DB Cooper

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Note there are a few other things in there that are kinda wrong from Scott too.

I'm not going to pay to read the article, but combined with the whole Himmelsbach retirement incident this is rather curious. Can you elaborate on the other discrepancies snowmman?

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Mr Nuke, or should I say record straighter outer,

Thanks for setting Snowmman straight, he is an amazing resource, but every now and then you have to let him know he is not Google.

No problem, that does seem to be my role around here lately though, doesn't it? I'm still glad we are able to straightened out that whole third officer episode with you.

[Ckret 0]

Thats right, I forgot that was you, great job helping with that, thanks for your input.

[snowmman 3]

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Mr Nuke, or should I say record straighter outer,

Thanks for setting Snowmman straight, he is an amazing resource, but every now and then you have to let him know he is not Google.

hah! it was just a test. The real story, obvious from the responses, is that Anderson was chosen because he had no useful testimony during the flight. Obviously you wouldn't put Rataczak or Scott on the re-enactment flight..they might reveal the Conspiracy.

The Conspiracy Lives!

obligatory star trek quote
"It's difficult to work in groups when you're omnipotent." (Q, "Deja Q")

I also want to work in a Leeroy Jenkins reference at some point, but was discouraged by the lack of recognition of previous obscure references...but on the up side, that means there's lots of potential progress!

[snowmman 3]

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Note there are a few other things in there that are kinda wrong from Scott too.

I'm not going to pay to read the article, but combined with the whole Himmelsbach retirement incident this is rather curious. Can you elaborate on the other discrepancies snowmman?

oh I posted most of the article above, there wasn't much.

Things I noted that were incorrect (or new)
1) Scott quoted Cooper as giving a much longer response at 2005 than just "No"...he has Cooper saying
"Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied.

2) Scott says the "tip" episode happened when Mucklow saw the huge pile of money. In other places we're told it's when Cooper was showing Mucklow how heavy the bag was...

The article implies Mucklow is looking at a big stack of money, when the "tip" thing happens...i.e.

After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack.

When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills.

"We can't take tips,'' she said.

3) The information about turbulence being the reason Scott tried to contact Cooper on the PA (for the apparent 2005 exchange) is new. I've never heard turbulence being the reason before. In fact, this turbulence thing is weird. We were told about a "curtsy" or adjustment of trim needed. We all thought this was caused by the stairs. But now we're hearing about air turbulence.

I'm inclined to believe Scott here. But it seems like new info to me. Thoughts on this?
She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence.

Scott wondered if Cooper was still aboard. Turning on the public address system, he inquired, ``Is everything all right, sir?''

``Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied.

After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly.

4) Scott seems to make it seem like he's flying the plane in this article? Did we ever settle that question?

5) The article references the "7 below" myth, without mentioning it's Celsius, but I think that was just the reporter erring.

6) The reporter says Cooper ordered Scott to drop the rear steps. I don't think that happened? I thought the stairs were lowerable from the back..so the cockpit didn't have to do anything?

7) The article says cooper asked for used $20 bills

8) the whole improvised waist pack story seems like Scott is saying some stuff that's not exactly correct.

[377 22]

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Why didn't Cooper bring his own rig? Would have saved LOTS of time and would have totally spoofed the cops who would have been expecting him to land with the plane somewhere. Once he asked for the chutes, it was clearly going to be a jump and run situation. I have put rigs in overhead racks back in the day. It was easy, just bag it and nobody knew what it was or showed any concern or interest.

377

REPLY> ... justwalks on the plane with a parachute
and says, "it's for my grandma. She always wanted one", or, "Im entering a parachuting contest in Seattle
and the prise is $200000 dollars"! . He could have pretended he was woman and pregannt?

Georger,

I always just put it in a canvas laundry bag and it drew ZERO attention as carry-on luggage. That's what I meant by "bag it". Cooper could have done the same thing IF he managed to obtain a jumpable chute without raising a lot of attention or leaving evidence trails.

Also, that canvas laundry bag with a drawstring would have made a decent money bag for the jump.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

"After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly."

Gauges? I think only one gauge would have been fluctuating: the cabin pressure gauge which is only on the flight engineer's panel as I recall. His eardrums would have felt it too and probably clued him way before reading any gauges.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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Also: Scott wasn't on the re-enactment of the pressure bump. Bill R. was? So I'm thinking there could be reasons why Bill R. wasn't listened to as much as Scott?

I believe it was Anderson who was on the re-enactment flight. If Scott was listened to anymore than the others it was probably to do with seniority more than anything.

REPLY**

Must be ESP, I was just thinking abt him. Here is Ckret's post about him in #2347 June 10 08.

"The BUMP. Second Officer Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of 305 the night of the hijacking, stated what was felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking."

Given the above its likely Anderson would confirm
Rat's statement about their position and seeing Portland.

Now... Scott is a curious person to me. Senior. Very
reticent. Aloof but engaged all at the same time.
Walzes into H's office years late with new opinions
about the flight path? Company man through and through so 'burn the slaves and let me have my retirement in peace' - we have a lot of those kinds around here and they are always wrong (but full of
opinions) about everything? So, I have never given Scott much credence, because ... he had little to say!

Its a puzzlement to me.

Lets keep track thatwe are older guys. These young guys sometimes dont have much tolerance for the
older slow silent types. (one of my sons says)

[snowmman 3]

It's extremely rare to find pictures of Anderson, and even more so to find a picture of Alice Hancock.

Here's a photo of the whole crew. It's from the Tosaw book.

[ltdiver 3]

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It's extremely rare to find pictures of Anderson, and even more so to find a picture of Alice Hancock.

Here's a photo of the whole crew. It's from the Tosaw book.

Can you say body language...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[georger 247]

I always just put it in a canvas laundry bag and it drew ZERO attention as carry-on luggage. That's what I meant by "bag it". Cooper could have done the same thing IF he managed to obtain a jumpable chute without raising a lot of attention or leaving evidence trails.

Also, that canvas laundry bag with a drawstring would have made a decent money bag for the jump.


REPLY>> All good points.

[377 22]

Gotta take into account the Captain as lord god of the airliner aspect. Respected, in charge, gives orders, doesn't take them from anyone in his plane... that is until Cooper comes aboard. Took many years to earn those stripes and now some jerk acts like he is a bus driver. Might not be real eager to relive those hours when someone else was in command of HIS plane.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Someone asked about the found shoe, I cannot find reference to it anywhere in the case file. That would have been a major find, considering there is nothing on it I am calling myth.

Somewhere in the back pages of this forum there was a post about a single shoe being found by a soldier who was part of an Army group searching for Cooper right after the hijack.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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The new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX.


REPLY & QUESTION>

See the 72 FBI LZ maps attached. Note the wind
vector lines A-B, H-P, O-R which define drift at the
various latitudes. Arent they going the wrong direction
vs the wind charts you found? It should be SE to NW,
not SW - NE as shown on the 72 maps ???

What am I missing!?

BTW I did a little gamma adjustment on this map
so its a bit easier to read - more B&W contrast.

George

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[377 22]

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Slugster,

I consider you my co-case agent and to have you come up with IPIN is somewhat lacking. I am known worldwide for bank robber nicknames (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003168951_nicknames02m.html) as such you must come up with something that has more "POP" than IPIN.

I think it's a good idea, lots of running room here, but we have to come up with somthing that catches the eye of pop culture. So, DZ folks, lets come up with an acronym for our "big toe" Sluggo (I love that movie).

Ckret,

You have the experience and reputation. You must give Sluggo his new acronym.

Just pretend he robbed a Seattle bank and you are looking at the video.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I had been led to believe that Tosaw's book had enough errors to be part of the mythology.

But now that I'm reading it, and confirming sections of it with things Ckret has said, I think it potentially has some interesting details that we could discuss. I was amazed when Ckret released the memo confirming the flaps were changed to 30 degrees. Tosaw says this also. Tosaw says that when the flaps were at 30, the speed went from 170 knots to 145 knots (167mph)

Has anyone else read Tosaw's book.? There are certain things in there that I'd like to clear up as myth or fact. If they are indeed fact, it would help us I think.

For instance, there is some detail about Cooper cursing. He said "Dammit" while the fuel trucks were stalling. Himmelsbach seems to have taken this to extremes. But now you can see what it was no big deal to the stewardesses. It wasn't heavy swearing.

There's some detail about Cooper opening and inspecting the chutes.
Some detail about him cinching the straps on the rig after he put it on.

here's an interesting one:
"Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, "Don't worry, I've got some pills that will keep them awake".

Would be nice to walk thru the interesting paragraphs and dissect them as true or not. From what I'm reading, I'm believing Tosaw. He interviewed people firsthand.

There's an interesting theory that Cooper may have specified flaps at 15 degrees because he could verify that from the windows. If he just specified an air speed, he wouldn't be able to verify that. Interesting theory.

I suspect "Paul Soderlind" was the good old Joe at Minneapolis Central that I've been wondering about?

[georger 247]

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It's extremely rare to find pictures of Anderson, and even more so to find a picture of Alice Hancock.

Here's a photo of the whole crew. It's from the Tosaw book.

Can you say body language...

ltdiver

REPLY> no kidding! looks like they dont want to be there in a big way ... I think they were under orders
from NWA through everything. Go back and look at
the CBS interview just after they had landed at Reno.
(on Youtube) Scott doesnt want to say anything and Tina keeps looking at Scott for clearance to say anything.

[snowmman 3]

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The new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX.


REPLY & QUESTION>

See the 72 FBI LZ maps attached. Note the wind
vector lines A-B, H-P, O-R which define drift at the
various latitudes. Arent they going the wrong direction
vs the wind charts you found? It should be SE to NW,
not SW - NE as shown on the 72 maps ???

What am I missing!?

BTW I did a little gamma adjustment on this map
so its a bit easier to read - more B&W contrast.

George

The wind direction was apparently different up by Lake Merwin.

We're still not in agreement about winds down by the new LZ. Ckret has posted some stuff about battleground but I'm not sure of it's accuracy?
I've posted surface wind stuff at PDX.
Sluggo says surface wind doesn't matter.

So we need to get in agreement on the winds at the new LZ and where the data came from. We've never agreed.

I know I believe in winds from the SE as most probable by the new DZ. I'd like to see the source of other's data.

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[georger 247]

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Gotta take into account the Captain as lord god of the airliner aspect. Respected, in charge, gives orders, doesn't take them from anyone in his plane... that is until Cooper comes aboard. Took many years to earn those stripes and now some jerk acts like he is a bus driver. Might not be real eager to relive those hours when someone else was in command of HIS plane.

EXACTLY RIGHT!!!

The last transcript Sluggo & Ckret posted reveals
they discussed getting rid of Cooper or trying to
render him ineffective.

It has always been on my mind that except for
Cooper's bomb they might have done something
to screw Cooper over, just as he was bailing..

We went through a discussion once of the single
entry "15,000" ... and discussion about oxygen
right around the same time in the transcript. Sluggo decided it was a typo ? That entry made me wonder if the crew was up to something...

[georger 247]

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Slugster,

I consider you my co-case agent and to have you come up with IPIN is somewhat lacking. I am known worldwide for bank robber nicknames (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003168951_nicknames02m.html) as such you must come up with something that has more "POP" than IPIN.

I think it's a good idea, lots of running room here, but we have to come up with somthing that catches the eye of pop culture. So, DZ folks, lets come up with an acronym for our "big toe" Sluggo (I love that movie).

Ckret,

You have the experience and reputation. You must give Sluggo his new acronym.

Just pretend he robbed a Seattle bank and you are looking at the video.

377

REPLY> I could suggest one but he probably wouldnt
like it: Capt. Kirk (as in Star Trek).

[snowmman 3]

From Tosaw's book, this was the contact in Minneapolis..he evidentally had opinions about the stairs on takeoff, and did calcs for the distance? with the flaps like Cooper wanted?

Paul A. Soderlind
1923 - 2001

He was apparently quite the expert.
Really great article here:
http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182945-1.html

nice pic of him attached (in the pilots seat? or what?)

summary details from other article:

Montana native Paul Soderlind received his private license on his 18th birthday. At age 19 he went to work for Northwest Airlines as an instrument instructor and flew in the Northern Region during World War II. He joined the Navy in 1944 and flew with Naval Air Transport Command.

Soderlind returned to Northwest after the war and developed many safety procedures. He eventually became director of technical flight operations, a unit that plans cockpit procedures. He and Don Sowa produced Northwest’s Turbulence Plot Program to detect wind shear and other high altitude turbulence.

[snowmman 3]

Dan Sowa, Northwest's Chief Meteorologist

From the Soderlind article. It's possible this could be the name that was redacted from the LZ prediction map that Sluggo got from Ckret, if the two guys were both at Northwest at the same time.

(edit) info from the article makes it sound like right time frame

"Paul and his partner, Northwest's Chief Meteorologist Dan Sowa, for the Turbulence Plot program they developed in 1965."

[AggieDave 6]

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here's an interesting one:
"Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, "Don't worry, I've got some pills that will keep them awake".

If true, then that is an interesting piece of information. That could easily show amphetamine use. So everything goes back to someone owing another a large sum of money. With out fail it seems like if someone uses amphetamines they have at least one other hard core drug they'll use. Things can compound quickly. Too bad Tina wasn't a DRE.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[377 22]

DRE?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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The new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX.


REPLY & QUESTION>

See the 72 FBI LZ maps attached. Note the wind
vector lines A-B, H-P, O-R which define drift at the
various latitudes. Arent they going the wrong direction
vs the wind charts you found? It should be SE to NW,
not SW - NE as shown on the 72 maps ???

What am I missing!?

BTW I did a little gamma adjustment on this map
so its a bit easier to read - more B&W contrast.

George

The wind direction was apparently different up by Lake Merwin.

We're still not in agreement about winds down by the new LZ. Ckret has posted some stuff about battleground but I'm not sure of it's accuracy?
I've posted surface wind stuff at PDX.
Sluggo says surface wind doesn't matter.

So we need to get in agreement on the winds at the new LZ and where the data came from. We've never agreed.

I know I believe in winds from the SE as most probable by the new DZ. I'd like to see the source of other's data.

REPLY> Hopfully we can get the winds down -

I was also mulling over 20:15.56 (below from Sluggo)
with respect to Rataczack.

"SEA CNTR advises Portland Altimeter (Corresponding Sea Level Barometric Pressure) is 30.03 inches of Hg. [This is important because it shows that at 20:15:56 they were very near Portland.]" _Sluggo website

I wonder what "very near" means.

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