DB Cooper

[happythoughts 0]

In order for the metal on the rig to leave a rust stain on the money, the money would have to lay fairly still on the metallic part for a sufficient amount of time for the stain to soak in.

How would it come in contact with the rig?
Wasn't the money in some type of container and then tied to the persons body or the rig?

The metallic piece would have to be on the container.
Either the briefcase or reserve container.

Next, the money would have to lay relatively still for a long time for the rust to leech in.

The container would not even have to remain attached to the rig. It could be lost on exit, or not.

---
Reserve parachute removed from reserve container.
Money stuffed into reserve container and tied with line.
Reserve container lands in tree.
Reserve container has steel grommets which rust over time.
Container eventually floats downstream and rips, spilling money.
---

Or, it's just not rust.

[ltdiver 3]

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Or, it's just not rust.

Wonder if that ring stain might have come from the bottom of DB's bourbon glass? About the right size... What color is bourbon when it stains material?

http://www.fotosearch.com/BDX178/bxp33988/

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I also find it interesting that just south of Orchards at "RGREEN" they swing wide, west of PDX, as if to avoid it. And does this depart from where you would expect them to go, given their previous path along V23 - in some meaningful manner?

No it does not depart from where I think they would go.

I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg]

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[happythoughts 0]

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Or, it's just not rust.

Wonder if that ring stain might have come from the bottom of DB's bourbon glass? About the right size... What color is bourbon when it stains material?

http://www.fotosearch.com/BDX178/bxp33988/

ltdiver

Well, it actually makes more sense than some rust that instantaneously formed during the 15 seconds that it never touched the rig.

Anyway, bourbon should be part of any good conversation.

Beer is for people who don't like to drink, they just want to smell bad. Bourbon is actually enjoying it slowly.

[georger 247]

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In order for the metal on the rig to leave a rust stain on the money, the money would have to lay fairly still on the metallic part for a sufficient amount of time for the stain to soak in.

How would it come in contact with the rig?
Wasn't the money in some type of container and then tied to the persons body or the rig?

The metallic piece would have to be on the container.
Either the briefcase or reserve container.

Next, the money would have to lay relatively still for a long time for the rust to leech in.

The container would not even have to remain attached to the rig. It could be lost on exit, or not.

---
Reserve parachute removed from reserve container.
Money stuffed into reserve container and tied with line.
Reserve container lands in tree.
Reserve container has steel grommets which rust over time.
Container eventually floats downstream and rips, spilling money.
---

Or, it's just not rust.

REPLY> No, it has all the traits of ferrous oxide. Here are some other examples of rust on paper... but you are correct; it could be any piece of iron or steel that was in the debris at the site. I can hardly
believe when they excavated the site metal wasnt found? We also have this fact of iron in the ink of
this currency and Im just not sure what role if any
that has to do with this situation.

The common experience in life is rusted paper clips
leaving a rust stains on paper. I have examples in my files from years ago. It doesnt take very long for
metal to leave a rust stain on paper due to the
absorbancy of paper if rust is in contact with the
paper.

Snowmman has also wondered about the black on
these bills. Ferrous oxide in concentrated form is
black. Now, I am not saying the black on these bills
is concentrate ferrous oxide but it is a possibility.
The redder more orange-red stains are what we more commonly associate with rust. There are different kinds of ferrous rust - each with its own
characteristic colour and spectrum.

Snowmman has wondered if the black bills were bottom bills. Well they might be. Iron leaching from currency ink through cycle of dampness over time might very well leave the bills at the bottom of the piles black with concenrate ferrous oxide, but ... until an examination is made this is all conjecture.

And I keep repeating, is there rust on one bill, many bills, all the bills ? I do not know. My expectation is
there is ferrous contamination on all of the bills simply due to the iron content in ink, but beyond
that we are speculating...

These answers will come in time, one way or another.

We had some discussion here earlier about rust on
parachute fittings and there was pro and con on the
subject. Very likely all issues can be settle when and if the stains on these bills are ever tested because
that will identify in very specific terms the kind and
nature of the rust(s) which may be involved. This
could rule out NB6 parts or not. It could also point
to a 'bed spring' buried at Tina Bar!

How does metal get to Tina Bar? Obviously it could
get there by any number of means which also includes the dredging of '74 which undoubtedly
spewed out metal parts along with everything else,
everywhere the dredge operation placed its debris.
I would suppose there is a lot of metal on the bottom of the Columbia especially in areas where
heavier debris can settle out to be silted over.

But Tina Bar is also near a farm and sand pit operation.

When the nature of the rust is known then a few answers hopfully will be forthcoming.

Keep looking for photos of money with more rust
stains!

Ive decided to post a number of photos of rust on currency etc. And one special photo for Snowmman showing black ferrous oxide - on manilla poster board. The artist? thought this was cool? (I
think it sucks! Art this is not, but I post it as an example of black ferrous oxide which it is).

Georger

[georger 247]

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I also find it interesting that just south of Orchards at "RGREEN" they swing wide, west of PDX, as if to avoid it. And does this depart from where you would expect them to go, given their previous path along V23 - in some meaningful manner?

No it does not depart from where I think they would go.

I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg]

Sluggo_Monster

REPLY> Ok. I assume you mean getting back
to V23 after the turn south of BTGVOR ?

I wont post the layer images - seems superfluous.

Thanks -

George

[georger 247]

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Or, it's just not rust.

Wonder if that ring stain might have come from the bottom of DB's bourbon glass? About the right size... What color is bourbon when it stains material?

http://www.fotosearch.com/BDX178/bxp33988/

ltdiver

I dont think it is rust from the rig - wrong kind of metal/rust - just looking at it. Just looking at it, its
more of a soluable Fe iron rust, soft iron. Maybe a
leaf spring from a '34 Ford buried at Tina Bar, or a
boat or implement part.?







Well, it actually makes more sense than some rust that instantaneously formed during the 15 seconds that it never touched the rig.

Anyway, bourbon should be part of any good conversation.

Beer is for people who don't like to drink, they just want to smell bad. Bourbon is actually enjoying it slowly.

[skyjack71 0]

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That is not certain at all. Information
earlier (in these and other pages) suggested the
butts were returned to Reno after analysis and are still at Reno in storage, somewhere. Ckret spoke
to this long ago.

That IS NOT what Agent Ralph Hope and Ckret have admitted they do NOT know where the butts are - it stand to reason - if they did they could have produced them long ago and the DNA would have been extracted from those rather than a tie they are not certain belonged to Cooper.

If that is the truth - then this is the most inept FBI that has ever existed. It means I have been lied to by FBI agent Ralph Hope and his superior.

If that is true then why don't they produce the only valid evidence that they have that can conclude the DNA of Cooper?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

okay, we've got a lot of confusion, I think.

there was some dialog introduced way back, that suggested that maybe the 2nd chest pack was used as a money container on the jump in some way, as opposed to just having the money bag tied on.

I think that was kind of weak, and is probably myth. I know I reported the Scott story that was odd, but I'm assuming that it was just wrong (Scott didn't see anyhow?) If Cooper did use a chest container for money on the jump, what happened to the 2nd chest canopy? It would have to be removed, and probably should have been on the plane (with the other one?).

I think the story of Cooper trying to get the money into the chest that was found open, might make sense. But he didn't take that chest with him.

So the money was probably just in the money bag.

Now the problem with rust, is that the money bag was supposed to stay intact, to protect the money over the years, and also "disperse" it in a physically close way on Tina Bar.

The money bag supposedly didn't have any eyelets for drawstring at the top. Just open bag. So it wouldn't cause rust.

If the bag is holding together to provide the protection/localization of bundles, then it's also likely protecting against rust from random metal stuff, until the deposit on Tina Bar?

If it is indeed rust, then it tears apart a bunch of other theorizing about the money, I think. Unless metal existed under the money on Tena Bar.

I had a thought it could be from metal rimmed sunglasses. But I doubt cooper would have stuck them in with the money? Also the rims were probably plastic.

Also, I'm thinking the black is from chemicals in the silt in the Columbia, not just from the bills.

(edit) the ends of the theorized #6 dry cell sort of match the circle diameter also. But unlikely to be mixed with the money.

[skyjack71 0]

In reference to the LOST BUTTS:
I really hope everyone is reading this:

It has been implied that Agent Carr (Ckret) has stated that the cigarette butts have not been lost.
Why would the FBI take an item that has multiple particial DNA to include or exclude a suspect when they have the Butts at their disposal. Gimme a break!

If these butts are in Reno then they need to produce them NOW and not another 30 some odd yrs from now.

Ckret now is the time to speak the truth or forever hold your piece - and a definite apology is owed to me by the FBI.

Besides the tie there is a watch that need explaining -
ONE black faced:

You guys might know the significance of this watch but the FBI should. NO, Cooper was NOT reported to be wearing a watch, but not many people owned such a watch in 1968. Just another souvenier tucked away in a safe deposit box...and something else I told the FBI in 1996.


By the way - WHY CKRET? have you NEVER posted a close-up of the actual tie clip and not the bar you produce so elegantly? After all it is just an ordinary tie clip - so why can't everyone see a really good picture of it - like you did the bar clip.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Now the problem with rust, is that the money bag was supposed to stay intact, to protect the money over the years, and also "disperse" it in a physically close way on Tina Bar.

The money bag supposedly didn't have any eyelets for drawstring at the top. Just open bag. So it wouldn't cause rust.

If the bag is holding together to provide the protection/localization of bundles, then it's also likely protecting against rust from random metal stuff, until the deposit on Tina Bar?

If it is indeed rust, then it tears apart a bunch of other theorizing about the money, I think. Unless metal existed under the money on Tena Bar.

Also, I'm thinking the black is from chemicals in the silt in the Columbia, not just from the bills.

REPLY>

We dont know what event(s) deposited the money (and other debris) at T_Bar, or in what state, beyond a dredging in late 1974.

We also have only one clearcut example of rust on
a bill so far, to my eyes. One is not a significant sample that speaks for the whole group unless
there is something very special about this bill and
we are exceptionally lucky.

[skyjack71 0]

QUESTION:

What happens to a Gyromatic when you are flying near the BTG VOR under 10,000 ft.??????????

Since the gyroscope is used in guidance systems I want to hear what the two of you have to say about this...as I am sure between the two of you I will get a good answer.

377 - you were very interested in Duane's knowledge of CB's in a PM.
Could not a gyroscope fit into this in another way.......? A simple watch may be how he knew when the plane was approaching the VOR.

With the expandable band it would have been high up under his jacket sleeve to avoid detection or in his pocket if it needed to have been held in a certain way. There was no mention by the stewardess of Cooper wearing a watch or looking at a watch...I find that ODD.

This man might have been facing his last hours on this earth and he ddidn't look to see what time it was or how long he was on the ground or how long it was taking to refuel. Something is missing - he had to have a way to tell time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

I realize that it is extremely unlikely that the bill has an NB 6 hardware rust stain, but look at the fitting to which the chest strap clip attaches. It is not shown in detail but has similar shape to the stain and the size looks close.

An old car part is a more likely explanation,but let's look all the fittings over carefully before we rule out NB 6.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

QUESTION:

What happens to a Gyromatic when you are flying near the BTG VOR under 10,000 ft.??????????

Since the gyroscope is used in guidance systems I want to hear what the two of you have to say about this...as I am sure between the two of you I will get a good answer.

377 - you were very interested in Duane's knowledge of CB's in a PM.
Could not a gyroscope fit into this in another way.......? A simple watch may be how he knew when the plane was approaching the VOR.

With the expandable band it would have been high up under his jacket sleeve to avoid detection or in his pocket if it needed to have been held in a certain way. There was no mention by the stewardess of Cooper wearing a watch or looking at a watch...I find that ODD.

This man might have been facing his last hours on this earth and he ddidn't look to see what time it was or how long he was on the ground or how long it was taking to refuel. Something is missing - he had to have a way to tell time.

Jo,

A VOR transmitter would have absolutely no perceivable effect on a gyro or any other mechanical instrument at those distances or even at much closer ranges.

The CB angle interested me because it gave a pre-cell phone means for Cooper to communicate with others after landing. I got 10 miles with a 100 mw (one tenth of a watt) CB walkie talkie in the 1960s when talking to a friend who was on a hilltop that was in my line of sight. The signal was 100% readable. We communicated with ease.

I don't think the watch issue is a big deal. With all the turns, Cooper would have a very tough time doing dead reckoning nav even if he also had a compass. A watch wouldn't have helped that much. He was too busy preparing to jump to do any serious navigation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Jo,

While you might have some valid criticisms of how the investigation was handled, you imply coverup rather than error. Please tell us why you think the FBI would conceal Cooper's identity? I can't come up with a plausible explanation why they would do that, especially after so many years. Sometimes ID evidence is not promptly revealed because it would compromise an ongoing investigation involving others, but that could hardly be true here.

This is an old case and a very notorious one. Fame awaits for whoever solves it. Why would Ckret not want to solve it if he could? Please tell us your theory.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman,

We know Cooper had the money bag tied to himself in some fashion when the plane left Seattle (I believed clipped on the NB6 harness). Any talk about Cooper actually using a belly reserve container for the money would be baseless because no one witnessed it. We do know he considered using the container left on the plane but changed his mind when the money would not fit.

[happythoughts 0]

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Any talk about Cooper actually using a belly reserve container for the money would be baseless because no one witnessed it.

"...because no one witnessed it."

That sums up about 98% of this.

Nobody saw him -
attach anything to himself.
exit the a/c.
land.
live/die.

We don't know -
his actual experience level.
his landing area.

It is all speculation.

You stated that you believe he clipped it on the harness. What is your basis for this?

Using parachute line to tie on a bag is equally, or more, plausible. Using the tools at hand.

There were experienced skydivers who did an approximate recreation (no rain, terrain, daylight) for the FBI and then provided written reports to the FBI about probable methods and results. You should review those documents.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman,

We know Cooper had the money bag tied to himself in some fashion when the plane left Seattle (I believed clipped on the NB6 harness). Any talk about Cooper actually using a belly reserve container for the money would be baseless because no one witnessed it. We do know he considered using the container left on the plane but changed his mind when the money would not fit.

thanks. Yes that's the story I remember you giving way back when. We kind of started diverging from that with talk of the a container on the jump, and I just wanted to clarify that there's nothing to suggest that scenario.

[georger 247]

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I realize that it is extremely unlikely that the bill has an NB 6 hardware rust stain, but look at the fitting to which the chest strap clip attaches. It is not shown in detail but has similar shape to the stain and the size looks close.

An old car part is a more likely explanation,but let's look all the fittings over carefully before we rule out NB 6.

377

I have had the same thoughts - believe me, no stone will be unturned if I can help it.

I have monitored & recorded your thoughts very closely. I keep a daily diary of this whole matter.
The possibility of it being NB6 parts is very much on
my mind - that is why I described the shape as
roughly '2/3rds of a U-bolt', in other words, a piece
of "hardware". Fittings, parts, etc all play into the picture. I seriously doubt these rust deposits are from iron in the ink on the bills - the stains are
another form of ferrous oxide (possibly a hydrated form). This is what I mean when I say there are different kinds of rust, because in reality, thereare.
Its chemistry.

But, one bill is not a statistical sample. Its one bill
so far. Maybe all of the bills show rust intrusions
and I just have lousy photos Im working with - who knows.

Im not closed minded int his affair. Im very open minded. For all I know its rust from a bed spring,
a revolver, Snowmman suggest wire rim glasses,
or maybe some part the Fazios threw on the beach.
Who knows.

All I can say is Imnot surprised. This is a sandbar.
A debris collection site. All manner of stuff comes down the Columbia to get deposited. Should anyone be surprised there would be articles that rust?

But is it something that could only have come from the bottom. If that is the case now we are talking about dredging and that dredge layer. We know,
at least we think, the money lay atop the dredge layer (re- Leonard Palmer phD geologist) but where at the top? In the top layer, clearly above the top layer?

These and other questions must be raised in order to make headway in this matter. I merely point this out -


Again I put out the call: any photos of money with suspicious traits - POST EM!
Georger

[georger 247]

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Quote

Any talk about Cooper actually using a belly reserve container for the money would be baseless because no one witnessed it.

"...because no one witnessed it."

That sums up about 98% of this.

Nobody saw him -
attach anything to himself.
exit the a/c.
land.
live/die.

We don't know -
his actual experience level.
his landing area.

It is all speculation.

You stated that you believe he clipped it on the harness. What is your basis for this?


REPLY> Tina saw him cut lines and tie the
container off at the top, then make a loop like a
hand hold, and then tying the container around
his waste ... all posted before by Ckret, I believe.

• Quote

[georger 247]

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I also find it interesting that just south of Orchards at "RGREEN" they swing wide, west of PDX, as if to avoid it. And does this depart from where you would expect them to go, given their previous path along V23 - in some meaningful manner?

No it does not depart from where I think they would go.

I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg]

Sluggo_Monster

REPLY> Ok. now the obvious response. You knew
I would make.

Whoever made the FBI FP map by whatever process,
some data set (surmised or actual) decides the tic mark placement.

Whether it was radar data or a consensus of opinion
or whatever, they did not go through this exercise
for no reason, for the hell of it. Otherwise why make
the map at all! They already had Soderlind's NWA
map, but using that Cooper had nopt been found.

_So, what is the estimated DATE of this FBI FP
map compared to Soderlind's quick-map he started
at Minneapolis?

_and dismissing error of some maker in placing a few
stray tic marks in the wrong place, all in the same area and nowhere else on the map, could it not be
error at all but "two independent data sets which
do not agree all in one area" ?

_two radar data sets, McChord vs PDX, which actually did not agree leading to two sets of tic marks right
where you would expect disagreement, near PDX.

Why of all places on the whole flight map do two
sets of tics appear right around or after Cooper
has baioled. I mean is this Aviation Histories Worst Day Ever!? Is everyone a moron and doing nothing right with faulty memory after the fact? I dont buy it.
These are smart guys, skilled, busy(yes) but not
atupid and suddenly incompetent .

Something happened. Something was going on.
To simply say they departed and were returning
after a lazy afternoon's stroll to V23 defies belief.

These two sets of tics is not error for no reason,
if it is error at all.

In the real world, I would suppose several radar
data sets as well as professional opinions or
testimony went into the construction of this map.
Obviously one set of opinions included the flight
crew. I simply refer you to the note at the top of
the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know
as you have said that was from the pilot's own
map or notes.

I think this flight map was a cooperative effort and their very best attemnpt to piece together the flight path they thought they flew combining whatever radar data they had with personal testimony and actual notes of the pilot(s), Scott and Rataczack.

I think 305 got diverted around PDX for a reason
and from say 8:13-8:16 there is intense discussion going on and it was this that had them straying
off V23, perhaps deciding if they should even attempt to land at PDX, because it is clearas day from Rataczack's testimony THEY KNEW COOPER
HAD BAILED!

These tic marks in my opinion point directly to
data and actual event based confusion going on
in the PDX area precisely at the time following Cooper having bailed.

I know this is not a strong arguement I am making
here. But it is a plausable scenario and helps account
for two sets of tics in this area.

I dont think its error. I think its actual uncertainty
and even conflicting data sets owing to the actual events as they occurred in a very difficult set of circumsatances for which nobody was prepared or
at fault.

Geoeger

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

You remember a few weeks ago, when I made a post stating that I wasn’t posting often because I seem to kill the thread? I said I didn’t mean to, but it was just a part of my personality. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t let you know that sometimes your posting style is “downright insulting”. You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum. But I deem your last post as “insulting.” And, BTW, you aren’t alone, there are others who post here, that don’t seem very respectful of others.

Whether you mean to be insulting or not, I will continue to respond to your posts for a couple of reasons. One, I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly.

Now to the subject at hand.

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They already had Soderlind's NWA map, but using that Cooper had nopt been found.

Sonderlind’s map? You know something I don’t?

Quote

So, what is the estimated DATE of this FBI FP map compared to Soderlind's quick-map he started at Minneapolis?

Quick-Map? I have absolutely no way to estimate a date for this map, except that it (the sectional chart) was issued before PDX was a “Class C Airspace” and is consistent with a 1971 chart. As for the marks? Ckret could have put them there right before the FBI posted it on their web site. (Or, maybe they were used in January 1972 to define a search area.)

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and dismissing error of some maker in placing a few stray tic marks in the wrong place, all in the same area and nowhere else on the map, could it not be error at all but "two independent data sets which do not agree all in one area" ?
_two radar data sets, McChord vs PDX, which actually did not agree leading to two sets of tic marks right where you would expect disagreement, near PDX.

Again, you know something I don’t? You have knowledge of two radars tracking Flight 305? Would SEA ATC radar be the McChord or PDX radar?

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Why of all places on the whole flight map do two sets of tics appear right around or after Cooper has baioled. I mean is this Aviation Histories Worst Day Ever!? Is everyone a moron and doing nothing right with faulty memory after the fact? I dont buy it. These are smart guys, skilled, busy(yes) but not atupid and suddenly incompetent .

If you know where Cooper bailed, then why am I wasting my time trying to understand the flight path? I have no idea what you mean about “faulty memory after the fact.” Here is one of the insults I mentioned. I feel that I understand the error because I have made the error. 377 says that he has made the error. So, in your opinion, Sluggo and 377 are incompetent, stupid, and morons. Thanks.

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Something happened. Something was going on. To simply say they departed and were returning after a lazy afternoon's stroll to V23 defies belief.

Afternoon stroll? Are you a McCann campaign strategist? That has ZERO intellectual value. [Look up “cone of confusion," and then practice setting multiple nav radios under stress, then get back to me.]

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In the real world, I would suppose several radar data sets as well as professional opinions or testimony went into the construction of this map. Obviously one set of opinions included the flight crew. I simply refer you to the note at the top of the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know as you have said that was from the pilot's own map or notes.

When we first communicated (on another board) I “strongly cautioned” you about assigning statements to me, when I have never made them. I would like to “strongly cautioned” you again. I never made any such statement. I said that the 1st plot point was probably where the plane appeared on radar (when they climbed to 10,000 feet from 7.000 feet). The last person who would have a map of their location would be the pilots. Commercial pilots do not plot their paths like ships do in the movies. I have no knowledge of any “notes by the pilot”.

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These tic marks in my opinion point directly to data and actual event based confusion going on in the PDX area precisely at the time following Cooper having bailed.

Would that “time” be the 20:11 time, the 20:15 time, or some other time.

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I know this is not a strong argument I am making here. But it is a plausible scenario and helps account for two sets of tics in this area.

Well we almost agree here (batting 0.500). Not a strong argument, but not necessarily a plausible scenario.

Oh, I just figured out why they occurred near Portland. It’s because that’s where they occurred. If they had been somewhere else, they wouldn’t have occurred around Portland.
georger, I know almost nothing about you. As I have said before, I value your opinions and appreciate the energy and resources you have put into these discussions. But, one thing I have come to believe about you, is that (for some reason), you want Cooper’s body to have fallen in the Columbia. That’s okay by me. I’ll bet about 85% of us have a pet theory that we would love to see proven. (I know I have one.) Would you like to share that with us (or refute what I have come to believe)?

Keep diggin’ (that’s southern), we need your input.

Sluggo_Monster (Trying not to kill the thread with my personality)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

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Sluggo_Monster (Trying not to kill the thread with my personality)

Your personality seems infectious to me. You are a factual person - one who likes to see what he says supported by what research has been made available to you. You are the spine of this forum - your brilliant mind and sense of order keeps everyone in line including me.

Sluggo - you do not allow myth nor out and out theory deter you from what the facts and data accumulated seem to support yet, you have the flexibility to explore the theories until documented facts bring you to other conclusions.

(As Martha Steward always says) - that is a good thing. You are the Staff (the spine) of this forum. It takes a very intellectual mind and fortitude to maintain that level as you have done.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

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georger,

You remember a few weeks ago, when I made a post stating that I wasn’t posting often because I seem to kill the thread? I said I didn’t mean to, but it was just a part of my personality. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t let you know that sometimes your posting style is “downright insulting”. You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum. But I deem your last post as “insulting.” And, BTW, you aren’t alone, there are others who post here, that don’t seem very respectful of others.

Whether you mean to be insulting or not, I will continue to respond to your posts for a couple of reasons. One, I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly.

REPLY> what are you talking about? That is what
I would like to know. I feel like Im playing
nursemaid to a bomb always ready to go off
for no reason. THAT is how I FEEL.

How exactly am I insulting?

For once in these pages say what you mean.

Is a this a soap opera or what?

GEORGE

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[georger 247]

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georger,

You remember a few weeks ago, when I made a post stating that I wasn’t posting often because I seem to kill the thread? I said I didn’t mean to, but it was just a part of my personality. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t let you know that sometimes your posting style is “downright insulting”. You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum. But I deem your last post as “insulting.” And, BTW, you aren’t alone, there are others who post here, that don’t seem very respectful of others.

Whether you mean to be insulting or not, I will continue to respond to your posts for a couple of reasons. One, I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly.

Now to the subject at hand.

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They already had Soderlind's NWA map, but using that Cooper had nopt been found.

Sonderlind’s map? You know something I don’t?

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So, what is the estimated DATE of this FBI FP map compared to Soderlind's quick-map he started at Minneapolis?

Quick-Map? I have absolutely no way to estimate a date for this map, except that it (the sectional chart) was issued before PDX was a “Class C Airspace” and is consistent with a 1971 chart. As for the marks? Ckret could have put them there right before the FBI posted it on their web site. (Or, maybe they were used in January 1972 to define a search area.)

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and dismissing error of some maker in placing a few stray tic marks in the wrong place, all in the same area and nowhere else on the map, could it not be error at all but "two independent data sets which do not agree all in one area" ?
_two radar data sets, McChord vs PDX, which actually did not agree leading to two sets of tic marks right where you would expect disagreement, near PDX.

Again, you know something I don’t? You have knowledge of two radars tracking Flight 305? Would SEA ATC radar be the McChord or PDX radar?

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Why of all places on the whole flight map do two sets of tics appear right around or after Cooper has baioled. I mean is this Aviation Histories Worst Day Ever!? Is everyone a moron and doing nothing right with faulty memory after the fact? I dont buy it. These are smart guys, skilled, busy(yes) but not atupid and suddenly incompetent .

If you know where Cooper bailed, then why am I wasting my time trying to understand the flight path? I have no idea what you mean about “faulty memory after the fact.” Here is one of the insults I mentioned. I feel that I understand the error because I have made the error. 377 says that he has made the error. So, in your opinion, Sluggo and 377 are incompetent, stupid, and morons. Thanks.

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Something happened. Something was going on. To simply say they departed and were returning after a lazy afternoon's stroll to V23 defies belief.

Afternoon stroll? Are you a McCann campaign strategist? That has ZERO intellectual value. [Look up “cone of confusion," and then practice setting multiple nav radios under stress, then get back to me.]

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In the real world, I would suppose several radar data sets as well as professional opinions or testimony went into the construction of this map. Obviously one set of opinions included the flight crew. I simply refer you to the note at the top of the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know as you have said that was from the pilot's own map or notes.

When we first communicated (on another board) I “strongly cautioned” you about assigning statements to me, when I have never made them. I would like to “strongly cautioned” you again. I never made any such statement. I said that the 1st plot point was probably where the plane appeared on radar (when they climbed to 10,000 feet from 7.000 feet). The last person who would have a map of their location would be the pilots. Commercial pilots do not plot their paths like ships do in the movies. I have no knowledge of any “notes by the pilot”.

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These tic marks in my opinion point directly to data and actual event based confusion going on in the PDX area precisely at the time following Cooper having bailed.

Would that “time” be the 20:11 time, the 20:15 time, or some other time.

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I know this is not a strong argument I am making here. But it is a plausible scenario and helps account for two sets of tics in this area.

Well we almost agree here (batting 0.500). Not a strong argument, but not necessarily a plausible scenario.

Oh, I just figured out why they occurred near Portland. It’s because that’s where they occurred. If they had been somewhere else, they wouldn’t have occurred around Portland.
georger, I know almost nothing about you. As I have said before, I value your opinions and appreciate the energy and resources you have put into these discussions. But, one thing I have come to believe about you, is that (for some reason), you want Cooper’s body to have fallen in the Columbia. That’s okay by me. I’ll bet about 85% of us have a pet theory that we would love to see proven. (I know I have one.) Would you like to share that with us (or refute what I have come to believe)?

Keep diggin’ (that’s southern), we need your input.

Sluggo_Monster (Trying not to kill the thread with my personality)

REPLY> I think you have misunderstood every single word I have said - in substance and in intent.

I feel like Im dealing with somebody from another
planet.

We have no common language or even a common
psychological platform.

I will have my 94 chromosomes checked tomorrow
because one of us is from outer space -

I guess you now have an insult to whine about.