DB Cooper

[377 22]

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Bigsky,

Don't mean to take you to task, but I think these are the closing arguments to the long debated subject of Cooper's jump experience.

Are sport chutes not reliable? If Cooper chose the NB6 because it is reliable and the sport chute is not, you people have choosen one hell of a sport to participate in.

Lastly, why do smoke jumpers use chutes today that they cannot effectivly control, as was the case in Coopers jump? Or, do they use rounds they can control, which then comparison to Cooper's jump has no merit. If smoke jumpers do use rounds that cannot effectivly be controled, why? That makes no sense to me.

Smoke Jumpers use steerable rounds and have for many decades. They used a Derry Slot steering mod but it isnt so different from sport steerable mods. Riggers can chime in here.

Being able to get down from trees is a big deal for Smoke Jumpers because some of the places they jump into have few or no clear landing areas.

It doesn't look like Cooper carried any rope or rappeling gear so a reserve might be his only way down from a tree. Landing in a tree at night in cold rain suspended 20 or more feet from the ground is a very serious deal. If you just drop you can break bones or worse. If you dont get down you eventually die.

I used to be positive Cooper was a skydiver, but no more. His gear choice says a lot to me and none of it says skydiver.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

[mccurley 1]

you people have choosen one hell of a sport to participate in.

Did a little light just flick on above your head?

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[Ckret 0]

Aggie, 377

Thanks for the response.

[georger 247]

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...The cat may have survived the opening shock or not.
The briefcase holding the cat may have broken loose and the cat fell to its death inside, or perhaps lived.

What is the average float time of a dead cat?

It depends, is it a North American or European cat?

Important note - 20 lbs of cash is about the same weight as a coconut.

I was going to say: depends on the ph of the water
and the grin on the cat.

[georger 247]

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But baseball is no good unless we're sure about the truth behind all the steroid questions. Baseball is important, it holds the US together, in its own little way.

I beg to differ, damnit! Its the Celtics that hold
the planet together.

Former Lakers Fan.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Snowman said:

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I think there's too much theorizing about the flight path, because the theorizing may not include all variables..subtle tells and knobs that might not be predictable by everyone

I disagree, we can get into this more if you want though.

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The best way to determine if the flight path would be predictable by Cooper, based on the interactions between Cooper and crew, would be to create a script and enact it with a number of different flight crews, and see what flight path they take.

To make it more accurate you need to include the Northwest/Orient Flight OPS and ATC. I'll explain when we get to Ckret's quote. That being said If you include the two groups I added you will end up with V-23 every time and if you don't someone isn't doing their job right.

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If they all take the same flight path, then the flight path was predictable. But if different flight paths are chosen, we're not done...

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. This isn't a case of this route being flown regularly. But just because they don't "all take the same flight path" doesn't mean you can predict V-23 would be taken in this case.
Ckret said:

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We know the answer to this, the flight crew was going to take Cooper out over the coast, the crew made no reference to V23 until they were directed to that flight path.

I disagree to a certain extent. The route first gets discussed on page 61 of the ATC transcripts pdf. Ground Control mentions that the first enroute leg has an MOA of 15,000 feet on J-5. Why they would even mention J-5 I don't know, but it really isn't important either, because due to the MOA and proximately of Mt. Hood, and the fact the flight would be below 18,000, J-5 would never been taken (Or any Jet Route for that matter). They likely were just trying to help by looking at the most direct route.

In response to this Scott says that they may have to go come in from the coast on another route possibly. He advises the ground controller that he is going to contact NW flight ops. A couple of transmissions later Scott advises ground control that the company is working on the clearance. ATC suggests V-23 the pilots relay the suggestion to NW flight ops and it is ultimately agreed upon quickly.

So after a long winded post I guess what I am saying is does it really matter that the company was looking at the coastal route? ATC (more familiar with the area) advised V-23 and all parties agreed.

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Could Cooper have known they would be directed to that flight path? Why were they directed to that flight path?

Not for certain unless he had some sort of radio receiver, which is highly unlikely. He could've had a fairly good idea that his restrictions would dictate the route though. As I said above they were directed to that flight path because ATC suggested it would be the best route once they pulled out the low altitude enroute charts. I'm not sure how involved a commercial pilot was involved with the flight plan in 1971, but it isn't much at all anymore.

[georger 247]

As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate.

If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice.
Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route.

REPLY:
Sluggo and apparently you think DBC made demands forcing V23. This ignores a large amount of the transcript where routes were explored openly for
a long period of time before V23 was chosen.

There werent that many choices given 'parachuting' and 'Mexico' and 'BELOW 10000 feet" which was Cooper's original request. Maybe Cooper knew this,
maybe he did not.

If Ckret is right and Cooper actually wanted to leave
right after liftoff at Seattle, then V23 is irrelevant.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Ckret,
In my opinion it’s “all about” the two turns. A 27º Left-Turn (at MALAY Fix) and a 24º Right-Turn (at the BTG VOR). Turns easily measured with (even a cheap) compass.

You could feel those two turns without a compass. The one thing if we are going with this theory that I would like to have is a stopwatch though, but like a compass in this case that is more of a backup tool to reconfirm what you suspect. It doesn't get much "easier" than this section of v-23 to do what Sluggo is suggesting.

[georger 247]

I agree with you and I agree with Sluggo, given the parameter's Cooper set in place, V 23 was the most obvious. In fact they would have had to work to make the other V's fit.

Now we have to determine why Cooper would have not declared a flight path. What would he gain by assuming, given the parameters he gave, they would take V 23. It may seem like a well beaten horse but it is important because it clears the way in making a strong statement about who Cooper might have been as a person.

REPLY: all he has to do to guarantee V23 as I see it,
is say Im parachuting and BELOW 10000 FEET WHICH WAS HIS ORIGINAL REQUEST. It's in the transcript clear as day.

Whether Cooper said "BELOW" or not is irrelevant. This
is what Scott told SEA and this is what SEA heard and acted on in reviewing routes. They chose a route with
the lowest elevation outside of taking the plane out
along the coatline, which would have cost more fuel.

I may be missing something but it seems to me there
were only two options, coastal vs. V23. Coastal equaled greater fuel consumption so they went V23
and V23 offers the option of finding Cooper after he bails. (I wonder what Cooper would have said had they
told him: "we are going a coastal route to let you bail over water!". You know he would have nixed that)

I am beginning to believe there is something about V23 that only you and Sluggo know about, that makes
V23 important, after you previously said Cooper intended to bail near Seattle.

It probably has something todo with a new money find
or something!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Sluggo: I thought there was some discussion in the transcripts of changing the flap/wheel configuration after Cooper had jumped. (which would be a prediction)

Do we know that the flap/wheel configuration was consistent thru the flight, so that the fuel burns mentioned were consistent thru the flight?

I don't think we do?

No, we don’t know that they were.

Just north of RNO the pilot ask for slow decents and states that he can’t make a standard-rate turn due to the configuration (10:28 Page 208). So, I feel they were in the same configuration. Remember, they weren’t sure he was gone, so I don’t think they would have made changes.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Mr.Nuke 0]

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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23"

But if you agree that there is no choice, but V-23 then why did he need to say it?

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The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands.

If he wanted V-23 and didn't explicitly say so, it had nothing to do with the path of the flight being tracked. Heck if this was the case he knew basically where the track of the plane would be. And knowing the track has done very little to solve the case in first 37 years.

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So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Did you know about victor airways and jet routes before the discussion here or taking on the case? I tend to think the at or below 10,000, flaps at 15 showed some degree of aviation knowledge (not necessarily much). However, if Cooper would've said you must fly V-23 it would immediately reveal significantly more information about himself than what needed to be revealed. It also would've changed the course of the investigation. Focus would've immediately turned to pilots, air traffic controllers, jump masters, and anyone else who would be familiar with aviation.

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Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

I apologize I thought I did.

The nukester

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I think the Orchards-Hokinson area would have been a much more productive search area than Merwin Dam (in 1972).
Sluggo_Monster

1) I don't see why you mention Orchards-Hockinson, given SE(?) winds? Seems to be the wrong side of the flight path. Assuming you meant Hockinson?
2) As a corollary to this theorem, are you saying the money bag didn't fall into the Columbia then? It's almost 6 miles from Orchards to the Columbia. I don't see any hydrology I'd fall in love with that would transport it to the Ingram site.

Basically I don't understand your predicted search area.
Can you explain why you picked that area?

(edit) Ah, did you leave yourself an out: in 1972? If that was on purpose. it's still odd because of wind direction. Also what would be your 1980 search site?

The winds were “out of 225 degrees” that is SW to NE.

I don’t address the money (no bag) at all. I’ll leave that stuff to you guys.

I don’t understand the 1980 question, the big search occurred in Jan, 1972.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

If he said Fly Victor-23, you would have used a different profile. There is value in not letting investigators know what you know, and hence who you are.

I promised you I'd let you use "Investigative Technology" and I'll stick to what I know. I'm honoring that. When I pay you the dinner I owe you (I think), I give you my opinion.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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"Doesn’t matter, consensus doesn’t make fact.

Sluggo_Monster"


Goes along the lines of, "perception is reality"..... to the sheep. Thats why you, Sluggo Monster, howl at the moon. Don't wolves eat sheep?

That sounded very John Wayne didn’t it.? Not very typical Sluggo.

I eat shit and chase rabbits, too.

I am RELENTLESS when chasing some rabbits. Especially the DB type.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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a line of thought along Nuke's lines:
If Cooper demands V-23, then they know he wants/needs V-23, and the possibility exists that they make up a reason why they can't take V-23...then it becomes a battle of wits with Cooper arguing he knows more than them and they can take V-23. Look at the stupid arguments about the stair deployment, refuel time etc.

If you tell people what you want, they they have leverage. Don't give people leverage and you're more in control. If they didn't give him V-23, he might give up.

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I think I see what you are saying.

But, I think it's more about "Continued flight into terrain” than a battle of wits.

It’s dark, they’re flying at 10,000 MSL, there’s mountains out there (sometimes known as cumulo-basalt clouds).

Sluggo_Monster

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[georger 247]

Well there is the argument that has been made by several old school jumpers here that he took the bail out rig because it is reliable. That is what that type of rig is for. He didn’t need performance he needed it to work and get him down alive.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

Man…. I hate to say it this way…. But if you insist….
36.5 years of no missing person, no body, and no capture. Just 284 of 10,000 bills found on a sand bar. Something worked (from a “solution to the crime” standpoint), whether he lived or died.

36.5 years later and he still keeps you and me (and Himmelsbach, I understand) awake at night.

That’s Why? Why? Why?

I promised, for me , now, the question is How? How? How?

Sluggo_Monster

If you have a “Take Your Kid to Work Day,” can I pretend I’m your son and spend the day at the Seattle FBI Office (I promise I won’t go into the basement)?

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23"

But if you agree that there is no choice, but V-23 then why did he need to say it?

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The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands.

If he wanted V-23 and didn't explicitly say so, it had nothing to do with the path of the flight being tracked. Heck if this was the case he knew basically where the track of the plane would be. And knowing the track has done very little to solve the case in first 37 years.

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So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Did you know about victor airways and jet routes before the discussion here or taking on the case? I tend to think the at or below 10,000, flaps at 15 showed some degree of aviation knowledge (not necessarily much). However, if Cooper would've said you must fly V-23 it would immediately reveal significantly more information about himself than what needed to be revealed. It also would've changed the course of the investigation. Focus would've immediately turned to pilots, air traffic controllers, jump masters, and anyone else who would be familiar with aviation.

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Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

I apologize I thought I did.

The nukester

Thank you Mr. Nuke,

I feel like you "get it". When I finish my project, I think it will help those unfamiliar with the flight and navigation issues to better understand.

Thanks again.

Sluggo_Monster

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[georger 247]

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Sluggo: I thought there was some discussion in the transcripts of changing the flap/wheel configuration after Cooper had jumped. (which would be a prediction)

Do we know that the flap/wheel configuration was consistent thru the flight, so that the fuel burns mentioned were consistent thru the flight?

I don't think we do?

REPLY: There was this very discussion. It was concluded flight configs changed or as Sluggo pointed out, they would have burned out before reaching Reno. If you recall I finally posted to say: "but they did land at Reno nonstop". So obviously flight configs changed. The transcript does document 11000 ft near the end,
for example.

This sets up just one more large contradiction. We
know they changed flight configs. We know if nothing
else they did change altitude to 11000 (TR10/11
say so). And at the same time they supposedly dont know Cooper is gone? Can't have it both ways. They
knew Coopoeras gone and there had been plenty of discussion about it with NWA. They altered configs and
went on to Reno rather than landing ("as soon as he bails") which ahd been their earlier instruction.

Now, just looking at Sluggo's tic map Sluggo also issued a velocity breakdown for each leg between tics. I repost that below. Relating to fuel consumption,
how did 305 travel at 202.8 kts (19:57-58) then at
165 knots (58-59), and 243.6 at (20:01-02) then at
182.4 (02-03). I dont understand these large variations in air speed spearated by only 60 seconds each. Maybe that has something to do with fuel
consumption? I must not understand Sluggo's chart.
Thanks.

• Quote

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

A few posts ago I made a joke:

***If you have a “Take Your Kid to Work Day,” can I pretend I’m your son and spend the day at the Seattle FBI Office (I promise I won’t go into the basement)?[/quote}

But, seriously, that got me thinking about something. This forum has a lot of people, with differing backgrounds, knowledge, and skill, participating. We are all “knowledge hungry” and never seen to get enough “factual information.”

Every once in a while, in response to a question, you’ll reach into your evidence (toy) box and pull out a tid-bit. (eg. The “Parachute Instruction Sheet.”)

I can’t help but wonder how many items in all those evidence boxes, that don’t mean crap to you, or that seem insignificant to you, that would help the rest of us better understand some of the decisions that have been made by the FBI, or could stimulate a whole new line of inquiry.

You and I have discussed (privately and publically), the issue of FBI work product, and the fact that you can’t release that to the public. I think all of us (except some of the anarchist) respect that.

But, how can we know what questions to ask? I don’t think I would ever have thought to ask; “Did Cossey send an instruction sheet with the parachutes?” How can we increase the flow of information in this direction?

As I said before, I sometimes feel like I’m looking through a narrow slit in the door, and unless she moves into just the right position, I can’t see……. Oh! I didn’t mean to go there!
Anyway, bring out some more tid-bits… The dogs are hungry, they need to be fed.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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REPLY: There was this very discussion. It was concluded flight configs changed or as Sluggo pointed out, they would have burned out before reaching Reno. If you recall I finally posted to say: "but they did land at Reno nonstop". So obviously flight configs changed. The transcript does document 11000 ft near the end, for example.

This sets up just one more large contradiction. We
know they changed flight configs. We know if nothing
else they did change altitude to 11000 (TR10/11
say so). And at the same time they supposedly dont know Cooper is gone? Can't have it both ways. They
knew Coopoeras gone and there had been plenty of discussion about it with NWA. They altered configs and
went on to Reno rather than landing ("as soon as he bails") which ahd been their earlier instruction.

Now, just looking at Sluggo's tic map Sluggo also issued a velocity breakdown for each leg between tics. I repost that below. Relating to fuel consumption,
how did 305 travel at 202.8 kts (19:57-58) then at
165 knots (58-59), and 243.6 at (20:01-02) then at
182.4 (02-03). I dont understand these large variations in air speed spearated by only 60 seconds each. Maybe that has something to do with fuel
consumption? I must not understand Sluggo's chart.
Thanks.

I think it's due to the plus or minus 1 NM stated error in the radar data and the fact that the tic-marks are all on the even minute (i.e. 20:11 as opposed to 20:11:15). That could produce a lot of variation right there. If the tic-marks were at 15 second deltas (about 0.7 NM each) you would probably get a much different picture. But alas, I'm just guessing. We still have absolutely nothing in the way of explanation for the chart. It was just plopped down on our table, and we made a lot of assumptions. I think they were reasonable assumptions, but assumptions none the less.

Maybe Ckret has some accompanying information that we don’t have.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Whooooops!

I misstated something.

On the LZ map data the error was expressed like this:
The north-south span of possible jump positions is a product of the radar position tolerance of ± 0.5 mile, and the possible communication time determination tolerance of ±1 minute.

Then later it says; If it is assumed aircraft position, jump time, wind vector, and other inputs are all accurate (without allowance for the above stated tolerances):….


I assume it is the same for the 1971 Seattle Sectional (because it is the same data).

Sluggo_Monster

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[georger 247]

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Ckret,
In my opinion it’s “all about” the two turns. A 27º Left-Turn (at MALAY Fix) and a 24º Right-Turn (at the BTG VOR). Turns easily measured with (even a cheap) compass.

You could feel those two turns without a compass. The one thing if we are going with this theory that I would like to have is a stopwatch though, but like a compass in this case that is more of a backup tool to reconfirm what you suspect. It doesn't get much "easier" than this section of v-23 to do what Sluggo is suggesting.

Stopwatch doesnt help if air velocity varies wildly as
in Sluggo's tic chart ?

[377 22]

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If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.

Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

If Cooper needed V23 he could have asked directly, but that would show he knew a lot about flying, about local sectional charts, which would have narrowed the list of suspects. It does indeed look like Cooper assured that V 23 would be picked by issuing contraints that left only one resolution available... but, somtimes retropective analysis makes random stuff look really coherent and clever. I think it is possible that Cooper had no idea what V 23 was let alone how to get the crew to fly it without ever mentioning it explicitly.

We seem to be focused intensely on where Cooper jumped. Lets get some parallel dialog on who he might have been. I say he was not a skydiver, and had big debts with high pressure to pay. I also think there is a high probablility that he had no prior felony criminal record. I stand ready to be proven wrong. Fire away.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.