DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

Here’s a new article and video (from KOMO):

Find the article at: THIS LINK

Find the video at: THIS OTHER LINK

I’ve heard of the book “Legend of D.B. Cooper: Death by Natural Causes, by Ron and Pat Forman” but never gave it much credence.

Ckret, What do you have to say about this? And, what kind of (rookie) agent doesn’t know what “hijacking” means? I thought ALL agents had college degrees.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Back in March I posted this:

Quote

Speaking of the Cronkite Video….


There is a man getting off the plane (or maybe escorting the passengers) who has what looks like a small portable radio of the time. Not a “Walkie-Talkie” but an AM or AM/FM transistor radio.

These screen captures don’t make him very clear, so look at the video and watch for him. He comes into the field at about 00:24 into the video.

Ckret, Is this guy Law Enforcement, a passenger, Airport Management? Do you have any idea who he is and why he has what appears to be a radio receiver (not Transmitter/receiver).

Sluggo

I have reposted the three original photos plus one other and one of Agent Fuhriman (in 2008).

My question is:
Is Walkie-Talkie Man from 37 years ago Agent Furiman?

I welcome all opinions. Ckret... What say you?

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Here's the plot

A long time poster to the DZ.com thread finally tracks DB down to a small fishing village on an island off the coast of Alaska. He makes his way there, and gets to talking with D.B.

Eventually a plan gets hatched to top 1971. Hijack the space shuttle. The ransom? 8 kg of plutonium.

Sluggo_monster is tapped to do the delivery, in a Soyuz rocket.

Three thousand FBI agents are deployed to intercept the shuttle on landing. But you got it: Our hero bails from the shuttle at 30 miles up.

Nothing is ever found, except some irradiated Big Mac wrappers at a McDonalds 15 miles from the predicted landing zone.

A new thread is started at DZ.com "There's no way he had any McDonald's experience" they say. Little did they know about that long summer during high school.

[snowmman 3]

The money on the green FBI table, from 2/12/80 is shown quickly in the KOMO video Sluggo references.

That table is in the small photo I referenced before, about color bundle photos.

I'm going to snap some frames from that video.

(edit) attached. Note that you can see the full table, and my previous sleuthing is verified, I believe.

Note. All information about "The Green Table" is for L clearance only.

(4, 5 and 6 provide another fuzzy angled view of "The Shifted Bundle")

(edit) In the first photo, someone is standing there with a red-brown jacket on. This is the same color as Flo's stew uniform, and the supposed color of the "sticks". I don't know what that means, if anything.

[snowmman 3]

I was perplexed about the white line in the 2/12/80 corbis bundle photo.

I had always thought that it was a line on the table, and couldn't understand it. The line wasn't in the previous single green table photo we had.

Now that we have more snaps of the green table, a comparison of the snaps, to the corbis photo, seems to show that the "line" is a scratch or something on the corbis photo.

Note that the "line" doesn't extend the full length of the table..which also makes me think scratch or hair or something on the photo (maybe when they were scanning the photo?)

The layout of the bundles matches exactly. So it's the same day/photo shoot.

It must be a scratch/hair.

Photo attached again for comparison to above snaps

[georger 247]

Quote

I was perplexed about the white line in the 2/12/80 corbis bundle photo.

I had always thought that it was a line on the table, and couldn't understand it. The line wasn't in the previous single green table photo we had.

Now that we have more snaps of the green table, a comparison of the snaps, to the corbis photo, seems to show that the "line" is a scratch or something on the corbis photo.

Note that the "line" doesn't extend the full length of the table..which also makes me think scratch or hair or something on the photo (maybe when they were scanning the photo?)

The layout of the bundles matches exactly. So it's the same day/photo shoot.

It must be a scratch/hair.

Photo attached again for comparison to above snaps

REPLY> Its simply depth of field due to F-number of the photo lens used. Front of image is in focus - back
is not. Photo taken at f1.2-f4.0.

attached brings out more line detail.

BTW the red violet thread in the previous money photo
is because bills at that time had red, blue, red-violet
curly thread segments in them, which makes sense.
Used to ID real vrs fake money. If you look at other
bills you will see more blue and red-violet thread
segments.

[georger 247]

Quote

All,

Here’s a new article and video (from KOMO):

Find the article at: THIS LINK

Find the video at: THIS OTHER LINK

I’ve heard of the book “Legend of D.B. Cooper: Death by Natural Causes, by Ron and Pat Forman” but never gave it much credence.

Ckret, What do you have to say about this? And, what kind of (rookie) agent doesn’t know what “hijacking” means? I thought ALL agents had college degrees.

Sluggo_Monster

mystery solved

[georger 247]

Quote

picture one is cooper reliving the good old aviation days (in the attic)

picture two is cooper driving his big rig in British Columbia. He had to switch to lights in his later years.


Hey, do you think Cooper collected the Raleigh Coupons and redeemed any? Probably not. Be funny if Raleigh had an address on him at the time.

I remember as a kid finding a purse full of raleigh coupons at the dump. I even sent away for the catalog and ordered some stuff.

here -

[snowmman 3]

did some research on "walkie-talkie" circa 1971

Probably would have been called handi-talkies from the Motorola lingo.

Motorola HT-200 and HT-220 available then (200 introduced in 1962, 220 introduced in 1969). Photos attached. Gives idea of relative size that would be required for components of that era?

but they would have been VHF FM probably? That antenna looks like a cheapo AM radio antenna

The last picture is a good one of the 220. The HT-220 Slimline made PC World's list of the 50 greatest gadgets of the last 50 years in 2005. First portable radio to use ICs rather than discrete transistors. Weighed only 22 oz.
(look at the antenna)

(edit) added a more recently taken photo of an HT-200 ..surprisingly they had the cheapo antenna! but sluggo can compare to his snaps. This pic has the case over the HT.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I was perplexed about the white line in the 2/12/80 corbis bundle photo.

I had always thought that it was a line on the table, and couldn't understand it. The line wasn't in the previous single green table photo we had.

Now that we have more snaps of the green table, a comparison of the snaps, to the corbis photo, seems to show that the "line" is a scratch or something on the corbis photo.

Note that the "line" doesn't extend the full length of the table..which also makes me think scratch or hair or something on the photo (maybe when they were scanning the photo?)

The layout of the bundles matches exactly. So it's the same day/photo shoot.

It must be a scratch/hair.

Photo attached again for comparison to above snaps

REPLY> Its simply depth of field due to F-number of the photo lens used. Front of image is in focus - back
is not. Photo taken at f1.2-f4.0.

attached brings out more line detail.

BTW the red violet thread in the previous money photo
is because bills at that time had red, blue, red-violet
curly thread segments in them, which makes sense.
Used to ID real vrs fake money. If you look at other
bills you will see more blue and red-violet thread
segments.

amazing..I think you may be right. I looked at the KOMO snaps above again, and the line is faintly visible in photo 5...Look for yourself.

[snowmman 3]

I was surprised at the reference to stainless steel for parachute hardware, as I would have thought it too brittle for life-sustaining use. Maybe it's used in modern times..but looking at Poynter, it seems like the NB-6 probably had some kind of alloy steel, cadmium plated for corrosion? stamped or forged.

skydivers might chime in here...but I think maybe stainless hardware for the 1971 era NB-6 isn't right?

Would the steel have been some kind of cro-moly like 4340? cadmium plated? 4340 would rust without plating.
Poynter also mentions alternate phosphate coating for corrosion.

[georger 247]

Quote

All,

I know I’m probably boring everybody with this… but….

Here is another graphical representation of the East to West profile of Tena Bar.

I drew a line (similar to the previous) starting 260 feet out into the water continuing east to the canal. This line’s total length is 1402 feet. See TopoUSA Profile.jpg.

I set the marker at the water’s edge. See TopoUSA Water’s Edge.jpg. The elevation at this point is 15.1 feet. (260 feet from the start.)

I then set a marker at the point where the line crosses Lower River Road. See TopoUSA At Lwr River Road.jpg. The elevation here is 22.9 feet. (1063 feet from the start.)

So the elevation gain is 7.8 feet in 803 feet (about 1% grade).

I guess the sand forms dunes and is always shifting creating hills and valleys in local areas, but it is hard to imagine anything higher that 30 feet (except at Fazio Brother’s facility).

Sluggo_Monster

REPLY> Super-fine Profiles, Sluggo! I think this clarifies things and is key information.
I think this slope profiles in combination with flow information for the area adjacent to Tina Bar gives us
the dynamics by which money would arrive (and be
held) at Tina Bar, from a hydrological scenario. The
money must not only arrive but stay and be held,
under any hydrological sequence.

When you place the profile of Tina Bar along side
the channel picture with the simplest flow estimation
of this area, it is very easy to see how an object could
wash up at Tina Bar, because Tina Bar turns out to be
a very low elevation sand bar in the traditional sense,
tucked in right up-current from Catapillar Island with
a slow current channel immediately behind it, all in
the current shadow of Frenchman's Bar. It is a natural
feeder scenario for Tina Bar, if you are looking for
a hydrological deposition scenario.

The problem is, retention. Once the bag is deposited
at Tina Bar how does it get retained and covered up
so its not noticed, to be found years later at the depth
the money was found. You have to account for yearly
erosion which leaves the money at the depth it was
found. (Or you have to say it arrived late and was
not subject to much erosion when being discovered
in 1980).

I see the following options: (a) the money was deposited hydrologically in 1971-74 and then covered over by a thin dredge layer which wasted away to
present the conditions found in 1980. To a geologist
it would appear the money was at the top of the dredge layer and not below it because themoney was high enough up on the bar it was not covered by the
thick dredging layer to begin with. (b) the money or
some of it along with some of the container was deposited by the dredging itself in 1974 and wasted
to present the 1980 conditions. (c) the money arrived
after dredging in 1974 and was covered over and
retained by some hydrological event not yet explained
'and not noticed before it was covered over'.

Again I attach a regional map showing basic currents
and the physical structure of the area which in conjunction with your fine profiles present a clearer
picture of the situation at Tina Bar.

Lastly, for me your profiles make a hydrological explanation more viable. In a backward sense however, these profiles also place demands on the flight path and Cooper's bail scenario, it order to make Tina Bar and its nature a more active option in where money would go.

Let me simply post a reworked version of your original
timeline (the FBI map time line). I show the Columbia,
Rataczack's statement, the position of T_Bar, etc.

If Cooper bailed at 20:16 his forward throw brings him
very close to the edge of the Columbia itself, as I
see this. His line of throw is very close to where the flight path crosses the Columbia (which sets up a brand new search area!). And under this scenario
given the physical structures of the Columbia in
this area, and the proximaty of Tina Bar just up
stream, it activates Tina Bar as an area where
something might turn up to be found, especially if
Cooper did not get away clean -

Let me simply post this work and see where it falls -

George.

[snowmman 3]

I've been meaning to comment on Sluggo's timeline.

He didn't say how he created it, but I suspect he stretched and fitted the high resolution flight path map to align to highways and other features in GE and got lat/long that way? I did that also, and got slightly different locations for the stick points. But most not too different.

One in particular, though, seems way off to me. The one at 20:09. I think it's too far South?

Also note that from 20:15 to 20:18, it's hard to see any of the red tic marks. I believe it's reasonable to estimate that the ticks are at the places where the hand drawn line changes direction, especially if it makes sense in terms of estimated speed. Which is what Sluggo appears to have done?

We should also remember the flight path could curve in between any 2 points. Straight line isn't guaranteed. Given what we know about speeds, it's hard to believe there's much curving between points, because the plane wasn't going fast enough for the distances.

I was especially wondering about a curve between 20:15 and 20:16

So we should remember that there is some error introduced by Sluggo's marks also..So there's the initial radar error, the 1971 transposition error to the map, and Sluggo error. (however small)

[mark 107]

Quote

I was surprised at the reference to stainless steel for parachute hardware, as I would have thought it too brittle for life-sustaining use. Maybe it's used in modern times..but looking at Poynter, it seems like the NB-6 probably had some kind of alloy steel, cadmium plated for corrosion? stamped or forged.

skydivers might chime in here...but I think maybe stainless hardware for the 1971 era NB-6 isn't right?

Would the steel have been some kind of cro-moly like 4340? cadmium plated? 4340 would rust without plating.
Poynter also mentions alternate phosphate coating for corrosion.

NB-6 would be cad-plated steel, and yes, it does corrode when the plating wears off. No stainless then. If you wanted bling, you'd have to get your stuff chrome-plated, and hope the plater knew about hydrogen embrittlement. Most fittings would be forged, not stamped. Phosphate finish unlikely, except possibly on the connector links (between risers and canopy suspension lines).

Mark

[1969912 0]

Quote

All,

Here’s a new article and video (from KOMO):

Find the article at: THIS LINK

Find the video at: THIS OTHER LINK

I’ve heard of the book “Legend of D.B. Cooper: Death by Natural Causes, by Ron and Pat Forman” but never gave it much credence.

Ckret, What do you have to say about this? And, what kind of (rookie) agent doesn’t know what “hijacking” means? I thought ALL agents had college degrees.

Sluggo_Monster

Not all that new:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3269280;#3269280

EDIT: Thought you were talking about the book. Anyone read it yet or know any more about it?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

I've been looking thru all available video for more money shots. Even though they are really bad, it's better than nothing.

These are from the 2nd KOIN segment where those guys accused Mayfield (again). I think it aired approx May 14, 2007.

First three show the green table with bundles from the side. (2/12/80)

The last two are very interesting. Shows there are 3 sets of FBI bills. There are two folders. And a 3rd set in plastic bag. This is a more recent photo.

Here's what's new:
-It appears there is at least one more black bill in the 2nd folder. Could be two, although the logo is blocking the view.
-You can see the total count of bills the FBI has.
-Evidently there is something special about the bills in the plastic baggie. So we'll call those "The Secret Bills"

My Count is:
4 (bag)
10-12(new folder)
11-12 (old folder)

The previous number we had from brian's article, was 13 or 14 at the FBI.

This picture shows there is maybe double that?

I'm very intriqued by the new black bills.

The new folder bills look sufficiently different that I don't think the video was doctored in any way.

I'm also intrigued about "why" some bills were plastic bagged at the time of this photo shoot. (not sure when).

(edit) added another "full money" snap without a logo, although the camera was not fully zoomed out, so all bills not visible.

[skyjack71 0]

Who is Agent Furiman? I guess I missed this. Note how all of the men are dressed - so Coopers atire was the norm for the time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

If Cooper bailed at 20:16 his forward throw brings him
very close to the edge of the Columbia itself, as I
see this. His line of throw is very close to where the flight path crosses the Columbia (which sets up a brand new search area!). And under this scenario
given the physical structures of the Columbia in
this area, and the proximaty of Tina Bar just up
stream, it activates Tina Bar as an area where
something might turn up to be found, especially if
Cooper did not get away clean -

You guys keep stretching and stretching the time line - anything you can find that puts Cooper into the water. What I will do is show how the money got there another way thru my experiment that I will conduct. The result will be available by next spring I hope.

There are many things that can affect the money - tides, floods, snowmelts, rains and maybe even transit within the river. I can tell you that Duane had 2 opportunities to put something in the Columbia - one I witnessed the bag floating down the river.

I am putting my money where my mouth is - the FBI has NOT done this and they could have done it in 1980 or in 1996 when I told them how the money got there. BUT, they choose to sit on their duffs and let this be debated till the end of time. This test would NOT have cost much... and maybe have saved the FBI agents a lot of time and grief later...I am sure Carr was on the payroll for his TV interviews as where other agents over the yrs.

I am a simple person and all of this technology is interesting and I can follow it most of the time , I am just going to do the woman thing my way since I haven't received any feed back about my plans to dump some money. Obviously I am the only one interested in how this plays out.

By the time I have my results there will be yet another Wanna Be Book on the market by Galen Cook.

I expect that this last book will get about as much interest as HA HA HA by D.B. Cooper - actually it is an interesting read. There maybe more to that book than anyone knows - the story abiout the shoe shine man and the dog.

Does anyone remember what happend in N.Orleans when Duane I went there in 1981 - there was a story about a search for a shoe shine man who worked in on of the hotels on Bourbon St. - Duane was upset he miss the man. I do not know if he did go back later or not - I do know he went looking for him after he asked about him.

Wonder if this shoe shine man went to N.Orleans from Washington. I asked about this before but no one was interested in finding out who the Shoe Shine man was a the Portland Airport in 1971 and what happened to him.

Fiction, coincidental or inside information from Cooper? Who really wrote that Book - I would love to talk to him.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

I've been meaning to comment on Sluggo's timeline.


One in particular, though, seems way off to me. The one at 20:09. I think it's too far South?

Also note that from 20:15 to 20:18, it's hard to see any of the red tic marks. I believe it's reasonable to estimate that the ticks are at the places where the hand drawn line changes direction, especially if it makes sense in terms of estimated speed. Which is what Sluggo appears to have done?

We should also remember the flight path could curve in between any 2 points. Straight line isn't guaranteed. Given what we know about speeds, it's hard to believe there's much curving between points, because the plane wasn't going fast enough for the distances.

I was especially wondering about a curve between 20:15 and 20:16


REPLY> A couple of comments ..

(a) anything that brings the flight path west favours deposition in the T_Bar area.

Tina Bar became an active ingredient in this case
because circumatances made it an active element.

(b) Posted is the Columbia section from the original FBIMap. Note the shape of the flight path on it vs
Sluggo's at the same area. Notice also the different
topography in the Vancouver Lake to Tina bar area.

• Quote

[georger 247]

You guys keep stretching and stretching the time line - anything you can find that puts Cooper into the water. What I will do is show how the money got there another way thru my experiment that I will conduct. The result will be available by next spring I hope.


REPLY> You dont just drop money into the Columbia
and have it wind up at Tina Bar. Tina Bar requires a
rather specific set of facts before anything can wind
up there.

The money came off a plane through the air, to wind
up at Tina Bar. This involves the flight path.

The money did or did-not enter the water connected to Tina Bar.

Nobody questions the placard at Toutle. Why should
the money at T_Bar be questioned. The flight path connects them both, somehow.

The fact that Duane tossed something into the river.
you say, does not mean it goes to Tina Bar!

Do you understand that all of these gentlemen working
on this problem take this very seriously? These people
have credbility which does not proof.

Thanks,
George

[snowmman 3]

Following georger's image processing lead, I tried playing with the flight path (hi res) in the PDX area to see if I could tease out the radar ticks better.

I settled on splitting out into 4 component color layers, and using the magenta layer.

It seems to me that Sluggo may have missed one tick crossing the Columbia.

The first attachment shows the processed picture, without any added dots and also with dots (blue) that I've added. When you look at where the dots are, in the plain picture, you should be able to see the faint radar ticks (crosses)

also, you can see the hand drawn flight path changing direction at those points.

I also included as a 2nd attachment, the same area/size in the orig hi res scan from Ckret. I couldn't put it on the same image because of size limitations, and I wanted to keep some resolution.

I think what's interesting here, is that 305 seemed to slow down significantly as it crossed the Columbia. Possibly because of nearness to PDX.

The probability of a Columbia or Hayden Island landing probably is related to ground area they occupy, but also plane speed..slower means it's over an area longer.

Sluggo didn't show 2019 and 2020, and I'm suggesting a new 2018 placement here. (along with 2019 and 2020 ticks)

See what you think...

(edit) Actually, those 3 big ticks off to the W seem to align to where I believe the 2018-2020 ticks are? I wonder if they were misdrawn horizontally initially? or something like that. (and not erased).

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

I've been meaning to comment on Sluggo's timeline.


One in particular, though, seems way off to me. The one at 20:09. I think it's too far South?

Also note that from 20:15 to 20:18, it's hard to see any of the red tic marks. I believe it's reasonable to estimate that the ticks are at the places where the hand drawn line changes direction, especially if it makes sense in terms of estimated speed. Which is what Sluggo appears to have done?

We should also remember the flight path could curve in between any 2 points. Straight line isn't guaranteed. Given what we know about speeds, it's hard to believe there's much curving between points, because the plane wasn't going fast enough for the distances.

I was especially wondering about a curve between 20:15 and 20:16


REPLY> A couple of comments ..

(a) anything that brings the flight path west favours deposition in the T_Bar area.

Tina Bar became an active ingredient in this case
because circumatances made it an active element.

(b) Posted is the Columbia section from the original FBIMap. Note the shape of the flight path on it vs
Sluggo's at the same area. Notice also the different
topography in the Vancouver Lake to Tina bar area.

IN ADDITION>>> We went over this before briefly
but never resolved it. Notice the red X's (3 maybe 4)
off to the left hand side of the penciled flight path in
an arc. If the flightpath went through these X's and
he bailed at or just near the Columbia at Vancouver,
now he is bailing at a more oblique angle to the
Columbia - with forward throw and drift he is now
below Tina Bar somewhere around Vancouver Island.

Im posting the Vancouver section again -

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

These are from apparent CBS news archival footage.
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4162542n
(mixed in with new stuff)

The whole video snippet is interesting. You can hear/see Tina speak, You can hear Harold Dwayne Ingram speak. You can see them shovel the loose sand at Tena Bar.

These pictures are interesting as they seem to show the angle of Tena Bar very well. The sand is relatively flat. Not soaking wet...damp, but loose.

Seems to be before the backhoe was brought in..notice they don't have the deep trenches yet.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

IN ADDITION>>> We went over this before briefly
but never resolved it. Notice the red X's (3 maybe 4)
off to the left hand side of the penciled flight path in
an arc. If the flightpath went through these X's and
he bailed at or just near the Columbia at Vancouver,
now he is bailing at a more oblique angle to the
Columbia - with forward throw and drift he is now
below Tina Bar somewhere around Vancouver Island.

Im posting the Vancouver section again -

Yeah, like I said, they line up with what I believe are the 2018-2020 marks on the flight path...just shifted over W by 3 miles or so?
(edit) The 4th seems to align with a 2021 tick that I didn't mark, but seems to be there on the flight path.

When I first saw them, I was thinking predicted LZ. If they suspected Cooper jumped around there, with an East wind, that would make sense. Maybe they just guessed he might have jumped around Portland.?

Or maybe it was additional radar data that was in error by some amount.

This is the first time I'm thinking it's related to in-sync tics on the actual flight path.

Yes it would be odd if the real flight path actually went thru the big ticks. But in my processed jpgs, you can see small tics under the real flight path.

So I dunno. A mystery. A conspiracy. Who knows?

[georger 247]

Quote

Following georger's image processing lead, I tried playing with the flight path (hi res) in the PDX area to see if I could tease out the radar ticks better.

I settled on splitting out into 4 component color layers, and using the magenta layer.

It seems to me that Sluggo may have missed one tick crossing the Columbia.

The first attachment shows the processed picture, without any added dots and also with dots (blue) that I've added. When you look at where the dots are, in the plain picture, you should be able to see the faint radar ticks (crosses)

also, you can see the hand drawn flight path changing direction at those points.

I also included as a 2nd attachment, the same area/size in the orig hi res scan from Ckret. I couldn't put it on the same image because of size limitations, and I wanted to keep some resolution.

I think what's interesting here, is that 305 seemed to slow down significantly as it crossed the Columbia. Possibly because of nearness to PDX.

The probability of a Columbia or Hayden Island landing probably is related to ground area they occupy, but also plane speed..slower means it's over an area longer.

Sluggo didn't show 2019 and 2020, and I'm suggesting a new 2018 placement here. (along with 2019 and 2020 ticks)

See what you think...

(edit) Actually, those 3 big ticks off to the W seem to align to where I believe the 2018-2020 ticks are? I wonder if they were misdrawn horizontally initially? or something like that. (and not erased).

REPLY> I just came back to post about the exact same thing. Posted then read below and here yours is. ESP.

We discussed these tics earlier and Sluggo explained them away, I think, but I cannot remember how they were accounted for. All I do know is if you use these extra tics (the large red tics west of the path) to squew the FP over or merely to gather time, either way now you have potentially put Cooper right at the Columbia or in it, and this makes Rataczack's statement mean
they were right at the Columbia but had not crossed it yet (when they feel the bump).

more tic marks attached