georger 247
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snowmman 3
The DSC (german dub) video was produced by a company called "Creative Differences" in LA, for Discovery.
Rataczak was on this video. I attached a snap of him.
Bill's identified in German around 1:30.
Rataczak said Cooper first asked for wheels down and flaps down, and then 'demanded later' that flaps be at 15 degrees. This is at 2:41 in the youtube video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Hej7Mxvz0
Ckret has said that Cooper only asked for wheels down and flaps down.
The Tosaw account has them going to Cooper for a second question on the flaps, in response to Soderlind's trying to calculate fuel/distance, and getting the 15 degree request. Tosaw evidently interviewed Soderlind..but Soderlind was just on the phone, not on the plane. But Bill was on the plane, and he says there was a 15 degree request, "later".
Bill says about Cooper: "he had done some homework and may even have had some flight time but I don't know"
In the same youtube, Bill repeats the comment
"I think our friend just took leave of us" which I've read elsewhere being attributed to Bill. Here he's saying it in reference to the bump. and putting his fingers on his ears when describing it.
This is at 3:50 in the url above
I've been musing about the 15 degree flaps, because it's been repeated so long. Ckret tried to tell us Cooper didn't ask for 15 degrees. I think maybe Ckret is talking about the first request which is just flaps down, and doesn't have the info about the 2nd request?
Otherwise I can't resolve this. The 15 degree flap request seems real to me.
(edit) The PI who involved with Christiansen said he talked to Rataczak, who brought up the 15 degree issue to dismiss the flight attendant:
http://www.sherlockinvestigations.com/blog/2008/03/db-coopers-money.html
quote
I recently talked with Bill Rataczak, the co-pilot of Flight 305, the Boeing 727 that Cooper hijacked. He told me that Cooper insisted that the wing flaps be tilted 15 degrees, to slow the plane down. "He knew that airplane," he said. ..
endquote
Rataczak was on this video. I attached a snap of him.
Bill's identified in German around 1:30.
Rataczak said Cooper first asked for wheels down and flaps down, and then 'demanded later' that flaps be at 15 degrees. This is at 2:41 in the youtube video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Hej7Mxvz0
Ckret has said that Cooper only asked for wheels down and flaps down.
The Tosaw account has them going to Cooper for a second question on the flaps, in response to Soderlind's trying to calculate fuel/distance, and getting the 15 degree request. Tosaw evidently interviewed Soderlind..but Soderlind was just on the phone, not on the plane. But Bill was on the plane, and he says there was a 15 degree request, "later".
Bill says about Cooper: "he had done some homework and may even have had some flight time but I don't know"
In the same youtube, Bill repeats the comment
"I think our friend just took leave of us" which I've read elsewhere being attributed to Bill. Here he's saying it in reference to the bump. and putting his fingers on his ears when describing it.
This is at 3:50 in the url above
I've been musing about the 15 degree flaps, because it's been repeated so long. Ckret tried to tell us Cooper didn't ask for 15 degrees. I think maybe Ckret is talking about the first request which is just flaps down, and doesn't have the info about the 2nd request?
Otherwise I can't resolve this. The 15 degree flap request seems real to me.
(edit) The PI who involved with Christiansen said he talked to Rataczak, who brought up the 15 degree issue to dismiss the flight attendant:
http://www.sherlockinvestigations.com/blog/2008/03/db-coopers-money.html
quote
I recently talked with Bill Rataczak, the co-pilot of Flight 305, the Boeing 727 that Cooper hijacked. He told me that Cooper insisted that the wing flaps be tilted 15 degrees, to slow the plane down. "He knew that airplane," he said. ..
endquote
QuoteMy reason for saying this is because Nimoy actually interviewed and had people I know on several of his programs, and we were quite happy with his presentation. We thought he was accurate and factual.
But the subject matter was entirely different and had nothing to do with the Cooper case. Editorial oversight is always a concern in media presentations, or it should be...
I think I have mentioned this before, but In Search Of… always did this (from Wikipedia):
Because the show often presented offbeat subjects and controversial theories, each episode's opening credits include a verbal disclaimer about the potentially conjecturable nature of the evidence and theories to be presented:
"This series presents information based in part on theory and conjecture. The producer's purpose is to suggest some possible explanations, but not necessarily the only ones, to the mysteries we will examine."
Nimoy’s personal credibility isn’t the issue… the program (In Search Of…) and all those like it are “entertainment” not “information”.
I wouldn't attempt an investigation based on entertainment.
(Just advice from Ckret's Uncle Sluggo).
Sluggo_Monster
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ltdiver 3
Quote
Wonder if any of the true passengers were ever interviewed by the press...
ltdiver
REPLY> Frankly, yes. One is on YouTube. And not
without issues.
Ckret has remarked about how FBI interviews diverge
(in some cases) from later socalled media interviews...
Guess I should have been more specific when I said "Press". I'm looking for something more credible and not so media-hype. For example, "Walter Cronkite or Dan Rather type" of interview as opposed to "Access Hollywood or Entertainment Tonight" splash. :^)
As to why I questioned the 305 passenger footage, yes it came about when folks started pointing out specifics on the passengers. It led to an uncertainty on who exactly the news was showing and if it had credibility in that portion. If it was for just our viewing pleasure (to lend a bridge to the story-line) then that's all it had to be. However, when specifics were being pulled out and lent to a possible Duane comparison, then it had to be studied further. I believe most here understand that.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
Phone call from China tonight - seems all they are talking about is D.B. Cooper - Folk Hero. I don't understand why it is so popular in China...all these yrs later.
We need to be more specific and make our post shorter - we seem to be boring some of the skyjumpers. They are tiring of the trivia presented by us non-jumpers. The last thing we want to see is the thread locked or put into one of the categories where the old timers do not go
I suggest tightening up the posts and not being so analytical by keeping the input shorter and more to the point.
I understand what they are talking about - First there is a copy of a complete post that made by someone else and then our replies. This makes for long boring repetitive posts. Not all of us are geologists, hydrologists or historians,
We are seeking information and asking for help, but the long posts are driving not only the readers away, but other posters who have something to contribute.
I am asking for suggestions about the money package that I intend to throw in the Columbia - of course I have no idea where it will go or if it will ever be found. I just might be out money.
I need to know what other paper I can put in the package besided the money that will behave the same as paper money...using a fabric laudry maker for the contact information on the $1 bills to be turned in for a bill of a larger denomination. How to go about setting up a P.O. Box or contact point for the reward in WA.?
Help! I might need someone to push a gurney. I might need a pilot before I leave - and a small plane. I need an address in Wa to use.
We need to be more specific and make our post shorter - we seem to be boring some of the skyjumpers. They are tiring of the trivia presented by us non-jumpers. The last thing we want to see is the thread locked or put into one of the categories where the old timers do not go
I suggest tightening up the posts and not being so analytical by keeping the input shorter and more to the point.
I understand what they are talking about - First there is a copy of a complete post that made by someone else and then our replies. This makes for long boring repetitive posts. Not all of us are geologists, hydrologists or historians,
We are seeking information and asking for help, but the long posts are driving not only the readers away, but other posters who have something to contribute.
I am asking for suggestions about the money package that I intend to throw in the Columbia - of course I have no idea where it will go or if it will ever be found. I just might be out money.
I need to know what other paper I can put in the package besided the money that will behave the same as paper money...using a fabric laudry maker for the contact information on the $1 bills to be turned in for a bill of a larger denomination. How to go about setting up a P.O. Box or contact point for the reward in WA.?
Help! I might need someone to push a gurney. I might need a pilot before I leave - and a small plane. I need an address in Wa to use.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
Hi Jo.
What makes people read this thread Jo? I doubt anyone does anyhow.
Do people get emotional about this thing? How come? I'm curious about that because I think it gives some insight into the investigation of this case for the last 37 years.
Maybe people could chime in with thoughts/opinions?
I can imagine there's a separate set of thoughts about outsiders and insiders (skydiving) in this thread, and how it relates to DZ.com. But I figure that's quade's thing. I can understand if the jumpers rally and decide people like me are bad for the site/community. Heck it would be fine for me if there was a banning solely based on community vote...
I find everyone's posts interesting.
You're right that if there's a way to drum up more data, we should figure it out. But who has the data? Isn't the real problem that we need to figure out what we need to drum out of Ckret, and how to get that?
Or is there something else? Is it that we're just trying to find some old timer that's going to read this thread and say ah-hah?
Or are there skydiving cultural things we're upsetting here, that really need to be preserved. I could understand that if so. Or do people like me need to be treated a certain way? Or is it simply that posts > # characters should be not allowed.
Or is this a jumpers' social thread, and people like me don't belong?
Speak freely.
What makes people read this thread Jo? I doubt anyone does anyhow.
Do people get emotional about this thing? How come? I'm curious about that because I think it gives some insight into the investigation of this case for the last 37 years.
Maybe people could chime in with thoughts/opinions?
I can imagine there's a separate set of thoughts about outsiders and insiders (skydiving) in this thread, and how it relates to DZ.com. But I figure that's quade's thing. I can understand if the jumpers rally and decide people like me are bad for the site/community. Heck it would be fine for me if there was a banning solely based on community vote...
I find everyone's posts interesting.
You're right that if there's a way to drum up more data, we should figure it out. But who has the data? Isn't the real problem that we need to figure out what we need to drum out of Ckret, and how to get that?
Or is there something else? Is it that we're just trying to find some old timer that's going to read this thread and say ah-hah?
Or are there skydiving cultural things we're upsetting here, that really need to be preserved. I could understand that if so. Or do people like me need to be treated a certain way? Or is it simply that posts > # characters should be not allowed.
Or is this a jumpers' social thread, and people like me don't belong?
Speak freely.
georger 247
QuoteHi Jo.
What makes people read this thread Jo? I doubt anyone does anyhow.
Do people get emotional about this thing? How come? I'm curious about that because I think it gives some insight into the investigation of this case for the last 37 years.
Maybe people could chime in with thoughts/opinions?
I can imagine there's a separate set of thoughts about outsiders and insiders (skydiving) in this thread, and how it relates to DZ.com. But I figure that's quade's thing. I can understand if the jumpers rally and decide people like me are bad for the site/community. Heck it would be fine for me if there was a banning solely based on community vote...
I find everyone's posts interesting.
You're right that if there's a way to drum up more data, we should figure it out. But who has the data? Isn't the real problem that we need to figure out what we need to drum out of Ckret, and how to get that?
REPLY> Your YouTube link was interesting.
Obviously its still a media 'opportunity'. I want to assure Sluggo, Investigations cannot rely on entertainment any more than a train can run on marshmellows!
It's funny how the media is never around when there
is a calf to pull out of the thicket or the bog, in the
middle of the wilderness.
George -
QuoteIt's funny how the media is never around when there is a calf to pull out of the thicket or the bog, in the middle of the wilderness.
George -
The (legitimate) media may be around more than you think. Hardly a week goes by that I am not contacted by someone preparing and article, book, or film. There may be members of the “media” posting here today for all we know. I would bet the same is true (maybe more so) for Ckret.
Sluggo_Monster
PS: No... I'm not a member of the legitimate media... Just an old man with a web-site and a passion to help solve an old crime.
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NORJAK Forum
Ckret 0
Sluggo
It's going to start happening more and more. I get calls from all over the world about this case and I now send them to your web site. Soon you will be very busy. In fact I know of one outlet that is thinking of doing a feature piece on our efforts. Once that happens your site will crash from all the hits.
It's going to start happening more and more. I get calls from all over the world about this case and I now send them to your web site. Soon you will be very busy. In fact I know of one outlet that is thinking of doing a feature piece on our efforts. Once that happens your site will crash from all the hits.
Orange1 0
QuoteWe need to be more specific and make our post shorter - we seem to be boring some of the skyjumpers. They are tiring of the trivia presented by us non-jumpers. The last thing we want to see is the thread locked or put into one of the categories where the old timers do not go
I suggest tightening up the posts and not being so analytical by keeping the input shorter and more to the point.
I understand what they are talking about - First there is a copy of a complete post that made by someone else and then our replies. This makes for long boring repetitive posts. Not all of us are geologists, hydrologists or historians,
Jo, you clearly didn't read properly what their issues are. They are not bored by long posts with replies on geological etc issues. They are irritated with people who ignore the facts that they present and to be honest, I can sometimes see their point. I don't see for example why you are so keen to keep the oldtimers reading this thread when you have dismissed just about every post one of them has made because it doesn't fit the Duane theory. Or like when others dismiss posts by experienced 727 jumpers because they don't tally with their own conjecture about what it might be like. That is why the oldtimers get pissed.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
I have two (more) hijacks with jumps to talk about. There seems to be a lot more than I realized.
1) Frederick W. Hahneman (49) U.S start but Honduras jump.
2) Heady (22) vietnam vet and sport parachutist. I had never heard of Heady before. Heady hijacked and jumped in Reno. (caught right away). Will post later on Heady.
First Hahneman. He's interesting because of his age (49) and background (engineer).
Hahneman, May 6, 1972, successfully jumped in Honduras, after starting in PA.. Got $303,000. Caught because someone tipped? (unclear). The whole hijack took 21 hours. (edit) 727. kept 48 of 90 passengers as hostages.
(edit) Hahneman was American citizen born in Honduras. Puerto Castilla. Honduran mother. Father of German "extraction". Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II.
(edit) He also demanded two cartons of Benson & Hedges cigarettes, fuel, bush knives, jump suits and crash helmets. He traded the mostly $100 bills when they landed again after 5 hours, for larger $500 and $1000 bills. DZ was suspected to be near San Pedro Sula, in the jungle about 20 miles from the Caribbean coast.
Hahneman was an electronics engineer. 49 years old. 10,000 posters were distributed with composite sketches in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatamela, and British Honduras. A tipster apparently got $25,000 reward, although FBI also said they used testimony from plane witnesses. Hahneman turned himself in to US Embassy official, requesting asylum and return to U.S, after they identified him and his family.
Hijacked Eastern Air Lines jet (727). Flight was from Allentown, Pennsylvania to Washington National Airport. He wears glasses. Photo attached. Evidently had a pistol.
Landed at Washington D.C. Got money and six parachutes. Returned to Dulles Airport where he asked for the money to be exchanged for bills of larger denomination.
Then they had to land at New Orleans because of mechanical problem and he transferred to another jet.
Hahneman initially said the money wouldn't be recovered, and he had sent it to "the Bank of Communist China in Hong Kong". But the FBI apparently eventually recovered it from Northern Honduras. Money recovery was reported 5/9/73.
ps. Another hijack around the time of Hahneman's capture: two supposed Black Panthers hijacked a plane to Algeria, and got $500,000 in ransom. Holder described himself as a helicoptor pilot. Plane was going from LA to Seattle. Collected money in San Francisco. 727. No jump though.
1) Frederick W. Hahneman (49) U.S start but Honduras jump.
2) Heady (22) vietnam vet and sport parachutist. I had never heard of Heady before. Heady hijacked and jumped in Reno. (caught right away). Will post later on Heady.
First Hahneman. He's interesting because of his age (49) and background (engineer).
Hahneman, May 6, 1972, successfully jumped in Honduras, after starting in PA.. Got $303,000. Caught because someone tipped? (unclear). The whole hijack took 21 hours. (edit) 727. kept 48 of 90 passengers as hostages.
(edit) Hahneman was American citizen born in Honduras. Puerto Castilla. Honduran mother. Father of German "extraction". Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II.
(edit) He also demanded two cartons of Benson & Hedges cigarettes, fuel, bush knives, jump suits and crash helmets. He traded the mostly $100 bills when they landed again after 5 hours, for larger $500 and $1000 bills. DZ was suspected to be near San Pedro Sula, in the jungle about 20 miles from the Caribbean coast.
Hahneman was an electronics engineer. 49 years old. 10,000 posters were distributed with composite sketches in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatamela, and British Honduras. A tipster apparently got $25,000 reward, although FBI also said they used testimony from plane witnesses. Hahneman turned himself in to US Embassy official, requesting asylum and return to U.S, after they identified him and his family.
Hijacked Eastern Air Lines jet (727). Flight was from Allentown, Pennsylvania to Washington National Airport. He wears glasses. Photo attached. Evidently had a pistol.
Landed at Washington D.C. Got money and six parachutes. Returned to Dulles Airport where he asked for the money to be exchanged for bills of larger denomination.
Then they had to land at New Orleans because of mechanical problem and he transferred to another jet.
Hahneman initially said the money wouldn't be recovered, and he had sent it to "the Bank of Communist China in Hong Kong". But the FBI apparently eventually recovered it from Northern Honduras. Money recovery was reported 5/9/73.
ps. Another hijack around the time of Hahneman's capture: two supposed Black Panthers hijacked a plane to Algeria, and got $500,000 in ransom. Holder described himself as a helicoptor pilot. Plane was going from LA to Seattle. Collected money in San Francisco. 727. No jump though.
snowmman 3
More details about Hahneman.
Wife was "blind". Two sons, 17 and 21.
He stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months, even years at a time.
(Easton PA).
Neighbors thought he must have had a diplomatic position. Wife never talked about husband. Neighbor drove her to bank to cash husband's paycheck which came in the mail.
William Small, a neighbor said:
"One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix. he talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopters"
Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position. He was always well dressed"
They said he didn't have any friends there, and non one ever knew him. Neighbors always thought he was mysterious.
This is all interesting, because there's a number of these hijacks where the guys have families. While Himmelsbach's criminal profile fits for some hijacks, it doesn't fit for others. Some were "average", normal?
(edit) No details on any jumping background. Maybe he had none, like McNally? (edit) added this detail above: Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II. Not sure about jumping background.
(edit) Obviously an (unlikely) question would be: why is he not Cooper? Ckret: was Hahneman ruled out? Don't have full physical description of him. Age + smoker + the picture above looks interesting for facial + flight crew background?
Wife was "blind". Two sons, 17 and 21.
He stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months, even years at a time.
(Easton PA).
Neighbors thought he must have had a diplomatic position. Wife never talked about husband. Neighbor drove her to bank to cash husband's paycheck which came in the mail.
William Small, a neighbor said:
"One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix. he talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopters"
Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position. He was always well dressed"
They said he didn't have any friends there, and non one ever knew him. Neighbors always thought he was mysterious.
This is all interesting, because there's a number of these hijacks where the guys have families. While Himmelsbach's criminal profile fits for some hijacks, it doesn't fit for others. Some were "average", normal?
(edit) No details on any jumping background. Maybe he had none, like McNally? (edit) added this detail above: Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II. Not sure about jumping background.
(edit) Obviously an (unlikely) question would be: why is he not Cooper? Ckret: was Hahneman ruled out? Don't have full physical description of him. Age + smoker + the picture above looks interesting for facial + flight crew background?
377 22
QuoteSluggo
It's going to start happening more and more. I get calls from all over the world about this case and I now send them to your web site. Soon you will be very busy. In fact I know of one outlet that is thinking of doing a feature piece on our efforts. Once that happens your site will crash from all the hits.
I want autographs before all you guys become famous and start charging for them. Ckret is already famous, but the other heavy hitters on this forum are about to have their 15 minutes of fame.
I think we are all underestimating the level of continuing public interest in the Cooper case. The wedding I was at last weekend had a lot of farmers from rural Kentucky who are hardly Cooper buffs, but they all knew about Cooper, the latest developments such as the chute find, and got into a really spirited discussion about the case, who Cooper might have been and whether he lived or died. I did not start the Cooper conversation. It got started by someone talking about my skydiving and it just went right into Cooper without me pushing it one bit.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Georger, Snowmman, Sluggo,
Can you post an enhanced jpg of the stained bill that best highlights the shapes of the rust stains? Is the false color one that Geroger posted optimal for showing shape? The symmetrical nature of some stains suggests contact with a manufactured steel item. I want to see if I can match it up with anything that might have been on an NB 6 rig. It is a super longshot but easy to do.
Thanks.
377
Can you post an enhanced jpg of the stained bill that best highlights the shapes of the rust stains? Is the false color one that Geroger posted optimal for showing shape? The symmetrical nature of some stains suggests contact with a manufactured steel item. I want to see if I can match it up with anything that might have been on an NB 6 rig. It is a super longshot but easy to do.
Thanks.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
[deferring the info on the Heady jump for a little bit]
Norjak. Good book so far. Has it's weaknesses. Can see most of the info is just from the transcripts.
But also see how Himmelsbach's book (had coauthor) created some of the myths.
There are some details that might be worth discussing. (not finished yet)
Sluggo: there is more detail on all the planes apparently involved in chase that night. (some after Portland). T-33 trainer w/contact is true (later). There was also another pair of fighters (F-102's) dispatched but no contact.
And Himmelsbach was on the Huey. There are more details/names/places if you're interested.
Handedness: Although it may be myth, the description of Cooper around the ticket agent has Cooper holding the briefcase in his left hand as he pays for the ticket. (p. 13). This says to me that Cooper might be right handed? Not sure if this is "made-up" detail or real testimony from the agent (They name the ticket agent). The brief case is displayed after a question about need to check-in any baggage. No paper bag mentioned then? So maybe paper bag was a airport purchase as I was wondering? Or maybe this is made-up testimony?
Cut up chute: In this book, they say the Pioneer chute was opened and had two lines cut. That's bizarre, since we're told (and shown) that one of the reserves was left behind and had lines cut. Assuming this is just an error. (pp 48-49)
Flying Actually East: the book mentions the idea that the plane was actually flying east of where they initially thought. They're referring to a figure that has V23 on it when this statement is made. I wonder if this really refers to being east of the V23 airway...which the flight was, as we know.
Interestingly, most of Ckret's comments about the planned early jump near Seattle theory, seem to be just what Himmelsbach says in the Norjak book?
Attached is a new picture (from the book) of the bundles recovered by Ingram on the well known table. It's a better b/w top shot than the AP b/w top shot.
Gives us a little more detail to add to existing bundle shots.
(edit) The McNally hijack is mentioned in the Norjak book. That surprised me. I'll have to see how many of the other parachute jump hijacks are mentioned. It must be in the case file then. So Ckret must have known about it. He played dumb when we first discussed it and Sluggo berated him.
Norjak. Good book so far. Has it's weaknesses. Can see most of the info is just from the transcripts.
But also see how Himmelsbach's book (had coauthor) created some of the myths.
There are some details that might be worth discussing. (not finished yet)
Sluggo: there is more detail on all the planes apparently involved in chase that night. (some after Portland). T-33 trainer w/contact is true (later). There was also another pair of fighters (F-102's) dispatched but no contact.
And Himmelsbach was on the Huey. There are more details/names/places if you're interested.
Handedness: Although it may be myth, the description of Cooper around the ticket agent has Cooper holding the briefcase in his left hand as he pays for the ticket. (p. 13). This says to me that Cooper might be right handed? Not sure if this is "made-up" detail or real testimony from the agent (They name the ticket agent). The brief case is displayed after a question about need to check-in any baggage. No paper bag mentioned then? So maybe paper bag was a airport purchase as I was wondering? Or maybe this is made-up testimony?
Cut up chute: In this book, they say the Pioneer chute was opened and had two lines cut. That's bizarre, since we're told (and shown) that one of the reserves was left behind and had lines cut. Assuming this is just an error. (pp 48-49)
Flying Actually East: the book mentions the idea that the plane was actually flying east of where they initially thought. They're referring to a figure that has V23 on it when this statement is made. I wonder if this really refers to being east of the V23 airway...which the flight was, as we know.
Interestingly, most of Ckret's comments about the planned early jump near Seattle theory, seem to be just what Himmelsbach says in the Norjak book?
Attached is a new picture (from the book) of the bundles recovered by Ingram on the well known table. It's a better b/w top shot than the AP b/w top shot.
Gives us a little more detail to add to existing bundle shots.
(edit) The McNally hijack is mentioned in the Norjak book. That surprised me. I'll have to see how many of the other parachute jump hijacks are mentioned. It must be in the case file then. So Ckret must have known about it. He played dumb when we first discussed it and Sluggo berated him.
377 22
Why are the ends of the bills quite rounded and the sides of the decomposing bills staying relatively straight?
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuoteSluggo: there is more detail on all the planes apparently involved in chase that night. (some after Portland). T-33 trainer w/contact is true (later). There was also another pair of fighters (F-102's) dispatched but no contact.
Were F 106s mentioned? They had SAGE gear (Hughes MA-1) aboard. I don't think Deuces (F 102s) did.
Guess what Dunce flew a Deuce? W himself. That is on those rare occasions when he decided to report for duty.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteWhy are the ends of the bills quite rounded and the sides of the decomposing bills staying relatively straight?
377
Well the corners have decomposition effects coming from two near edges, right? Sides, just one edge. Edge is most exposed to microbial action? (oxygen needs?) You could probably model this as the effect on a point, given distance from an edge.
bundle top and bottom bills should have additional face/bottom wear beyond edge effects?
also note some sides still have the brittle paper on them...not broke off.
Remember: we have 3 stages of deterioration depending on the picture we look at:
1) as found
2) Ingram handling
3) 28 years of FBI storage.
I was wondering if ALL the bills had the brittle edges when found, and they broke off due to the Ingrams (they had them 1-2 days before FBI got them?)
I'm also wondering how much of the blackness/purpleness was present on 2/12/80 and how much appeared over the next 28 years.
Note that none of the bills seen in the bundle photos are really black.
We're told the 12 mini-bundles assemble into 3 bundles. While you can see how some should stack, it's unclear in full.
My theory is that the black bills were all bottom-of-bundle bills, so are not visible in the 2/12/80 bundle photos.
snowmman 3
Quote
Were F 106s mentioned? They had SAGE gear (Hughes MA-1) aboard. I don't think Deuces (F 102s) did.
Guess what Dunce flew a Deuce? W himself. That is on those rare occasions when he decided to report for duty.
377
we're correct on all the previous F-106 detail. that's as stated on Sluggo's site. (377: I mentioned before how apparently the F-106 were pretty bad at downward radar in a cluttered terrain scenario. Do you know any more about that? And no doppler radar? I took that all to mean that any F-106 painting of 305 was pretty poor)
The F-102's were additionally dispatched from Idaho Air National Guard, from Boise. But they didn't make contact.
The T33 trainer jet was diverted to follow.
Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump.
Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot.
Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305....
They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact.
Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls.
They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.
377 22
Quotewe're correct on all the previous F-106 detail. that's as stated on Sluggo's site. (377: I mentioned before how apparently the F-106 were pretty bad at downward radar in a cluttered terrain scenario. Do you know any more about that? And no doppler radar? I took that all to mean that any F-106 painting of 305 was pretty poor
The F 106 was not designed to do look down shoot down fighter to fighter dogfight stuff but to be an air defense interceptor. It relied much more on the SAGE ground radars than its own for vectoring to incoming bombers. If it was looking up or straight ahead it should have been able to paint the 727 with its radar even without any Doppler filtering. It would have a tough time seeing anything in a look down situation.
Some F 106 models did have an IRST (infra red search and track) module which didn't give an image but did give an indication that it was seeing a hot exhaust and from approximately where. A 727 being chased from behind should have been a great IR target, especially if looking ahead and not down towards hot ground targets like chimneys etc . The IRST was on top of the fuselage ahead of the cockpit so it was not a look down device either unless the F 106 was diving.
You have to be careful about Doppler filtering. If the F 106 was matching the 727 speed there would be no Doppler shift in the 727 echo from the F 106 radar. Doppler works a lot better with stationary ground radar where you dont have to worry about relative motion, just any motion.
I still wonder about the raw non SAGE ATC radar tapes. They are always preserved after an accident or incident. Were they looked at? Good chance Cooper's exit echo was on one.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
See, the point is, in 1971 they were shooting hijackers. Think about that, and the jump is obviously just a small part of the overall risk. And you can see maybe why Cooper decided 'no gun'.
REPLY> Im not convinced he didnt have a pistol on
him or in his brown paper bag. If he did he may have
tossed the pistol in with the money - its a possible
item to keep in mind.
He reduced his exposure but he was also amazingly
open inside the plane, as I see it. We know there
were FBI personnel ready at both Seattle and Reno.
He got very upset toward the end, at the time delay
on the ground at SEA. He was ready to bail asap after
Seattle. He wasnt going to risk landing a second time.
Why didnt he hijack in Montana vs in Washington
State?
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