skyjack71 0 #2701 June 17, 2008 Quote His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right. Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out. My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it. OK...what's next? Maybe Cossey knew Cooper was left handed????? There was a man who claimed the boots where packed in the dummy, but the FBI did not consider the source reliable nor did I.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #2702 June 17, 2008 Quote Is it true paratroopers in WWII used to tie msc stuff around their wastes waists, in front? Rain gear etc? Maybe Cooper was acting out of this experience, or he had seen it in the movies? George My sister found one of these last year. I can't imagine anyone arriving back down to earth injury free with A WWII BSA Paratrooper Bicycle strapped to them...but they did! "Allied use of the bicycle in World War II was limited, but included supplying folding bicycles to paratroopers and to messengers behind friendly lines. The successful British raid on a German radar installation at Ste. Bruneval, France in 1942 was conducted by airborne cycle-commandos with the aid of such folding bikes." Picture of a paratrooper standing at the door, ready to lauch with his folded bike attached: http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/BSA_position_jump_from_Dakota.jpg From this web page: http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/new_page_1.htm Video of the bike frame here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qradWhEnwhk Amazing. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #2703 June 17, 2008 QuoteThere was a man who claimed the boots where packed in the dummy Ok... that really doesn't make any sense at all. There was a man who claimed the boots were packed in the dummy reserve Are you trying to say that there were (may have been) boots inside the training reserve?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #2704 June 17, 2008 QuoteREPLY: Just a personal observation: Your work will stand no matter what. You are so far ahead of the rest of the pack, with the integrity to match, nobody can compete. So you should not feel you need to compete because nobody can. There are some very good minds gathered here with solid credentials in many areas, and everyone respects you thoroughly. Relax! George You are sooo “unbelievably” kind. I’ll do that… I’ll relax. Now, what was it you do (for a living) again. Or, have you never stated your profession? Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #2705 June 17, 2008 Quote Quote Another Booth's Law: ***No matter how hard you try, you cannot baptize a cat...or throw it out of an airplane. Not without declawing the poor bastard! That said, some Russian took his cat out in a special harness with booties on all four paws. It's posted in the GSD forum. Okay, thread hijack over."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #2706 June 17, 2008 What Georger said about Sluggo, right on. Same kudos for Snowman and many others. Amen. 307 377 707 727... 777: aluminum evolution.2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #2707 June 17, 2008 Just for the record I don't believe, nor ever believed, Cooper landed in or near the Columbia. I have never come close to forwarding that idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #2708 June 18, 2008 Ckret, On page 185 of the transcripts [Re-recording Reel #5, 6:59 PM to 7:41 PM PST] at the bottom of the page we have: (P) About the (unitel) I gave to you a little while ago it is a possibility that this is the same thing that was used in {A space that didn’t copy is here} There is no To Page 186 (P) confirmation on it. (GC) I see Do you have a better copy that shows the missing type? I am assuming this is in reference to the statement made by the pilot at the bottom of page 184, when they were discussing Cooper’s knowledge of aircraft. It seems to be the only thing that fits. Possibly a reference to experience dropping loads (NO….! don’t EVEN go there!) in SE Asia. (Notice I didn’t say; “Viet Nam”) Let us know if you can clarify the statement. Thanx, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 247 #2709 June 18, 2008 Quotegeorger, I'm supposed to respond to that babble? Sluggo_Monster I have wondered the same about yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2710 June 18, 2008 QuoteQuotegeorger, I'm supposed to respond to that babble? Sluggo_Monster I have wondered the same about yours. Let's all simmer down now.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 247 #2711 June 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteREPLY: Just a personal observation: Your work will stand no matter what. You are so far ahead of the rest of the pack, with the integrity to match, nobody can compete. So you should not feel you need to compete because nobody can. There are some very good minds gathered here with solid credentials in many areas, and everyone respects you thoroughly. Relax! George You are sooo “unbelievably” kind. I’ll do that… I’ll relax. Now, what was it you do (for a living) again. Or, have you never stated your profession? Sluggo_Monster My God you are rude! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #2712 June 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuotegeorger, I'm supposed to respond to that babble? Sluggo_Monster I have wondered the same about yours. Let's all simmer down now. Point Taken. Thanks, Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #2713 June 18, 2008 Quote...The cat may have survived the opening shock or not. The briefcase holding the cat may have broken loose and the cat fell to its death inside, or perhaps lived. What is the average float time of a dead cat? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 247 #2714 June 18, 2008 QuoteCkret, On page 185 of the transcripts [Re-recording Reel #5, 6:59 PM to 7:41 PM PST] at the bottom of the page we have: (P) About the (unitel) I gave to you a little while ago it is a possibility that this is the same thing that was used in {A space that didn’t copy is here} There is no To Page 186 (P) confirmation on it. (GC) I see Do you have a better copy that shows the missing type? I am assuming this is in reference to the statement made by the pilot at the bottom of page 184, when they were discussing Cooper’s knowledge of aircraft. It seems to be the only thing that fits. Possibly a reference to experience dropping loads (NO….! don’t EVEN go there!) in SE Asia. (Notice I didn’t say; “Viet Nam”) It may also be a reference to techniques used in an earlier hijacking, and if Cooper is the same guy. Especially when P says: "it is a possibility that this is the same thing that was used in (unintel). " Whatever it is, this is just one of many examples that have me convinced these transcripts are censored. Too many vital words and phrases just happen to vanish as (unintel). In this case it could be a reference to a prior hijacking still an active case. George (janitor) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blacksha 1 #2715 June 18, 2008 To ckret, Snowman, & Sluggo... You guys are great...you have very interesting posts...and I've learned alot about what Cooper could have or could have not done... ckret--did we ever find out what happened to SafeCrack? We do need to take a chill pill and get back on focus...we all have different opinions and not everything is meant as a PA... it's sad to see some of you attack each other and/or get your feelings hurt on a forum--you could be jumping out of an airplane after all! And, i do wanna know, when are you guys gonna make a (tandem?) skydive (if you haven't already)? Night jump or not, sport rig or not (NB6), it's gonna teach you alot about what Cooper did and give you an idea was he successful or not... Lonne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blacksha 1 #2716 June 18, 2008 And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #2717 June 18, 2008 We've mentioned this before, but some new images from http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francejohn/dc_page1.htm attached. I always wondered if maybe Dan Cooper was a nickname or maybe just a dreamy thing...child or adult. It's quite amazing that 36 years would go by without this comic book thing in the case file. Washington is quite close to Canada. If indeed Cooper had this mental connection, you would think someone in the FBI or someone they talked to, might make the same mental connection. I mean thousands of people were thinking about this thing right? Click thru the attached Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #2718 June 18, 2008 QuoteQuote...The cat may have survived the opening shock or not. The briefcase holding the cat may have broken loose and the cat fell to its death inside, or perhaps lived. What is the average float time of a dead cat? It depends, is it a North American or European cat? Important note - 20 lbs of cash is about the same weight as a coconut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #2719 June 18, 2008 But baseball is no good unless we're sure about the truth behind all the steroid questions. Baseball is important, it holds the US together, in its own little way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JSBIRD 1 #2720 June 18, 2008 QuoteI am of the belief that the flight path was as close to Victor-23 (V23) as is humanly possible. I would love to get the opinion of a commercial pilot that flew in the Pac NW back in the 70s. As of now, that’s my assumption. The track plotted on the 1971 Chart shows the plane East of V23 until he reached the BTG VOR. Then he turned more westerly and crossed the river just East of Pearson Air Park. This put him back on V-23. He crossed the river essentially on V23, which put him 2.3 miles NW of PDX Where the runways cross). He remained mostly on V-23 (as far as I can tell from the low-resolution image I have), but continued with a very erratic flight-path on into Northern California. That is, if we can believe the plotted track. Attached is a Portland Inset (from a current Seattle Sectional). It shows a Class C airspace. The chart the FBI plotted the track on (1971) did not show the Class C Space. However, V-23 certainly existed then and I suppose the airspace was cleared by ATC if it needed to be. (It would not need to be today because the highest ceiling of the Class C is 4,000 ft MSL and Scott was flying at 10,000 ft.) All accounts that I have read say they were flying V23. I have heard two arguments for why the Captain said he was flying V23, yet the plot shows that he was flying “generally near V23”. One is that they were making drastic level flight turns to try to dislodge Cooper from the stairs. Well, if that’s what they were doing, they didn’t go aft to see if they were successful, because they flew all the way to Reno not knowing if he was gone or not. I don’t think big jets can make those kinds of maneuvers (on purpose). Once again I’d like to talk to a Commercial Pilot with 727 experience. The other is that the flight crew had so much going on, they veered off course (a lot). This is more believable to me, but I’m still not buying it. I could speculate on High Altitude VOR or VORs being used at 10,000 ft. But it would take records from the day to know for sure, so it would be pure speculation. Anyway, use V-23 or use the FBI plot on a 1971 Sectional Chart, either way he crossed the river at the same place. Sluggo_Monster BTW: Thank you all for your support. As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. Sluggo, if you can continue on the course you're heading, I feel you have a big shot at moving this case forward. Thanks for keeping it fresh. 359 (My BASE#, not my DBC suspect #)"Now I've settled down, in a quiet little town, and forgot about everything" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #2721 June 18, 2008 Quote And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Sigh.. the youth of today. Even I am a "youth" in skydiving terms, and yet I have never made a single landing with radio (or done a tandem, for that matter, a fact I happen to be very proud of ). My understanding of rounds is that you just learnt to PLF. But, all that notwithstanding... another reason why a survivable jump (IF he managed to open) probably needed some experience - I believe broken ankles were pretty common on non-PLF'd jumps in those days... especially without boots. (thinks... broken ankles are pretty common these days too...but now I digress)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #2722 June 18, 2008 Quote [It depends, is it a North American or European cat? Well well well... I'm impressed! (a stereotype being that that particular humour doesn't make it across the Atlantic )Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ckret 0 #2723 June 18, 2008 "As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. "Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. Sluggo, if you can continue on the course you're heading, I feel you have a big shot at moving this case forward. Thanks for keeping it fresh. 359 (My BASE#, not my DBC suspect #)" I agree with you and I agree with Sluggo, given the parameter's Cooper set in place, V 23 was the most obvious. In fact they would have had to work to make the other V's fit. Now we have to determine why Cooper would have not declared a flight path. What would he gain by assuming, given the parameters he gave, they would take V 23. It may seem like a well beaten horse but it is important because it clears the way in making a strong statement about who Cooper might have been as a person. I am sure all will be revealed soon. Snowmman, I figured out PA's, personal attacks (and some on here don't think much of my investigative abilities). Never has happened from me and won't for very good reasons. As was just recently pointed out I am an FBI agent, this is a public forum, I am here as an FBI agent. You took my sense of humor the wrong way which is a big problem in the 2 dimensional world of the net. I will use more smiley faces Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #2724 June 18, 2008 Quote Quote And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Sigh.. the youth of today. Even I am a "youth" in skydiving terms, and yet I have never made a single landing with radio (or done a tandem, for that matter, a fact I happen to be very proud of ). My understanding of rounds is that you just learnt to PLF. But, all that notwithstanding... another reason why a survivable jump (IF he managed to open) probably needed some experience - I believe broken ankles were pretty common on non-PLF'd jumps in those days... especially without boots. (thinks... broken ankles are pretty common these days too...but now I digress) I learned to jump in 1968. My static line training was excellent, a full week of night classes lasting several hours each. ENDLESS emergency procedures practice. We were truly ready for a first jump malfunction. FF training was not so great back in the day. No AFF, no radios, you were on your own and had to teach yourself how to get stable. You were told to arch, count and pull. I had no altimeter. I got a lot of experience with flat spins and my own uncontrolled version of freestyle before I learned how to get stable. Once I relaxed in freefall it just came to me. Before, I had tensed up at the first sign of instability and that just made it worse. The great thing about round canopies is that once they were open you were generally going to be OK. The kind students jumped had very little forward drive so a downwind landing wasn't such a huge deal as it is now. No flare skills needed, just avoid trees, power lines and rocks. I think if Cooper pulled, then chances are he landed OK. What he encountered on the ground depends on where he exited and certainly affects his survival chances. If he went into deep water at night I think he drowned. Since survival is hugely dependent on where he exited, the microscopic attention to the flight path is warranted. If he were an experienced jumper I'd have expected him to take a reserve because you can use it to get down from trees. Just deploy it, get out of your harness and climb down the lines. A tree landing was a real possibility in the Pacific NW. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #2725 June 18, 2008 All, As a by-product of the project I’m working on, I produced a route (track) of the flight path of NWA 305 from when it left SEA to when it landed at RNO. You will recognize some of the points in this route, the others were gleaned from various reporting points in the transcripts. To view these you will need Google Earth Ver. 4.xx or greater and the two files attached (Aero_Charts_nl.kml and Actual Route.kmz). The file Aero_Charts_nl.kml contains Aeronautical Charts for the US. All you have to do is double click on the file and it will load into Google earth. Open Google Earth and open Actual Route.kmz. Step By Step Instructions: 1. Ensure you have the most up-to-date version of Google Earth by selecting Check for Updates Online in the Help menu. You MUST be using Google Earth Version 4. 2. Open your updated Google Earth. 3. Download the sectional data (see the External Links below). 4. Open the download file, which will automatically load it into Google Earth. 5. When Google Earth begins, you should see a bunch of blue outlines covering the entire US. These are the outlines of each map. 6. Zoom in until you see the name of the map that you want to view. 7. Check the box next to the map name listed under the Places menu on the left side of the screen. That will load the map. You can open one map at a time. Hints: • You can also view all of the Terminal Area Charts and 3D airspace polygons. Check under the Places Menu to enable these options. • The maps don't show up until you zoom in to about 500 miles or less in altitude. • The maps will load increasingly higher resolution as you zoom in. Give it a few seconds to download the higher resolution tiles when you stop moving the view. There are 1,000s of tiles altogether that make up the maps. • The 3D airspace polygons are a big file and might take a minute or so to load when you first enable them. • You can overlay the Terminal Area Charts right on top of the Sectional Charts. Enjoy, Sluggo_Monster If you need additional help, just ask. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 Next Page 109 of 2576 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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blacksha 1 #2715 June 18, 2008 To ckret, Snowman, & Sluggo... You guys are great...you have very interesting posts...and I've learned alot about what Cooper could have or could have not done... ckret--did we ever find out what happened to SafeCrack? We do need to take a chill pill and get back on focus...we all have different opinions and not everything is meant as a PA... it's sad to see some of you attack each other and/or get your feelings hurt on a forum--you could be jumping out of an airplane after all! And, i do wanna know, when are you guys gonna make a (tandem?) skydive (if you haven't already)? Night jump or not, sport rig or not (NB6), it's gonna teach you alot about what Cooper did and give you an idea was he successful or not... Lonne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blacksha 1 #2716 June 18, 2008 And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #2717 June 18, 2008 We've mentioned this before, but some new images from http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francejohn/dc_page1.htm attached. I always wondered if maybe Dan Cooper was a nickname or maybe just a dreamy thing...child or adult. It's quite amazing that 36 years would go by without this comic book thing in the case file. Washington is quite close to Canada. If indeed Cooper had this mental connection, you would think someone in the FBI or someone they talked to, might make the same mental connection. I mean thousands of people were thinking about this thing right? Click thru the attached Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #2718 June 18, 2008 QuoteQuote...The cat may have survived the opening shock or not. The briefcase holding the cat may have broken loose and the cat fell to its death inside, or perhaps lived. What is the average float time of a dead cat? It depends, is it a North American or European cat? Important note - 20 lbs of cash is about the same weight as a coconut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #2719 June 18, 2008 But baseball is no good unless we're sure about the truth behind all the steroid questions. Baseball is important, it holds the US together, in its own little way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSBIRD 1 #2720 June 18, 2008 QuoteI am of the belief that the flight path was as close to Victor-23 (V23) as is humanly possible. I would love to get the opinion of a commercial pilot that flew in the Pac NW back in the 70s. As of now, that’s my assumption. The track plotted on the 1971 Chart shows the plane East of V23 until he reached the BTG VOR. Then he turned more westerly and crossed the river just East of Pearson Air Park. This put him back on V-23. He crossed the river essentially on V23, which put him 2.3 miles NW of PDX Where the runways cross). He remained mostly on V-23 (as far as I can tell from the low-resolution image I have), but continued with a very erratic flight-path on into Northern California. That is, if we can believe the plotted track. Attached is a Portland Inset (from a current Seattle Sectional). It shows a Class C airspace. The chart the FBI plotted the track on (1971) did not show the Class C Space. However, V-23 certainly existed then and I suppose the airspace was cleared by ATC if it needed to be. (It would not need to be today because the highest ceiling of the Class C is 4,000 ft MSL and Scott was flying at 10,000 ft.) All accounts that I have read say they were flying V23. I have heard two arguments for why the Captain said he was flying V23, yet the plot shows that he was flying “generally near V23”. One is that they were making drastic level flight turns to try to dislodge Cooper from the stairs. Well, if that’s what they were doing, they didn’t go aft to see if they were successful, because they flew all the way to Reno not knowing if he was gone or not. I don’t think big jets can make those kinds of maneuvers (on purpose). Once again I’d like to talk to a Commercial Pilot with 727 experience. The other is that the flight crew had so much going on, they veered off course (a lot). This is more believable to me, but I’m still not buying it. I could speculate on High Altitude VOR or VORs being used at 10,000 ft. But it would take records from the day to know for sure, so it would be pure speculation. Anyway, use V-23 or use the FBI plot on a 1971 Sectional Chart, either way he crossed the river at the same place. Sluggo_Monster BTW: Thank you all for your support. As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. Sluggo, if you can continue on the course you're heading, I feel you have a big shot at moving this case forward. Thanks for keeping it fresh. 359 (My BASE#, not my DBC suspect #)"Now I've settled down, in a quiet little town, and forgot about everything" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #2721 June 18, 2008 Quote And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Sigh.. the youth of today. Even I am a "youth" in skydiving terms, and yet I have never made a single landing with radio (or done a tandem, for that matter, a fact I happen to be very proud of ). My understanding of rounds is that you just learnt to PLF. But, all that notwithstanding... another reason why a survivable jump (IF he managed to open) probably needed some experience - I believe broken ankles were pretty common on non-PLF'd jumps in those days... especially without boots. (thinks... broken ankles are pretty common these days too...but now I digress)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #2722 June 18, 2008 Quote [It depends, is it a North American or European cat? Well well well... I'm impressed! (a stereotype being that that particular humour doesn't make it across the Atlantic )Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #2723 June 18, 2008 "As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. "Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. Sluggo, if you can continue on the course you're heading, I feel you have a big shot at moving this case forward. Thanks for keeping it fresh. 359 (My BASE#, not my DBC suspect #)" I agree with you and I agree with Sluggo, given the parameter's Cooper set in place, V 23 was the most obvious. In fact they would have had to work to make the other V's fit. Now we have to determine why Cooper would have not declared a flight path. What would he gain by assuming, given the parameters he gave, they would take V 23. It may seem like a well beaten horse but it is important because it clears the way in making a strong statement about who Cooper might have been as a person. I am sure all will be revealed soon. Snowmman, I figured out PA's, personal attacks (and some on here don't think much of my investigative abilities). Never has happened from me and won't for very good reasons. As was just recently pointed out I am an FBI agent, this is a public forum, I am here as an FBI agent. You took my sense of humor the wrong way which is a big problem in the 2 dimensional world of the net. I will use more smiley faces Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #2724 June 18, 2008 Quote Quote And that question was also for georger, sorry... OK. A question I have. Given the success of someone wanting to learn about skydiving today, a big part of which is dependent upon flying the canopy numerous times under radio instruction, what was it like in those days? How much experience can we assume Cooper had, if any, if he was comfortable to jump without radio? What was the success rate of students jumping without radio guidance in those days? Being that landing under canopy is the hardest part, although deploying a landable parachute a very important part...(and of course adding in night and weather, which adds an entire different level of difficulty) Lonne Sigh.. the youth of today. Even I am a "youth" in skydiving terms, and yet I have never made a single landing with radio (or done a tandem, for that matter, a fact I happen to be very proud of ). My understanding of rounds is that you just learnt to PLF. But, all that notwithstanding... another reason why a survivable jump (IF he managed to open) probably needed some experience - I believe broken ankles were pretty common on non-PLF'd jumps in those days... especially without boots. (thinks... broken ankles are pretty common these days too...but now I digress) I learned to jump in 1968. My static line training was excellent, a full week of night classes lasting several hours each. ENDLESS emergency procedures practice. We were truly ready for a first jump malfunction. FF training was not so great back in the day. No AFF, no radios, you were on your own and had to teach yourself how to get stable. You were told to arch, count and pull. I had no altimeter. I got a lot of experience with flat spins and my own uncontrolled version of freestyle before I learned how to get stable. Once I relaxed in freefall it just came to me. Before, I had tensed up at the first sign of instability and that just made it worse. The great thing about round canopies is that once they were open you were generally going to be OK. The kind students jumped had very little forward drive so a downwind landing wasn't such a huge deal as it is now. No flare skills needed, just avoid trees, power lines and rocks. I think if Cooper pulled, then chances are he landed OK. What he encountered on the ground depends on where he exited and certainly affects his survival chances. If he went into deep water at night I think he drowned. Since survival is hugely dependent on where he exited, the microscopic attention to the flight path is warranted. If he were an experienced jumper I'd have expected him to take a reserve because you can use it to get down from trees. Just deploy it, get out of your harness and climb down the lines. A tree landing was a real possibility in the Pacific NW. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #2725 June 18, 2008 All, As a by-product of the project I’m working on, I produced a route (track) of the flight path of NWA 305 from when it left SEA to when it landed at RNO. You will recognize some of the points in this route, the others were gleaned from various reporting points in the transcripts. To view these you will need Google Earth Ver. 4.xx or greater and the two files attached (Aero_Charts_nl.kml and Actual Route.kmz). The file Aero_Charts_nl.kml contains Aeronautical Charts for the US. All you have to do is double click on the file and it will load into Google earth. Open Google Earth and open Actual Route.kmz. Step By Step Instructions: 1. Ensure you have the most up-to-date version of Google Earth by selecting Check for Updates Online in the Help menu. You MUST be using Google Earth Version 4. 2. Open your updated Google Earth. 3. Download the sectional data (see the External Links below). 4. Open the download file, which will automatically load it into Google Earth. 5. When Google Earth begins, you should see a bunch of blue outlines covering the entire US. These are the outlines of each map. 6. Zoom in until you see the name of the map that you want to view. 7. Check the box next to the map name listed under the Places menu on the left side of the screen. That will load the map. You can open one map at a time. Hints: • You can also view all of the Terminal Area Charts and 3D airspace polygons. Check under the Places Menu to enable these options. • The maps don't show up until you zoom in to about 500 miles or less in altitude. • The maps will load increasingly higher resolution as you zoom in. Give it a few seconds to download the higher resolution tiles when you stop moving the view. There are 1,000s of tiles altogether that make up the maps. • The 3D airspace polygons are a big file and might take a minute or so to load when you first enable them. • You can overlay the Terminal Area Charts right on top of the Sectional Charts. Enjoy, Sluggo_Monster If you need additional help, just ask. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
