On a second sweep some magazines Did the FBI get prints from any passengers on 305 that deplaned before Portland (it started on the East coast, as we've noted)
REPLY> Are dead people automatically figerprinted,
I mean at hospitals, in morgues, funeral homes, etc?
Are dead people automatically fingerprinted,
I mean at hospitals, in morgues, funeral homes, etc?
I believe I have asked that same question and even inquired if Duane was printed at the funeral home. I guess they thought I was crazy and never called me back.
I had heard that if someone is cremated that some states require the person to be fingerprinted.
CKRET: I don't know how to highlight, but I have a question.
CKRET, I got a phone call from WA tonight - is this the below rumor or fact?
IS or HAS the FBI contacted the wife of a suspect - to resume the body for prints and/or DNA? This was circulating in a local restaurant in the Battleground area this morning.
The caller thought they were referring to me, but alas - it must be someone else.
IS tHIS TRUTH OR RUMOR?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Ckret, This is mostly for you, but I welcome all other’s comments.
Sometimes when I get to thinking about NORJAK, all the witness testimony and other evidence (like the transcripts), I begin to think something BIG is missing. I don’t mean “solve the case big,” I mean “I’m not seeing the whole picture” big.
Tonight I started focusing on Tina’s last glance of Cooper while she was closing the F/C curtain. If I have it right, she saw him after he came out of the lavatory and was with him for several minutes before he gave her instructions to; “go to the cockpit, close the curtain, and don’t look back here.” The plane was “wheels-off” at 19:36 and he ordered her forward at 19:41. [This is per the Mid-June transcripts, not my web page timeline.] So, she observed him for a minimum of 5 min (probably a lot more… when you add the time from lavatory exit to takeoff).
Therefore, she must have known exactly what he was wearing when he jumped.
My big question is: Ckret? Did he have the raincoat on when he jumped (or when Tina saw him tying the bag onto his body)? Surely this issue was discussed in the debrief and in other witness testimony, but everyone discusses it as if he was just in a “business suit”.
What my mind sees is a man who went into the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, came out of the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, then put on a parachute (like he was accustomed to doing it [per Tina’s testimony]) over the trench coat.
To my mind, this does not allow for a discussion (after the fact) that would characterize his dress as “a business suit.” It would seem to me, the likely description would be; “He jumped wearing a black trench coat,” or some such.
I don’t know why this is important to me, except that I am still exploring the concept of something really basic being overlooked.
Some of you sky apes and bird-turds skydivers, chime in with a description of how wearing a trench coat would have changed the dynamics of the jump. If it didn’t cause some jump-related technical difficulty, it would have made him a lot warmer. I watched a one-hour English version of the German video (recently posted) the other night and the stunt man who was testing survivability was in a suit (and used a chest chute) for all his jumps and the swimming pool test. {The program was on Discovery Investigation Channel. I still have it on my Charter DVR, I would like to take the digital file off it and make an MPEG or WMV of it. If anyone can give me help, please do so and I’ll share it with you.}
Ckret, This is mostly for you, but I welcome all other’s comments.
Sometimes when I get to thinking about NORJAK, all the witness testimony and other evidence (like the transcripts), I begin to think something BIG is missing. I don’t mean “solve the case big,” I mean “I’m not seeing the whole picture” big.
Tonight I started focusing on Tina’s last glance of Cooper while she was closing the F/C curtain. If I have it right, she saw him after he came out of the lavatory and was with him for several minutes before he gave her instructions to; “go to the cockpit, close the curtain, and don’t look back here.” The plane was “wheels-off” at 19:36 and he ordered her forward at 19:41. [This is per the Mid-June transcripts, not my web page timeline.] So, she observed him for a minimum of 5 min (probably a lot more… when you add the time from lavatory exit to takeoff).
Therefore, she must have known exactly what he was wearing when he jumped.
My big question is: Ckret? Did he have the raincoat on when he jumped (or when Tina saw him tying the bag onto his body)? Surely this issue was discussed in the debrief and in other witness testimony, but everyone discusses it as if he was just in a “business suit”.
What my mind sees is a man who went into the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, came out of the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, then put on a parachute (like he was accustomed to doing it [per Tina’s testimony]) over the trench coat.
To my mind, this does not allow for a discussion (after the fact) that would characterize his dress as “a business suit.” It would seem to me, the likely description would be; “He jumped wearing a black trench coat,” or some such.
I don’t know why this is important to me, except that I am still exploring the concept of something really basic being overlooked.
Some of you sky apes and bird-turds skydivers, chime in with a description of how wearing a trench coat would have changed the dynamics of the jump. If it didn’t cause some jump-related technical difficulty, it would have made him a lot warmer. I watched a one-hour English version of the German video (recently posted) the other night and the stunt man who was testing survivability was in a suit (and used a chest chute) for all his jumps and the swimming pool test. {The program was on Discovery Investigation Channel. I still have it on my Charter DVR, I would like to take the digital file off it and make an MPEG or WMV of it. If anyone can give me help, please do so and I’ll share it with you.}
Thanks to all,
Sluggo_Monster
ALSO: Did he leave the brown paper bag behind,
in the Lav ?
I watched a one-hour English version of the German video (recently posted) the other night and the stunt man who was testing survivability was in a suit (and used a chest chute) for all his jumps and the swimming pool test. {The program was on Discovery Investigation Channel. I still have it on my Charter DVR, I would like to take the digital file off it and make an MPEG or WMV of it. If anyone can give me help, please do so and I’ll share it with you.}
This was the court case where northwest was trying to collect on their insurance policy for the ransom.
I snipped details of the money delivery. For instance, I've not seen Grinnell's name mentioned before. See below for his role. Also, I guess by 1975, Tina's last name was Larson already?
Here, Lee's name is given as Elwood M. Lee.
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.
Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.
I see Cooper as more of a loner ... a
bank robber or financial type maybe.
Cooper trivia: you're aware that someone soon after the Cooper thing, robbed a bank and apparently wrote "D.B. Cooper" on a deposit slip. They cleared him though. Arvid Julius Kiperts, of Portland, age 41. Questioned about 16 bank robberies. 2/9/73 thru 2/13/73 news articles. arrested for Oct 29 holdup in King City, OR. Dec 1971 bank robbery in Witsonville, south of Portland, was the Cooper related one.
I always wonder when people say something like "Cooper may have been a bank robber".. I wonder how people know about bank robbers?
Another thing I thought interesting, is that we talk about motives, but a nice report at the FBI site on solving serial murder crimes, points out that it can be a waste of time. I think the same for something like the Cooper case.
You're also aware that Paul Cini did a parachute attempt (apparently) 2 weeks before Cooper. He was in a DC-8 though. Bad choice, right? I guess he was kind of an idiot though.
I harped on the black rain coat for a long time, because it almost seems like a lost fact. One of the first things I told the FBI in 1996 when I contacted them and my other contacts with Ralph Hope and retired agent Himmelsbach - no one ever reacts to the BLACK RAINCOAT. I know that Duane told me during the first yr. I met him - before we got married - he mentioned having a black rain coat.
The conversation took place when I went to help him get somethings out of his car trunk at my apartment in Atlanta - he always kept a metal file cabinet in there and it was locked...I would never know the contents of this cabinet until a later date, but prior to that he replaced the large metal box for a smaller box.
The first time I saw the tax reports he had kept since 1969..(his first yr as Duane L. Weber - these items would only have consumed 1/4 fo 1/3 of that box). These were in the same box as the Ticket in 1994 . He had combined the contents of the metal box with shop records for 1990 - when ALL of those OTHER strange things happened.
If you will recall it was February of 1994 when I saw the airline ticket, but is was also the first time I saw those tax reports. I did not have reason to review them in any detail until 1996 after that day in May when I found out who Dan Cooper was.
So if Duane was probagating a confession - he started on it before he married me in 1977.
I would like to know WHY every FBI agent has AVOIDED discussing the raincoat. I believe it was one of those nylon raincoats - this is just a memory from something he said at that time in 1977.
Duane had a way of swapping things out at check rooms at fancy restuarants...funny I thought about that just now. It did not occur to me that we didn't make enough money to eat in those kind of places - the very best Atlanta and Denver had to offer.
I was so damn naive.
OKAY CKRET - did Cooper also leave the raincoat behind because he said I used to have - not I have?
CKRET another question - IF Cooper had on his jacket plus a raincoat - how in the DEVIL did they see the tie with any detail. What was Cooper concealing under that raincoat.
Maybe it was something that would make him different - such as a backward knee or a stomach that had started to extend with the kidney (I do not know when that started, but sometime between 1970 and 1976). A picture in 1970 shows him with a flat front and then in 1976 an extended abdomen due to the kidney enlarging.
Maybe he went to the Tavern in Ariel at a later date and left it hanging on a coat rack with a momento from Dan Cooper....sat there talking about Cooper and they didn't even recognize him - all they had was the Bing Crosby look-a-like composite. He even left a $20 tip.
They went right back a them ONE more time - just for the fun of it.
.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Even though (in the context presented in this thread (i.e. the info came from a breakfast meeting with Himmelsbach)). Your response reminded me of a life experience, and life experience is what guides my opinions. I went to TMI as part of the Initial Recovery Team (IRT). As far as Health Physics personnel are concerned, the staff on duty at the time of the accident and the IRT were the only people involved prior to the declared entry into Mode IV (declared sub-critical) on day #18 (I believe). This was about 60 to 70 individuals. However, in the 29 years since then, I have talked (personally) to about 400 people who were there before Day #18. And I have read about (sometimes while reading resumes) probably another 100. Boy, it sure was crowded in that little tiny HP Office in the Aux Building.
My point is… just like success has many fathers, a major event has many participants. I sure some of the avowed IRT participants were probably at TMI sometime in their past. Maybe before the accident, maybe in the long-term recovery, but (assuming they aren’t consciously lying) they are convinced it was that last week of March and first two weeks of April 1979.
Could this be the case with Captain Bohan? I don’t know, I’m just asking.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I guess that is my thought on the Bohan incident as well, I also throw in any "eyewitnesses" on the ground in Washington into this category as well. His statement doesn't seem into fit in with any of the other information we have.
80 knot winds at 14,000 are not impossible, but they don't exactly happen every day either. I realize there is the potential for a significant degree of error associated with the FBI map, but judging what we know from the transcripts the wind direction/speed from Bohan doesn't seem to jive with the map. Bohan also mention's being near his fudge factor... Data from Crket, a Farmer's almanac, and even the map posted by Georger or Snowmman earlier don't have wind speeds that high.
Lastly, if the weather was as significant as Bohan seems to indicate, I'd expect to hear something on the 305 transcripts somewhere be it a weather report or a comment from the pilots.
I don't doubt that Tom Bohan was a Continental Captain. I also think it is probable that he could've been flying V-23 from SEA to PDX that night, but I do discount his statement.
Ckret I'd still like you to release what you have on the winds/weather when you get the chance.
....I know that Duane told me during the first yr. I met him - before we got married - he mentioned having a black rain coat.
.....
Duane had a way of swapping things out at check rooms at fancy restuarants...funny I thought about that just now. It did not occur to me that we didn't make enough money to eat in those kind of places - the very best Atlanta and Denver had to offer.
I was so damn naive..
Jo, do you have any idea how that post looks to an objective observer? All that stuff because... Duane once told you that he used to have a black rain coat? How many people do you think used to have black rain coats?! Maybe he "used to" have it because he had this habit of, um, "swapping" coats out at fancy restaurants... which sounds suspiciously like theft to me. Didn't that sound like theft to you? Yes, you do sound like you were, in your own words, naive.
Someone else asked about wearing a raincoat while jumping. We have discussed before the potential problems of coats/loose clothing, which include that of the coat blowing up and preventing the ability to find and pull the ripcord.
Jo, do you have any idea how that post looks to an objective observer? All that stuff because... Duane once told you that he used to have a black rain coat? How many people do you think used to have black rain coats?! Maybe he "used to" have it because he had this habit of, um, "swapping" coats out at fancy restaurants... which sounds suspiciously like theft to me. Didn't that sound like theft to you? Yes, you do sound like you were, in your own words, naive.
I don't care how is sounds to anyone - I am just relating things in our life thru out the yrs.
Obviously I am not trying to cover anything up. Yes, I knew things didn't seem right - remember I had never been around certain elements of our society and I had spent many yrs being a single mom working two and three jobs to support my kids - what help I got from their father bounced liike rubber balls.
I was not only naive - I was not making it on my own and yes, more than once I looked the other way. Self preservation sometimes takes over one's principles...and love is a strange thing. I had never known anyone so protective of me or who treated me the way he did.
Please note that in the early 1980's when I became aware of "other" activity I was leaving him. I have explained this before - he got down on his knees and begged me to stay and vowed that he would never do anything like that again. I went out and got a job so the financial pressure was off of him - prior to that we had worked as a team selling insurance, but the company he had gone to after leaving Colorado did NOT feel comfortable to me - the product felt shaddy and he himself admitted that.
This is the span of time during our marriage that more than one thing happened - but, I won't go into that on a forum or otherwise. We survived and we both went on to be very successful (as a team) - he was a manager and I was an agent. He was also managing several other agents until his kidney disease caught up with him in 1988.
Now, you know more than you need to know. I tell what has to be told because I never know what piece of information might be the key that opens the past.
How else will I be able to find the truth if I don't tell most of what I know about Duane.
CKRET started the tell all thing when he posted Duane's criminal record - most of which I was unaware of...he also promised me a copy of Duane's criminal record which I NEVER received. Perhaps in those detailed records is a key that will jog my memory of something and perhaps there are things there I can dig into - it is a given, the FBI will not do it.
How about it CKRET when will I get those records - do I have to go the local FBI office and sign something. I feel I am intitled to any information you have...at least I will do what I can to investigate it - what is the FBI waiting for - more people in Duane's past to die??????????
High ranking officials?????
Who is Hayden??????
Now who knows something?????? If you dig long enough and deep enough - the past can surface....but you have to know what you are looking for and be objective. I have been accused of not being objective but many others like youself, Orange and the FBI are also not objective.
Don't critize me for saying what has to be said just because it doesn't fit "your" profile of what is or is not in your mind and that of others. Like I said before the truth is all that matters at this time in my life - and not what someone thinks of me.
Why is my doing that not being objective? Ah so it doesn't fit your story or profile of Cooper...so you dismiss it by demeaning me - but that is OK - at least it got YOUR attention. By the way - why do you even read my posts?
The Ariel Tavern story - going right back at them - and a $20 tip.... strange you didn't ask me if that was true? Perhaps someone like Galen Cook will plagurize it for his book.
Watch me - when you think I am kidding I maybe dead serious.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Someone else asked about wearing a raincoat while jumping. We have discussed before the potential problems of coats/loose clothing, which include that of the coat blowing up and preventing the ability to find and pull the ripcord
.***
Orange, I am quiet well aware that we discussed this before and the probablility of not wearing the coat to jump - but the question is -------------
WHERE did the coat go to? Why does the FBI evade the black coat enquiries? When Cooper went to the bathroom - did he come out with or without the coat.
It makes sense that he may have tried to take it with him, but the FBI file eludes this position...did he roll it up to utilize it when he hit the ground or did he stuff it down the toilet or was he wearing it or did he leave it behind...and what happened to the paper bag.
I heard somewhere that Cooper left his coat on the entire time - would he not have been quiet warm in the cabin with the raincoat one? Was he sweating? Was he nervous? Were his eyes shifting very rapidly? But, oh that is right he had his sunglasses on.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Finally found a photo of Martin Joseph McNally after he was caught (June 29, 1972). 28 years old at the time. Jump was June 22. Attached.
Also, by '72 hijacks with parachute demands were so common, they appeared in the normal newspaper comic strip pages. Found one in "Buz Sawyer" next to "Dondi" (attached)
I've covered McNally a lot before but here's some new comments from FBI Agent Neil Welch. Remember McNally was neither pilot nor jumper. Just high school graduate.
"McNally planned everything except the blast of air (when he jumped)." Welch said. "We have reports that McNally has studied previous successful and unsuccessful hijackings. He as made studies of Boeing 727s to determine what speeds an individual can safely jump out"
But then the article says"
'The jetliner was traveling at 320 miles per hour 10,000 feet above north central Indiana when the hijacker bailed out.
McNally was described by authorities as a high school graduate and a veteran of the U.S. Navy. Welch said his family was known and is "substantial and established but not wealthy"
'
(this reminded me of Heady)
I've read other article that mentioned hijackers collecting newspaper clippings of previous hijackings, and the LE moaning about how they learned from prior hijacks.
There are a lot more hijacks where they asked for parachutes, but didn't jump or were shot or arrested somehow. Not going to bother with those.
Ah so it doesn't fit your story or profile of Cooper...so you dismiss it by demeaning me - but that is OK - at least it got YOUR attention. By the way - why do you even read my posts?
jeeeez jo... you just don't get it, do you? it's got nothing to do with fitting "profiles" ... it's the fact that you spin a whole conspiracy/cover-up story around the single fact that Duane apparently used to have a black raincoat! i've seen this described as doing such a good job of being able to join the dots that you can join dots that aren't even there.
btw... i am completely open to whoever fits the actual profile - that was why i asked ckret if fingerprints were found on the aft stairs -- because it may have supported what you said duane said -- but there weren't any to justify this apparent fear.... the fact that duane along with millions of other people used to own a black raincoat, i'm afraid, also is rather less than convincing in trying to place duane on that plane - especially when you yourself have posted how he used to "swap" his clothing items out. accusing people of not being objective just because you haven't presented anything to convince an objective observer doesn't really wash either. much easier for you to convince yourself that anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't objective, i guess
Jo's mixture of blacks and smokejumpers and WWII and prison may be related to this. I suspect the books have pics I won't be able to get. Maybe this will trigger some memories/knowledge? There's a specific reference to black paratroops on a smoke jump at the bottom.
During WWII, they gave conscientious objectors the option of prison or the Civilian Public Service.
Since it's during the time Jo mentioned (WWII), and it shows that they "put" people into smokejumping that were prisoners of a sort, I'm going to explore this more. (edit) total # of CPS smokejumpers apparently only ~300?
"This book tells the story of one important group of World War II conscientious objectors: the men who volunteered for Civilian Public Service as U.S. Forest Service smoke jumpers. Based in Missoula, Montana, the experimental smoke-jumping program began in 1939, but before the project could expand, the war effort drained available manpower. In 1942, the Civilian Public Service volunteers stepped in. Smoke jumping soon became the Forest Service's first line of defense against wildfires in the West."
"The Forest Service selected 60 men who reported for jumper training at Camp Paxson on Seeley Lake, about 60 miles north of Missoula. Most, perhaps all had fought forest fires from their base camps. After jumper training, the Forest Service stationed units at strategic spots throughout the area: Seeley Lake, Big Prairie, and Nine Mile in Montana; Moose Creek and McCall in Idaho; and Redwood Ranger Station (Cave Junction) in southern Oregon. The agency established headquarters for CPS 103, the smokejumper unit administered by the Mennonite Central Committee, in Huson, Mont.
The 1943 unit proved so successful that, by 1944, the Forest Service doubled its request. My part in a mountain rescue while assigned to the Mammoth Lakes side camp of CPS 37 earned me a strong letter of recommendation from the ranger of that district. For that and other reasons, (I had fought a number of fires both at Buck Creek and Coleville CPS camps), the Forest Service chose me as one of the 60 new men to receive jumper training in 1944 at the new Nine Mile base near Huson. Evidently the Forest Service was happy with our work since in 1945 the agency requested additional men to bring camp strength to better than 200. Some CPS men served all three years. I spent two years as a smokejumper, with 20 jumps, 10 training and refresher over the airfield at Nine Mile, and 10 fire jumps into the Idaho wilderness."
Another first person account (interview) that mentions blacks
NOTE: Elmer Neufeld died Monday, June 18,2002 in Boise at age 80. He grew up in Inman, Kan. and was drafted into the Civilian Public Service as a Conscientious Objector during WWII. While at a CPS camp in 1943, he heard of the CPS-103 smokejumper unit that was being formed. Elmer was accepted in 1944 and joined the jumpers at Cave Junction, Ore.
TELL ME ABOUT THE GUYS YOU JUMPED WITH?
I jumped with a guy named Jack Larson (NCSB ’46)... on the Bunker Hill fire. This was the second Bunker Hill fire in ‘46. In ‘45 we had a Bunker Hill fire that went to three hundred acres. And that one had ten smokejumpers and 97 negro paratroopers on it. We had a big fire. The negro paratroopers did a whale of a job fightin’ fire, did a good job.
But in ‘46 I jumped with Jack Larson. I thought he was pretty much indoctrinated with what was going on. He was a little bit behind me in experience. But anyway, we jumped on the ridge, got our chutes, our cargo dropped to us and he said, “Well, let’s go down the hill.” I said, “It’s not there, Jack, that won’t get to the fire.” We couldn’t see the fire from where we were. “Ya,” he said, “that’s the way we gotta go.” So down the hill we went. We missed the fire, I knew that already. So, I says, “Jack, you climb this tree and take a compass with you, place that fire and take a compass reading on it.”
“Oh, there’s the fire over there. So we missed it.” “Yup,” I said, “damned if we didn’t.” So, after that there were very few people that doubted my direction. Because I have a direction... a direction instinct, that many people don’t have. It’s built in.
My guess on the prints is that when HQ say's "not good enough on the the prints you recovered" they went back in and found prints that were of comparison value. Thats not to say HQ is demanding prints at any cost, because what would be the point of that. I think they were making inquiries as to how none of the originals were of comparison value. I have not, however, found anything that points to Cooper reading magazines.
Remember that when they took off the plan was to have Mucklow drop the stairs. Just after takeoff Cooper changed his mind, so I am sure there was some conversation invloved. In regards to the raincoat, I think we have to assume he had it on when he jumped. He did not leave it on the plane but he did leave his tie and the two other chutes. If he was not going to wear the coat I am sure he would have left it as well. I think he threw the briefcase as a favor to Tina.
As for the paper bag, he must have put that in his coat pocket when he jumped.
LaPoint was the last jumper that I hadn't posted a photo of. (attached)
That completes photos of
McCoy
McNally
LaPoint
Heady
Hahneman
I think that's all the jumpers, including Cooper.
2) Another interesting case, which was apparently the first where the hijacker received money. was 1970, not a jumper.
He was a nut job.
Arthur G. Barkley, June 4, 1970
had a tax grudge ($471). Demanded $100 million.
Apparently the first where they actually gave a hijacker money? They gave him $100,750
Not a jumper (note before Cooper)
There's a picture of Barkley during the hijack that was taken by a passenger on the plane. Full article attached.
really strange: quote from the wife afterwards. She was just as whacked: (she's talking about the IRS case he tried taking all the way to the Supreme Court.
(also could example of grudge+money, as I've noted before)
"They gave him a runaround," his wife said. "They wouldn't even listen to him. He did it [the hijacking] to draw attention to his cause. They are letting us sit here and starve to death." Two late-model Cadillacs, however, registered to the Barkleys, were parked outside the house even as she was speaking.
Snowmman, how did you find that Buzz Sawyer strip?
I feel like such a search novice when you turn up stuff like that that has evaded me.
377
How RIGHT you are - that Snowmman is amazing - I have come to believe he might actually be a human computer - How can one human find all of those things.
Sorry Swowmman - but it is true you do amaze all of us.
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skyjack71 0
I believe I have asked that same question and even inquired if Duane was printed at the funeral home. I guess they thought I was crazy and never called me back.
I had heard that if someone is cremated that some states require the person to be fingerprinted.
IS tHIS TRUTH OR RUMOR?
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Sluggo_Monster 0
Sometimes when I get to thinking about NORJAK, all the witness testimony and other evidence (like the transcripts), I begin to think something BIG is missing. I don’t mean “solve the case big,” I mean “I’m not seeing the whole picture” big.
Tonight I started focusing on Tina’s last glance of Cooper while she was closing the F/C curtain. If I have it right, she saw him after he came out of the lavatory and was with him for several minutes before he gave her instructions to; “go to the cockpit, close the curtain, and don’t look back here.” The plane was “wheels-off” at 19:36 and he ordered her forward at 19:41. [This is per the Mid-June transcripts, not my web page timeline.] So, she observed him for a minimum of 5 min (probably a lot more… when you add the time from lavatory exit to takeoff).
Therefore, she must have known exactly what he was wearing when he jumped.
My big question is: Ckret?
Did he have the raincoat on when he jumped (or when Tina saw him tying the bag onto his body)? Surely this issue was discussed in the debrief and in other witness testimony, but everyone discusses it as if he was just in a “business suit”.
What my mind sees is a man who went into the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, came out of the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, then put on a parachute (like he was accustomed to doing it [per Tina’s testimony]) over the trench coat.
To my mind, this does not allow for a discussion (after the fact) that would characterize his dress as “a business suit.” It would seem to me, the likely description would be; “He jumped wearing a black trench coat,” or some such.
I don’t know why this is important to me, except that I am still exploring the concept of something really basic being overlooked.
Some of you
sky apes and bird-turdsskydivers, chime in with a description of how wearing a trench coat would have changed the dynamics of the jump. If it didn’t cause some jump-related technical difficulty, it would have made him a lot warmer.I watched a one-hour English version of the German video (recently posted) the other night and the stunt man who was testing survivability was in a suit (and used a chest chute) for all his jumps and the swimming pool test. {The program was on Discovery Investigation Channel. I still have it on my Charter DVR, I would like to take the digital file off it and make an MPEG or WMV of it. If anyone can give me help, please do so and I’ll share it with you.}
Thanks to all,
Sluggo_Monster
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georger 247
ALSO: Did he leave the brown paper bag behind,
in the Lav ?
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ltdiver 3
It was on "Unsolved History" (Discovery Channel) earlier this year. I have a DVD copy here as well.
Next airing August 28, 2008.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
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snowmman 3
I snipped details of the money delivery. For instance, I've not seen Grinnell's name mentioned before. See below for his role. Also, I guess by 1975, Tina's last name was Larson already?
Here, Lee's name is given as Elwood M. Lee.
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.
Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.
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snowmman 3
Cooper trivia: you're aware that someone soon after the Cooper thing, robbed a bank and apparently wrote "D.B. Cooper" on a deposit slip. They cleared him though. Arvid Julius Kiperts, of Portland, age 41. Questioned about 16 bank robberies. 2/9/73 thru 2/13/73 news articles. arrested for Oct 29 holdup in King City, OR. Dec 1971 bank robbery in Witsonville, south of Portland, was the Cooper related one.
I always wonder when people say something like "Cooper may have been a bank robber".. I wonder how people know about bank robbers?
Here's a good link with some data on bank robberies
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/print/
2007 Q4 FBI stats:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/bcs/bcs2007/bank_crime_2007q4.htm
Another thing I thought interesting, is that we talk about motives, but a nice report at the FBI site on solving serial murder crimes, points out that it can be a waste of time. I think the same for something like the Cooper case.
It was interesting, that even today, the FBI has to deal with the issue of "myths" around serial murderers.
nice report:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/serial_murder.pdf
You're also aware that Paul Cini did a parachute attempt (apparently) 2 weeks before Cooper. He was in a DC-8 though. Bad choice, right? I guess he was kind of an idiot though.
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skyjack71 0
I harped on the black rain coat for a long time, because it almost seems like a lost fact. One of the first things I told the FBI in 1996 when I contacted them and my other contacts with Ralph Hope and retired agent Himmelsbach - no one ever reacts to the BLACK RAINCOAT. I know that Duane told me during the first yr. I met him - before we got married - he mentioned having a black rain coat.
OKAY CKRET - did Cooper also leave the raincoat behind because he said I used to have - not I have?
Maybe he went to the Tavern in Ariel at a later date and left it hanging on a coat rack with a momento from Dan Cooper....sat there talking about Cooper and they didn't even recognize him - all they had was the Bing Crosby look-a-like composite. He even left a $20 tip.
The conversation took place when I went to help him get somethings out of his car trunk at my apartment in Atlanta - he always kept a metal file cabinet in there and it was locked...I would never know the contents of this cabinet until a later date, but prior to that he replaced the large metal box for a smaller box.
The first time I saw the tax reports he had kept since 1969..(his first yr as Duane L. Weber - these items would only have consumed 1/4 fo 1/3 of that box). These were in the same box as the Ticket in 1994 . He had combined the contents of the metal box with shop records for 1990 - when ALL of those OTHER strange things happened.
If you will recall it was February of 1994 when I saw the airline ticket, but is was also the first time I saw those tax reports. I did not have reason to review them in any detail until 1996 after that day in May when I found out who Dan Cooper was.
So if Duane was probagating a confession - he started on it before he married me in 1977.
I would like to know WHY every FBI agent has AVOIDED discussing the raincoat. I believe it was one of those nylon raincoats - this is just a memory from something he said at that time in 1977.
Duane had a way of swapping things out at check rooms at fancy restuarants...funny I thought about that just now. It did not occur to me that we didn't make enough money to eat in those kind of places - the very best Atlanta and Denver had to offer.
I was so damn naive.
CKRET another question - IF Cooper had on his jacket plus a raincoat - how in the DEVIL did they see the tie with any detail. What was Cooper concealing under that raincoat.
Maybe it was something that would make him different - such as a backward knee or a stomach that had started to extend with the kidney (I do not know when that started, but sometime between 1970 and 1976). A picture in 1970 shows him with a flat front and then in 1976 an extended abdomen due to the kidney enlarging.
They went right back a them ONE more time - just for the fun of it.
.
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Mr.Nuke 0
I guess that is my thought on the Bohan incident as well, I also throw in any "eyewitnesses" on the ground in Washington into this category as well. His statement doesn't seem into fit in with any of the other information we have.
80 knot winds at 14,000 are not impossible, but they don't exactly happen every day either. I realize there is the potential for a significant degree of error associated with the FBI map, but judging what we know from the transcripts the wind direction/speed from Bohan doesn't seem to jive with the map. Bohan also mention's being near his fudge factor... Data from Crket, a Farmer's almanac, and even the map posted by Georger or Snowmman earlier don't have wind speeds that high.
Lastly, if the weather was as significant as Bohan seems to indicate, I'd expect to hear something on the 305 transcripts somewhere be it a weather report or a comment from the pilots.
I don't doubt that Tom Bohan was a Continental Captain. I also think it is probable that he could've been flying V-23 from SEA to PDX that night, but I do discount his statement.
Ckret I'd still like you to release what you have on the winds/weather when you get the chance.
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Orange1 0
Jo, do you have any idea how that post looks to an objective observer? All that stuff because... Duane once told you that he used to have a black rain coat? How many people do you think used to have black rain coats?! Maybe he "used to" have it because he had this habit of, um, "swapping" coats out at fancy restaurants... which sounds suspiciously like theft to me. Didn't that sound like theft to you? Yes, you do sound like you were, in your own words, naive.
Someone else asked about wearing a raincoat while jumping. We have discussed before the potential problems of coats/loose clothing, which include that of the coat blowing up and preventing the ability to find and pull the ripcord.
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skyjack71 0
I don't care how is sounds to anyone - I am just relating things in our life thru out the yrs.
Obviously I am not trying to cover anything up. Yes, I knew things didn't seem right - remember I had never been around certain elements of our society and I had spent many yrs being a single mom working two and three jobs to support my kids - what help I got from their father bounced liike rubber balls.
I was not only naive - I was not making it on my own and yes, more than once I looked the other way. Self preservation sometimes takes over one's principles...and love is a strange thing. I had never known anyone so protective of me or who treated me the way he did.
Please note that in the early 1980's when I became aware of "other" activity I was leaving him. I have explained this before - he got down on his knees and begged me to stay and vowed that he would never do anything like that again. I went out and got a job so the financial pressure was off of him - prior to that we had worked as a team selling insurance, but the company he had gone to after leaving Colorado did NOT feel comfortable to me - the product felt shaddy and he himself admitted that.
This is the span of time during our marriage that more than one thing happened - but, I won't go into that on a forum or otherwise. We survived and we both went on to be very successful (as a team) - he was a manager and I was an agent. He was also managing several other agents until his kidney disease caught up with him in 1988.
Now, you know more than you need to know. I tell what has to be told because I never know what piece of information might be the key that opens the past.
How else will I be able to find the truth if I don't tell most of what I know about Duane.
CKRET started the tell all thing when he posted Duane's criminal record - most of which I was unaware of...he also promised me a copy of Duane's criminal record which I NEVER received. Perhaps in those detailed records is a key that will jog my memory of something and perhaps there are things there I can dig into - it is a given, the FBI will not do it.
How about it CKRET when will I get those records - do I have to go the local FBI office and sign something. I feel I am intitled to any information you have...at least I will do what I can to investigate it - what is the FBI waiting for - more people in Duane's past to die??????????
High ranking officials?????
Who is Hayden??????
Now who knows something??????
If you dig long enough and deep enough - the past can surface....but you have to know what you are looking for and be objective. I have been accused of not being objective but many others like youself, Orange and the FBI are also not objective.
Don't critize me for saying what has to be said just because it doesn't fit "your" profile of what is or is not in your mind and that of others. Like I said before the truth is all that matters at this time in my life - and not what someone thinks of me.
Why is my doing that not being objective? Ah so it doesn't fit your story or profile of Cooper...so you dismiss it by demeaning me - but that is OK - at least it got YOUR attention. By the way - why do you even read my posts?
The Ariel Tavern story - going right back at them - and a $20 tip.... strange you didn't ask me if that was true? Perhaps someone like Galen Cook will plagurize it for his book.
Watch me - when you think I am kidding I maybe dead serious.
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skyjack71 0
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snowmman 3
Finally found a photo of Martin Joseph McNally after he was caught (June 29, 1972). 28 years old at the time. Jump was June 22. Attached.
Also, by '72 hijacks with parachute demands were so common, they appeared in the normal newspaper comic strip pages. Found one in "Buz Sawyer" next to "Dondi" (attached)
I've covered McNally a lot before but here's some new comments from FBI Agent Neil Welch. Remember McNally was neither pilot nor jumper. Just high school graduate.
"McNally planned everything except the blast of air (when he jumped)." Welch said. "We have reports that McNally has studied previous successful and unsuccessful hijackings. He as made studies of Boeing 727s to determine what speeds an individual can safely jump out"
But then the article says"
'The jetliner was traveling at 320 miles per hour 10,000 feet above north central Indiana when the hijacker bailed out.
McNally was described by authorities as a high school graduate and a veteran of the U.S. Navy. Welch said his family was known and is "substantial and established but not wealthy"
'
(this reminded me of Heady)
I've read other article that mentioned hijackers collecting newspaper clippings of previous hijackings, and the LE moaning about how they learned from prior hijacks.
There are a lot more hijacks where they asked for parachutes, but didn't jump or were shot or arrested somehow. Not going to bother with those.
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Orange1 0
jeeeez jo... you just don't get it, do you? it's got nothing to do with fitting "profiles" ... it's the fact that you spin a whole conspiracy/cover-up story around the single fact that Duane apparently used to have a black raincoat! i've seen this described as doing such a good job of being able to join the dots that you can join dots that aren't even there.
btw... i am completely open to whoever fits the actual profile - that was why i asked ckret if fingerprints were found on the aft stairs -- because it may have supported what you said duane said -- but there weren't any to justify this apparent fear.... the fact that duane along with millions of other people used to own a black raincoat, i'm afraid, also is rather less than convincing in trying to place duane on that plane - especially when you yourself have posted how he used to "swap" his clothing items out. accusing people of not being objective just because you haven't presented anything to convince an objective observer doesn't really wash either. much easier for you to convince yourself that anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't objective, i guess
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377 22
I feel like such a search novice when you turn up stuff like that that has evaded me.
377
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snowmman 3
Jo's mixture of blacks and smokejumpers and WWII and prison may be related to this. I suspect the books have pics I won't be able to get. Maybe this will trigger some memories/knowledge? There's a specific reference to black paratroops on a smoke jump at the bottom.
During WWII, they gave conscientious objectors the option of prison or the Civilian Public Service.
Wikipedia has details of the CPS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service
What's more interesting, is that they apparently trained members of the CPS for smoke jumping. There is a whole book dedicated to this, available on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Smokejumpers-Civilian-Public-Service-World/dp/0786425334
I've attached a pic of the book.
Since it's during the time Jo mentioned (WWII), and it shows that they "put" people into smokejumping that were prisoners of a sort, I'm going to explore this more. (edit) total # of CPS smokejumpers apparently only ~300?
another book:
http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780806137667-0
"This book tells the story of one important group of World War II conscientious objectors: the men who volunteered for Civilian Public Service as U.S. Forest Service smoke jumpers. Based in Missoula, Montana, the experimental smoke-jumping program began in 1939, but before the project could expand, the war effort drained available manpower. In 1942, the Civilian Public Service volunteers stepped in. Smoke jumping soon became the Forest Service's first line of defense against wildfires in the West."
firsthand account here (missoula '44)
http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=252&magazine_editions_id=17
"The Forest Service selected 60 men who reported for jumper training at Camp Paxson on Seeley Lake, about 60 miles north of Missoula. Most, perhaps all had fought forest fires from their base camps. After jumper training, the Forest Service stationed units at strategic spots throughout the area: Seeley Lake, Big Prairie, and Nine Mile in Montana; Moose Creek and McCall in Idaho; and Redwood Ranger Station (Cave Junction) in southern Oregon. The agency established headquarters for CPS 103, the smokejumper unit administered by the Mennonite Central Committee, in Huson, Mont.
The 1943 unit proved so successful that, by 1944, the Forest Service doubled its request. My part in a mountain rescue while assigned to the Mammoth Lakes side camp of CPS 37 earned me a strong letter of recommendation from the ranger of that district. For that and other reasons, (I had fought a number of fires both at Buck Creek and Coleville CPS camps), the Forest Service chose me as one of the 60 new men to receive jumper training in 1944 at the new Nine Mile base near Huson. Evidently the Forest Service was happy with our work since in 1945 the agency requested additional men to bring camp strength to better than 200. Some CPS men served all three years. I spent two years as a smokejumper, with 20 jumps, 10 training and refresher over the airfield at Nine Mile, and 10 fire jumps into the Idaho wilderness."
Another first person account (interview) that mentions blacks
http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=261&magazine_editions_id=11
NOTE: Elmer Neufeld died Monday, June 18,2002 in Boise at age 80. He grew up in Inman, Kan. and was drafted into the Civilian Public Service as a Conscientious Objector during WWII. While at a CPS camp in 1943, he heard of the CPS-103 smokejumper unit that was being formed. Elmer was accepted in 1944 and joined the jumpers at Cave Junction, Ore.
TELL ME ABOUT THE GUYS YOU JUMPED WITH?
I jumped with a guy named Jack Larson (NCSB ’46)... on the Bunker Hill fire. This was the second Bunker Hill fire in ‘46. In ‘45 we had a Bunker Hill fire that went to three hundred acres. And that one had ten smokejumpers and 97 negro paratroopers on it. We had a big fire. The negro paratroopers did a whale of a job fightin’ fire, did a good job.
But in ‘46 I jumped with Jack Larson. I thought he was pretty much indoctrinated with what was going on. He was a little bit behind me in experience. But anyway, we jumped on the ridge, got our chutes, our cargo dropped to us and he said, “Well, let’s go down the hill.” I said, “It’s not there, Jack, that won’t get to the fire.” We couldn’t see the fire from where we were. “Ya,” he said, “that’s the way we gotta go.” So down the hill we went. We missed the fire, I knew that already. So, I says, “Jack, you climb this tree and take a compass with you, place that fire and take a compass reading on it.”
“Oh, there’s the fire over there. So we missed it.” “Yup,” I said, “damned if we didn’t.” So, after that there were very few people that doubted my direction. Because I have a direction... a direction instinct, that many people don’t have. It’s built in.
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snowmman 3
The OCR stuff in Google News apparently was able to recognize the text of the lettering in the bubbles.
It won't be long before we're able to search for images that "look like" something. Or something that "sounds like" something.
I had to look up Buz Sawyer in wikipedia. Didn't recognize it. I do remember Dondi though, as a kid.
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Ckret 0
Snowmman,
My guess on the prints is that when HQ say's "not good enough on the the prints you recovered" they went back in and found prints that were of comparison value. Thats not to say HQ is demanding prints at any cost, because what would be the point of that. I think they were making inquiries as to how none of the originals were of comparison value. I have not, however, found anything that points to Cooper reading magazines.
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Ckret 0
Sluggo,
Remember that when they took off the plan was to have Mucklow drop the stairs. Just after takeoff Cooper changed his mind, so I am sure there was some conversation invloved. In regards to the raincoat, I think we have to assume he had it on when he jumped. He did not leave it on the plane but he did leave his tie and the two other chutes. If he was not going to wear the coat I am sure he would have left it as well. I think he threw the briefcase as a favor to Tina.
As for the paper bag, he must have put that in his coat pocket when he jumped.
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Sluggo_Monster 0
My favorites were Smilin' Jack and Steve Canyon.
Sluggo_Monster
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snowmman 3
That completes photos of
McCoy
McNally
LaPoint
Heady
Hahneman
I think that's all the jumpers, including Cooper.
2) Another interesting case, which was apparently the first where the hijacker received money. was 1970, not a jumper.
He was a nut job.
Arthur G. Barkley, June 4, 1970
had a tax grudge ($471). Demanded $100 million.
Apparently the first where they actually gave a hijacker money? They gave him $100,750
Not a jumper (note before Cooper)
There's a picture of Barkley during the hijack that was taken by a passenger on the plane. Full article attached.
(edit) Oddly enough, Barkley was on a 727. I guess shows how common they were. Time's account on 7/15/70 is at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909374,00.html
really strange: quote from the wife afterwards. She was just as whacked: (she's talking about the IRS case he tried taking all the way to the Supreme Court.
(also could example of grudge+money, as I've noted before)
"They gave him a runaround," his wife said. "They wouldn't even listen to him. He did it [the hijacking] to draw attention to his cause. They are letting us sit here and starve to death." Two late-model Cadillacs, however, registered to the Barkleys, were parked outside the house even as she was speaking.
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skyjack71 0
How RIGHT you are - that Snowmman is amazing - I have come to believe he might actually be a human computer - How can one human find all of those things.
Sorry Swowmman - but it is true you do amaze all of us.
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