happythoughts 0 #3726 July 23, 2008 Quote I think Ckret is still holding onto a plant theory. I thought he was promoting the "a bag snagged on a passing branch" theory. I'm good with that one. My personal view. Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. The money? Placed in the gutted reserve container, tied shut with suspension lines, and tied to his body. The container makes its way to water. The water pushes it into an eddy and it settles. Live people keep track of their money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #3727 July 23, 2008 Quote Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. I don't follow this. I've been looking at pictures of naked skydivers on youtube, and based on what we've discussed about the temps and probable LZ, I'm thinking Cooper could have done the jump naked. What are the numbers people are using to say a naked jump wouldn't be survivable? If naked is survivable, I think that clears up a lot of these hypothermia theories? And why 48 hours? You don't believe he was just 10 miles from PDX? (edit) some data from a canadian study on frostnip risk: (temps are C). See attached graph also. Researchers found that there is a very clear threshold for tolerance of human skin to cold exposure. Most volunteers did not develop frostnip for wind chill index values between 0 and -27, during the 45 minute trial. However, once the wind chill fell below -27, the risk of frostbite increased exponentially. At a wind chill index of -40, all the volunteers developed frostnip within 10 minutes. At -55, all of the volunteers developed a frostnip in under 2 minutes. Since a representative sample of healthy adults was used in the study, researchers were able to establish frostbite guidelines that apply to most healthy Canadian adults. full study: (2001) http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA454525&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf "Guidelines on the Risk and Time to Frostbite during Exposure to Cold Winds" It mentions that the old Siple/Passel guidelines need revision. (centigrade wind chill chart is on page 9) Oh: I've just noticed that they had "appropriate clothing on the non-exposed skin. This may affect the results a lot. They were doing face tests. (edit) effect of this 2001 study: Until 2001, the Canadian and U.S. weather agencies (Environment Canada and the NWS, or National Weather Service) used an index devised in 1945 to calculate windchill. This is the Siple-Passel Index. In the late 1990s, the Canadian and American authorities decided it would be appropriate to revisit the windchill formula. A working group from Canada and the U.S.A. investigated how cold wind really feels, and decided the old formula needed updating. In 2001, a new index was clinically tested with (brave) human volunteers. The result of all the work was a new formula, now in use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #3728 July 23, 2008 Quote Quote The Ingram photo does not match the FBI excavation photos. But 40ft feet up from the waterline seems consistent in every report. The place the money was found, the slope it was, and distance from the water line on are important because they define the processes that apply at that location vs other locations in that area Give Me A Break: You guys do NOT seem to understand that there is NO tributary that can put the money in the Columbia except the Washougal. The LZ does not put Cooper in the Water. Where are you getting this fact "40ft from the waterline"...please note the sources? When I was there in May of 2001 - it might have been 50 ft from the fence to the Columbia waters... but you keep forgetting that the Columbia has other influences - snow melts, tides, dams, rains ...this list goes on and on. Feb. of a yr. I expect the river was much lower than it normally is in the spring. What needs to be used is the Medium Water line - so those who have never seen the Columbia will understand what is going on with the deductions you guys are making. The facts do not put the money or Cooper in the water unless you stretch and stretch the FACTS as has been going on - you guys act none of the rest of the discussions ever happened...maybe because there is no one, but little ole me to question this...and I don't count because - I am not smart enough and my belief is biased. I will note that NOT one of you in this forum has even addressed the experiment that I intend to do and it is just ignored. I asked for feed back and got none. I am surprised that NO ONE has done this before with a package the size Cooper was carrying - just to see where it would go. It is easy today with the technology that exists. Just put one of those fancy gadgets the FBI has in the package and track it. At least I am willing to put MY MONEY where my MOUTH is and I haven't seen anyone else do that except Tosaw. I don't have the kind of money Tosaw has and I will do the best I can. I expect the FBI loves the way this is going - then they can bury Cooper. I assure you that is NOT going to Happen......FACTS do not change. Interpretations of the FACTS do help, but it still comes down to probablilities of what Happened in conjunction with the FACTS. Cooper nor the money got into the Columbia except by transportation - natural or human. The natural element is basically impossible.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3729 July 23, 2008 QuoteAll, Okay… here’s what I got (for what it’s worth). Look at Profile-Line-RED.jpg. I drew a (Blue) line 1393 feet long starting out in the water and continuing east to a canal of some sort (passing through a small building). Look at Profile Find Site.jpg. It shows the profile along the blue line (west to east). The minimum elevation (in the water) is 7 feet the maximum near Lower River Road is 19 feet. So you start at 7 feet go up to 19 feet and then back down to 11 feet. So it is mostly flat. (Total elevation change = 4 feet.) The file Datum.jpg shows the map data (especially the vertical datum). This is the best I can do for now. I’ll keep my eyes open. Sluggo_Monster EDIT: You learn something new every day. The symbol right at the top of Catapillar Island is an "Exposed Wreck". (See Exposed Wreck.jpg.) REPLY> Thanks Sluggo. There isnt nearly the elevation I thought there was. It trully is a "bar" (flat). It is not like the hill Ingramis sitting on in the PI photo. photos attached - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3730 July 23, 2008 Rust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #3731 July 23, 2008 clicky The quote below mentions the aggravating factor of water immersion on hypothermia. There is kind of a balance here. He wasn't immersed, but he was wet. QuoteHeat loss on land is very difficult to predict due to multiple variables such as clothing type and quantity, amount of insulating fat on the victim, environmental humidity or personal dampness such as after exertion, the circumstances surrounding the hypothermic episode, and so on. Heat is lost much faster in water... For example, a water temperature of 10 degrees Celsius (50 F) can be expected to lead to death in approximately 1 hour... It was raining. Exit temp was minus 7 degrees. Wind chill at 200 mph est at minus 60. He landed without shoes (IMO) because he exited in slipon shoes. At 200mph, you may lose your a$$ if it isn't tied on. I don't remember the ground temp. If a tree didn't kill you, or hang you 40ft up... and you didn't land on a rock and break something a leg... He was wet, in the dark and cold for hours. 45-50 degrees and those conditions... 4 hours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #3732 July 23, 2008 QuoteRust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Rust could imply that someone was toting money around in a bucket. I don't see it. Nobody has put it under a microscope yet. Quick bet. A jump ticket says it's not rust. (edited to add) I have seen dredges that are used for beach replenishment in Florida. They have huge long rusty pipes. If the money went through, it could get a rusty scuff on it. However, I favor the no-dredge, floating-along-in-a-nylon-bag, flood theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3733 July 23, 2008 Quoteclicky The quote below mentions the aggravating factor of water immersion on hypothermia. There is kind of a balance here. He wasn't immersed, but he was wet. QuoteHeat loss on land is very difficult to predict due to multiple variables such as clothing type and quantity, amount of insulating fat on the victim, environmental humidity or personal dampness such as after exertion, the circumstances surrounding the hypothermic episode, and so on. Heat is lost much faster in water... For example, a water temperature of 10 degrees Celsius (50 F) can be expected to lead to death in approximately 1 hour... It was raining. Exit temp was minus 7 degrees. Wind chill at 200 mph est at minus 60. REPLY> That is -7C = 19.4F at 10000ft for <10sec. I don't remember the ground temp. REPLY> You answered your own below ... "45-50 degrees and those conditions..." REPLY> The auction company put some of the bills under a field microscope at 20x & 40x. photo attached. See the sand grains? I did some further processing - photos attchd. See the sand grains. See the fibre filament (labeled). Ive only started! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3734 July 23, 2008 Sluggo, here is something else you and Snowman might find interesting. It relates to using optical photo luminescence to date things like silicates and other minerals whose atomic clocks have been reset by exposure to sunlight after prolonged darkness (as in buried). This may or may not apply but I want to mention it so its in your inventory. There is a forensic textbook on the subject (url too long to copy here) so I will post a related pdf, and if need be can email you the url to the textbook abstract (which is very detailed). http://allendale-expedition.net/publications/MT1.PDF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #3735 July 23, 2008 All, I know I’m probably boring everybody with this… but…. Here is another graphical representation of the East to West profile of Tena Bar. I drew a line (similar to the previous) starting 260 feet out into the water continuing east to the canal. This line’s total length is 1402 feet. See TopoUSA Profile.jpg. I set the marker at the water’s edge. See TopoUSA Water’s Edge.jpg. The elevation at this point is 15.1 feet. (260 feet from the start.) I then set a marker at the point where the line crosses Lower River Road. See TopoUSA At Lwr River Road.jpg. The elevation here is 22.9 feet. (1063 feet from the start.) So the elevation gain is 7.8 feet in 803 feet (about 1% grade). I guess the sand forms dunes and is always shifting creating hills and valleys in local areas, but it is hard to imagine anything higher that 30 feet (except at Fazio Brother’s facility). Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #3736 July 23, 2008 this is very nice stuff sluggo. thanks. What's odd is that it seems to say that if the Columbia rose 8' from where you measured it, that it would flood to Lower River Rd.? I guess all in all, it's saying you don't need much extra water to get it fairly high up on the beach (cause the beach is so shallow angle, as you point out) So we shouldn't have to worry about getting "extreme flood waters" to get the bag deposited by water at the find site? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #3737 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuote Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. I don't follow this. I've been looking at pictures of naked skydivers on youtube, and based on what we've discussed about the temps and probable LZ, I'm thinking Cooper could have done the jump naked. What are the numbers people are using to say a naked jump wouldn't be survivable? If naked is survivable, I think that clears up a lot of these hypothermia theories? I don't quite follow this line of reasoning - a naked jump is naked for maybe 4-5 mins total of freefall and canopy time (less for those jumping hot dog canopies). Then you land, get into the hangar and put your clothes on. Not the same as being outside and possibly lost or hung up on a tree or floating through the river or or or....{whatever} for a good while, if not the whole night, (possibly for the rest of his life) thereafter. plus happy's extract of the wiki hypothermia article. Might I also remind the forum (I think we spoke about this at some stage) of the guy who died of hypothermia after a successful BASE jump not that long ago. And I seem to recall reading about a long ago incident where a couple of guys landed in a lake, one survived because of what he was wearing, the other died of exposure/hypothermia IIRC - and we are not talking about all that long to rescue the guys (i may have some of the facts of this case wrong, if so can one of the older jumpers please correct me)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #3738 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. I don't follow this. I've been looking at pictures of naked skydivers on youtube, and based on what we've discussed about the temps and probable LZ, I'm thinking Cooper could have done the jump naked. What are the numbers people are using to say a naked jump wouldn't be survivable? If naked is survivable, I think that clears up a lot of these hypothermia theories? I don't quite follow this line of reasoning - a naked jump is naked for maybe 4-5 mins total of freefall and canopy time (less for those jumping hot dog canopies). Then you land, get into the hangar and put your clothes on. Not the same as being outside and possibly lost or hung up on a tree or floating through the river or or or....{whatever} for a good while, if not the whole night, (possibly for the rest of his life) thereafter. plus happy's extract of the wiki hypothermia article. Might I also remind the forum (I think we spoke about this at some stage) of the guy who died of hypothermia after a successful BASE jump not that long ago. And I seem to recall reading about a long ago incident where a couple of guys landed in a lake, one survived because of what he was wearing, the other died of exposure/hypothermia IIRC - and we are not talking about all that long to rescue the guys (i may have some of the facts of this case wrong, if so can one of the older jumpers please correct me) I guess I'm being a little tongue in cheek on purpose, to swing the pendulum the other way, and actually think about the real conditions. I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. If Cooper had jumped in Antartica with that clothing, then it might be more believable that the conditions inhibited his ability to deploy. I was reading about snow/rain jumps. I didn't know that Charles Lindbergh survived 4 emergency parachute jumps from planes with problems. Two were into snow and rain, one of those at night (he flew a lot delivering mail). This was in the 20's http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/jumps.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #3739 July 23, 2008 Quote I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. I've been away a lot so have only skimmed many of the posts, but I don't recall anyone suggesting this? HOWEVER... there are certainly real instances of clothing impeding the ability to pull, usually something like a top that hasn't been tucked (in or become untucked) blowing over the ripcord/hacky/handles. (If Cooper jumped in his suit jacket or coat the effect may have been the same?) This is one of the reasons many people wear jumpsuits....Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #3740 July 23, 2008 QuoteRust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. I don't think stains match up dimensionally to any steel NB 6 harness hardware, but a rigger could tell us. There is something symmetrical in that rust stain that looks a bit like a D ring, but the NB6 didnt have D rings, correct? see images at: http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3741 July 23, 2008 QuoteAll, I know I’m probably boring everybody with this… but…. Here is another graphical representation of the East to West profile of Tena Bar. I drew a line (similar to the previous) starting 260 feet out into the water continuing east to the canal. This line’s total length is 1402 feet. See TopoUSA Profile.jpg. I set the marker at the water’s edge. See TopoUSA Water’s Edge.jpg. The elevation at this point is 15.1 feet. (260 feet from the start.) I then set a marker at the point where the line crosses Lower River Road. See TopoUSA At Lwr River Road.jpg. The elevation here is 22.9 feet. (1063 feet from the start.) So the elevation gain is 7.8 feet in 803 feet (about 1% grade). I guess the sand forms dunes and is always shifting creating hills and valleys in local areas, but it is hard to imagine anything higher that 30 feet (except at Fazio Brother’s facility). Sluggo_Monster Spectacular! and a revelation. It is a sandbar in every sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3742 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuote I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. I've been away a lot so have only skimmed many of the posts, but I don't recall anyone suggesting this? HOWEVER... there are certainly real instances of clothing impeding the ability to pull, usually something like a top that hasn't been tucked (in or become untucked) blowing over the ripcord/hacky/handles. (If Cooper jumped in his suit jacket or coat the effect may have been the same?) This is one of the reasons many people wear jumpsuits.... REPLY> for me its not clothes or temps but the two motion hard pull Cossey described later - either he knew or he screwed up, it seems to me. Its the jump where this all begins ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3743 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteRust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. I don't think stains match up dimensionally to any steel NB 6 harness hardware, but a rigger could tell us. There is something symmetrical in that rust stain that looks a bit like a D ring, but the NB6 didnt have D rings, correct? see images at: http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill 377 REPLY> I just dont see the patterns you do but then again most people have seen UFO's and I havent! (I always miss out!) Seriously I dont see the patterns. Cossey said his NB6's had no D ring, if I recall. A D- ring would be larger (much larger) than these width of these bills, however there were no D-rings unless Sluggo says there were. I cant make much out of rust on one bill. Seems random to me. Now if there was rust on 20 bills ?? And all the same pattern?? Just for the record elemantal iron in ink does not leave "rust". I am pretty sure these are rust stains - dont know what else they would be. I also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! I do get excited about sand grains and micro evidence like the thread - see photo attached. This photo is in natural colour. Note the colour of the thread. Remind you of anything? (same colour as the Amboy canopy?) Who knows where that snipet of bill came from in the pile or what the thread is but the thread colour is interesting, for the time being. I would imagine there are a billion clues like this in the money if someone had bothered to look. Because, by the time you get beyond the level of those grains of sand and identify them (probably from T Bar) there may be other little things to look at, and that's when things get interesting. Here's some photos again - BTW, I havent even looked at the other money samples in any critical way - would rather examine the money itself! And so would a million other people ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #3744 July 24, 2008 QuoteI also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! You may have just thought of a key to open that door. If someone had the gear to do the analysis and could generate the trust so that someone would loan them a particular bill, you could sell them on it. Just say, "Hey, I think that there is blood on that one bill. If it is, your bill would be the only one, and worth 5 times more immediately. Would you like me to examine it?" Nuttin' like greed as a driving force for the owner. It is probably not blood, but you'd get to look at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #3745 July 24, 2008 picture one is cooper reliving the good old aviation days (in the attic) picture two is cooper driving his big rig in British Columbia. He had to switch to lights in his later years. Hey, do you think Cooper collected the Raleigh Coupons and redeemed any? Probably not. Be funny if Raleigh had an address on him at the time. I remember as a kid finding a purse full of raleigh coupons at the dump. I even sent away for the catalog and ordered some stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #3746 July 24, 2008 QuoteWhat's odd is that it seems to say that if the Columbia rose 8' from where you measured it, that it would flood to Lower River Rd.? The Fazio house sat on the South side of Lower River Rd. A member of the film crew asked if the house had ever flooded. - The man answered it, but I do not remember what he said -but this discussion helped recall the question being asked. I know what I thought he said, but not really clear in my head (remember I got upset regarding Tena's Bar and walked back up to the cars. The Fazion home sat lower than the elevation of "The River Ladies House" (this is only an observation of having been there and seeing the river from both sites). She mentioned that homes in the area flooded near by, but the family home did not suffer any damages. The cottage/cabin sat East of "The River Lady's" Home - she wasn't sure but thought the flood got it (did not state a yr)...she was away at college. So she didn't know when the cabin disappeared. Understand that I am talking about an area East and West of Winterly Park --- different parts of the river because of the curve and currents and elevations had more flooding than others. The homes that replaced the Cabin where built up higher on the land than the Cabin that was not there in 2001. It was just that - a river cabin and it was really on the river. I have never seen pictures of this cabin and do NOT know if this is the area Duane took me to or not, but it was close because of the location of the airport being across the way and NOT visible because of the trees. She said there was another area similar to this just East of there - but my driver did not take me there as we were pressed for time. This is why I am going alone and rent a car in Vancouver that I might revisit these places and the other places I did not see.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #3747 July 24, 2008 Quote Quote I do get excited about sand grains and micro evidence like the thread - see photo attached. This photo is in natural colour. Note the colour of the thread. Remind you of anything? (same colour as the Amboy canopy?) Who knows where that snipet of bill came from in the pile or what the thread is but the thread colour is interesting, for the time being. WELL, if it is a thread from the chute it goes back to something I suggested yrs ago, but it was scoffed at. 1. The fabric the chutes are made of from that era - AREN'T they difficult to cut up or shred or rot? 2. Will a knife or scissors cut the fabric easily? 3. Cooper did not have access to plastic - could he have cut up his chute (after landing) for a and b? a. First for protection from the elements. b. Secondly to protect the money when he found a place to hide it. Good Night - I don't feel so good - maybe it just all the exitement.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3748 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteI also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! You may have just thought of a key to open that door. If someone had the gear to do the analysis and could generate the trust so that someone would loan them a particular bill, you could sell them on it. Just say, "Hey, I think that there is blood on that one bill. If it is, your bill would be the only one, and worth 5 times more immediately. Would you like me to examine it?" Nuttin' like greed as a driving force for the owner. It is probably not blood, but you'd get to look at it. REPLY> Thanks Happythoughts. The thought hasnt gone unnoticed. Im sure we have all wondered if the the 'rust' stains are blood stains? I dont speculate too far about these things until tests are done but I have to admit that curled thread does intrigue me. I may post more about it. I am not saying anything everyone here does not already know. We are all conscious of it each in their own private way. Small evidence can open doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #3749 July 24, 2008 Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. REPLY> I do now. See attached. I did some false colour processing of the original to bring out detail. The circular area is roughy in line with the Jackson oval on the front. I dont know what to make of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #3750 July 24, 2008 G, You gotta be a spysat guy... or perhaps into its more benign cousin, earth resources imaging? Crop circles on twenties. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 Next Page 150 of 2571 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50
georger 245 #3734 July 23, 2008 Sluggo, here is something else you and Snowman might find interesting. It relates to using optical photo luminescence to date things like silicates and other minerals whose atomic clocks have been reset by exposure to sunlight after prolonged darkness (as in buried). This may or may not apply but I want to mention it so its in your inventory. There is a forensic textbook on the subject (url too long to copy here) so I will post a related pdf, and if need be can email you the url to the textbook abstract (which is very detailed). http://allendale-expedition.net/publications/MT1.PDF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #3735 July 23, 2008 All, I know I’m probably boring everybody with this… but…. Here is another graphical representation of the East to West profile of Tena Bar. I drew a line (similar to the previous) starting 260 feet out into the water continuing east to the canal. This line’s total length is 1402 feet. See TopoUSA Profile.jpg. I set the marker at the water’s edge. See TopoUSA Water’s Edge.jpg. The elevation at this point is 15.1 feet. (260 feet from the start.) I then set a marker at the point where the line crosses Lower River Road. See TopoUSA At Lwr River Road.jpg. The elevation here is 22.9 feet. (1063 feet from the start.) So the elevation gain is 7.8 feet in 803 feet (about 1% grade). I guess the sand forms dunes and is always shifting creating hills and valleys in local areas, but it is hard to imagine anything higher that 30 feet (except at Fazio Brother’s facility). Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #3736 July 23, 2008 this is very nice stuff sluggo. thanks. What's odd is that it seems to say that if the Columbia rose 8' from where you measured it, that it would flood to Lower River Rd.? I guess all in all, it's saying you don't need much extra water to get it fairly high up on the beach (cause the beach is so shallow angle, as you point out) So we shouldn't have to worry about getting "extreme flood waters" to get the bag deposited by water at the find site? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #3737 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuote Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. I don't follow this. I've been looking at pictures of naked skydivers on youtube, and based on what we've discussed about the temps and probable LZ, I'm thinking Cooper could have done the jump naked. What are the numbers people are using to say a naked jump wouldn't be survivable? If naked is survivable, I think that clears up a lot of these hypothermia theories? I don't quite follow this line of reasoning - a naked jump is naked for maybe 4-5 mins total of freefall and canopy time (less for those jumping hot dog canopies). Then you land, get into the hangar and put your clothes on. Not the same as being outside and possibly lost or hung up on a tree or floating through the river or or or....{whatever} for a good while, if not the whole night, (possibly for the rest of his life) thereafter. plus happy's extract of the wiki hypothermia article. Might I also remind the forum (I think we spoke about this at some stage) of the guy who died of hypothermia after a successful BASE jump not that long ago. And I seem to recall reading about a long ago incident where a couple of guys landed in a lake, one survived because of what he was wearing, the other died of exposure/hypothermia IIRC - and we are not talking about all that long to rescue the guys (i may have some of the facts of this case wrong, if so can one of the older jumpers please correct me)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #3738 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Cooper died. He landed in the top of a tree or a lake, or he died of hypothermia during 48 hours in the weather conditions. I don't follow this. I've been looking at pictures of naked skydivers on youtube, and based on what we've discussed about the temps and probable LZ, I'm thinking Cooper could have done the jump naked. What are the numbers people are using to say a naked jump wouldn't be survivable? If naked is survivable, I think that clears up a lot of these hypothermia theories? I don't quite follow this line of reasoning - a naked jump is naked for maybe 4-5 mins total of freefall and canopy time (less for those jumping hot dog canopies). Then you land, get into the hangar and put your clothes on. Not the same as being outside and possibly lost or hung up on a tree or floating through the river or or or....{whatever} for a good while, if not the whole night, (possibly for the rest of his life) thereafter. plus happy's extract of the wiki hypothermia article. Might I also remind the forum (I think we spoke about this at some stage) of the guy who died of hypothermia after a successful BASE jump not that long ago. And I seem to recall reading about a long ago incident where a couple of guys landed in a lake, one survived because of what he was wearing, the other died of exposure/hypothermia IIRC - and we are not talking about all that long to rescue the guys (i may have some of the facts of this case wrong, if so can one of the older jumpers please correct me) I guess I'm being a little tongue in cheek on purpose, to swing the pendulum the other way, and actually think about the real conditions. I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. If Cooper had jumped in Antartica with that clothing, then it might be more believable that the conditions inhibited his ability to deploy. I was reading about snow/rain jumps. I didn't know that Charles Lindbergh survived 4 emergency parachute jumps from planes with problems. Two were into snow and rain, one of those at night (he flew a lot delivering mail). This was in the 20's http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/jumps.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #3739 July 23, 2008 Quote I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. I've been away a lot so have only skimmed many of the posts, but I don't recall anyone suggesting this? HOWEVER... there are certainly real instances of clothing impeding the ability to pull, usually something like a top that hasn't been tucked (in or become untucked) blowing over the ripcord/hacky/handles. (If Cooper jumped in his suit jacket or coat the effect may have been the same?) This is one of the reasons many people wear jumpsuits....Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #3740 July 23, 2008 QuoteRust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. I don't think stains match up dimensionally to any steel NB 6 harness hardware, but a rigger could tell us. There is something symmetrical in that rust stain that looks a bit like a D ring, but the NB6 didnt have D rings, correct? see images at: http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3741 July 23, 2008 QuoteAll, I know I’m probably boring everybody with this… but…. Here is another graphical representation of the East to West profile of Tena Bar. I drew a line (similar to the previous) starting 260 feet out into the water continuing east to the canal. This line’s total length is 1402 feet. See TopoUSA Profile.jpg. I set the marker at the water’s edge. See TopoUSA Water’s Edge.jpg. The elevation at this point is 15.1 feet. (260 feet from the start.) I then set a marker at the point where the line crosses Lower River Road. See TopoUSA At Lwr River Road.jpg. The elevation here is 22.9 feet. (1063 feet from the start.) So the elevation gain is 7.8 feet in 803 feet (about 1% grade). I guess the sand forms dunes and is always shifting creating hills and valleys in local areas, but it is hard to imagine anything higher that 30 feet (except at Fazio Brother’s facility). Sluggo_Monster Spectacular! and a revelation. It is a sandbar in every sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3742 July 23, 2008 QuoteQuote I guess my point is that clothing (good or bad) wouldn't have impeded the ability to pull the rip and get to the ground. I've been away a lot so have only skimmed many of the posts, but I don't recall anyone suggesting this? HOWEVER... there are certainly real instances of clothing impeding the ability to pull, usually something like a top that hasn't been tucked (in or become untucked) blowing over the ripcord/hacky/handles. (If Cooper jumped in his suit jacket or coat the effect may have been the same?) This is one of the reasons many people wear jumpsuits.... REPLY> for me its not clothes or temps but the two motion hard pull Cossey described later - either he knew or he screwed up, it seems to me. Its the jump where this all begins ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3743 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteRust like stain on just ONE bill so far - not bills. Plus rust can localise to one spot - tanic acid with spread out to affect a large area. These (rust) stains are bright ferrus oxide like, not umber or ochre like as with tanic acid, at least to my eye?. Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. I don't think stains match up dimensionally to any steel NB 6 harness hardware, but a rigger could tell us. There is something symmetrical in that rust stain that looks a bit like a D ring, but the NB6 didnt have D rings, correct? see images at: http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill 377 REPLY> I just dont see the patterns you do but then again most people have seen UFO's and I havent! (I always miss out!) Seriously I dont see the patterns. Cossey said his NB6's had no D ring, if I recall. A D- ring would be larger (much larger) than these width of these bills, however there were no D-rings unless Sluggo says there were. I cant make much out of rust on one bill. Seems random to me. Now if there was rust on 20 bills ?? And all the same pattern?? Just for the record elemantal iron in ink does not leave "rust". I am pretty sure these are rust stains - dont know what else they would be. I also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! I do get excited about sand grains and micro evidence like the thread - see photo attached. This photo is in natural colour. Note the colour of the thread. Remind you of anything? (same colour as the Amboy canopy?) Who knows where that snipet of bill came from in the pile or what the thread is but the thread colour is interesting, for the time being. I would imagine there are a billion clues like this in the money if someone had bothered to look. Because, by the time you get beyond the level of those grains of sand and identify them (probably from T Bar) there may be other little things to look at, and that's when things get interesting. Here's some photos again - BTW, I havent even looked at the other money samples in any critical way - would rather examine the money itself! And so would a million other people ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #3744 July 24, 2008 QuoteI also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! You may have just thought of a key to open that door. If someone had the gear to do the analysis and could generate the trust so that someone would loan them a particular bill, you could sell them on it. Just say, "Hey, I think that there is blood on that one bill. If it is, your bill would be the only one, and worth 5 times more immediately. Would you like me to examine it?" Nuttin' like greed as a driving force for the owner. It is probably not blood, but you'd get to look at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #3745 July 24, 2008 picture one is cooper reliving the good old aviation days (in the attic) picture two is cooper driving his big rig in British Columbia. He had to switch to lights in his later years. Hey, do you think Cooper collected the Raleigh Coupons and redeemed any? Probably not. Be funny if Raleigh had an address on him at the time. I remember as a kid finding a purse full of raleigh coupons at the dump. I even sent away for the catalog and ordered some stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #3746 July 24, 2008 QuoteWhat's odd is that it seems to say that if the Columbia rose 8' from where you measured it, that it would flood to Lower River Rd.? The Fazio house sat on the South side of Lower River Rd. A member of the film crew asked if the house had ever flooded. - The man answered it, but I do not remember what he said -but this discussion helped recall the question being asked. I know what I thought he said, but not really clear in my head (remember I got upset regarding Tena's Bar and walked back up to the cars. The Fazion home sat lower than the elevation of "The River Ladies House" (this is only an observation of having been there and seeing the river from both sites). She mentioned that homes in the area flooded near by, but the family home did not suffer any damages. The cottage/cabin sat East of "The River Lady's" Home - she wasn't sure but thought the flood got it (did not state a yr)...she was away at college. So she didn't know when the cabin disappeared. Understand that I am talking about an area East and West of Winterly Park --- different parts of the river because of the curve and currents and elevations had more flooding than others. The homes that replaced the Cabin where built up higher on the land than the Cabin that was not there in 2001. It was just that - a river cabin and it was really on the river. I have never seen pictures of this cabin and do NOT know if this is the area Duane took me to or not, but it was close because of the location of the airport being across the way and NOT visible because of the trees. She said there was another area similar to this just East of there - but my driver did not take me there as we were pressed for time. This is why I am going alone and rent a car in Vancouver that I might revisit these places and the other places I did not see.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #3747 July 24, 2008 Quote Quote I do get excited about sand grains and micro evidence like the thread - see photo attached. This photo is in natural colour. Note the colour of the thread. Remind you of anything? (same colour as the Amboy canopy?) Who knows where that snipet of bill came from in the pile or what the thread is but the thread colour is interesting, for the time being. WELL, if it is a thread from the chute it goes back to something I suggested yrs ago, but it was scoffed at. 1. The fabric the chutes are made of from that era - AREN'T they difficult to cut up or shred or rot? 2. Will a knife or scissors cut the fabric easily? 3. Cooper did not have access to plastic - could he have cut up his chute (after landing) for a and b? a. First for protection from the elements. b. Secondly to protect the money when he found a place to hide it. Good Night - I don't feel so good - maybe it just all the exitement.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3748 July 24, 2008 QuoteQuoteI also have wondered about stains and physical features lining up but frankly I dont get too excited about stains - UNLESS THEY ARE BLOOD! You may have just thought of a key to open that door. If someone had the gear to do the analysis and could generate the trust so that someone would loan them a particular bill, you could sell them on it. Just say, "Hey, I think that there is blood on that one bill. If it is, your bill would be the only one, and worth 5 times more immediately. Would you like me to examine it?" Nuttin' like greed as a driving force for the owner. It is probably not blood, but you'd get to look at it. REPLY> Thanks Happythoughts. The thought hasnt gone unnoticed. Im sure we have all wondered if the the 'rust' stains are blood stains? I dont speculate too far about these things until tests are done but I have to admit that curled thread does intrigue me. I may post more about it. I am not saying anything everyone here does not already know. We are all conscious of it each in their own private way. Small evidence can open doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #3749 July 24, 2008 Georger, Do you see a circular line of rust stain (partly broken)? Wonder what it means? I also see a couple of semi circular discolorations, will try to mark up the picture to show you. REPLY> I do now. See attached. I did some false colour processing of the original to bring out detail. The circular area is roughy in line with the Jackson oval on the front. I dont know what to make of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #3750 July 24, 2008 G, You gotta be a spysat guy... or perhaps into its more benign cousin, earth resources imaging? Crop circles on twenties. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
