Recommended Posts
snowmman 3
Ckret:
I know I've posted a lot of drivel recently, but the flight timetable does raise some questions.
I know there was a lot of convoluted detail that was posted.
But the main question is: Is there anything in the case file where the itinerary for flight 305 was investigated?
Specifically
1) when it started including stops in Missoula, and
2) when it added the leg from PDX to Seattle. It had to be between 10/1/71 and 11/24/71, unless there was a special regional schedule.
The PDX to SEA leg is interesting because it's the last leg of a long itinerary for 305. Was that part of a plan to get a 727? or was it just random..i.e. it happened to be the next flight when Cooper walked up to the ticket counter.
Also: was there any comparison done on the full Northwest schedule out of PDX, to understand how often 727's were used? I'm guessing the other predominant plane used was 707.
We've guessed that the 727 was by choice. I'm wondering if most of the flights out of PDX, to SEA at least, were 727, or whether this angle was ever investigated.
Nowadays, most of the flights from PDX to SEA are United and Alaska Air, and are small jets. Back then, I don't think smaller planes were used for the short hops, but I don't know.
I know I've posted a lot of drivel recently, but the flight timetable does raise some questions.
I know there was a lot of convoluted detail that was posted.
But the main question is: Is there anything in the case file where the itinerary for flight 305 was investigated?
Specifically
1) when it started including stops in Missoula, and
2) when it added the leg from PDX to Seattle. It had to be between 10/1/71 and 11/24/71, unless there was a special regional schedule.
The PDX to SEA leg is interesting because it's the last leg of a long itinerary for 305. Was that part of a plan to get a 727? or was it just random..i.e. it happened to be the next flight when Cooper walked up to the ticket counter.
Also: was there any comparison done on the full Northwest schedule out of PDX, to understand how often 727's were used? I'm guessing the other predominant plane used was 707.
We've guessed that the 727 was by choice. I'm wondering if most of the flights out of PDX, to SEA at least, were 727, or whether this angle was ever investigated.
Nowadays, most of the flights from PDX to SEA are United and Alaska Air, and are small jets. Back then, I don't think smaller planes were used for the short hops, but I don't know.
georger 247
QuoteCkret:
I know I've posted a lot of drivel recently, but the flight timetable does raise some questions.
I know there was a lot of convoluted detail that was posted.
But the main question is: Is there anything in the case file where the itinerary for flight 305 was investigated?
Specifically
1) when it started including stops in Missoula, and
2) when it added the leg from PDX to Seattle. It had to be between 10/1/71 and 11/24/71, unless there was a special regional schedule.
The PDX to SEA leg is interesting because it's the last leg of a long itinerary for 305. Was that part of a plan to get a 727? or was it just random..i.e. it happened to be the next flight when Cooper walked up to the ticket counter.
Also: was there any comparison done on the full Northwest schedule out of PDX, to understand how often 727's were used? I'm guessing the other predominant plane used was 707.
We've guessed that the 727 was by choice. I'm wondering if most of the flights out of PDX, to SEA at least, were 727, or whether this angle was ever investigated.
Nowadays, most of the flights from PDX to SEA are United and Alaska Air, and are small jets. Back then, I don't think smaller planes were used for the short hops, but I don't know.
::::: Snow, you said you would write several collectors. Did anything turn up?
I wrote the website owner with a few questions,
but never got an answer..
George
snowmman 3
Quote
I wrote the website owner with a few questions,
but never got an answer..
George
yeah, I only emailed the website guy. No answer either. Guess I have to look for other ways.
I did notice one thing on his site. He mentioned different categories/kinds of timetables. The main one for collectors is the general "system" timetable that has everything. But he pointed out that smaller regional schedules are sometimes also printed.
We know 305 was on the 8/1/71 system timetable. So you would think there wouldn't be "extra" information that existed only on a regional timetable.
I would think the "system" timetable, should always be a superset of any smaller things printed. But it's something to keep in the back of our minds.
Another interesting thing in the 8/1/71 timetable is that it has some phone numbers and locations for getting tickets..i.e. not thru a travel agent and not at the airport?
Made me wonder why Cooper didn't call ahead for getting or reserving the ticket.
I know you think not, but maybe he did just walk up to the counter and take the next flight. Why not call ahead, or get the ticket ahead of time?
nigel99 534
QuoteYou want to deny that the FBI checked that hotel and spoke with the clerk and owner then go ahead.
They took the hotel registration with them - putting it in a plastic bag because of prints. The hotel nor the clerk ever heard from them again. There were 2 agents.
Maybe they weren't from the FBI but were from the CIA and were helping in the coverup
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
Orange1 0
QuoteYou want to deny that the FBI checked that hotel and spoke with the clerk and owner then go ahead.
They took the hotel registration with them - putting it in a plastic bag because of prints. The hotel nor the clerk ever heard from them again. There were 2 agents.
Jo, do you actually have any proof that this whole event happened? Or do you only have the desk clerk who told you this?
Ckret, is it normal that the the FBI would take evidence and never contact the people again - either to confirm they were keeping it as evidence or (as we have been told here before) to return it if it happens to have no evidentiary value?
And again Jo....as for your lambasting Ckret because the FBI (even before he was on this case) didn't follow up x y or z contact that you showered them with ...well.............. clearly the FBI didn't think they were worth following up. You could have got a PI to go after them, you know.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 247
QuoteQuote
I wrote the website owner with a few questions,
but never got an answer..
George
yeah, I only emailed the website guy. No answer either. Guess I have to look for other ways.
Lets's keep bugging him or find others. Iam sure
somewhere in this is a hobby historian who would know many details ...
I did notice one thing on his site. He mentioned different categories/kinds of timetables. The main one for collectors is the general "system" timetable that has everything. But he pointed out that smaller regional schedules are sometimes also printed.
Yes. Regional skeds is a possibility if the flights
dont go outside a region, but most do or did? I also
was surprised to learn 305 serviced such a wide wide
area that day, across regions. I tend to think NWA
made the most of its resources, including its people, and cast as wide a net as it could to keep financially
viable - that was one common labour complaint. With you would expect some central scheduling office? BTW ticketing agents werent as common in '71 ...eg. you couldnt get airline tickets through AAA!
We know 305 was on the 8/1/71 system timetable. So you would think there wouldn't be "extra" information that existed only on a regional timetable.
That would be my thought also except if a central office was coordinating everything, or had to approve everything.
I would think the "system" timetable, should always be a superset of any smaller things printed. But it's something to keep in the back of our minds.
Another interesting thing in the 8/1/71 timetable is that it has some phone numbers and locations for getting tickets..i.e. not thru a travel agent and not at the airport?
Made me wonder why Cooper didn't call ahead for getting or reserving the ticket.
I cant see that! (laughing) I cant see a hijacker calling ahead. If nothing else it leaves a trace.
Plus calling ahead is a female trait!
I know you think not, but maybe he did just walk up to the counter and take the next flight. Why not call ahead, or get the ticket ahead of time?
The problem I have with that is its too random.
It leaves room for things going wrong. He has a bomb! Quick on and Quick off, is how I see Cooper.
Get the job done and be gone, asap. But I know my
interpretation could be wrong, also.
snowmman 3
Quote
The problem I have with that is its too random.
It leaves room for things going wrong. He has a bomb! Quick on and Quick off, is how I see Cooper.
Get the job done and be gone, asap. But I know my
interpretation could be wrong, also.
yeah, we do have a tendency to look at a few things, say Cooper wasn't a diligent planner, and then try to extend that to the stuff that seems like planning, saying "coincidence". Hard to decide.
It's interesting that 305 was probably the last flight to leave PDX for SEA, that would arrive before 5.
(I'm assuming the schedule was not much different 11/24/71 then shown on the 8/1/71 timetable)
If we say Cooper planned things, then he had a delicate balance to resolve.
He probably had to start the hijack before the banks closed? So before 5. Otherwise he would give the FBI a reason to delay things? (saying "banks are closed")
Five was just when it was starting to get dark, roughly.
If he wanted a twilight/night jump, close to SEA, and not spend a lot of time on the ground or air, then the jump had to be sometime just after 5, at the earliest.
If the jump/hijack was planned to be later, he'd either have arrived at SEA too late for the banks, or be in the air (or on the ground) too long after getting money from the banks. Planned to be earlier, and it wouldn't be dark yet.
And, assuming he wanted a 727, he had to be on a 727. We don't know the relative frequency of 727's yet, on legs that met the criteria.
And he did mention 5 as a time deadline in his demands. So he might have thought about 5 before the hijack started. If he had just come up with the idea during the hijack, he might have said a relative delay? (like "within 2 hours") ???
(edit) And then throw in the oddity that flight 305 didn't meet the above requirements, on 8/1/71, but apparently did on 11/24/71. No Northwest flight did, on 8/1/71? There was a mid-afternoon "dead zone" in the 8/1/71 timetable.
QuoteMade me wonder why Cooper didn't call ahead for getting or reserving the ticket.
In 1971 - most people did NOT call ahead for a ticket. You could usually get a ticket right up to boarding time. There were probably some fights to certain location where it was necessary.
I left Haiti in 1971 on a commercial fight - without buying in advance. Had gone there on a chartered flight with a group and wanted to get out of there fast...bugs in the water, water cut off with shampoo in hair, the bed was crawling, the food was terrible (found out it was horse or dog).
I remember the chartered flight was greeted by armed guards and we where forced to stay on the plane for a very long time before they allowed us off. A very poor country.
My first time in a plane was to NY around that time and the Haitie trip was the second. I flew into Sandford, FL...don't remember if I changed or not - think I did.
The chartered flight left out of Sanford and that is where my car was.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteJo, do you actually have any proof that this whole event happened? Or do you only have the desk clerk who told you this?
As soon as the Clerk contacted me I called the FBI - it was Agent Mueller. I asked at that time about the Hotel registration card.
His only and immediate response was "It would have been checked out and then destroyed". He did not say returned, but someone else later told me that it would have been returned to the hotel.
I remember being furious (still am) that the FBI would "destroy" evidence. If as the other person told me it would have been returned why didn't they make a copy for the files?
I am not angry at CKRET for past mistakes the FBI has made - just his reponse to what I sent him the other day...and his statement about all the witnesses being dead.
DuH! What did he expect - I know 3 of them were alive the first time I mentioned this very thing to the FBI, but I didn't know how to go about finding them. My boss let me use the computer at the office at night - I did not have one at home until Jan 2000.
DuH! All of the other individuals- that I told the FBI about and their lack of interest - the brother and the sister????? The ex-brother-in-law. All in 1996.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteJo, do you actually have any proof that this whole event happened? Or do you only have the desk clerk who told you this?
As soon as the Clerk contacted me I called the FBI - it was Agent Mueller. I asked at that time about the Hotel registration card.
His only and immediate response was "It would have been checked out and then destroyed". He did not say returned, but someone else later told me that it would have been returned to the hotel.
Jo, I'm still not seeing confirmation. "It would have been..." implies that IF it happened that would have been the procedure - not confirmation. Did the FBI actually confirm to your for a fact that they took the registration book, or card, or whatever, and then destroyed it, or do you still only have this desk clerk's word for it?
I've just seen a bit of a Discovery program on secrets of UFOs in Soviet-era Russia. It's amazing what some people claim is true, even claiming so from their own experience.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
QuoteI've just seen a bit of a Discovery program on secrets of UFOs in Soviet-era Russia. It's amazing what some people claim is true, even claiming so from their own experience.
I saw that show too and had a similar reaction. From my experience in law, I can tell you that even honest people make HUGE GIGANTIC FUNDAMENTAL errors in recalling facts. Time erodes memory accuracy and simultaneously attenuates doubt, so people often get distorted memories long after events have occurred but are increasingly sure that they are 100% accurate.
I agree on your take on what the agent told Jo. I dont see any acknowledgment or confirmation that the FBI actually did take the register. Ckret says the files do not show anything about it. I do think Ckret is highly motivated to solve the case and if the register info were available, he'd pursue it.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteI've just seen a bit of a Discovery program on secrets of UFOs in Soviet-era Russia. It's amazing what some people claim is true, even claiming so from their own experience.
I saw that show too and had a similar reaction. From my experience in law, I can tell you that even honest people make HUGE GIGANTIC FUNDAMENTAL errors in recalling facts. Time erodes memory accuracy and simultaneously attenuates doubt, so people often get distorted memories long after events have occurred but are increasingly sure that they are 100% accurate.
I agree on your take on what the agent told Jo. I dont see any acknowledgment or confirmation that the FBI actually did take the register. Ckret says the files do not show anything about it. I do think Ckret is highly motivated to solve the case and if the register info were available, he'd pursue it.
377
377, I think it's simpler than this. Lots of people appear to have yanked Jo's chain over the years. Jo doesn't use much of a truth discrimination filter.
She posted an extract of email from the night clerk before. I include it below.
It seemed obvious to me, the way it was worded that it was just some other jerk or nut job. When witness email betrays excitement! and exclamation point! and I'm with you! ...then you start to wonder.
The reason Jo never publishes everything she has, is because when you see it, it's obviously crackpot stuff.
Jo posted on April 2, 2008 11:14 PM
xcerpt of Email from Night Clerk
Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 1/17/2008
Dear Jo, I enjoy reading the excerpts from skeptics who were not there to give 'credence' to matters they have no first hand knowledge of. There was a registration card signed by " D B Cooper ". The name on that card was "------------" . I may have been only a 27 year old at that time but I still have a very good memory of that incident because of the 'questioning' that I received by the investigators involved that following evening when I came to work. My mind is as good now as it was then because I have kept it that way. I support you in your quest and have seen nothing as yet to doubt or question your evidence or my belief in that evidence as related to the facts as I know them to be true!
(edit) Jo intro'ed the above with the following, claiming she had other stuff she could post. She never posted any more third party stuff. Go for it now Jo! Light 'em if you got 'em!
"I hope you guys will find this interesting as I am tired of trying to tell the FBI anything: If you do then I have other information from 3rd parties that I can post."
georger 247
QuoteQuote
The problem I have with that is its too random.
It leaves room for things going wrong. He has a bomb! Quick on and Quick off, is how I see Cooper.
Get the job done and be gone, asap. But I know my
interpretation could be wrong, also.
yeah, we do have a tendency to look at a few things, say Cooper wasn't a diligent planner, and then try to extend that to the stuff that seems like planning, saying "coincidence". Hard to decide.
It's interesting that 305 was probably the last flight to leave PDX for SEA, that would arrive before 5.
(I'm assuming the schedule was not much different 11/24/71 then shown on the 8/1/71 timetable)
If we say Cooper planned things, then he had a delicate balance to resolve.
He probably had to start the hijack before the banks closed? So before 5. Otherwise he would give the FBI a reason to delay things? (saying "banks are closed")
Five was just when it was starting to get dark, roughly.
If he wanted a twilight/night jump, close to SEA, and not spend a lot of time on the ground or air, then the jump had to be sometime just after 5, at the earliest.
If the jump/hijack was planned to be later, he'd either have arrived at SEA too late for the banks, or be in the air (or on the ground) too long after getting money from the banks. Planned to be earlier, and it wouldn't be dark yet.
And, assuming he wanted a 727, he had to be on a 727. We don't know the relative frequency of 727's yet, on legs that met the criteria.
And he did mention 5 as a time deadline in his demands. So he might have thought about 5 before the hijack started. If he had just come up with the idea during the hijack, he might have said a relative delay? (like "within 2 hours") ???
(edit) And then throw in the oddity that flight 305 didn't meet the above requirements, on 8/1/71, but apparently did on 11/24/71. No Northwest flight did, on 8/1/71? There was a mid-afternoon "dead zone" in the 8/1/71 timetable.
::::: all of the above plus he got very upset when
stalled at SEA (refueling). As Sluggo said, normal
turn around was 26 min max and less (perhaps only
15 min normally). I think Sluggo made a very good point with that. (Cooper knew the normal turn around
time?)
I know all about the "well mannered" line some
attribute to Cooper (Larry based on Tina) but the
transcript is pretty clear to me - Cooper got upset
at the stall not once but several times. He was focused on task.
You can be sad, even depressed, even dipolar,
and still focus on task. ( I re-read the handnotes
this morning and they reinforce a person sticking
to the task at hand).
georger 247
QuoteQuoteQuoteI've just seen a bit of a Discovery program on secrets of UFOs in Soviet-era Russia. It's amazing what some people claim is true, even claiming so from their own experience.
I saw that show too and had a similar reaction. From my experience in law, I can tell you that even honest people make HUGE GIGANTIC FUNDAMENTAL errors in recalling facts. Time erodes memory accuracy and simultaneously attenuates doubt, so people often get distorted memories long after events have occurred but are increasingly sure that they are 100% accurate.
I agree on your take on what the agent told Jo. I dont see any acknowledgment or confirmation that the FBI actually did take the register. Ckret says the files do not show anything about it. I do think Ckret is highly motivated to solve the case and if the register info were available, he'd pursue it.
377
377, I think it's simpler than this. Lots of people appear to have yanked Jo's chain over the years. Jo doesn't use much of a truth discrimination filter.
She posted an extract of email from the night clerk before. I include it below.
It seemed obvious to me, the way it was worded that it was just some other jerk or nut job. When witness email betrays excitement! and exclamation point! and I'm with you! ...then you start to wonder.
The reason Jo never publishes everything she has, is because when you see it, it's obviously crackpot stuff.
Jo posted on April 2, 2008 11:14 PM
xcerpt of Email from Night Clerk
Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 1/17/2008
Dear Jo, I enjoy reading the excerpts from skeptics who were not there to give 'credence' to matters they have no first hand knowledge of. There was a registration card signed by " D B Cooper ". The name on that card was "------------" . I may have been only a 27 year old at that time but I still have a very good memory of that incident because of the 'questioning' that I received by the investigators involved that following evening when I came to work. My mind is as good now as it was then because I have kept it that way. I support you in your quest and have seen nothing as yet to doubt or question your evidence or my belief in that evidence as related to the facts as I know them to be true!
(edit) Jo intro'ed the above with the following, claiming she had other stuff she could post. She never posted any more third party stuff. Go for it now Jo! Light 'em if you got 'em!
"I hope you guys will find this interesting as I am tired of trying to tell the FBI anything: If you do then I have other information from 3rd parties that I can post."
:::::
In addition there are perfectly ordinary events which
on a personal level seem extraordinary. John Paulos
(statistician) has written a nice book about this called "Innumeracy".
Aunt Martha enteres your thoughts. Later that day
you find out she was in an auto accident. ....
I once wrote a book (which I wont name) in which
I related peculiar events which had some special
physical dimension involved. (Ball lightening, a plasma, is one such phenominon). All events were
true, as best I could know them to be true.
I related one event where a child vanished in a bolt
of lightening, I mean completely vanished without
trace, but her ghostly image was caught in a pane
of glass, window she was standing in front of at the
time. The girl had a horrible personal history prior
to 'her being taken off the cruel world, with her image left as a reminder, and a curse to her abusers'. The event clearly involved a plasma and
some of the wierd quantum effects plasmas can
produce 'on the external world'. (You see I just charged the whole story by use of the words 'external
world')...
Well to make a long story short, no pubisher wanted
to touch the book. It had physics in it! No science
publisher would touch it. It had 'metaphysics' in it.
Hotels and desk clerks with evidence about Cooper?
Maybe at the Grande Hotel on Mackinack Island
but never at some dive in Florida! I mean, in the first case you can actually follow the trail of horeshit.
In the latter case, you can't. And everyone knows
people get eaten by alligators in Florida. My mother was chased by an alligator and stung by a scorpion in Florida, when she was carrying me.
Chapter 2 tomorrow night:
Georger
copywrite@1437.
12 yrs ago several people of interest where still alive - most of them Duane's age. The FBI contacted the ex-wife and the man who bought the car. The others were never contacted - and not even the man who threatened me - the man who knew Duane as John and Duane told me was dangerous.
I do not believe the FBI even contacted the brother or the sister.
You call that a timely and through investigation? The FBI waits until the sister and the exwife and the stepdaughter all die. The FBI did it their way and look where it got them.
I give up - look where our government has taken us - to the brink of economic disaster. The way the government runs this country - is deploring. They let the lenders go about their terrible lending practices even though real estate agents like myself made complaints regarding what was happening as early as 2000.
The government turned their head when people like myself kept complaining as early as 1999 and on into 2007 about the tactics of the lenders - and what was going on. I went inactive around 2003.
At one point I advised my sellers not to give an extension. The buyers did not understand what they were getting into. I told the mortgage rep. they would never make it and it was an injustice to the buyer and that I did not like her tactics. The deal went thru and they lost the home when the house payment went up.
I was one of the good guys - trying to do what was right and not there for the almighty dollar. If my buyers did not qualify - I was honest with them and tried to council them - like a friend or a parent. What the industry and our government has let happened makes me sick to my stomach.
I feel the same way about the FBI right now.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites