DB Cooper

[ltdiver 3]

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I don't know if a similar phenomena happens in fresh water bodies of the type found in the likely Cooper LZ.

Back about 20 years ago I knew someone who fell overboard on Lake Havasu and wasn't found until a week later. They searched every day for him until they luckily found him. He had been on a boat filled with family, one who jumped overboard immediately to find him, but couldn't. They surmised that he hit his head on the way over and sunk.

One other worthy note...salt water is more buoyant than fresh water.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[377 22]

You raise some valid points and make me wish I had thought of them myself. If you didn't own a rig, buying a jumpable one in 71 without a trace would be very hard to do. I have never seen a ready to jump military rig in a surplus store even back in the 50s and 60s. A non skydiver buying a rig from a jumper sure would have set off some alarms once the Cooper hijack took place. Everyone who made such a sale would be wondering if Cooper had been the buyer.

Non skydivers/jumpers give themselves away soooo fast when they are trying to bluff experience. I recently met a guy who had wowed all the women at a party with his tales of jumping as a Green Beret. I dont know enough about Special Forces to know if that part was fake but I can guarantee he had never made a ram air HALO jump. I just kept my mouth shut and let him rant on about how the Green Berets can steer their "parasails" into tiny "dropzones".

On the other side of that coin, a ridiculously nerdy guy who worked at my local Radio Shack heard that I jumped and mentioned that he had made a few military jumps. Turned out this skinny awkward kid really had been in the Special Forces and knew all about HALO HAHO, the gear, how it was rigged etc.

You just never know...

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I don't know if a similar phenomena happens in fresh water bodies of the type found in the likely Cooper LZ.

Back about 20 years ago I knew someone who fell overboard on Lake Havasu and wasn't found until a week later. They searched every day for him until they luckily found him. He had been on a boat filled with family, one who jumped overboard immediately to find him, but couldn't. They surmised that he hit his head on the way over and sunk.

One other worthy note...salt water is more buoyant than fresh water.

ltdiver

I think when a person drowns and sinks, the primary natural mechanism for refloating is the inflation of body cavities (eg stomach, intestines) with gases that come from decomposing organic materials. If scavangers pierce all the cavities then the gases just bubble up and the bodies remain submerged.

Ckret probably knows more from the forensic training he went through.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I was musing about how Cooper might have stashed the canopy on landing, if he didn't go back to retrieve it. And its never been reported found.

He would have wanted to hide it a little, just to make sure no one was immediately on his tail while he was making his ground escape.

Here's the weird thing: How did that canopy that was found in April, up near Amboy, stay hidden so long? From the final press reports, they were implying it was a deployed canopy used on some specific case in the area way back when, which is hard to believe.

I can understand if the canopy wasn't deployed, and it somehow got buried. But it doesn't make sense that a deployed canopy somehow got buried where someone recently did some grading? Maybe it was hand-bunched and stashed?

I mean, if that canopy was deployed and hidden, then Cooper's could easily have been the same way and never been found? Similar area in '71 (farmer's fields).

Arguably his body too, but again, I'm assuming he pulled ok.

[dyskiver 0]

*If I were Ckret and Rataczak is still alive, I would
interview him again asap.*


Reply: Forgive me if I am wrong but hasn't Jo said this like a thousand times over the last few months? What do you think Ckret?

Also, I know someone asked this a while back(in the last 2 weeks or so) but was never answered, what happened with the parachute find? I realize it was ruled out as "The" parachute, but has anyone dug up the remaining harness/container just to see whats there? If it were on my property you bet I would be there digging it up!

[snowmman 3]

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*If I were Ckret and Rataczak is still alive, I would interview him again asap.*

Have his phone number if Ckret wants it.
Still flying his own private plane apparently.
He's only 69 or so?

I think Sluggo was trying to get me to call him..

"you call him" "no you call him" "i'm not going to call him, you call him"...
"I know, let's get Ckret to call him, he'll call anybody"

[377 22]

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Forgive me if I am wrong but hasn't Jo said this like a thousand times over the last few months? What do you think Ckret?

Jo does have some good ideas that often get ignored because of her other ideas that people disagree with. Witnesses are getting old. It would be a real shame if we lost an opportunity to clear something up due to the death or incompetency of a witness who is currently available and able.

Still, the most reliable witness info was that which was gathered early. Interviews decades later can produce answers that are unconsciously polluted by articles, stories, movies etc. You'd be surprised at how much eye witnesses add to their original stories when interviewed years later.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in 1997 to a local Aero club where he lived.
(edit) It's the first news article at this search
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&ned=&q=scott+makeshift+waist+pack&ie=UTF-8

I bolded some interesting things. Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag?

He also mentions that turbulence triggered his exchange with Cooper at 2005? So that's interesting.

Note Scott seemed to like the Lake Merwin LZ idea. Maybe they listened to Scott more than Rataczak?

One who was there tells intriguing tales of DB Cooper
Arizona Daily Star - NewsBank - Jan 21, 1997

After a quarter of a century, D.B. Cooper still packs the house.
Well, to be precise, it was actually pilot William Scott's recent talk at the Aero Club of Arizona - an organization for aviation enthusiasts - that pulled in a standing-room-only crowd.

The Aero Club, which has about 100 members in the Tucson and Green Valley area, presents speakers on everything from the Civil Air Patrol to aerobatic flying.
..
When they reached Seattle, they flew in a holding pattern until Cooper's demands were met. Scott didn't tell the plane's 36 passengers what was happening.

``But I think they got the message when the stewardess came down the aisle with a parachute over her shoulder,'' he added, cracking up the audience.

When the plane landed in Seattle, Cooper released the passengers and two of the stewardesses, collected the loot and the three extra parachutes and told Scott to fly to Mexico. They were to stop in Reno, Nev., to refuel.

``I was happy he negotiated over the phone through Tina (Mucklow, the stewardess),'' Scott said.

Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps.

After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack.

When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills.

``We can't take tips,'' she said.

Instructing Mucklow to go forward, he told her to pull the curtain between the first class and coach sections. He said that she was to turn the lights down, and she wasn't to look back.

She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence.

Scott wondered if Cooper was still aboard. Turning on the public address system, he inquired, ``Is everything all right, sir?''

``Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied.

After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly.

``I thought maybe I'd call him, but I thought maybe I'd just not bother him,'' he said.

In Reno, Scott managed to land the plane with the steps down without damaging aircraft.

Before leaving the plane, he and the crew searched for Cooper's briefcase but were unable to find it.

Cooper had jumped in a business suit and street shoes from the plane, which was traveling about 190 miles an hour at 10,000 feet.

At that altitude the temperature was 7 below zero. Cooper - with 20 pounds of money strapped to his waist - had dropped into some of the most rugged country in the Pacific Northwest.

``There was a big reservoir down there with trees in it,'' Scott said. ``I just thought he went down there and got wrapped up in the trees.''

[skyjack71 0]

According to the night clerk who told the FBI about Cooper spending the night at the hotel - he arrived by taxi and there was a woman with him.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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He might also avoid a rail line because the police routinely checked rail points for suspects.

So many options, so little time.

NOW, you are thinking like a man on the run - sly like a fox and as quick as a fox. but after 17 yrs in prison you are not going to go back for the rest of his life...this mean move like a snake along the ground and undercover of night and woods. Stay away from any point they will be looking, such as any place they might thing you landed, airport or jump zone, don't go back to that car - what if the FBI ID'd you, stay low and go where they will not be looking.

Try to run and you will be caught just lay low and quiet till you have a plan to get yourself out of this mess you just jumped into....after all you didn't expect to survive.

The FBI needs to think like Cooper and decide what would they do? Snowmman would have got caught the first day running...they were watching for hitch hikers. Every truck driver going through the area was on ALERT.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Mr.Nuke 0]

My issue was with this statement.

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If Rataczak and others could see the lights of Portland
Cooper could see them too! He knew where he was at
in general terms and bailed.

It wasn’t with whether or not Cooper saw the lights of Portland/Vancouver. Based on where Cooper likely jumped, they would be fairly hard to miss. My issue is that blanket statement isn’t necessarily true. Cooper and Rataczak didn’t have the same view, which gets us to this.

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REPLY> This is worth revisiting. see map attached.
Notice angles of approach to Portland with respect
to a personsitting in the cabin of the plane. Not to preclude person sitting in plane can move around and look out any window he wants right to behind the cockpit door! Take Rataczak's words at face value.

Again, yes a person can move around, but you are still rather limited. And no he couldn’t (or at least he didn’t) move to right behind the cockpit door. I’m fairly sure Cooper demanded the section curtain to be closed, but the crew likely would’ve left the cockpit door open considering the situation. Yes, Cooper had access to the views Rataczak had in the cabin, but clearly didn’t use them. So I think with a reasonable degree of certainty we can say Cooper stayed in the back (economy) portion of the plane. Heck he likely stayed by the backstairs after he opened them.

The curious thing to me is Rataczak did not say "lights
of Portland" but "suburbs" of Portland. The city itself?


But we are talking not only about Portland but Vancouver and Portland. Two sets of large lights.

[snowmman 3]

Jo mentioned her suite101 postings.

A quick way to reference them is to copy the following
into your google search

site:suite101.com homes4ubyjo

homes4ubyjo is what Jo used for a moniker there.
roughly the 2002-2006 era.

I doubt there's any info there, that hasn't been republished here though.

I do have one question:
Jo: at suite101 you said:
" I have researched this subject for over 6 yrs and have spoke 100's of conversations with Mr. Himmelsbach"

I can't imagine Ralph talking to you for 100's of conversations. He was retired at the time. Why would he talk to you that much?

In another post at DZ.com you say (post 3343)

I had been asked to write down everything I could remember about the trip by Doug Pasternak and Himmelsbach had told me to keep notes about people who contacted me and what I remembered. "

Why would a retired agent ask you to keep notes about people who contacted you? Did he mean recently? or back when Duane was alive or ???
(edit) But Duane was dead when you talked to H...

[skyjack71 0]

Georger stated:

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I remember Safecracking's comments well, when he
was trying to reason things out based on a 2 min float time, and I remember Safe's skepticism this
would ever work. I was sitting here lurking at the time and I smiled and thought "Safe is on to something important". That was the last time I took the Washougal theory seriously. But it left wide open getting money to Tina Bar. The only real solution
was to move the DZ south or provide an alternate money route, as I see this.

OR the money being put there at a later date by Cooper.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

The new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX.

The I5 bridge there has towers that are 240 ft tall.
pretty visible.

You could walk 10 miles that night and be in downtown Portland, and get most anywhere you want by the next morning.

You could have new clothes and fly to the East coast.

This skulking about business is for the movies.

The key is to act normal, I think.

(edit) ground view of towers attached

[georger 247]

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Why didn't Cooper bring his own rig? Would have saved LOTS of time and would have totally spoofed the cops who would have been expecting him to land with the plane somewhere. Once he asked for the chutes, it was clearly going to be a jump and run situation. I have put rigs in overhead racks back in the day. It was easy, just bag it and nobody knew what it was or showed any concern or interest.

377

REPLY> ... justwalks on the plane with a parachute
and says, "it's for my grandma. She always wanted one", or, "Im entering a parachuting contest in Seattle
and the prise is $200000 dollars"! . He could have pretended he was woman and pregannt?

[Ckret 0]

Slugster,

I consider you my co-case agent and to have you come up with IPIN is somewhat lacking. I am known worldwide for bank robber nicknames (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003168951_nicknames02m.html) as such you must come up with something that has more "POP" than IPIN.

I think it's a good idea, lots of running room here, but we have to come up with somthing that catches the eye of pop culture. So, DZ folks, lets come up with an acronym for our "big toe" Sluggo (I love that movie).

[Ckret 0]

Someone asked about the found shoe, I cannot find reference to it anywhere in the case file. That would have been a major find, considering there is nothing on it I am calling myth.

[skyjack71 0]

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I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in 1997 to a local Aero club where he lived.

I bolded some interesting things. Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag?

Where is this article - I have never seen it - I have maintained that Cooper had something similiar to a Fanny Pack and it was mentioned in the other thread and in other forums I participated in, BUT, the FBI has ever stated anything like this - I have never read anything like this until this VERY moment, except for my statements which went totally ignored.

If this is true and Scott did say this and the FBI is aware of it why haven't they acknowledge what I have stated about this before????. I do not even know if there was such a thing as a fanny pack in 1971, but I have described in past posts that he had something around his waist under his jacket, but NO ONE has ever acknowledged this ... I remember suggesting it was something that maybe power line workers or carpenters use - I even at one time in this forum I believe suggested he had something to hook the money to. I even suggested that maybe Cooper was wearing a backbrace to protect himself from injury.

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After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack.

Please someone tell me why I had never been told that this was the one thing I was telling that had not been made public at least to my knowledge. If it is indeed true.

CKRET: Why was I not told this - is this true and was it well known. I have in my files every article and book that I have ever read? Right now I don't know whether to cry, laugh, scream - it is too late to call anyone. But then maybe Snowmman is pulling my leg and this was never written and never was reported.

Maybe someone is playing a cruel joke.

I will need a sleeping pill tonight and I need answers tomorrow. You can be assured I will be on the phone to others I have spoke to in the past.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

You are on line now - I need to talk to someone before I totally loose it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

In reference to this ship needing a rudder, I think that question has been answered. Who has built a web site, who has had fights with his wife over Cooper (Slugster, you're not the only one), Its Sluggo.

Sluggo, you are on your way to being the worlds expert on Cooper. With the support of folks like Snowmman, Georger, 377 and SafeCrack (where the hell is he) how could you miss. Keep at it and don't get so discouraged, I will continue to provide you with info as you build your data base. Just understand (as for the rest of you) if i am not responsive it is because I am away on other matters.

[snowmman 3]

Jo that's what the article said.
(edit) I updated the post above so you can see where the news article came from. Don't make more of it than it is

I'm assuming Scott misspoke.
Scott didn't see anything.

I partly posted that to show that what georger said about witnesses changing their stores in the future, seems to be true.

Although I was thinking about the comment Tina apparently made about "knapsack around his waist" ..and Ckret's comment about Cooper apparently trying to use the chest packs as money containers.

In the end, I think ckret's story is right about the money bag plus rope.

I just posted the news article, well because it was out there. Note there are a few other things in there that are kinda wrong from Scott too.

I was wondering if they paid more attention to Scott's
Lake Merwin theory then they should have.

Also: Scott wasn't on the re-enactment of the pressure bump. Bill R. was? So I'm thinking there could be reasons why Bill R. wasn't listened to as much as Scott?

[Ckret 0]

The make shift waist container was the belly chute he cut open, this is not new.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Also: Scott wasn't on the re-enactment of the pressure bump. Bill R. was? So I'm thinking there could be reasons why Bill R. wasn't listened to as much as Scott?

I believe it was Anderson who was on the re-enactment flight. If Scott was listened to anymore than the others it was probably to do with seniority more than anything.

[snowmman 3]

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Also: Scott wasn't on the re-enactment of the pressure bump. Bill R. was? So I'm thinking there could be reasons why Bill R. wasn't listened to as much as Scott?

I believe it was Anderson who was on the re-enactment flight. If Scott was listened to anymore than the others it was probably to due with seniority more than anything.

AH! I knew I got it wrong. I wonder if Anderson had a discussion afterwards with Rataczak and Scott about the pressure bump. It's odd that Scott seemed to like the Lake Merwin story. I wonder if he just got snookered into the oscillations=jump theory early on?

You would have thought they would all of gotten together to discuss the pressure bump after Anderson flew on the plane for the test flight.

[Ckret 0]

Mr Nuke, or should I say record straighter outer,

Thanks for setting Snowmman straight, he is an amazing resource, but every now and then you have to let him know he is not Google.