DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify?

on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following:

Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

If you will note at that time in this thread CKRET was doing a lot of speculation and I felt it unprofession for him to be doing this and now refrains from doing so.

We need to see the documentation from the FOIA in regards to this.

Many interpretations can be drawn from the statement made by CKRET.

What did a frightened young stewardess actually see? Could she have thought he was devising handles when it could have been loops to attach the package to himself?

As for tying rope around his waist - what did she actually see? Considering the lenght of rope removed from the chute - perhaps what she saw was his using a piece of rope to secure the package to his waist, but from what direction did she view this. If he had been facing her he would have noted her observance and have told her to go on forward.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor?

As I said you are beginng to sound like someone else - and not Georger.

SLUGGO - please come back - I am not young enough or smart enough to keep the Myths and facts separate.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Yeah Sluggo, don't let Hoop or anyone else get under your skin. The First Amendment is alive on this forum as long as we are not mean to each other. All views are welcome.

As for my point of view, non jumpers give us fresh views, raise points we jumpers would not have thought of, and... most importantly: pursue diligent time consuming research that most of us ADD/short attention span jumpers would flake out on after ten minutes. Compare the depth of your and Snowmman's Cooper related research work compared to that done by any jumpers, including yours truly. Georger digs deep too but he is a jumper.

Stay aboard, don't eject.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor?

Whenever georger posts something in shorthand (edit) or slightly misremembered, I always know what he's referring to. (see georger's original post for the main point he was trying to make).
When a response post implies georger is dense, I can never understand it. Is it like a game the republicans play...i.e. lets pretend everyone is stupid, and score points wherever we can? Okay well I guess that can be fun too. (edit) I'll call the eight ball on this game and predict I win, regardless of how we twist and turn. Takers? No there won't be, because it's a stupid game that just stupid people play.


Here are the relevant posts from Ckret about the parachute instructions that Cooper acted dismissively toward.

The only other thing that comes to mind is the toilet paper Cooper wiped with that Ckret says was found on I5. [Joke]


Ckret June 13, 2008 10:41 PM
Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...."

Ckret June 14, 2008 10:54 AM
In true Cooper fashion, when Tina tried to give him the instruction sheet he said, "I don't need those."

There was no other mention of the instruction sheet after that.

Ckret June 14, 2008 3:13 PM
I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey.

I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.

Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.

[NickDG 23]

>>I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.
Never heard about the instruction sheet before. But I can't see Cossey, or any rigger, packing up a rig for use that would require some kind of caveat to normal operation. Going a bit further that would actually be illegal. And what would the instructions have said? Pull harder? Anyone, even a complete neophyte, who had a hard ripcord pull would just naturally do that.

There's another angle to this hard pull concept too. If the container was equipped with metal cones to hold the ripcord pins, as rigs of that vintage were, then unless Cossey used some kind of mechanical leverage device to close the container (doubtful) you could be safe saying if it was closed by hand - it could be opened by hand.

Could the instructions have been of a generic nature and for the benefit of a crew member Cooper might have forced to jump with him? If not does it mean they had some inkling, or assumed, Cooper had no parachuting experience? And if they did what was their motivation in trying to help him successfully make the jump?

And where did they even get a set of instructions if not from Cossey? There are owner's manuals and packing instructions for all pilot and sport rigs, but this NB-6 was a military surplus container. A military base may have a book on it, but it would be just that, a book.

But If Cossey dealt with sport pilot's rigs he might have something like a one page instruction sheet on hand. He might give them out to aerobatic pilots as they must wear parachutes and most have no parachuting experience or formal training. And that's another point. Think of all the emergency parachute jumps, both civilian and military, done since parachutes were invented. More often than not they were successful and more often than not they were done by people who had never jumped before . . .

NickD

[georger 247]

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Quote

REPLY> My uncle went in over Belgium with
exactly five jumps and two of those from training
towers (so 3 actual jumps from low alt in a C47).

But Belgium presumably would have been WW2? I know an ex-paratrooper with over 50 jumps - 5 training (from planes not towers) and the rest combat (and all of them SL), but it was a different era and a different war. Given the time of the hijacking, Cooper may have been a Vietnam (or Korea) vet and I was wondering more about then - I have no knowledge whatsoever of paratrooper deployment in those wars. I think I recall reading about US paratrooper involvement in something happening in the middle east around that era as well but cannot be 100% certain that memory is right.

REPLY> In my uncle's case, his citation meant they
were training people with few jumps and dropping them into combat in EU.

If Coop was say 47 in 1971 that makes him 18 in
1942 and born ~1924, well within the WWII generation but too old for Nam unless he was
still AD at age 38 (in 1962). Vietnam began roughly
1958 under Ike but wasnt really active (taking people) unless say 1962-3. Everyone thought
Cooper was more like 50 (1971).

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify?

on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following:

Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

If you will note at that time in this thread CKRET was doing a lot of speculation and I felt it unprofession for him to be doing this and now refrains from doing so.

CKRET> I take anything Ckret says as authoritative.
He is in this to solve the case, not play games.

Thanks,
Georger

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

>>I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.<<

Never heard about the instruction sheet before.

Hi NickD. Okay then hold onto the firehose:

hey it's good to revisit what led to the instruction sheet discussion then. (edit) just read your comments about "illegal"...The theory was that Cossey modified the rip for his own personal use. But then again, no one verified all this with Cossey. We're going off a conversation Ckret had recently with Cossey (in April)

It's in the thread, but I'll extract the relevant stuff so we're all in sync. I'm real curious about NickD's feedback on this. Especially if there are any thoughts about Cooper actions that might betray experience or non-experience.

The key was an apparent right hand pull ripcord mod that Cossey evidently did.

Ckret described how Cossey demonstrated the required pull with his right hand, going out and up:

Later, Ckret mentioned the instruction sheet, and we were guessing that maybe it was because of this modified pull, but then Ckret mentioned it's not clear if Cossey created the instruction sheet or what..(see my prior post with the relevant Ckret snippets)

Tell me if these post snippets don't cover it right..or go back in the thread around the dates/times shown.

In any case, both the attitude towards the instruction sheet (although Ckret points out he might have later read it when Tina was gone) and the modified rip may give us some info, or not. In fact the modified rip could easily be argued for a no-pull situation?


posts snipped here:

***
Ckret June 13, 2008 9:56 AM
He [Cossey] talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed.

Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull?

***
Ckret June 13, 2008 3:42 PM

Back to the NB6, Cossey modified the chute, we know that from the 28' canopy. And when we spoke he said he placed the handle under the right armpit. The motion he showed me was that Cooper would have had to hook his right thumb in the handle and push straight out, like a bench press motion. Once fully extended, he would have had to rotate his fully extended arm up over his head.

Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left?

***
nitrochute, June 13, 2008 4:03 PM

hmmmm....it appears that cossey modified the location of the ripcord.but i still am unclear on why he would do that. i have in 40+ years never seen somone do such an odd mod to a pilot emergency chute. was cossey a pilot as well as a rigger /jumper? and the chute was used strictly by him when he flew jumpers?. it seems such an odd set up from your description. does cossey have any interest in joining us on this forum?if it was set up that way i can almost guarantee that cooper bounced because it is such an odd configuration.

***
Guru312 June 13, 2008 6:37 PM

> Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate
> right handed and he really meant left?

Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually.

I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!"

As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would.

His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right.

Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out.

My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor?

Snowmman you are getting this all messed up. The packing card was something that is packed with the chute telling who packed it (as to my understanding ). The only time a packing card was mentioned was in one of the fiction books.

We are ALL aware of the instruction sheet that Tina was given - a packing card in the chute and the instruction sheet Tina had possession of are TWO different animals as I understand it.

If I am wrong ok - but you guys (skydivers hashed this out in the other thread or earlier in this one) I had nothing to do with it that information. One is fiction and one is fact. But both are not fact.

[georger 247]

But If Cossey dealt with sport pilot's rigs he might have something like a one page instruction sheet on hand. He might give them out to aerobatic pilots as they must wear parachutes and most have no parachuting experience or formal training. And that's another point. Think of all the emergency parachute jumps, both civilian and military, done since parachutes were invented. More often than not they were successful and more often than not they were done by people who had never jumped before . . .

NickD

REPLY> I wasnt there but yours above or something along those lines is my guess and I am assuming
the 'cards' were in the NB6's only because Cossey
placed them there on purpose at his home.

I have three different versions of how the chutes
were procured - all versions close in detail. The front packs came from the jump school after hours.
Cossey was not there. One of the staff supplied those, pulled them off a shelf and that is how the training pack got thrown in by mistake. Cossey discovered this later because he knew what packs
were on the shelves in specific places.

Cossey was at home and supplied the 2 NB6 back
packs at his home, they were rushed to the airport.
Cossey may have thrown the instruction cards in just
to be safe, complete, or to cover himself legally ? Only Cossey could explain and Im sure he already has, to someone. .

But somebody calls you up and says they want four parachutes in an emergency, so what do you do?
From Cossey's viewpoint only God knew where these
chutes would wind up and be used, et cetera ...
with who being legally liable should anything go wrong. I can see Master Rigger Cossey throwing some instruction cards in ... I would! That Cooper
tossed the cards aside saying 'I dont need to read
those' (or whatever) means nothing in and of itself.
(He also jumped and down like a kid at the sight of $200000 in a bag, in the middle of a hijacking, so
Im not prone to give Coop to much credit on the
scale of rationality or experience.)

The only thing that smacks of experience is Tina's statement that Coop dawned the NB6 with ease as
if he had done it before.

But, Cooper did not specify anything about the chutes he wanted. Nada. (He did not ask for V23 either).

The fact that he had to cut lines at all (2) and made a hand hold loop out of one of those would seem to
select against Cossey having supplied belly straps
etc. Cossey may have simply supplied packs without
anything attached to them - Cossey would know.

He asked for a knapsack but he didnt get that either
and he didnt complain about it.

We all know his reserves were pointless anyway. So
if you think about this he had two ready containers
which would have held (together) all the money and
more. Instead we find this guy fumbling around
as Tina describes finally cutting lines and trying to
tie the bank bag around his waste? That is amateur
stuff!

And he actually takes a reserve pack with him! What
in blazes did he think he would do with that? Need it?

Something does not add up for Cooper being an experienced chutist.

George

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor?

REPLY> OK you are technically correct. Tina had the
instruction sheet(s) - the packing cards were "in" the chutes.

Strange turnaround you've done since saying there
were no instruction sheets - now you are anexpert!


Snowmman you are getting this all messed up. The packing card was something that is packed with the chute telling who packed it (as to my understanding ). The only time a packing card was mentioned was in one of the fiction books.

We are ALL aware of the instruction sheet that Tina was given - a packing card in the chute and the instruction sheet Tina had possession of are TWO different animals as I understand it.

If I am wrong ok - but you guys (skydivers hashed this out in the other thread or earlier in this one) I had nothing to do with it that information. One is fiction and one is fact. But both are not fact.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

What did a frightened young stewardess actually see? Could she have thought he was devising handles when it could have been loops to attach the package to himself?

As for tying a rope around his waist - what did she actually see? Considering the lenght of rope removed from the chute - perhaps what she saw was his using a piece of rope to secure the package to his waist, but from what direction did she view this. If he had been facing her he would have noted her observance and have told her to go on forward.

I want to know if anyone has notice in the past several months that when any of us make a post that suggests something we were not aware of before and going in a positive direction the following posts go a complete different direction.

Now this is parnoid at its height -It is as though we are being diverted to a different train of thought on purpose.

We were talking about how the money was attached and suddenly we go into a repetive back lash. Different trains for different folks I guess.

I was really interested in the line of thought we had going about the attachment of the money to the jumper.

Maybe I am watching too much - of the Presidential crap on TV. Have you notice the candidates when asked a question end up NOT answering the question, but leading the interviewer in a different direct - the question never gets answered?

Politics and Cooper sure have a lot in common...twisting of facts, lots of misinformation, answering questions with a leading diverson.

I believe it is called the DUMBING down of AMERICA. Right now I don't want to vote for either of them. Neither one of the candidates gives direct answers.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

This is worst than the convention - the packing cards - we never even knew if that was true - it was in a book. Who cares?

Dual personality or two people using one posting name? This actually happened on another forum regarding Cooper. I am getting that same feeling here.


Skyjumpers

Attention Nick:
If I could get the answer to the question I asked Nick about the ropes - handles versus loops - I would appreciate it.

Attention Nitro:
I couldn't find the pic of the alligator clips - are they similar to the alligator clips used in an office? Doubt it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

I want to know if anyone has noticed in the past several months that when any of us make a post that suggests something we were not aware of before and going in a positive direction the following posts go a complete different direction.

Quote

No, I haven't noticed that. How do you define "positive direction?"

Right now I don't want to vote for either of them. Neither one of the candidates gives direct answers.***

They are both just practicing to be President.

"Barbie" (Cindy) doesn't like Sarah.

"Damn it John, how could you??? You told me you'd pick Colin Powell. I didn't fund this campaign just to have you distract everyone from MY beauty. I am the peach. I am the prize. Alaska is just a goddamned arctic trailer park that somehow achieved statehood and she is just a small town mayor with a big butt"

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Please keep the discussion here limited to DB Cooper.

If you guys want to discuss politics, we actually do have an 8th Circle of Hell called Speakers Corner. Beware . . . evil lurks inside.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georger 247]

Quote

Please keep the discussion here limited to DB Cooper.

If you guys want to discuss politics, we actually do have an 8th Circle of Hell called Speakers Corner. Beware . . . evil lurks inside.

REPLY: Thank you. Agree. Appreciated.

Georger

[377 22]

OK Quade.

Now back to Cooper. I wish someone would pack a rig just like the one Cooper used and measure the pull force. I had a couple of really hard pulls on rented surplus gear back in the 60s, non extended military containers and 28 ft C 9s. It was scary and disorienting... and that was jumping from a slow flying Cessna on a warm clear summer day. What comes to a mind in the first stage of panic is that you must be pulling on the wrong object which could cause you to drop the handle grip and start pulling frantically on something else.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

There were no belly bands given with the chest chutes.

[nitrochute 2]

do we know if there were pilotchutes installed on those chest pack chutes? there is no placard warning that the pilotchute had been removed (as required by faa regs) in the pix of the chest chutes, but as we have seen , the letter of the law certainly has not been followed regarding the packing and maintainance of the chutes. if there were pilotchutes, there would be a bridle line (made of anything from 550 cord to 1/2 '' tubular to 3/4'' tubular nylon) up to 2 or 3 feet in length. it wouldcertainly have given ol coop some more stuff to attatch the money to hisself.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

There were no belly bands given with the chest chutes.

Ckret, some questions when you find time:

1) any thoughts on the white cord/line on the side straps of the chest chute that you have? Were they there before Cooper got it? Or did Cooper put them on? or is it just unknown?

I could imagine that someone before Cooper might have tried to jury-rig a belly-band..but it's odd that at least one of the white cords appears frayed, as if cut.

2) are there cords inside the chest container? (cut?) if so: what color?

3) Can you confirm whether a rip was found, or not, for the chest container?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

What did a frightened young stewardess actually see? Could she have thought he was devising handles when it could have been loops to attach the package to himself?

As for tying a rope around his waist - what did she actually see? Considering the lenght of rope removed from the chute - perhaps what she saw was his using a piece of rope to secure the package to his waist, but from what direction did she view this. If he had been facing her he would have noted her observance and have told her to go on forward.

I want to know if anyone has notice in the past several months that when any of us make a post that suggests something we were not aware of before and going in a positive direction the following posts go a complete different direction.

Now this is parnoid at its height -It is as though we are being diverted to a different train of thought on purpose.

We were talking about how the money was attached and suddenly we go into a repetive back lash. Different trains for different folks I guess.

I was really interested in the line of thought we had going about the attachment of the money to the jumper.

Well, Jo, the link to the transcript has been posted here more than once. It is in there that Tina saw him tying something around his waist. I would take that as pretty authoritative as it was a report Tina made right at the time. It is certainly not Ckret's speculation. I wonder what agenda you have for now trying to cast doubt on what she said she saw, at the time - NOT published later in anyone's book, etc.

Your paranoia is almost amusing. You were really interested in how the money was tied? Apart from the fact that I seem to recall a LOT of discussion on that topic - how does that square with your later post that you weren't interested in theories about anything except Duane? as you said:

Quote

All of this talk about the chutes and the money is not going to solve this case - and tell us who Dan Cooper was.

The more I learn about Duane Weber the more confusing this gets.

Of course, it might simply be the case that different people have different opinions - that what you think is a "positive direction" may not be viewed as such by others, and vice versa. People will naturally keep posting on what they find interesting or think will actually lead somewhere, and let other topics drop.

By the way, I do think your insistence on trying to keep facts from fiction is commendable. I also think what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so perhaps you would try stick to that rule too?

And a final PS: it gets really tiresome when you start accusing, directly or indirectly, anyone whose thoughts you don't seem to like of being previous posters, authors incognito, etc. I see the mere mention of Mayfield has brought that up again. Tell you what: you keep on asking people to prove that Duane Weber wasn't Cooper. Why don't you prove that Mayfield wasn't Cooper? You say that previous discussions dismissed him - I am not entirely convinced yet that he wasn't, and from a couple of PM conversations I have had I know he is still considered a possibility by others (old time jumpers, not authors etc).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

Quote

There were no belly bands given with the chest chutes.

REPLY:

Thanks.

[snowmman 3]

Okay. you jumpers have talked about how tight the community is, and how everyone knows everyone, and us nonjumpers just don't quite understand.

Well, I'm kind of flabbergasted right now (and feel like the outsider Hoop likes to describe). I posted those pics of Brett Maurer's first jump, which was off El Cap. I didn't have any background on it other than the caption from the '84 article. I mentioned that some pics of Robin Heid were also in Leavitt's article, along with Rob Slater.

And then what do you know? I get a PM from XXXXX XXXXX giving the details. I'm blown away..feels like just 1 or 2 degrees of Kevin Bacon :)

What's interesting from the Cooper angle was that there was prior tunnel time (a little). So more pre-jump training than I thought.

(Sections redacted at request of the original author.)

[georger 247]

I see the mere mention of Mayfield has brought that up again. Tell you what: you keep on asking people to prove that Duane Weber wasn't Cooper. Why don't you prove that Mayfield wasn't Cooper? You say that previous discussions dismissed him - I am not entirely convinced yet that he wasn't, and from a couple of PM conversations I have had I know he is still considered a possibility by others (old time jumpers, not authors etc).