DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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I seriously doubt if there were drops from
the 727 (in Nam) its a secret. Why would it be?
All of the aviation people here - somebody should know 100%.

Shhhh... it's clearly all part of The Great Cover-Up To Prevent The World Knowing The Truth About DB Cooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Ckret, (Ckret likes us to bold questions to him)

Did Captain Tom Bohan ever get interviewed? Can you tell us anything about it (if he did)?

I'm obviously not Ckret, but I have talked about Bohan with him and didn't get the impression he was ever interviewed.

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Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight?

Rather curiously no mention of a flight number. I also can't find a timetable online from that time period. Continental did run flights from SEA to PDX at that time period though. I don't think you need to spend to much time trying to understand this one either, but I'm ready to discuss when you are.

[skyjack71 0]

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Re: [georger] for Jo [In reply to]

I seriously doubt if there were drops from the 727 (in Nam) its a secret. Why would it be?
All of the aviation people here - somebody should know 100%.

I am trying to do is make sense out of the things the ex told me and what Duane told me and try to piece it together - to see if it makes some sense to someone - least of all me. NOTE: I said least of all me.

I am throwing these things out there so that someone more detached and definitely a lot smarter might have some knowledge of what it means.

I did not get any indications from Duane that he was in Nam or anywhere near it. He did know some short commands in the lanugage - such as "Get on down the road" I know how it sounded but would never attempt to type it.

As for the 727 being used all I know is what I have been told - and the only thing that I can input regarding the use of a commercial airliner would be - the one thing that comes to my simple mind. Maybe it had to such a plane to catch someone off guard...that the ground would think it was a passenger plane off course and not take any action...where they dropping jumpers or cargo or both for an assault and maybe it wasn't in Nam......

Question was there any official killed in a foriegn country between 1962 and 1971 that would have been done by covert CIA or perhaps our own CIA or FBI. One in which there was NOT to be any photo's taken and yet some were taken and a couple of these appear on a TV program many yrs later. The photo I am thinking about show a tall man with a rifle in fatigues - I have searched this myself and found incidents but not the picture I am looking for.

There have been 3 photo's that are imbedded in my mind that I have not been able to find. Well, I guess that says I have flew over the Cuckoo's nest one time to many.

By the way 377 - one of those photo's regards jumpers from San Quentin / Folsom. Photos and memories that mean something - they are there until I tell someone about it and then POOF like the magic Dragon they are gone. Maybe I just woke up from a bad dream. Maybe life is only in our mind - do we really exist? The past the present and the future - is it all one?

As all of comes to an end, even I might have to concede - that I may have lost my mind. Is life really real - past, present and future? The more I think about my life with Duane and the things I know plus the things I have been told - the more confusing it is.

Just about the time I think it will end and the answer is staring me in the face - it starts all over again. Each and every exploration leaves me with enforcement of some of the things and sometimes with new tidbits dropped into the basket...but never with that one thing that is needed - that one piece of proof.

I have been told many times that I am seeing it, but don't know what it is - such as when someone hides something in plain view...he knows it is there, but no one else does. Duane told me that several times. He left the truth in plain site - but I couldn't see it.

Now after all these yrs. I sold the property, the funishings, gave things away, remarried, tried to start anew - but did I destroy the evidence when I did that?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

I have done a lot of digging and found nothing indicating that state prisoners from San Quentin or Folsom ever served as smoke jumpers. There are lots of instances of prisoners serving on ground based fire crews, but no record I could find of them jumping. Jo may have seen a photo of smoke jumpers and was told that they were prisoners, but that info was likely incorrect.

There is a lot written about smoke jumper history. None that I read mentions prisoner jumpers. It takes a lot of training and you have to be based all season with your crew at a fire base airport. Those logistics are not very prisoner compatible. There has always been an oversupply of qualified smoke jumper candidates. Why use prisoners who add escape risk?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I know we have a hard time letting go of myths like the CIA/727/vietnam airdrop myth, even if there are no supporting facts.

But on the plus side, I was finally able to shoot down the following myth. I got a call in to Plant and Page, and they denied it.

I investigated this when wondering about what kind of music Cooper would listen to.

The myth:

Led Zeppelin IV was released on November 8, 1971, which includes their epic "Stairway To Heaven".

At the time, it was mistakenly thought that playing it backwards revealed satanic messages. In fact, the song is a message for Cooper, giving him the final details and go ahead for the hijack, which happened just over 2 weeks later.

The album has no title, and was sometimes referred to by the title "Man With Sticks" as a reference to Cooper with dynamite sticks. The album cover has a painting of an old man (Cooper) with sticks (dynamite).


Analysis of the lyrics:

There's a lady who's sure (reference to the leader of the cell, who is a woman)
All that glitters is gold (she wants the money)
And she's buying a stairway to heaven. (reference to the aft stairs, and jumping in flight)
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed (reference to the 5:00 pm deadline)
With a word she can get what she came for. (the demands for the ransom)
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.

Theres a sign on the wall (reference to the sign for the aft stair operation)
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. (self-reference to the song referring to the hijack, but also to stair operation)
In a tree by the brook (the planned landing spot for Cooper)
Theres a songbird who sings, (the signal for Cooper after landing)
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven. (telling Cooper not to worry)
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

Theres a feeling I get
When I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving. (warning to not let them take the coast flight path when 305 leaves SEATAC)
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees, (warning that planes will be searching for Cooper)
And the voices of those who standing looking. (warning about searchers on the ground)
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And its whispered that soon
If we all call the tune (Telling Cooper to give the call signal after landing)
Then the piper will lead us to reason. (follow the response signal after landing)
And a new day will dawn (you'll be okay by the next morning)
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter. (the forest where Cooper lands. everything will be okay)

If theres a bustle in your hedgerow (this reference to bustle is a dress bustle, it refers to "in case you get a seat pack chute")
Dont be alarmed now, (don't worry if so, it's just a feint, don't use it)
Its just a spring clean for the may queen. (don't worry if you see any police, they're paid off)
Yes, there are two paths you can go by (detailed explanation of the escape path)
But in the long run
Theres still time to change the road you're on. (if you take the wrong road, it's still okay, there's plenty of time to make Portland for the pickup)
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go (the drugs Cooper will take beforehand will cause some side effects)
In case you don't know,
The pipers calling you to join him, (don't give in to any hallucinations)
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, (caution/heads-up about the wind on the stairs)
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind. (encouragement for Cooper to jump off the aft stairs)

And as we wind on down the road (while on the flight)
Our shadows taller than our soul. (reference to the half moon casting shadows)
There walks a lady we all know (reference to the leader of the cell again, the woman)
Who shines white light and wants to show (this is the light signal Cooper should look for, as the spot)
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last. (telling Cooper to use the radio device to detect the BTG Vortac signal)
When all are one and one is all (reminding him the organization is fully behind him. "one is all" is "1isawl" which is Lisa W. L. the leader of the cell/organization)
To be a rock and not to roll. (reminder to free-fall for a while before deploying)
And she's buying a stairway to heaven. (reminder that Cooper is also going to get a cut of the ransom)

[georger 247]

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Quote

I seriously doubt if there were drops from
the 727 (in Nam) its a secret. Why would it be?
All of the aviation people here - somebody should know 100%.

Shhhh... it's clearly all part of The Great Cover-Up To Prevent The World Knowing The Truth About DB Cooper.

REPLY> ROGER WILCO - CODER RING ON.

[georger 247]

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Ckret, (Ckret likes us to bold questions to him)

Did Captain Tom Bohan ever get interviewed? Can you tell us anything about it (if he did)?

I'm obviously not Ckret, but I have talked about Bohan with him and didn't get the impression he was ever interviewed.

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Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight?

Rather curiously no mention of a flight number. I also can't find a timetable online from that time period. Continental did run flights from SEA to PDX at that time period though. I don't think you need to spend to much time trying to understand this one either, but I'm ready to discuss when you are.

REPLY. Im all ears - go!

I wondered also about the flight # ... did a search
on Tom Bohan ... recognised commercial pilot ...
deceased now ... but he and H had breakfast where
they discussed the hijacking and Bohan let it drop
he had been 4 mins behind! H stopped eating!

Tell us all you know.

George

[georger 247]

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I know we have a hard time letting go of myths like the CIA/727/vietnam airdrop myth, even if there are no supporting facts.

REPLY> Let me remind when this came up for real
on 11-24 there was (surprise?) that someone was
asking for chutes to parachute from 305 - the transcripts (to me) reflect that surprise. I mean
it started discussion (can this be done?). I wonder
what sense Sluggo gets from the transcripts on this ?

George

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

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I know we have a hard time letting go of myths like the CIA/727/vietnam airdrop myth, even if there are no supporting facts.

REPLY> Let me remind when this came up for real
on 11-24 there was (surprise?) that someone was
asking for chutes to parachute from 305 - the transcripts (to me) reflect that surprise. I mean
it started discussion (can this be done?). I wonder
what sense Sluggo gets from the transcripts on this ?

George

If the first successful jump had been from a DC-9 rather than a 727, would the investigation be any different? If so, why? (you saw that one of the later successful jumps was from a DC-9, right?)

Attached is a pic of the ventral stairs on a MD-88 (DC-9-88) . It's hard to find stair pics for the non-727 cases.

Trivia question: list the planes (worldwide) that had ventral stairs and were flying in '71.

• Quote

[377 22]

'a whole lotta love' for Snowman. That Zep post was great!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

If the first successful jump had been from a DC-9 rather than a 727, would the investigation be any different? If so, why? (you saw that one of the later successful jumps was from a DC-9, right?)

REPLY> Why would the investigation be different?
A jump is a jump. Unless something about the case
is aircraft specific. I suppose some hijackers would
turn nose up at bailing from a 727 vs a DC9, or the
reverse? Cooper chose an aircraft which had
presteige at the time, and of course bailing from a
jet .... that had social technical value at the time.

I think all hijackers select a target of opportunity.
Its pretty clear Cooper picked his target, day, and
time. It's a law of Nature that weaknesses are going
to be exploited. Cooper saw what he thought was
a vulnerable opportunity, and he acted. Its predatory. So whether a 727 or a DC9 or whatever,
the underlying process is basically the same.

There is another law of Nature however. There is no
free cheese.

[Orange1 0]

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But on the plus side, I was finally able to shoot down the following myth. I got a call in to Plant and Page, and they denied it.

Ah, but their denial was a cover-up too. Your analysis of the song proves beyond all doubt that this "myth" must be true.

Great post

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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If the first successful jump had been from a DC-9 rather than a 727, would the investigation be any different? If so, why? (you saw that one of the later successful jumps was from a DC-9, right?)

REPLY> Why would the investigation be different?
A jump is a jump. Unless something about the case
is aircraft specific. I suppose some hijackers would
turn nose up at bailing from a 727 vs a DC9, or the
reverse? Cooper chose an aircraft which had
presteige at the time, and of course bailing from a
jet .... that had social technical value at the time.

I think all hijackers select a target of opportunity.
Its pretty clear Cooper picked his target, day, and
time. It's a law of Nature that weaknesses are going
to be exploited. Cooper saw what he thought was
a vulnerable opportunity, and he acted. Its predatory. So whether a 727 or a DC9 or whatever,
the underlying process is basically the same.

There is another law of Nature however. There is no
free cheese.

Yes, georger, you're following the rational thought process that I would expect.

Now: count out the ways the investigation was skewed because it was a 727.

1) this CIA/727/Vietnam mythology. (there was no CIA/DC-9/Vietnam mythology.)
2) Boeing is in WA. Boeing/WA aviation had layoffs. Hijackers tended to be unemployed. The hijack was in WA. Therefore Cooper must be WA aviation engineer, even though he apparently thought seeing Tacoma from the air was quite novel.

The data suggesting Cooper was WA local, or aviation industry person, is extremely weak?

Douglas manufactured in CA? (not sure). In any case, if it was DC-9, the investigation would have skewed differently. So if it being a 727 skewed the investigation we have to ask: was the skew correct, or absolutely bogus?

Like here's another myth: people still think that the 727 was the only plane with ventral stair at the time.
It may have been more common, or the stairs used more. But I think the mythology has been accepted that no other jet was possible, therefore reinforcing the weak hypothesis that Cooper knew something about 727s.

[377 22]

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Cooper chose an aircraft which had
presteige at the time, and of course bailing from a
jet .... that had social technical value at the time.

Funny, a jet jump (in my case a DC 9-21) is a very easy jump, but has far more "social value" than other more difficult jumps from prop planes.

If Cooper had hijacked a puddle jumper commuter airliner I bet they wouldn't have scrambled as hard to meet his demands.

I still think he must have known, in advance, that a 727 ventral in flight exit was possible. Otherwise, he was walking into nearly certain capture. Only an idiot would do it without knowing for sure that he had a way out.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

I cannot find where an interview of Bohan was conducted by the FBI. His statement is a bit out of what had been reported by the various weather services the evening of the jump. To that end, as with all of the factors on the evening of the jump, you have to keep in mind that humans beings were involved in this incident. Human beings that don't have all the pieces of the puzzel in front of them. Human beings that don't know whats going to happen from minute to minute, and so on...... Some how you are going to have to take a look at the incident from two directions, a keen investigator with information after the fact and (this is the tough part) a person in the moment (with their knowledge and skill set) not knowing whats going to happen next and just reacting.

Orange,

No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingreprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep proved to be of comparison value. On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area of where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value.

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Ckret.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[happythoughts 0]

Now THAT was f-in funny.


I went on a one-evening gambling cruise ship with 25 jumpers for someones birthday. This was the weekend that Page-Plant were in Tampa for a concert.

Since I gamble very little, I concentrated on drinking and chasing women. My British friend had long, blond, wavy hair.

At some point, I told two girls, "Yeah, I'm here with Robert Plant. He's on the next deck there."

[happythoughts 0]

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Question was there any official killed in a foriegn country between 1962 and 1971

Hmm... during the war. The VN war? Was someone killed? Possibly. I also read somewhere sometime that officials were killed between the years of 1 and 2008 also.

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One in which there was NOT to be any photo's taken and yet some were taken

Seems familiar. I have seen pictures that were not taken.

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The photo I am thinking about show a tall man with a rifle in fatigues - I have searched this myself and found incidents but not the picture I am looking for.

I googled "vietnam war soldier picture".
I got 3.4 million hits. Look through those.
If you could be less specific, we'll get more hits.

[Orange1 0]

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At some point, I told two girls, "Yeah, I'm here with Robert Plant. He's on the next deck there."

So.. did the line work??

The Led Zep post got me thinking. Here's some more context ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971

Of course, lots of serious stuff happened in 1971. But also note the hijacking took place between when Intel released its first microprocessor (nov 15th) and when the "Smoke on the water" incident happened in Montreux (Dec 4th). Conspiracy theorists, go wild!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Question was there any official killed in a foriegn country between 1962 and 1971

Hmm... during the war. The VN war? Was someone killed? Possibly. I also read somewhere sometime that officials were killed between the years of 1 and 2008 also.

Quote

One in which there was NOT to be any photo's taken and yet some were taken

Seems familiar. I have seen pictures that were not taken.

Quote

The photo I am thinking about show a tall man with a rifle in fatigues - I have searched this myself and found incidents but not the picture I am looking for.

I googled "vietnam war soldier picture".
I got 3.4 million hits. Look through those.
If you could be less specific, we'll get more hits.

ah, happythoughts, you're on a roll!

btw your "I have seen pictures that were not taken." reminds me of that classic exchange from Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead:
Rosencrantz: Do you think Death could possibly be a boat?
Guildenstern: No, no, no... Death is not. Death isn't. Take my meaning?
Death is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not be on a boat.
Rosencrantz: I've frequently not been on boats.
Guildenstern: No, no... What you've been is not on boats.
Rosencrantz: I wish I was dead.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

ALL,

I’m not speculating! Repeat, I’m not speculating. I AM NOT SPECULATING!

Ckret,

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I cannot find where an interview of Bohan was conducted by the FBI. His statement is a bit out of what had been reported by the various weather services the evening of the jump. To that end, as with all of the factors on the evening of the jump, you have to keep in mind that humans beings were involved in this incident. Human beings that don't have all the pieces of the puzzel in front of them. Human beings that don't know whats going to happen from minute to minute, and so on...... Some how you are going to have to take a look at the incident from two directions, a keen investigator with information after the fact and (this is the tough part) a person in the moment (with their knowledge and skill set) not knowing whats going to happen next and just reacting.

Even though (in the context presented in this thread (i.e. the info came from a breakfast meeting with Himmelsbach)). Your response reminded me of a life experience, and life experience is what guides my opinions. I went to TMI as part of the Initial Recovery Team (IRT). As far as Health Physics personnel are concerned, the staff on duty at the time of the accident and the IRT were the only people involved prior to the declared entry into Mode IV (declared sub-critical) on day #18 (I believe). This was about 60 to 70 individuals. However, in the 29 years since then, I have talked (personally) to about 400 people who were there before Day #18. And I have read about (sometimes while reading resumes) probably another 100. Boy, it sure was crowded in that little tiny HP Office in the Aux Building.

My point is… just like success has many fathers, a major event has many participants. I sure some of the avowed IRT participants were probably at TMI sometime in their past. Maybe before the accident, maybe in the long-term recovery, but (assuming they aren’t consciously lying) they are convinced it was that last week of March and first two weeks of April 1979.

Could this be the case with Captain Bohan? I don’t know, I’m just asking.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Georger,

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Let me remind when this came up for real on 11-24 there was (surprise?) that someone was asking for chutes to parachute from 305 - the transcripts (to me) reflect that surprise. I mean it started discussion (can this be done?). I wonder what sense Sluggo gets from the transcripts on this ?

From my interpretation of the transcripts (all of them available to me), I believe almost no one at NWA thought it could be done. The Page 99 reference to “ABILITY TO JUMP OUT OF A 707 WITH A PARACHUTE ON IS NIL” is indicative of this. (Once you resolve the “707 vs. 727” issue.) It was Boeing who told them it could be done and Boeing that furnished a procedure to do it (as opposed to NWA). I get the sense that the procedure wasn’t “canned” but rather written while 305 was on the ground at SEA. It was included with the charts and instrument plates sent to the aircraft. So, in summary… I think “surprised” is an adequate description.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[happythoughts 0]

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At some point, I told two girls, "Yeah, I'm here with Robert Plant. He's on the next deck there."

So.. did the line work??

Kinda.

My buddy waves back and says, "Hello mate". It started a conversation. The next day, one of them went out to the dz and did a tandem.

Unfortunately, I was semi-unemployed and driving my El Camino. I wasn't in the target group.

However, I got to spend a no-contact "friend" weekend with two hot women. My life has been worse.

[snowmman 3]

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On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area of where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value.

This is interesting, Ckret. Is there anything on "what" magazine or magazines? I'm wondering if there's anything there that might be interesting. Even to the detail of what pages the fingerprints were on...Just random thru the magazine, or did some kind of article/writing catch his eye?

Seems odd if there were multiple magazines. Be surprised if he had time to look at more than 1 magazine.

So I guess what you're really saying is you have prints that don't match any of the passengers/crew, from the magazines. There must be testimony from someone else that connects Cooper to the magazines, otherwise it would be likely to just be from other flights? or ???.

Did the FBI get prints from any passengers on 305 that deplaned before Portland (it started on the East coast, as we've noted)

I'm wondering what data says the magazine prints are likely to include Cooper's.

Thanks if you can flesh this out.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,


In Post #919, Ckret made this request. (Because he sometimes just scans the thread):

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In my attempts to be responsive to your questions could you highlight them so I don't miss it. I enjoy the debate and theory and try to read it all but sometimes my head starts spinning with some of it and I miss your question.

So:

Ckret, snowmman has a question for you in the post above.

There,

Sluggo_Monster (Ckret's creepy uncle)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

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At some point, I told two girls, "Yeah, I'm here with Robert Plant. He's on the next deck there."

So.. did the line work??

Kinda.

My buddy waves back and says, "Hello mate". It started a conversation. The next day, one of them went out to the dz and did a tandem.

Unfortunately, I was semi-unemployed and driving my El Camino. I wasn't in the target group.

However, I got to spend a no-contact "friend" weekend with two hot women. My life has been worse.

Happythoughts is an honest skydiver for sure. Any other jumper who connected with two hot women would have spun the story waaaay up from a "no contact friend weekend." That El Camino would have morphed into a Porsche or Ferrari for sure. We now know we can trust happythoughts posts.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.