DB Cooper

[377 22]

People come and go from this forum, but I really hope we can keep the holy trinity going. They constantly amaze me with new angles. I think Sluggo will be in for the long haul, I hope Snowmman and Georger will just take a break rather than a departure.

I was looking at Cooper stuff on the web and read that two long lost bodies were found during the initial search, which attests to some thoroughness. Still, a through search in the wrong place won't find Cooper or his rig.

I gotta find an online translation bot for Hebrew to English. I don't know what you guys are posting but recognize the language. Spent a lot of time in Israel when I worked in aerospace... thermal imaging related stuff.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

People come and go from this forum, but I really hope we can keep the holy trinity going. They constantly amaze me with new angles. I think Sluggo will be in for the long haul, I hope Snowmman and Georger will just take a break rather than a departure.
377

What he said... these guys have really added value.

don't worry about the hebrew, nothing of significance!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 245]

Quote

People come and go from this forum, but I really hope we can keep the holy trinity going. They constantly amaze me with new angles. I think Sluggo will be in for the long haul, I hope Snowmman and Georger will just take a break rather than a departure.

I was looking at Cooper stuff on the web and read that two long lost bodies were found during the initial search, which attests to some thoroughness. Still, a through search in the wrong place won't find Cooper or his rig.

I gotta find an online translation bot for Hebrew to English. I don't know what you guys are posting but recognize the language. Spent a lot of time in Israel when I worked in aerospace... thermal imaging related stuff.

377

Orange and I will have to work this out behind the scenes. After the photos were posed I was hoping
Snow would reply (I had a tip) , but alas he did not and is probably laughing at us.. its well deserved if he is and Im hoping he is enjoying life.

What I am a bit curious about is Snow's Magical
Search engine(s). As Ckret has noted, Snow is able
to focus in on things very quickly, with a wealth of
materials always. Now I suspect I know why!

I did appreciate Snow's participation, very much.
He was our center when Sluggo or Ckret are not here,
and I acknowledge that. I guess we carry on as best
we can and hope for the best. Hopfully Sluggo and Ckret will have some suggestions & guidance.

You do all realise, Snowmman did the workof three people! Damn, that will be impossible to replace
not mention liking the guy, "very much".

George

[georger 245]

Quote

Quote

People come and go from this forum, but I really hope we can keep the holy trinity going. They constantly amaze me with new angles. I think Sluggo will be in for the long haul, I hope Snowmman and Georger will just take a break rather than a departure.
377

What he said... these guys have really added value.

don't worry about the hebrew, nothing of significance!!

REPLY> Ok. To continue...

Someone bash me on the head if I am out of place here but,...

_ topics being discussed were: (a) years of dredging both sides of the Columbia that could affect Tina Bar. (b) what exactly were the wet years 71-80 and how may that apply to money at Tina Bar. With charts
and graphs previously shown I think we concluded
there were no outstandingly wet years, with 76-77
being the wetest? I have a new chart for 79-80
and will show that shortly

(c) other non-water scenarios for money arriving at
Tina Bar?

(d) The new DZ or LZ and exactly what did happen.
Sluggo wants "facts and only the facts" so we need
"facts"!

Sluggo brought up facts. He always brings up "facts"
which of course he should do. But, we take old facts
that were never connected and make new facts. We
try to find new facts. We try to make plausible scenarios which were rejected or missed before, all
based on a new interpretation of "the facts" (new or
old). And we challenge old facts if it turns out there
is substantial reason for doing so. I am sure Sluggo
can add or amend this ....... it goes without saying.

New ideas! Bring em forth.

Ok, now that I have made a total ass of myself let's
get going. If this is to be...

Thanks,
George.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

Orange and I will have to work this out behind the scenes. After the photos were posed I was hoping
Snow would reply (I had a tip) , but alas he did not and is probably laughing at us.. its well deserved if he is and Im hoping he is enjoying life.

What photos - I guess I missed whatever you are talking about.

Quote

What I am a bit curious about is Snow's Magical
Search engine(s). As Ckret has noted, Snow is able
to focus in on things very quickly, with a wealth of
materials always. Now I suspect I know why!

What do you suspect? - I know he kept asking me questions that I felt where out of line. He is either a writer, Cook, fbi profiler, psychologist or just someone with nothing more to do - I certainly felt it was more than just a passing interest in this crime or Cooper.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

I sent this email to Snowmman - maybe that ran him off:

"You will go back and see that I have referenced Ha Ha Ha many times and then someone else thought it was joke and used in their posts. It is not joke - it was published in 1983.

There are names in that book - the man it is dedicated to - I knew that name and the womans name -
It is a vague memory. It is broken up. As late as 1990 - a woman showed up at the shop - I swear that was her name, but just may be coincidental. Duane introduced this woman as some one he knew. I had work to do and never gave it a thought - went back to the debit. I trusted him never to run around on me so I didn't think it was that kind of friend - thought it might be someone in the antique business, but Duane was not that good and I got the impression she was there on business...I just happened to walk in. I never did ask a lot of questions about anything - just the kind of wife an ex-con living a secret life needed....Dumb Blonde."

Copyright©2008 by Jo Weber

Incidentally I am on the computer and the TV is on it is 3:39 Central time and there is a comedy on about DB Cooper. One of the serial old comedies ...sort of odd right.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

This is excerpts from another email I sent Snowmman about HA HA HA. Maybe he wrote the book?

Quote

"I appreciate what you said in the forum - nice to know someone thinks I am rational.

I was told in an email today that someone wrote a book and Duane's picture was in it. I know of no such book and emailed the person asking for information.
They have not replied.

NO ONE gets the HA HA HA by D.B. Cooper. Do they think I am making a joke or making it up?

The book was written in 1983 buy Signum Books Ltd. Editor Judi Van Cleave - strange thing is I may have met Judi Van Cleave at on time.

It was a first printing by the Daily Journal of Commerce, Portland, OR. "

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Edited for space:

"Snowmman,"

"When I mentioned that James Earl Ray sold foriegn Comics and Magazines at Jefferson - the Dan Cooper Comic was not mentioned again."

"You can find this in the writings of JJ Maloney...a former resident at Jefferson and a writer for a few newspapers - he was quiet good. He die a few months after I found him and was ill for sometime (cancer) so we never got to talk. I really felt bad about missing that opportunity. "

"He really touched on prison life in his writing with an insite only someone who has been there and done that can do. "

"Another little treat - remember that Duane ALWAYS asked for row 17 and 18 everytime we flew."

deleted paragraph about the oxygen.

deleted paragraph about trip to islands.

"Over 12000 the cabin has to be pressurized and oxygen used. Dumb, Question for you to ask: if they truly went to 12000 - the cabin would have needed oxygen.
Would or Could the pilots have been trying to get him sleepy. Is it possible for this to be done."

(Note that he did indeed address this question and there was a discussion about it.)

Deleted several paragraphs regarding oxygen and the questions I did not feel I could ask in the forum at that time

"By the way speaking of mental issues - when you first came to the forum - I thought you WERE crazy and angry and someone just looking for trouble. So remember that when you think I have issues.
We all do, but it doesn't mean the person is dislusional. There is a very strong line between - being upset or mad versus being mental ill or having the type of issues you and others seem to think I do."

"Fortunately they are wrong. I am a well balanced person - I have just been personally involved in my struggle with the FBI's lack-day-cial...investigation in the early yrs when there were witnesses alive they could talk to...who would have told them the same things I told the FBI."

I thought you guys might be interested in some of this, because I think after I have made some reviews of things I have stated over and over that I will also be making at least a temporary leave from the forum so that I can concentrate on what I have to do to prepare for my trip to WA.

Any suggestion anyone can make for this trip will be appreciated.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 245]

Quote

Edited for space:

"Snowmman,"

"When I mentioned that James Earl Ray sold foriegn Comics and Magazines at Jefferson - the Dan Cooper Comic was not mentioned again."

"You can find this in the writings of JJ Maloney...a former resident at Jefferson and a writer for a few newspapers - he was quiet good. He die a few months after I found him and was ill for sometime (cancer) so we never got to talk. I really felt bad about missing that opportunity. "

"He really touched on prison life in his writing with an insite only someone who has been there and done that can do. "

"Another little treat - remember that Duane ALWAYS asked for row 17 and 18 everytime we flew."

deleted paragraph about the oxygen.

deleted paragraph about trip to islands.

"Over 12000 the cabin has to be pressurized and oxygen used. Dumb, Question for you to ask: if they truly went to 12000 - the cabin would have needed oxygen.
Would or Could the pilots have been trying to get him sleepy. Is it possible for this to be done."

(Note that he did indeed address this question and there was a discussion about it.)

Deleted several paragraphs regarding oxygen and the questions I did not feel I could ask in the forum at that time

"By the way speaking of mental issues - when you first came to the forum - I thought you WERE crazy and angry and someone just looking for trouble. So remember that when you think I have issues.
We all do, but it doesn't mean the person is dislusional. There is a very strong line between - being upset or mad versus being mental ill or having the type of issues you and others seem to think I do."

"Fortunately they are wrong. I am a well balanced person - I have just been personally involved in my struggle with the FBI's lack-day-cial...investigation in the early yrs when there were witnesses alive they could talk to...who would have told them the same things I told the FBI."

I thought you guys might be interested in some of this, because I think after I have made some reviews of things I have stated over and over that I will also be making at least a temporary leave from the forum so that I can concentrate on what I have to do to prepare for my trip to WA.

Any suggestion anyone can make for this trip will be appreciated.

REPLY> Well Jo, hmmm, what do I say - several
things perhaps from my perspective.

I am sure a lot goes on in the background. Email between people and such. I try to stay out of that
and keep my cards on the table. I know there are
some with a large personal investment in this. I am
not sure why this became so important to you. That
is something only you could answer.

I could observe that some people are interested in
this for all the wrong reasons, while others tend to
have a more objective interest? Anything carried to
excess is not good, and you know that. And everyone
here has their own objectives.

There are some things in life you have no control
over and must let pass. And pulling away from a thing
sometimes let's it resolve itself.

That is the best advice I can give. It's nobody's
business but yours.

Georger

[georger 245]

I will also say this ...

Clear back in 1972-73a person at Vancouver
said: 'This will take years to solve, if it ever gets
solved, because there are just too many vested
interests involved on all sides, and this has become
a public circus'.

She went on to say: 'Ive never seen somethig that
has so many ego's and personal reputations working
against each other. They don't even know where this
Cooper jumped out! They were probably too busy
arguing over details and making phone calls. There
are company people and FBI people and law people
and every Tom, Dick, and Harry working for a different
newspaper involved in this - each with a different story.'

'I think it was somebody inside, somebody small,
somebody very angry who had had enough of the
(redacted) and he suspected once he started the
ball rolling he could just slip out the back and people
would spend so much time arguing with each other,
he would get away and never be found. I don't think
he will ever be found because I think there are people
who don't want him found in order to keep their own
dirty laundry from being exposed'.

'This is somebody who knew what he was doing and
knew how the system works. He thought he could slip
out the back door and never be found. I think somebody knows who it was and they are going to let him go in order to protect themselves.'

'That is how the system works and everyone knows it.
There will be people jump out and say its not that way
at all, but from Cooper's perspective that is exactly
how it is or he would never have done this.'


That was one observer's position on the Cooper case
written in 1972-73.

Georger

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Clear back in 1972-73 a person at Vancouver said: 'This will take years to solve, if it ever gets solved, because there are just too many vested interests involved on all sides, and this has become a public circus.

This is true even today and I agree with everything she said - I wish I knew who she was and if she was still living - this would be someone I would love to talk to when I go to WA. I am not going out there to Prove Duane was Cooper, but to satisfy myself regarding what I remember of my trip to WA and see if it will bring back any memories that might help me bring an end to this. Otherwise it is a trip to end this long journey - I might need a shoulder to cry on because regardless of what I find or discover - I have to end my search for the truth.
++++++++++++++++++

Quote

She said: I've never seen something that has so many ego's and personal reputations working against each other. There are company people and FBI people and law people and every Tom, Dick, and Harry working for a different newspaper involved in this - each with a different story.

This is still true at this very moment. I am probably the only one who wants nothing more than to find the truth - and then walk away. Those who wish only to increase their personal wealth and are seeking to make a name for themselves - I regard as vultures.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Quote

I don't think he will ever be found because I think there are people who don't want him found in order to keep their own dirty laundry from being exposed'.

I expected this when I did my first searched into Duane's past. The VA could not ACCESS Duane's military service - I was refused any information other than his serial number, birthdate and dates of service. Everything else was restricted - Access denied. I was told by a high ranking official that ex-cons where used for covert actions from 1962 - 1970. This official was suddenly not available after he provided me with phone number that was not monitored. I am told he was no longer there in a third call. A few yrs later I tried one more time - he didn't remember the incident and told me I must have the wrong person. Later this person's name appears in Washington, DC. I have not been able to find out if they are the same person. This happened over a 12 yr period of time.
++++++++++++++++

Quote

I think somebody knows who it was and they are going to let him go in order to protect themselves. That is how the system works and everyone knows it.

I have said the same thing over and over, but she said it better than I could ever have. The thing is that I have experienced the cover-up first hand in my search regarding Duane's past.
+++++++++++++++++

Quote

from Cooper's perspective that is exactly how it is or he would never have done this.

This quote makes me feel this person had a vested interest in Cooper - that perhaps she knew him personally. It is now 2008 - 37yrs later and I know that what she said is the truth. It is what my own desperate search revealed and my knowledge of the man who was DB Cooper.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

"I don't think he will ever be found because I think there are people who don't want him found in order to keep their own dirty laundry from being exposed".

This is what a woman wrote in 1971 or 1972. My experience with the VA is exactly why I have said almost the same thing before.

The VA was one of the places I first went for information on Duane.
All they gave me is what I already had - name, birth, serial number and order of discharge and discharge date - but the army had NO discharge date.

Navy was Bad Conduct.

What transpired in the VA office was ODD. After the man pulled up Duane's name and number - he said he couldn't give me any information because I was not listed as a beneficiary - I told him that I was only 3 yrs old at the time and I did not marry Duane until 1978. He did something else on the computer and then asked me to excuse him he was going to have to get a code from his Superior.

While he was gone I looked at his screen - ACCESS DENIED.

After he comes back he goes into his computer again and then says I will have to fill out some papers to get my husbands records - the papers I filled out only provided me the very information I already had.

I am adamant about needing his records and relay what he told me when he died. The man leaves the office again.

I had inquired about his service records and work details and training. This was again Access Denied - and other words that should not be there - I will have to go to my notes to remember exactly what they were - this was so long ago that my memory is fuzzy on it...I am pretty sure of what it said, but I would hate to state it and then find out that wasn't it.

I also enquired about John C. Collins and with the discharge paper I had for John C. Collins.
He told me it looked like a forgery and I had been told this before - it was just a small card with VA papers reduce to card size.

So - I got no where.

There is another thing I did regarding his military background - with phone calls. One story I was told by a Lt. Colonel was what started the conspiracy theory in the first place - and that there are things that happened and answers I will never get. I won't go into this incident and 2 other incidents involving the same person - but, I backed away from this after the 3rd attempt.

Yrs. later this man's name came up in the media??????? I cannot say in regards to what as I am not sure they are the same person - but the same name. When I read the name I was startled and went back to my old file and sure enough it was the same. Since this was in regard to Washington DC I just let that part go - knowing I would never know the truth that way.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Guys, I hope this thread will still be open when I return from WA in October. Try to keep it open and at that time I will either have something new or I will be putting the Cooper files in storage or just give them to someone.

October will either open up more doors or close them forever.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 245]

Been browsing poking around. Guess its dead here.
By agreement nobody bothered to informus about?
Found one guy (DB Cater) who posted on City-Data.com
as follows:


[to all who seek D B COOPER.i was boatn with friends on the columb.river when i was younger and we stopd on a island and i walkd back in the woods and saw a parachute hangn from a old bare tree . didnt go to it because my friends dad yelld that it was time to go ...then years later i learnd about the db cooper thing..cant help to wonder~~~ cool.]

George

[377 22]

Seems to me a canopy hanging from a tree would have been spotted from the air. Also, sounds implausible... the kids would have mentioned it to the adults who would have been interested in investigating further.

Are there islands that are large enough to have backwoods that could have a treed chute and not have it visible from the beach? If so which ones? Are they within the likely Cooper landing area?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Most of the money photos we've analyzed were taken 28 years after the find. And after the money has been separated from the bundles.
Ckret could probably provide us photos that the FBI took in Feb 1980 of the bundles, but this post summarizes all we have so far.

I initially thought the nymag photo was faked, since the money was so different than what I had seen before. But I've since validated it. You can see a known good serial: H27412938A, plus the 12 bundle layout matches the known ingram+himmelsbach fbi photo taken 2/12/80.

So the bundle pictures were taken Feb 12, 1980, two days after the Ingram find on Feb 10. It was taken at FBI hq, when the money was laid out. We've seen the other photo with the Ingrams and Himmelsbach standing around the 12 bundles.

This photo led the nymag christiansen article, and is in the Corbis archives.

The Ingrams took the 3 found bundles and brought them home in a plastic bread bag. They separated them into 12 bundles in their kitchen and dried them. They may have washed them off, since there is no sand visible, and the bundles were wet when found.

In the second picture there is a closeup where on the left you can see the brittle edges on one bundle. This is new and we should ponder it.

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table.

We don't know if the Ingrams might have broke off all brittle edges before they delivered them to the FBI. (washing?) or if the brittle edges were all missing as shown, on the beach.

Since at least one edge of one bundle still has the brittle edges, I'm thinking that more did, and they broke off in handling before the FBI got them.

Also notice the relative flatness of the bundles.

The 3rd photo is from AP, and is a top shot of the same layout of 12 bundles. Not as good a photo.

The 4th photo is a new photo of the Tena Bar dig site. You can see that the dig was not a very controlled operation. Notice the backhoe. This is a new photo.

I've also included the two more "genteel" photos of the dig we've seen before. I think these were before the backhoe came in.

I've also included a topo map from 1975 that we've seen before. But you can see a small inlet cut into the shore just above the money find, that's not present in more curren maps. I think this little inlet is visible in the money dig photo where you can look North. I was always curious about that and was wondering if we have the money find site wrong.

I've been trying to use what appears to be the river beacon in one of the tina bar dig photos, to more precisely locate the money find on the topo map, along with making sure it looks like the shoreline going N on the topo map from 1975.

I have two questions:
1) There were two trenches dug at Tena Bar. Why?
2) There were reports, including a Himmelsbach quote of additional fragments recovered during the dig. If so, how deep were they?

(edit) I've added an already shown picture of the professor in the trench. You can see he's also on the right of the backhoe photo.

(edit) I would also note that the dig photos seem to not agree with any current description from Brian, as being in an area that was "recently wet". Although that's from a recent Ckret interview, I think the photos say that's not true. The find seems to have been on the sloped bank. Ckret can provide info from 1980, maybe. But I'm not sure we should believe the recent Ingram interview?

[1969912 0]

Seattle times article. File under "Bizarre" (like almost everything else):

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2008053882_danny16.html

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 245]

Quick reply> yours thoughts are mine exactly.

A find like he reports would have gone straight to
somebody! The area of the Columbia is not like
dense forests of the Amazon!

[georger 245]

Quote

Most of the money photos we've analyzed were taken 28 years after the find. And after the money has been separated from the bundles.
Ckret could probably provide us photos that the FBI took in Feb 1980 of the bundles, but this post summarizes all we have so far.

I initially thought the nymag photo was faked, since the money was so different than what I had seen before. But I've since validated it. You can see a known good serial: H27412938A, plus the 12 bundle layout matches the known ingram+himmelsbach fbi photo taken 2/12/80.

So the bundle pictures were taken Feb 12, 1980, two days after the Ingram find on Feb 10. It was taken at FBI hq, when the money was laid out. We've seen the other photo with the Ingrams and Himmelsbach standing around the 12 bundles.

This photo led the nymag christiansen article, and is in the Corbis archives.

The Ingrams took the 3 found bundles and brought them home in a plastic bread bag. They separated them into 12 bundles in their kitchen and dried them. They may have washed them off, since there is no sand visible, and the bundles were wet when found.

In the second picture there is a closeup where on the left you can see the brittle edges on one bundle. This is new and we should ponder it.

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table.

We don't know if the Ingrams might have broke off all brittle edges before they delivered them to the FBI. (washing?) or if the brittle edges were all missing as shown, on the beach.

Since at least one edge of one bundle still has the brittle edges, I'm thinking that more did, and they broke off in handling before the FBI got them.

Also notice the relative flatness of the bundles.

The 3rd photo is from AP, and is a top shot of the same layout of 12 bundles. Not as good a photo.

The 4th photo is a new photo of the Tena Bar dig site. You can see that the dig was not a very controlled operation. Notice the backhoe. This is a new photo.

I've also included the two more "genteel" photos of the dig we've seen before. I think these were before the backhoe came in.

I've also included a topo map from 1975 that we've seen before. But you can see a small inlet cut into the shore just above the money find, that's not present in more curren maps. I think this little inlet is visible in the money dig photo where you can look North. I was always curious about that and was wondering if we have the money find site wrong.

I've been trying to use what appears to be the river beacon in one of the tina bar dig photos, to more precisely locate the money find on the topo map, along with making sure it looks like the shoreline going N on the topo map from 1975.

I have two questions:
1) There were two trenches dug at Tena Bar. Why?
2) There were reports, including a Himmelsbach quote of additional fragments recovered during the dig. If so, how deep were they?

(edit) I've added an already shown picture of the professor in the trench. You can see he's also on the right of the backhoe photo.

(edit) I would also note that the dig photos seem to not agree with any current description from Brian, as being in an area that was "recently wet". Although that's from a recent Ckret interview, I think the photos say that's not true. The find seems to have been on the sloped bank. Ckret can provide info from 1980, maybe. But I'm not sure we should believe the recent Ingram interview?

REPLY> Glad you are back - have no idea!

Good questions all. I also tried to locate early maps of
T Bar area but without any success. They would be available from the USGS but Im not going to spend the rest of my life looking for them.

I sent two paper & currency experts an email; people
I had already talked to earlier (as per earlier posts).
Things got shut down here due to the floods - it is chaos here. So hearing nothing for weeks I finally just talked to the secretary for one of the men and Im hoping to have something soon.

Any further photos you can come up with of T-Bar money would be helpful. Without a doubt, when T Bar
was dug they would have found further fragments.
I hope they documented their dig!

George

[georger 245]

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table.

REPLY> Its a sign of equal deterioration from equal
exposure on all sides (inward) - the same from above
and below which means - no protective bag for some
time.




Also notice the relative flatness of the bundles.

REPLY> This caught my attention immediately. Its
compression from weight of the soil above. The weight
of the soil above and around the bundles held them
together.. if there were more bundles which had rotted
on any side of the bundles found, the soil at those locations would be chemically ripe and show up in tests
(which were not done - no soil samples were saved evidently)

The auction house also noted the compression of these bills from weight above. The tech at the auction
house said the bills were so compressed she had a very difficult time separating some of them and in fact
later afforts to separate fragments lead to finding 36?
more bills than previously known. This indicates the
bundles found were larger in extent at some time.

Didnt you try and email this auction house to get
details? I thought you did?

George

[georger 245]

I will say one more thing here quickly -

The techniques used to excavate at T Bar are shown
in your photo attached here -

Bulldozer. Shovels. Rakes. They did use a screen but the guy working the screen is looking for LARGE fragments with a rake, like you would use looking for potsherds.

It was a quick and dirty operation by all accounts.

Conclusion: They dont have the faintest idea how much money was originally at the site because they didnt use any of the techniques needed to determine that. They just assumed what was obvious was all that
was ever there, and moved on. What was found could be the final remnant of what was originally 'all of the money' !

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I will say one more thing here quickly -

The techniques used to excavate at T Bar are shown
in your photo attached here -

Bulldozer. Shovels. Rakes. They did use a screen but the guy working the screen is looking for LARGE fragments with a rake, like you would use looking for potsherds.

It was a quick and dirty operation by all accounts.

Conclusion: They dont have the faintest idea how much money was originally at the site because they didnt use any of the techniques needed to determine that. They just assumed what was obvious was all that
was ever there, and moved on. What was found could be the final remnant of what was originally 'all of the money' !

I would also note, that in terms of today's evidence handling, the scene on 2/12/80 at fbi hq was kind of odd.

Himmelsbach apparently laid out the found money for the press on 2/12/80, immediately after the FBI received it? Although there is plastic on the table, note no one is wearing gloves (although it's a bit late I suppose because of the Ingram handling)

In my mind, it tends to confirm the mindset around the handling of the dig. They really weren't looking for evidence. The case was basically already closed by this point.

A key new question I have, is when the bills got rounded off? I had always assumed the edges decomposed to nothing before the find. Now I'm thinking they went brittle, and broke off on handling. However if they were mostly rounded already when the Ingrams found them, that would be interesting.

So I'm kind of thinking that ALL of the decomposition happened at the find site.

There's also quite a number of academic studies online about cellulose decomposition in various soils and sand. I've noticed they use cotton strips to measure the rate at which microbes decompose things. (they're mostly interested in fertility of the soil). As expected, warmth and moisture accelerate decomposition.

I'm wondering if there is no such thing a "wet" decomposition, unless you're talking about something falling apart. The "wet" simply accelerates microbial action. "dry" would be similar, just slower?

I'm wondering if all of the decomposition could have happened in just 1 year at that wet location, with brittle edges removed by Ingram handling. Also, some of the staining could have happened post-find.

If you look at the brittle edges on that one bundle (previous post)..it's unclear how those edges would be preserved, yet the others get rounded, if there was decomposition and movement of the bundles by water.
I would think they all would be rounded if that happened.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table.

REPLY> Its a sign of equal deterioration from equal
exposure on all sides (inward) - the same from above
and below which means - no protective bag for some
time.

Yes. Looking at the Corbis photo that has 12 bundles.
We see 11 with face pictures, one with a visible back.
(also: the top view AP photo helps a little for judging the relative whiteness of some of the tops..not all 12 bundles in that photo though)

Since the bundles were split from the original 3, we should only see 3 face pictures that are "darker" or more weathered than the others.

The two bundles on the right seem darker, more weathered, and may be tops of the original bundles. So maybe those can be used for estimating the deterioration from the original top. The rest of the tops seem whiter and probably were interior to the original 3 bundles.

Also: there is a rumor/myth that of the 3 bundles, 2 were in rubber bands, and the third was thinner with no rubber band. I think Ckret has said all 3 had rubber bands. Be nice to clear up this myth.

Also: Since the auction house has pieced together new bills, we should increase the count of actual bills found? Since we know the bundles were random sized, I don't know if that helps us though.

[georger 245]

Quote

Quote

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table.

REPLY> Its a sign of equal deterioration from equal
exposure on all sides (inward) - the same from above
and below which means - no protective bag for some
time.

Yes. Looking at the Corbis photo that has 12 bundles.
We see 11 with face pictures, one with a visible back.
(also: the top view AP photo helps a little for judging the relative whiteness of some of the tops..not all 12 bundles in that photo though)

Since the bundles were split from the original 3, we should only see 3 face pictures that are "darker" or more weathered than the others.

The two bundles on the right seem darker, more weathered, and may be tops of the original bundles. So maybe those can be used for estimating the deterioration from the original top. The rest of the tops seem whiter and probably were interior to the original 3 bundles.

Also: there is a rumor/myth that of the 3 bundles, 2 were in rubber bands, and the third was thinner with no rubber band. I think Ckret has said all 3 had rubber bands. Be nice to clear up this myth.

Also: Since the auction house has pieced together new bills, we should increase the count of actual bills found? Since we know the bundles were random sized, I don't know if that helps us though.

REPLY> will find and post tonight - its a madhouse here.
The auction co has pieced together 35+ ?? new serial
numbers not previously counted and they are still
working. Without any question there was a LOT more
than the $5800 advertised by the media, at the T Bar. That is now fully established fact, just for starters.

Please pull links to deterioration pdf's you find and
post them here? You have far better searche enginer
than I do, and it is appreciated.

George

[snowmman 3]

Our understanding of the behavior of buried money seems pretty limited.

Here's a newspaper article that speaks to direct experience for wet money in a pvc pipe without ends, buried. It sticks together and is hard to separate.

These were buried for only (edit) only a matter of weeks?

So the stick-togetherness of the Ingram bundles, I think doesn't tell us anything.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-11462096_ITM


A little money advice: Don't bury it in your back yard.
Source: Sarasota Herald Tribune
Publication Date: 18-FEB-01

[snip]

The next lesson comes from my own family's story: If you do bury it, make sure it's in a watertight container.

Yes, my father once buried more than $30,000 in the back yard. We all learned what a mistake that was.

My dad and his business partner buried the money to hide it from his partner's soon-to-be ex-wife. They figured she didn't deserve the profits of their hard work, and instead of letting a judge decide, they took matters, and a shovel, into their own hands.

In 1999 they stuffed $100 bills into some PVC pipe and buried it in the back yard.

It was just before Hurricane Floyd hit our corner of Virginia, dumping more than 2 feet of rain and causing floods that lasted for weeks, covering the rooftops of some low-lying homes.

A few weeks after the rains finally subsided, my dad and his buddy went to check on their money. They hadn't put a lid on either end of the pipe, meaning that for weeks sand, water and gravel -- the perfect cement mix -- had run through that money.

By the time they got it out of the pipe, there was no way to pull the money apart. My stepmother tried everything. She washed it in the sink, peeling back layer after layer of the bills only to have them crumble in her hands.

She even tried nuking it in the microwave -- a trick my father had heard about. What he didn't know was that every bill has a little bit of metal in it, so sparks flew through the microwave, and the family was out a microwave, too.

For days my stepmother, my teen-age sisters and I sat around the table trying to salvage what we could of that money. We pulled it apart, wrote down serial numbers from the bills and brought some of the damaged money to the bank, where it was replaced with fresh new bills.

We were able to salvage a third of the money. It's about all my dad would have gotten had the ex-wife gotten her share.

Instead, he had to split that one-third -- with his partner and the ex-wife.