DB Cooper

[377 22]

Quote

- Battery "like flashlight battery, but about 6" high and as big around as my arm". [Ed. this seems to resolve our debate about the text in the other transcript ..lite vs flashlight battery?]

Sounds like the same type of battery that was used in a airliner bomb that was featured in the FBI story movie. It was the type I used as a kid for a power source for glow plugs on small gas engined model airplanes: carbon zinc dry cell, about as thick as an arm, about half a foot high and two screw terminals on top. You used them only during starting, lasted for several years of starts.

Here is a picture of a similar battery. Not common, hard to find, might give clues about Cooper... did he fly RC planes?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

This is visible in the Corbis photo from 2/12/80 but I've
included the top view AP photo because it's more visible.

The bills in the 2nd bundle down from top left, have shifted. They're not in an aligned stack.

We know because of the wet, that the bills should have all stuck together. It's surprising they were even able to separate the 3 bundles into 12.

But the shifting could not have happened while the bills were wet. It must have happened while they were dry?
It's hard to believe the individual bills dried out enough to shift like that. My guess is that the bills shifted before they got wet.

I think this shifting theory is important. It might support a plant theory?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately. (Yeah, I know that’s dangerous.)

After I posted THIS and almost killed the thread, Sugar and I had a long, laborious, involved, passionate and (sometimes) hostile discussion about the terms; “Truth” and “Fact”.

The discussion went on and on about subjective assessment and objective assessment, methods of validation, perception, reality, and whether or not a lie can still be the truth. The end result was… zilch… nada… nothing… no resolution. But, I did take something away from the exercise. I discovered that “we” (the posters on this board who are serious about the NORJAK case and are attempting to help solve it) fall into three (3) categories.

Category #1 – Those who use the publically available “work product” from Law Enforcement Agencies (LE) (the FBI being the most common, because it has always been the lead agency) to attempt to make some sense of the information and solve the crime. These people take this information as XXXXX (Fill in the word that suits you), and can be said to be “investigating the crime . [You didn’t really think I would go there (use the words) did you?]

Category #2 – Those who use the masses of information from popular sources on the web and elsewhere (including LE “work product”) to attempt to make some sense of the information and solve the crime. These people have the extra burden of comparing the contradictory information and making a decision as to which information is XXXXX (Fill in the word that suits you). These people can be said to be “investigating the investigation of the crime”.

Category #3 – Those people who drift in and out of Category #1 and Category #2. These people take on the burdens of both the previous categories and spend a lot of there time and energy trying to justify to themselves (and others) why they considered a particular issue XXXXX (Fill in the word that suits you). The stimulus for drifting between categories is usually a response to someone else’s determinations. These people are probably the brightest, most energetic, and most versatile (technologically) of our group. These people can be said to be "investigating the data available about the crime”.

I am not being judgmental here. Everyone has a personality and their personality determines which group they are in. We need all types of investigators, each contributing in his/her own way.

I think I have been a “Category #3 Investigator” in the past. I think I will (try to) abandon that MO and become a “Category #1 Investigator”. The reason? I have come to realize that I have spent too much of my energy in “reactive mode”. Categories #1 and #2 are much more “proactive mode” endeavors. So, Ckret better be aware that I am going to bug him ceaselessly for information derived from FBI work product. Not because I think it is the XXXXX or contains XXXXX, but because it is a place to start and remain proactive and focused.

So…. What category of investigator are you? (Ckret need not answer, he better be a Cat 1.) Why do you gravitate to that style?

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Good post Sluggo.
I know what I am. I think all problems are people problems.
Data is easy. Data is just the currency for attacking the people problems..Hey reminds me..Cooper evidently used the phrase "negotiable currency"...interesting. Big words.

I actually don't care a lot about the case resolution, because it's structured so that the only way it will be solved is by meteor strike..i.e. some random event presents the answer. There is no way intelligent human behavior by non-Cooper related parties will affect it's resolution.

I don't care about the FBI, because Ckret is a contradiction. He's said he's not doing any new investigation, and just releasing info, but he's not releasing info, he's pretending he still has a shot at finding and convicting Cooper. So there's no reason to kiss Ckret's butt.

So my curiosity extends more to history, FBI operations (hey I fund them!), current FBI practices and why the country embraces/wants them (I have a strong belief the country has a bit of a '70s feel right now).

We have an attorney general testifying before Congress about how he thinks waterboarding was useful.

So I'm probably in category 4. I embrace the sheer lunacy of it all. It's kind of just a mind rush. Like I said, legal LSD.

[377 22]

Quote

edit) updated to mention of "folk hero" within a week.

newspaper article from nov 29, 1971 was already mentioning "folk hero" status.

Remember the SLA (kidnapped Patricia Hearst)? They were hiding out in South Central LA during an intense nationwide manhunt in the 70s and nobody turned them in. Surely some neighbors must have suspected who they were.

I wonder if there were people who knew for sure or had strong suspicions who Cooper was but didn't turn him in?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Sluggo: I have been unable to find the information you are said to have posted on the LZ - did you publilsh it and how do I get it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 245]

Quote

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AES/Dynamite.shtml

more dynamite pics. Two attached. (brown wrappers) Interesting they mention "common" size of 8"x1-1/4". So maybe it all does say "pretty unlikely" that Cooper had dynamite.

if indeed Cooper had flares, it's interesting they were small ones. I wonder if maybe they were some other kind of flares. but like I said, could have been 5 or 10 minute flares.

I was also wondering "why red wire?" I guess nothing can be gleaned from that, random? But it's not black, white or green. (other common).

Too bad we don't know if Tina saw anything else in the briefcase.

Most of the railroad flares I remember as a kid were
about the size Tina described. Fire engine Red or
slightly darker with printing on the
sides explaining how to STRIKE them. But, all flares have a hard knob on one end - the strike or striker.
The strikes might have been hard to see in a container. And the striker end is too hard to pass
a wire through without making a hole first. I know -
we tried as kids!

[snowmman 3]

georger:
The strikers could have been removed (paper) and the little hard drop of chemical paste at the top (strike area) could have been removed too.

(edit) It's interesting Cooper chose 8. He could have fit more in his briefcase. Did he know that 8 was about right to scare experts? Why not 4, or 12? Was it just random?

I've been reading up on blasting caps. I'm not going to post too much detail otherwise I'll probably be on the next rendition flight.

But it got me wondering about why we all assumed Cooper's bomb was fake.

Blasting caps depend on current. V=IR for determining the voltage you need. The R is specified for blasting caps. ...so the short answer seems to be that for a reliable use of a blasting cap, you'd want 3V. A 6V battery might have actually shown some training, based on some typical examples I've seen in manual.

What amazes me, is that I don't think many people have thought through why they would think the bomb was fake or real. Maybe because no detonation switch?

The small size "flares" say to me could be either real or fake.

So: I'm willing to agree that the probable single #6 cell means "fake"...But I'm more surprised by the general impression everyone had here, I guess based on Cooper's actions, that the bomb was fake..kind of the ready rush to judgement.

Cini had real dynamite right? and he was a flake apparently?

Is it that we somehow want Cooper to be an ignoramus?

But maybe the choice of a large dry cell, actually was trying to convey some intelligence. I'm wondering if bomb experts that night, heard the description of the battery size, and thought "Hmm..could be real bomb"...

Maybe even the choice of smaller size flares, rather than the more typical longer ones.

My main point: his bomb was "close" enough to real, that experts on the radio wouldn't be able to confidently say "no way"

Here's a court case about a guy with a bomb in '69 in Eugene, OR, using Dupont Logger's dynamite. OR/WA, with logging, apparently dynamite could have been relatively common. Would we change our views if Cooper actually had a real bomb? I'm still curious about whether Cooper taped his "flares" together. This guy used copper wire to bind.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/448/448.F2d.892.26481.html
(appeal)

448 F2d 892

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff and Appellee,
v.
Richard J. OBA, Defendant and Appellant.
No. 26481.

United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.
August 23, 1971.

Rehearing Denied September 29, 1971.

Barnes Ellis (argued), Portland, Or., for defendant-appellant.

Michael Abbell (argued), Dept. of Justice, Washington, D. C., Sidney I. Lezak, U. S. Atty., Charles Turner, Asst. U. S. Atty., Portland, Or., for plaintiff-appellee.

Before BROWNING and CARTER, Circuit Judges, and BYRNE,* District Judge.

WILLIAM M. BYRNE, District Judge:

This is an appeal by appellant Oba from his conviction upon a plea of guilty to Counts One and Two of an indictment charging him with possessing an unlawfully made firearm and with unlawfully transferring the same firearm in violations of 26 U.S.C. § 5861(c) and (e), respectively. At the time of pleading guilty, Oba retained, with permission of the Court, two legal questions for appeal, viz., (1) Did the indictment fail to state facts sufficient to constitute an offense, and (2) Would the National Firearms Act, as applied to him, force him to incriminate himself as to future acts.

On appeal, appellant contends that the object described in the indictment ("seven sticks of dynamite wrapped with copper wire and equipped with a length of black dynamite fuse, together with dynamite caps * * *") does not come within the definition of "destructive device" found in 26 U.S.C. § 5845 (f).1 The thrust of appellant's argument is that the object is, intrinsically, not a weapon and that it can only be labelled a "destructive device" if that is the ultimate subjective intent of the possessor or transferor.
...

Here in his guilty plea appellant admitted that the device consisted of seven sticks of dynamite wrapped in copper wire and equipped with fuse and blasting caps.2 He stated that his intent was to dynamite the City of Eugene, Oregon and admitted that the purpose of the device was to bomb and destroy the property of others. He also stated that in Eugene, Oregon, in May of 1969, he transferred the device to one Robert Caufield with instructions to detonate it on certain premises in Eugene, Oregon. In sum, that the said object was a "destructive device" as defined in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f) is beyond controversy.

[dyslexic_jim 0]

The definition of insanity is to repeat the same thought process over and over again, yet expecting different results for some irrational reason.

If DB jumped into a heavily wooded area, a canopy in the trees would have been found decades ago. I doubt ole DB could have pulled off getting his canopy out of a 40 foot sapling. Perhaps he didn't pull at all (some suggest), and made a tasty treat for the local wildlife. That may be the best answer yet.

Keep looking in the woods my friends.......you will be special, and find what no one else has, for no reason at all.

Did they bring dogs onto that airplane in RNO? No, lets talk about a rust stain on some money, and a parachute harness buckle. Do you know what they are made of? Do they corrode in that fashion? Do they "rust?"

Continue your circle jerk, I'm perverted enough to enjoy the show.

"Man could die eatin nothing but rabbit." - Patrick Foley

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Continue your circle jerk, I'm perverted enough to enjoy the show.

The most important thing about a circle jerk, is announcing a time because everyone has to be there simultaneously. This is not a circle jerk because we don't need simultaneity. It's more like mutual self-masturbation.
Still good.

[nigel99 482]

Quote

The definition of insanity is to repeat the same thought process over and over again, yet expecting different results for some irrational reason.

Keep looking in the woods my friends.......you will be special, and find what no one else has, for no reason at all.

Did they bring dogs onto that airplane in RNO? No, lets talk about a rust stain on some money, and a parachute harness buckle. Do you know what they are made of? Do they corrode in that fashion? Do they "rust?"

So you think he hid in the loo till everything calmed down

It seems to me that is a very high risk of getting caught - but could vaguely be a possibility especially if he bottled on the jump.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[dyslexic_jim 0]

Sky-jacking is a high risk enterprise, don't you think?

"Man could die eatin nothing but rabbit." - Patrick Foley

[377 22]

Jim,

Do you think Cooper faked the jump, hid on the plane and disembarked on the ground during or after landing? Houdini might have been able to pull that off. Where could Cooper have hidden? The behind panel spaces in the lav are too small from what I can see perusing my 727-100 manual. There is no access to the cargo hold from the pax cabin from what I can see.

Tell us your theory.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[dyslexic_jim 0]

It is my understanding, there is a way to access the number 2 engine in the space between the pressure bulkhead and the airstairs....a space "up above" where the normal human train of thought might be looking,

If something had been found on the ground, other than a mysterious bunch of bills on the banks of a river, I wouldn't consider it....but since no other alternative has yeilded anything, time to get outside of the box.....

Me, I think he lived one way or the other. And if he didn't, what a damn shame.

"Man could die eatin nothing but rabbit." - Patrick Foley

[377 22]

hmmm... will have to see what I can find out about in cabin access to that space. I dont see it in my manual but it is a flight manual not maintenance. I'd guess that access to #2 engine from pax space would be dangerous as it would give a path for fuel, fire, etc. Also, it could compromise cabin pressurization unless there was an airtight door.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[dyslexic_jim 0]

The space between the pressure bulkhead, and the airstairs....not in cabin.

ps - don't mind me, I have pulled the silver handle, and Mr. Miller is grateful.

"Man could die eatin nothing but rabbit." - Patrick Foley

[snowmman 3]

My understanding is they used at least one dog to look for the bomb on landing.
There was definitely one dog there, Rommel. Photo attached. No idea on the efficacy. But saying "no dogs" is not exactly right.

Supposedly surrounding neighborhoods were checked too? (if I remember an article correctly)...in case he ran off the plane on landing...?

[dyslexic_jim 0]

I have a little crawl space in me, that says DB didn't jump. I cut against my intuition in two mariages, I've learned to trust my gut.

I am a little affirmed by the fact they were thinking that way as well. All in all, it's a wash.

Ps mr snow - I didn't say there werent any dogs, I asked....

"Man could die eatin nothing but rabbit." - Patrick Foley

[skyjack71 0]

Help, Help. I can't open my pm's and I keep loosing the site if I even make a post - HELP didn't help - what is wrong. I am a computer DUMMY.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

The color money bundle photos which I tagged as being taken on 2/12/80 by comparison to other b/w photos:

The Brian Ingram website, created to announce his auction has that same photo that CNN published in '96
(that's on sluggo's site too). here:
http://www.dbcoopermoney.com/History/History.htm

Brian credited the FBI with the photo.

So Ckret has it.

Give it up Ckret! bundle photos from 2/12/80

and what about those black bills? are they all backs? what do they look like on the other side?

Hey on the total # of bills...brian got like 140, the insurance company got like 140 (and now all those are who knows where) and the FBI got 13-14...Lawyer got 15? (but gave some away to family/friends)
So we don't know how the FBI decided which 13-14 they'd keep. That would be good to know. Maybe wasn't random? Maybe they picked top/bottom bills?

and there's all this about the auction house piecing together more serials. Assuming the bills the insurance company got also has some "extra"....well we don't have a clue how many bills were actually found there!

[snowmman 3]

I noticed this a couple days back. No one mentioned it so I will. (and no it has nothing to do with me)
(edit) HEY wait a second..drug dealer? he stole that from me! Now I know why Jo gets mad!

man, that paragraph they quote is so cliche! it reminds me of reading Penthouse when I was a kid.

D.B. Cooper, Where Are You: My Own Story

By D.B. Cooper (Publication Consultants, $15.95)

The blurb: "D.B. Cooper is wild and conservative, smart and stupid, careful and courageous. ... He is a pirate, a friend, a schemer, a drug dealer, a nurturer, a murderer, a family man. And now -- a writer?"

Excerpt: "Candi was the type of girl young men's mothers warn them about and pray their sons will never bring home for Sunday dinner -- she was also the type of girl young men hope to encounter and experience at least once before they become old men. The moment I laid eyes on her I knew I was in trouble."

from another page:

An Alaskan named Walter Grant has written the "autobiography" of D.B. Cooper. "My Own Story" says the cover. It's fiction, says the publisher (wink wink). But, he says, Grant sure knows a lot about the legendary hijacker who vanished out the back of an airline over Oregon in 1971 (wink wink), says a promo.

[skyjack71 0]

Snowman and Georger - lets really decide where the heck Caterpillar Island is . Snow - you posted a map that showed Tena's bar infront of Caterpillar Island.

I came back with a post telling - "you are wrong", but then that means your map is wrong. Now you say just as I have said - if the mark you had for Tena's bar up around Sillappoo Lake was correct why could we see the Columbia in the pictures - and since I was there in 2001 - I was positive I was seeing across the Columbia and not looking at an island.

I had always believe that Caterpillar Island was way above Lake Vancouver and that Tena's Bar was just at the Nothern end of lake Vancouver.

Someone find a REAL GOOD MAP and verify the Tena's Bar Location.
My memory says it is just after that little protusion on the east end and I couldn't even see the island (when I was there) which had to be N.W. of Tena's bar.

SOMEONE PLEASE POST A GOOD MAP AND A SIMPLE MAP BEFORE I GO MAD. NOW YOU GUY HAVE ME DOUBTING MY SANITY.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

The find seems to have been on the sloped bank. Ckret can provide info from 1980, maybe. But I'm not sure we should believe the recent Ingram interview?

[377 22]

Quote

Excerpt: "Candi was the type of girl young men's mothers warn them about and pray their sons will never bring home for Sunday dinner -- she was also the type of girl young men hope to encounter and experience at least once before they become old men. The moment I laid eyes on her I knew I was in trouble."

This PROVES Cooper was a skydiver. Candi was a regular at my DZ and left her mark on many a young jumper. Check out that tie DNA tissue material a little further, should test positive for Herpes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

The find seems to have been on the sloped bank. Ckret can provide info from 1980, maybe. But I'm not sure we should believe the recent Ingram interview?

Snowmman this is the post you attached a photo called Tina's Bar and it is a picture of Caterpillar Island with a Blue marker above it.
This was when I gave you a hard time about Tina's bar and the Island - no one corrected me and like I said I thought I had bought the farm. Because that was not how I remembered it.

This is when a phone call is so much easier - I still do not see the trenches you are talking about.

There is an inlet above the beach which went NO where - just someplace rutted out by someone to protect their boat - a landing of sorts.