've just said.

Give 10 people the same stuff, tell them to tie it on, then go around and try to whack it off them with a baseball bat, pinata style. Probably get a bunch of them loose with just one whack.

And if you don't like one of them, just swing low, and claim "Sorry, Science you know!" :)

Edit: But now it begs the question: so you're thinking the bag wouldn't stay on, but would stay secure enough to not explode on impact? Any personal experiences with bags of stuff hitting soft ground at terminal? What kind of speed would the bag have anyhow? similar to human body?

[Ckret 0]

The new search area is maybe 20 miles "as the plane flies" from the original location and by now is covered with houses. What was it like in 1971? once we have the area narrowed down that wont be difficult to show by using records from the clerks office. If it was still heavily wooded and Cooper died he would have been consumed.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Any personal experiences with bags of stuff hitting soft ground at terminal? What kind of speed would the bag have anyhow? similar to human body?

Weighing 20lb? Nowhere close to a human. Certainly not a feather though.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

Here's the scoop on the Cook suspect, for many reasons it can't be him but this one seals it for me:

The story Cook is telling is that Gossett said he jumped into Oregon not Washington. Gossett claimed he thumped the sides of the aircraft over the Vancouver area to fool the crew and jumped much later. Anytime someone jumps from the stairs in an unlocked state it creates a pressure wave. There was only one pressure wave and it was while near the Vancouver area not past Portland.

The money find is explained as planting it to throw off the investigation. There is no logical connection to planting the money at Tenas Bar to throw off the investigation. The year is off as well, the plant apparently occurred prior to 1974.

There's more but that's enough for me.

[snowmman 3]

Even though I didn't want to accept the money in the Columbia, it seems like I'm forced to.

chain of thought:
1) Feels like I have to accept guru312's "money bag doesn't stay with Cooper'.

2) Given the flight path (consult Sluggo's last posts for jpgs), there's no way for alternative hydrology (see some of my "what we need" jpg theories) to work, if the money bag is in free fall without canopy drift. And if the money bag is lost due to forces, then it has to be before canopy open.

3) So money bag has zero drift.

4) So the money bag had to end up in the Columbia, not the alternative idea of Vancouver Lake then to Tena Bar.

5) And it had to be close to where the flight path crosses the Columbia? (maybe not)

By predicting the freefall money bag then, we can actually refine the Cooper jump point pretty exactly, and then draw Cooper's drift line assuming he got chute deployment.

I'm following some thin threads here, and you probably have to reread to see if I'm talking thru my hat, but I'd like to hear if there is any alternative thinking?

Doesn't going in reverse from money to Cooper's jump point work now. So we can actually predict Cooper's landing site pretty precisely with a canopy drift line?

Or: Do we have to accept some alternative hydrology, where it travels in some water channel before it hits the Columbia. Doesn't that lower the likelihood of travelling as an intact bag to Tena Bar? (damage?)

In the Columbia straight off the bat seems the more likely scenario to me?

[snowmman 3]

Man we have evidence all around us and I keep forgetting it.

The farmer found the McNally money bag. He didn't find money all around his fields.

The McNally bag was a airline mail courier bag or something like that? I think? probably similar tensile/burst strength to the Cooper canvas bag...or close enough.

So we have our experiment. Very close in altitude, and higher exit speed?

And the bag didn't burst.
It wasn't tied with rope, probably zipper. But it's good data.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Last weekend, we were playing with a 7-ft beanbag-type, bright yellow banana out. We dropped it at 5K, about a mile from the airport, over a forested area.

The next day, I circled over the area in a Cessna and looked for it. Impossible to see through the tree cover. We didn't find it and it was 7ft long and bright yellow, so ground search is the only effective way.

Well, it's likely that by the time it hit the ground the air inside it would have contracted enough that it would just about lay flat or balled up small enough.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[BigSky 2]

In the Columbia straight off the bat seems the more likely scenario to me?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

3) So money bag has zero drift.

Not zero drift. Yes, a lot less than if under canopy all the way, but certainly not zero - even skydivers drift in freefall. How far depends on the winds.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

Bigsky,

Your right, way to keep them straight. The money did not arrive at Tenas Bar prior to 1974, and probably not until the earliest of late 78. It also had to arrive still in the bag. According to everything we are putting together he did not jump over Vancouver, north of Vancouver.

[snowmman 3]

(I may be just seeing nothing here, but thought I'd throw it out)

referencing the new hi-res pdx flight path map
http://www.n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg

if you zoom in, you can see faint red "+" pencil? marks behind the black flight path as you go from SEA to PDX

There are also 3, maybe 4 of these red "+" marks just NW of Portland.

They seem handdrawn to me. They're not anywhere else except under the flightpath and just NW of Portland.

Ckret: any idea what these red "+"'s mean, near Portland?

As I follow the flight path up N towards SEA, some of the tic marks are off the flight path, as if the flight path was approximated with a straight line. Some have the time with an arrow, pointing to them. Which makes me think they are radar time+location marks?

Could the ticks be a logged radar position from that night?

What would the ticks near Portland be then?

They are drawn heavier. Maybe something else?
(edit) They almost look like predicted landing sites

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Last weekend, we were playing with a 7-ft beanbag-type, bright yellow banana out. We dropped it at 5K, about a mile from the airport, over a forested area.

The next day, I circled over the area in a Cessna and looked for it. Impossible to see through the tree cover. We didn't find it and it was 7ft long and bright yellow, so ground search is the only effective way.

Well, it's likely that by the time it hit the ground the air inside it would have contracted enough that it would just about lay flat or balled up small enough.

picture

No captured air inside (like an inflatable pool toy).
This was a cloth type material and filled like a beanbag chair. It did not expand/contract on the ride up/down.

This thing weighed 30+ lbs, yet when it hit, it did not explode. It had been used many times before.
Someone told me over 10 times.

Therefore, a canvas bag with 20 lbs in it would probably land without damage.

[BigSky 2]

Quote

Bigsky,

Your right, way to keep them straight. The money did not arrive at Tenas Bar prior to 1974, and probably not until the earliest of late 78. It also had to arrive still in the bag. According to everything we are putting together he did not jump over Vancouver, north of Vancouver.

Well if I'm reading Slugos map right the new jump area is actually north east of Vancouver city center. North of PDX up the 205 corridor.

That area today is all mostly houses and fields. I’m sure we could get a picture of it in 71 but id bet back then it is mostly fields.

Jo said Duane took her into the woods somewhere and he said "that is where Cooper walked out of the woods" Well if the new jump area is correct then he never walked out of the woods because the area isn’t wooded.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[snowmman 3]

This is sad, just happened a couple weeks back. thought i'd post it for info when thinking about splash theories.

Might have jumped off the 205 bridge into the Columbia? Body was discovered by fisherman up by Kalama, which is North of where the Lewis River enters the Columbia.

I guess it's a possible example of what might happen with human body into the columbia at the 205 bridge area? unclear.


http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/2008/05/05292008_Body-found-in-river-identified.cfm

Body found in river identified

Thursday, May 29, 2008
By JUSTIN CARINCI and JOHN BRANTON, Columbian staff writers

A body found May 18 in the Columbia River near Kalama has been identified as Camille Ann McCarthy, 49, of Vancouver, according to a Cowlitz County sheriff’s bulletin released Wednesday.

McCarthy was last seen May 17. Her 1989 Plymouth Voyager minivan was found unoccupied, facing south, on the Interstate 205 Bridge on May 21. There were no signs of foul play.

The body was found about one mile north of Martin’s Island, south of Kalama. A dive team recovered the body after it was discovered by a fisherman, and it was identified as McCarthy by the Cowlitz County Coroner’s Office.

The cause and manner of McCarthy’s death remain under investigation. Anyone who saw McCarthy or her minivan between May 17 and 21 is asked to call Detective Joe Reiss at 360-577-3079.

[quade 4]

Quote

3) So money bag has zero drift.

Are you using that term to mean no drift in the river or no drift in the air?

Assume the uppers were averaging about 20 mph and the bag falls at 90mph (not quite as fast a a normal human in freefall, but still pretty fast).

Obviously these numbers are just for the purposes of illustration.

90 mph = 132 feet per second
20 mph = 29.333... feet per second
Assume an exit and loss of the bag at 10,000 ft.
That's 75 seconds in the air for 2200 feet worth of drift in the air.

The bag would absolutely not have fallen straight down from the airplane or when it separated from Cooper unless it did so on the ground itself.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo has mentioned that he didn't think 205 was there in 1971
The 205 bridge was apparently just completed in 1982
picture from here attached (long description there)

(edit) from the curve of the bridge and the islands underneath, and comparison to current Google Earth. I think this photo is looking at the Vancouver side, so gives us a feel for what it looked like in 1982?

https://www.columbian.com/history/transportation/205bridge.cfm

[snowmman 3]

Hi quade.
Thanks for real numbers.
Yeah, I just offhand said "zero" cause I just didn't know...wasn't thinking.
I was thinking kind of "well it's not going to get to Vancouver Lake like one theory might want"...and I shortened that thought to "zero drift"

your number sounds good.

Quote

Quote

3) So money bag has zero drift.

Are you using that term to mean no drift in the river or no drift in the air?

Assume the uppers were averaging about 20 mph and the bag falls at 90mph (not quite as fast a a normal human in freefall, but still pretty fast).

Obviously these numbers are just for the purposes of illustration.

90 mph = 132 feet per second
20 mph = 29.333... feet per second
Assume an exit and loss of the bag at 10,000 ft.
That's 75 seconds in the air for 2200 feet worth of drift in the air.

The bag would absolutely not have fallen straight down from the airplane or when it separated from Cooper unless it did so on the ground itself.

[snowmman 3]

Random guess, using what Quade said, with jump point being right near the Columbia so money bag with 2500 ft or so of travel along the flight path ends in the Columbia (or on its shore) at the flight path crossing river point.

I don't know what to use for canopy drift. I put ~3 mi here but probably wrong?

requires about 7 miles of extra plane travel past 2015 on the flight path..which would be at least 2 more minutes?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Okay Jr. FBI Agents,

Uncle Sluggo has a test for you to see how sharp your (investigator) eyes are.

This map (attached) is a plot of those little red tic-marks that snowmman was asking about. The red pins have times written next to them and the blue ones are just tic-marks with no times. So for the blue ones the time was based on the average length between the red ones and hence marked EST for ESTIMATED.

But, low and behold, there is something wrong with them. See if you can spot it.

I printed it on a blank background so you wouldn’t have eye distractions. If you think it will help, follow along with the Hi-res maps that Ckret released yesterday.

First one to tell me what’s amiss, gets a free vacation trip, for them and their family to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for the filming of a new reality TV show called; “Guantanamo Baywatch”.

Sluggo

Clarification: For the blue pins, the position is where the tick marks are. The time is assumed (estimated) to be 1 min intervals, because the red ones are.

I uploaded an updated map with the 19:55 PST Pin the correct color (red).

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[n467us 0]

Ckret:

This has probably been covered before... but:

(1) Did the FBI cross check missing persons reports from the late '71-'72 timeframe (nationwide)?

(2) Has there been any bodies found in/around the Columbia River since '71?

Thanks...

[snowmman 3]

someone stole all the red tics from 20:12 to 20:18?
there are none?

(edit) so the critical flight path area was all estimated?
whereas the other areas were more precisely measured?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

There are red ticks, but because they don't have times by them they are blue pins.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum