DB Cooper

[hangdiver 1]

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1) If you were going to request an altitude to jump from a 727-51, what altitude would that be? Put any number here, no constraints, but please list any rationale for your response (safety, it gives me time to get stable, it gets me to the ground more quickly, etc)

2) Would you express that altitude as MSL or AGL? Again, any number, but state rationale.

3) Would you plan for freefall and if so how long? Time? Distance? Both? Just express it clearly for this whuffo… no, WHUFFO.

Now quit being Cooper.

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

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Sorry, in the middle of my post I accidentally closed my browser while doing some research and lost it.
Here goes again. Me as Cooper.

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1. 6,000', If I know where I am. High enough for the aircraft to not be conspicuous, low enough to spot. High enough to get stable after decelerating from the higher than normal forward speed at exit, approximately 5 to 7 seconds after exit. Check and adjust money bag if not stable(belly to earth). If I can't get stable I'll deploy now. No need to go to much past terminal velocity in a state of instability, a large probability with a bag flapping around on my chest. That puts me about 13 to 15 seconds from exit, about 4,000'. That's high enough so my parachute opening won't sound to loud on the ground and gives me about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes under canopy at a descent rate of 22' per second.
2. 6,000 AGL. AGL is what I'm concerned about.
3. I think I answered that in #1.
4. No. Looking at my log book from the 80's 10,000 was a common altitude for C-182's. The twin engine aircraft jumps were from 10,500 to 12,000. I would be more likely want to be lower than 10,000 so I could see where I was and reduce the drift factor under canopy. If I couldn't see the ground because of clouds, I would request an altitude change. IMO Cooper never gave any clues he was a skydiver, think about his shoes. Unless he had a pair of jump boots in his bag and put them on, he was probably limping if he lived.

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The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.

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"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

nitrochute,

Thank you, now I’m beginning to see the reason for the statement. Now, what would motivate the rigger/DZ owner to pack a 28’ canopy in a container for a 26‘? Cost control because that’s what was laying around? Garage sale on the container and chute (hey, even if they don’t match, I can make them work)? See what I’m asking?

Thanks,
Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo

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[377 22]

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"back in the day "NOBODY cared about pull forces at least to the paranoid extremes of today. not many rigger used a fish scale to check the pull force either. if you could close it,it was used.i was actually the victim of this mentality on my first jump in 1970. the reserve parchute that i wore on my first jump could not be pulled even w/2 people trying. (i had a malfuntion on my main parachute , but luckily i was able to clear it and get it open.)since the chute cooper used was a pilot emergency chute , it would only have been deployed on the packing table to repack it every 60 days .it wasnt like a main parachute that gets deployed in freefall and then gets repacked. so yes it is absolutely possible to have such a rig laying around. most pilots would not use a parchute even if available to them unless say the wings fell off the airplane.

I'd have to echo Nitro here. Back in the late 60s I was given a surplus main rig that had a REALLY hard pull (unextended container and a sleeved C9). I complained after fighting really really hard to pull it before I went to my reserve. I did get it pulled but it was HARD. The rigger's reaction was: "maybe you need to work out more." as he put it back on the rental rack.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Guru312 0]

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"back in the day "
...
so yes it is absolutely possible to have such a rig laying around. most pilots would not use a parchute even if available to them unless say the wings fell off the airplane.

I'd say Nitro is correct for pilots who aren't jumpers. Depending upon the type of emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to jump. I think most non-jumping pilots would rather not.

I mentioned a month or more ago that the rig I wore when flying jumpers was a 28ft canopy in a NB-6 container. I knew the pull would be hard if I had to use it; I packed it. The number of crazy things that can go wrong on jump run are many. Maybe my reasoning was flawed back then but I wanted a rig that some crazed student couldn't pull easily by mistake. [My guess is that's Cossey's DZ had a rig like that for the same reason.]

I had a number of situations where students got out of the plane, onto the step, and then decided that they'd rather not jump. Getting a student in that state of mind--very terrified--back into the plane safely wasn't fun for the J/M, for me or anyone else in the plane.

If Cooper wasn't a jumper, as I don't think he was, he probably knew very little about the importance of cinching down- very tightly --the leg and chest straps. Given that I believe he couldn't effectively secure "the package" to himself single-handedly, he probably left the plane with the harness way too loose and 20 pounds of money beating the living crap out him as he was tossed around violently by the wind on exit.

Imagine getting hit in the face with 20 pounds of money which hit you because of that 200 mph of wind. It wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that he got knocked out the money bag...before it took it's own path to the ground.

Every time I post to this thread I keep asking myself, "Why am I bothering to hash all this over and over? Don't I have a life?"

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Every time I post to this thread I keep asking myself, "Why am I bothering to hash all this over and over? Don't I have a life?"

No, you don’t have a life…. In fact you are dead…. And you are in “Skydivers Hell” where you have to answer Whuffo’s questions all … day … long…

For eternity.

Sluggo

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[377 22]

No, you don’t have a life…. In fact you are dead…. And you are in “Skydivers Hell” where you have to answer Whuffo’s questions all … day … long…

For eternity.

Sluggo

[377 22]

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snowmman,

Your last post made me think about some training I had one time.

Go HERE

Sluggo

EDIT: This is why I entered the field of "Instructional Technology". So I could design Training Materials for Guv'ment Agencies.

Since I started getting on the internet forums (or is the plural of “forum” “Fora”) I have been surprised, shocked, I’ve gotten my feelings hurt. I’ve been made to feel proud. I’ve felt like an outsider. I’ve wondered why certain people have said certain things. I have gotten discouraged and I have been encouraged.

But, I have never been so disappointed as I am that only one person commented on my AF Guidance lecture that I posted last night.

I’ve thought it over, and the only answer I have, is that nobody on this board has as many GPS receivers as I do, and has spent as much time as I have trying to understand the position algorithms that Garmin uses.

Sluggo

A man with a GPSr always knows EXACTLY where he is. A man with two GPSrs is NEVER really sure.

Sluggo,

Did the govt pay more for the missile guidance error deviation variation teaching aid than they did for those aircraft toilet seats?

"I dont know where I'm goin but I know where I've been" Sitting in limbo, by Jimmy Cliff.

Two GPSs is a terrible idea. You need three and a voting solution.

I am an altimeter collector and never jump with less than two and often have 3. I get laughed at. One guy said if they read different, which one do you trust?

Easy: the one with the lowest reading.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JSBIRD 1]

In case some live tests need to be completed...

http://www.gadling.com/2008/06/11/now-where-did-my-jumbo-jet-go-there-it-is/?icid=200100397x1203923435x1200159889

...here's one you might get with some convincing paperwork.

359

"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

[skyjack71 0]

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For Cooper to have gone into the Columbia 305 would have had to cross the Columbia. This, according to the flight crew didn't happen, they felt Cooper jumped before this point.

Exactly and this has been stated before and you are coming full circle. Dead on. Only one person fits all of the criteria - Duane Weber.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

The plane would NOT be pressurized - no oxygen needed and the door would open easier and at 10,000 there are certain things you can see - even with a cloud cover. There are things that can be done at 10,000 that will let the jumper know where he is without expensive or heavy equipment.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports. I asked Cossey why he packed a 28 foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, "it was my chute, I did it because I can." I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour.

[georger 247]

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His original request was for below 10,000 ft.

What does this say from a skydiver's point of view?
Couldnt make up his mind? Wasn't a skydiver?
Mispoke?

Where did you get this tid-bit?

Sluggo

T8 6:59-7:41 transcript. "He said we'll have to go below 10,000". This follows the statement about
going unpressurised .... these passages follow the
bit about the FAA psychiatrist.

Also at 7:27 of T1 "will be unpressurised and he has said must stay below (unintel = 10oooft) will go (unintel) would suggest go via the coast then back on
route..."

[georger 247]

In fact, the lack of precision, the willingness or desire to grab at an answer that might be "close enough", I think is what has always doomed this investigation. Just because you see a possible grab handle doesn't mean it's the right one.

[georger 247]

These profiles are very nice.

[georger 247]

I believe this is the normal inertia concept (the same reason your body keeps moving forward if the car slams on brakes). There's a cute little freefall sim on Kallend's website which you might like to look at - just plug in some numbers for windspeed and look at the trajectory: http://lensmoor.org/cgi-bin/chute.cgi (btw the reason the forward throw is the opposite direction to the drift is because planes usually drop jumpers flying into the wind)

I don't believe I've seen anything about him originally requesting below 10K, but it could make sense either from a cloud cover perspective, or from a spotting perspective - IF he had a particular position in mind, the lower you go out the less you are affected (either in freefall or under canopy) by wind drift from the uppers. Ckret of course is of the opinion he didn't know where he was going to jumo anyway, so this would be a moot point.

Ckret, on another tack, was Mayfield ever formally identified as a suspect? Were his prints ever compared? He has a criminal record so presumably you (FBI) have them on file.

[georger 247]

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you guys are being way to analytical, replace "felt" with "it was their belief" that Cooper jumped.

okay, if we just run with that, then you're asking us to find a jump point that has the money bag coming off and landing in the Columbia, or some bit of land that might get flooded or a stream...I'm thinking stream is unlikely because of small size...probability/likelihood of any particular money landing site is probably correlated to it's area..stream area is small..columbia is big...banks of columbia are big.

And this landing site for the money has to be within 1/2 mile of the flight path, probably less, depending on how you vector the money relative to the plane's path.

And this jump point has to be before the Columbia.

So given this difficult set of conditions, you think it's somehow obsessive to focus on the data requirement that's forcing us to have a jump point before the Columbia.

Now I'm scratching my head because I feel this vibe of how "hey we don't need to be so analytical" when all the requirements for the equation seem to demand a lot of precision on everything we talk about.

In fact, the lack of precision, the willingness or desire to grab at an answer that might be "close enough", I think is what has always doomed this investigation. Just because you see a possible grab handle doesn't mean it's the right one.

Snowmman,

What I need you to do right now, ok!!! is to slowly show me your hands, right now, ok? I need you step away from the keyboard with your hands up, Ok? right now.

Breath brother, too analytical about the word "felt" not the case. Everyone needs a day off, I shall grant you two. Now go outside and run around a bit, the blue stuff when you look up is called sky and the green stuff at your feet we call grass

Funny! (Does your wife look over your shoulder and
read this stuff and laugh?)

[georger 247]

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in response to Ckret's post:
I was watching Cops one night and listening to the "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" song, and thinking about Ckret and this forum, and all my MP3's lovingly acquired over 9 years, including everything Lou Reed has ever done.

And I went and deleted/destroyed them all. Damn, and you say I'm not doing my part here!

We all get roses for this in the Happy Hunting Ground,
or a kick in the ass. ???javascript: addTag('pirate')
javascript: addTag('pirate')

[georger 247]

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so me and guru have some knowledge of the type of parachutes that ol coop used,and we been talking...
the nb 6/nb8 harness has a floating main lift web.it runs through an adaptor at the shoulder and becomes the riser that the canopy is attached to.(picture the old ww2 harnesses,the ones w/o capewell canopy releases)if ol coop tied the bag/sack of money to himself it most likely would involve the main lift web.even if it was tight/secure it would flop around possibly blocking his access to the ripcord handle or possibly even smackin the boy upside the head and knocking him out. i hate to stay fixated on the parachute issue, but i think it would be helpfull to determine if he even was able to deploy the parachute(and lets not forget the pack was designed for a much less bulky 26 ft canopy but had a bulkier 28 foot canopy in it which would result in a very hard/ impossible pull.) so if we couple all these things , it seems extremely unlikely that the boy would have survived the jump. methinks he was a lawn dart ......but just my 2 cents worth

Even if he tied the money around his waste? Or are you saying 'especially' if he tied the money around
his waste? have you got a photo of this arrangement?

[georger 247]

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The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.

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__________________________________________

HARD PULL QUESTION: Lets assume hard pull with
nb6 and 28ft canopy, and his money bag tied around
his waste. 377 has said below this is a very hard pull.
Another has said bag around his waste might interfere
with finding the rip cord at all.

From 10000 ft Im assuming roughly 60-90 seconds
of free fall with no chute deployed.

Let's assume hard pull and interference from the bag.
Is it reasonable to assume you would try and shift
the bag or even try and get rid of the bag or dump
its contents simply trying to get his chute open.

What options do you see here?

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[skyjumpsteve 0]

Anyone in on the auction today for the Cooper cash? The 5 bills that are in the best shape (there are about 15 all together but some are just tiny little pieces) are currently in the range of $2,800 to $5,500. These bids are from internet bidding which closed last night. The live auction is happening in a couple of hours. I was hoping to grab one of them but the prices undoubtedly will rise when the live auction starts so I may have to pull the cord and drop out.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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T8 6:59-7:41 transcript. "He said we'll have to go below 10,000". This follows the statement about going unpressurised .... these passages follow the bit about the FAA psychiatrist.

Also at 7:27 of T1 "will be unpressurised and he has said must stay below (unintel = 10oooft) will go (unintel) would suggest go via the coast then back on
route..."

Okay, I see what you are saying. I sorta disagree with your interpretation, but that's just my opinion.

Pilots have a saying: "There is nothing as usless as the altitude below you, the fuel in the truck, or that airspeed behind you." Also: "Altitude is your friend."

To me, if you say stay below 10,000 feet, I'm gonna fly at 10,000. I chected the Boeing docs and the O2 deploys at 14,000 ft cabin pressure, so that wasn't a factor.

So, again, just my opinion.

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Ok. Just for the heck of it I took Sluggo's missing minute
map from last evening and put the relevant flight comms
on it. Not sure what this proves it gives some context..
attached below:

Was there supposed to be an attachment?

Sluggo

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[nitrochute 2]

"tied around his waist".....only if he tied the money to himself BEFORE putting the chute on. it would have been extremely difficult and time consuming to tie it around his waste,by himself, with the parachute already on.(thats why i am thinking he tied it to the harness/main liftweb)

as to your question about the hard pull/ interference from the money bag, at most coop would have had about 51-52 seconds to work with (in skydiving at that time a 45 second delay would be made from 10000 ft with deployment at 2500 feet above ground level)unless he carried a knife out the door with him it would have been very difficult to alleviate the problem by cutting the bag loose

[ltdiver 3]

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his money bag tied around
his waste. 377 has said below this is a very hard pull.
Another has said bag around his waste might interfere
with finding the rip cord at all.

Thanks for the laugh this morning. Cooper would indeed find it hard to find and pull with the bag around waste. Perhaps that's why he was in the bathroom so long....

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon