DB Cooper

[377 22]

Thanks for the kind words Snowmman, but I am not as stable as I appear.

I am brain phase locked to Loran C. If they stop broadcasting continuously I will come unhinged. Ckret knows that. Everyone knows that the FBI, FCC, CIA, NSA and USCG collaborate on VLF mind control sigs daily. Whats the frequency Kenneth? Well, in my case it's between 90 and 110 KHz.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Too funny 377.

Reminded me.
Jo has occasionally implied the conspiracy has deleted some emails she tried to make, or PMs, when they contained keywords of a certain type.

And I was musing how the behavior of things like Search Engines actually feeds conspiracy thinking. Or simple technology failures. SE's are designed to promote random weak links to the same level as strong links. i.e. it's crappy technology. Yet it's made available to everyone with Caveat Emptor, even though people have no idea what it does. Giving guns to babies at some level.
And talking about searches in '98 vs searches today...it's just two different beasts.

In any case, I think I may have found evidence of the conspiracy here at DZ.com. or it might just be broken software. Or a user error.

Someone can help me with verification.

If I search for
LaPoint
(body and text)
with poster "snowmman"

one of the posts I get is this one:

Quote

Subject: LaPoint photo. plus 1970 Barkley
LaPoint was the last jumper that I hadn't posted a photo of. (attached)
That completes photos of
McCoy
McNally
LaPoint
Heady
Hahneman

But then if I search for
Hahneman
I would have expected to get the same post above in the list, but I don't get it..So it's like the "Hahneman" search isn't getting the full results?

I mention this because it's a hassle if I can't trust this thread to be a good database..i.e. search integrity is broken.

It may have to do with the text string being surrounded by newlines in the message or something?

I would like to be corrected on this. But the conspiracy may prevent that.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

All true, but how will you choose between whether the exit point selection was foolish/ignorant or experienced/well planned?

The old timers at my DZ in the late 60s were talking about night jumps and the dangers of hitting mountains if your spot was off. They said if you can't see lights directly below your exit point that give you some idea of altitude, don't jump. They thought car headlights were good markers because you had an intuitive way of relating to their separation distance to altitude and there wasn't much variation in headlight separation from car to car.

377

Unhinged as you may be that is an interesting observation... in light of the previous discussion about whether Cooper wanted to see the lights of Portland when he jumped. May swing us back again towards looking for an experienced jumper?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo has occasionally implied the conspiracy has deleted some emails she tried to make, or PMs, when they contained keywords of a certain type.

Usually they were intense and long posts - the system or my computer would loose the site or not let me make the post. This does NOT say it is was intentional as you have indicated. Often I loose a post because I hit the wrong darn button if I am in a hurry and that is frustrating.

NOW, Snowmman - I am moving into my files to the last part of 2000 during all the media frenzy. Things I explored because of what the ex told me or that Duane had said,

Many individuals contacted me but one was very persistent. He was like you Snowmman - except I baited him and he took the bait. He took a very remote piece of information and built a story around it. Fortunately this was handled in emails and not on a forum. Parts of his story even you would believe because...he talked about a mind control program - even Cook mentions this as something Gossett was involved in.

I have only started reading some of the first emails - and I should have held on to my first gut instinct...that this was just an individual whose life Duane passed through. I didn't have to get very far before I saw the pattern. I have 7 yrs of these to read. I fed him and I baited him and his story evolved.

He always claimed to have supporting evidence - to support his claim, but never produced it.
I often even thought you were this person...and that he had multiple personalities. Now don't get mad - I said "thought" at one time.

Until late 2000 I had little contact with indivuals who had a knowledge of the crime and I had limited availability to information and outside influences.

I explored things just like you guys explore things about the flight pattern and the jump. What I did - was to explored the things Duane and his ex had told me. Doing this publically took away from my credibility - I forgot I was on a witness stand (figuratively speaking).

As a witness I was not supposed to explore the reasons, make allegations, find cause, investigate the incident or discuss relative and unrelated information regarding things I had witnessed and been told. Everything I said was put under a microscope and analyzed...

My searching for the truth and exploring any possibilites only caused me to be discredited - that doesn't seem fair. How many of you could have done this for almost 13 yrs with the last 8 yrs being very public and very intense. If this had been your spouse and you had the principles I was raised with - some of you would not have survived...

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Unhinged as you may be that is an interesting observation... in light of the previous discussion about whether Cooper wanted to see the lights of Portland when he jumped. May swing us back again towards looking for an experienced jumper?

Doesn't take a jumper - just common sense.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Relax Jo, this is just an obscure forum. It's like Vegas, what happens here stays here. You could be dishonored, discredited or worshipped here, but so what? It is a microcosm, a grain of sand on a huge beach.

I am glad to have you back. I don't share your conviction that Duane was Cooper, but how interesting is a forum where everybody agrees?

Welcome back.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Ckret, you stated that the members of the informal Boeing "jump club" were all investigated. I presume this was the membership as of 1971.

The Boeing 727 was designed starting in 1959. The first delivery was in 1964. (727-100. first delivery 727-200 in 1967)

From what I can tell, the first time Boeing employees got together for an informal jumping club was in 1962.

If there was any suspicion Cooper might have been involved in some way with the 727 design or rollout, then an obvious investigation would be anyone involved in this informal jumping club from 1962 to 1964 or 1965.

Actually, one could imagine that it was a waste of time investigating 1971 members.

I'm assuming the 1962 to 1965 period was thoroughly investigated also? You mentioned that the case has been investigated thoroughly, so I'm assuming the answer is yes. If the answer is no, that's good too, it just confirms there really wasn't much of an investigation.

[happythoughts 0]

I think that Cooper fell into two categories.

First, he was a Seattle resident. He knew the area and could get out of the woods in 4 days, just in time for work on Monday.

Second, likes money.

clicky

Quote

1970 Census: Population of Seattle dwindles to 530,000

So, based on the US census, investigate people who lived in Seattle (530,000) and would like to have $200,000 (530,000).

Of course, this probably won't happen because of The Cover-up.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I think that Cooper fell into two categories.

First, he was a Seattle resident. He knew the area and could get out of the woods in 4 days, just in time for work on Monday.

Second, likes money.

clicky

Quote

1970 Census: Population of Seattle dwindles to 530,000

So, based on the US census, investigate people who lived in Seattle (530,000) and would like to have $200,000 (530,000).

Of course, this probably won't happen because of The Cover-up.

Jo's Coverup? I thought that only covers Duane. Is it all-inclusive?

[skyjack71 0]

March 13, 2002

On this day I would contact the ex-wife,but I called during the daytime hours. Normally she and I talked only late in the evening when she wanted to talk.

I called her early in the day and told her that I needed to find the truth and that this thing was destroying me. It had been 7yrs since Duane had entered the hospital for the last time.

In 1966 before Duane was incarcerated at Jefferson they left her kids with the ex (I assume she meant their father). They went to San Francisco - this was the trip they both talked about how she rode the trolleys and didn't want to stop. During this time in San Franciso he told her he had something he needed to do and he would be gone all day - he returned around 2 or 3 the next morning. She spent the day at the pool and had a few drinks at the bar. She thought he went to Pasadena.

I don't know how long they stayed there, but it must have been for a few wks at least...due to other things she said.

He had some business to take care of up the West Coast and SEATTLE, but she was not feeling well and he took her to AZ where her sister was living. He was gone 2 or 3 wks.

When he returned to AZ they headed to MN, but due to a problem they ended up in Chicago (a few wks) and then later to MN. She mentions going to N.C and to Washington DC to an Elks Convention somewhere not too far from the White House. (She had never ever told me this story before). She also mentioned going to N.C. before going to Washington DC. (I have to assume this was before going to Chicago).

The rest of this conversation revolves around early 1972, but I will save that for the next post.

I have only shared this phone conversation with one person beside personal friends. I would have to go back to my logs to see if I called the FBI and informed them of this conversation I expect I was so pissed at the FBI I only shared it with the person I sent the email to since he was the only one willing to help me collect information.

SNOWMMAN & SLUGGO: Get ready to do your thing. DO your digging and NO you are not being set-up or baited. You are being asked to use your abilities to help me.

Was there a Elks Convention in 1966? Where was it? Why would Duane be going to such a convention - he never stayed out of trouble long enough to be an Elk? It takes money to run across the country like that and he was using the name John C. Collins.

What the heck is an Elk Club anyway? I also caught a personal tidbit in this conversation that would indicate this trip was actually in 1968 and not 1966 - SO try both.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

The national Elks conventions are called Grand Lodge conventions. There are state ones also. They vote on things like the Grand Exalted Ruler at the national ones.

The history of the national ones is here:
http://www.elks2510.org/glconv.htm

1962-63 Chicago, IL
1963-64 San Francisco, CA
1964-65 New York, NY
1965-66 Miami Beach, FL
1966-67 Dallas, TX
1967-68 Chicago, IL
1968-69 New York, NY
1969-70 Dallas, TX
1970-71 San Francisco, CA
1971-72 New Orleans, LA
1972-73 Atlantic City, NJ

[skyjack71 0]

The only thing in his belongings was an old Rifle Association card for John C. Collins - I assumed it was fake. She was Duane's age so wonder if it was some other kind of convention - FRANKLY, I can't imagine his attending anything in Washington, D.C.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Orange1,

Speaking of my (current) pet project... You posted something about 4 months ago that has helped me tremendously (it concerns your answer to the question about 10,000 feet as an ideal jump altitude and whether that would be (typically expressed as) AGL or MSL).Your response helped me with (or started me thinking about), the dangers of night jumps over terrain that one was unfamiliar with. With MOCA’s in the area of 3,000 – 4,500 ft. the AGL jump altitude and appropriate free-fall delay had to be … risky… critical… foolish… stupid… cagey… but (most of all) essential to success or failure. This speaks to his skydiving expertise and or topographic knowledge of a very large area. In those two areas he was either super knowledgeable/confident or totally oblivious/passive (in regard to survival).

I’ll have more on this when I finish the project. Watch my web site for the results.

Sluggo

[snowmman 3]

The lady may have misremembered.
American Legion vs BPOE? (Elks)

The American Legion had their 48th annual convention in Washington D.C in 1966. They expected to draw 50,000 so it was a big deal. Someone might travel cross country for it.

It was at the end of August. They had a big parade.

Duane was a vet? so maybe that aligns. Who knows.

President Johnson gave a speech at the 1966 convention, on Aug 30, on patriotism.

"Make no mistake about the character of this war. Our adversaries have done us at least one great service: They have described this war for what it is--in unmistakable terms. It is meant to be the opening salvo in a series of bombardments, or, as they are called in Peking, 'wars of liberation.'

"And if it succeeds in South Viet-Nam, then, as Marshal Lin Piao says, 'The people in other parts of the world will see . . . that what the Vietnamese people can do, they can do, too.'"

Source: The Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Volume 4, (Boston: Beacon Press, 1971), pp. 658-659.
full speech?:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=27816

(edit)
Bainbridge: "Now we are all sons of bitches"

(edit)
Just noticed that the American Legion approved Vietnam vets for admission, at the 1966 convention.

[377 22]

I thought an Elk Club was a weapon used by Sara Palin.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I thought an Elk Club was a weapon used by Sara Palin.

377

That is a good one. This is the first election I felt there were no real options - I thought about doing a write-in, but I didn't.

Economics and politics need to be required classes and not electives.
Considering that most individuals after deductions do NOT make over 50K (depending on their location) just where does our president elect think the money comes from to run this USA?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

I thought an Elk Club was a weapon used by Sara Palin.

377

That is a good one. This is the first election I felt there were no real options - I thought about doing a write-in, but I didn't.

Economics and politics need to be required classes and not electives.
Considering that most individuals after deductions do NOT make over 50K (depending on their location) just where does our president elect think the money comes from to run this USA?

Elk club

I agree economics should be required. Maybe the president-elect thinks if he can do something to reverse the Bush policies that turned the US's fiscal balance from a nice surplus to a large deficit (the war a biggie here obviously but also the various tax breaks), there would again be plenty of money to run the USA. This seems to be pretty common sense to me (and most economists judging by what I have read, and believe me, I get a lot of good economic research).

By the way, in most countries with a progressive tax system (that is where you pay a higher % of your income as tax, the more you earn), the bulk of tax revenue actually comes from a relatively small % of taxpayers at the top of the tree. I don't know exactly what the US tax rates are, but the following example should illustrate the point:
Say you are taxed at 10% of income up to $50K, 15% at $51K-$999K, and 20% of income after $1m. You have 100 people earning $50K paying 10% tax each, the govt gets $500K tax. You have 1 person earning $5m, taxed at 20%, the govt gets $1m tax from him - in other words twice as much from this one individual as the next 100 put together. If you really want me to dig I am quite sure I can get hold of the tax incidence data for the US to get the exact proportions. But in simple terms, this is why taxing the rich works (just don't tax them so much that they move elsewhere )

Should we get back to DB Cooper now?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I thought an Elk Club was a weapon used by Sara Palin.

377

That is a good one. This is the first election I felt there were no real options - I thought about doing a write-in, but I didn't.

Economics and politics need to be required classes and not electives.
Considering that most individuals after deductions do NOT make over 50K (depending on their location) just where does our president elect think the money comes from to run this USA?

Elk club

I agree economics should be required. Maybe the president-elect thinks if he can do something to reverse the Bush policies that turned the US's fiscal balance from a nice surplus to a large deficit (the war a biggie here obviously but also the various tax breaks), there would again be plenty of money to run the USA. This seems to be pretty common sense to me (and most economists judging by what I have read, and believe me, I get a lot of good economic research).

By the way, in most countries with a progressive tax system (that is where you pay a higher % of your income as tax, the more you earn), the bulk of tax revenue actually comes from a relatively small % of taxpayers at the top of the tree. I don't know exactly what the US tax rates are, but the following example should illustrate the point:
Say you are taxed at 10% of income up to $50K, 15% at $51K-$999K, and 20% of income after $1m. You have 100 people earning $50K paying 10% tax each, the govt gets $500K tax. You have 1 person earning $5m, taxed at 20%, the govt gets $1m tax from him - in other words twice as much from this one individual as the next 100 put together. If you really want me to dig I am quite sure I can get hold of the tax incidence data for the US to get the exact proportions. But in simple terms, this is why taxing the rich works (just don't tax them so much that they move elsewhere )

Should we get back to DB Cooper now?

Economics? This has nothing to do with economics,
any more than rocks think about nuclear physics.

A simple IQ test and Stanford Benet would help
just to make sure we are selecting people in the
same species.

Think about it: Cooper tapped the Hedge Fund
and we have been investing to make up the loss ever since. 'Man is a superficially rational animal'

That said, nothing in or about this case can violate
the basic Conservation laws. Not even Sluggo or
Jo! That defines Cooper right there. Work within
those limits .... ?

Georger

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Unhinged as you may be that is an interesting observation... in light of the previous discussion about whether Cooper wanted to see the lights of Portland when he jumped. May swing us back again towards looking for an experienced jumper?

Doesn't take a jumper - just common sense.

OK, point taken.
Common sense also implies Cooper surely would have had a plan that didn't involve leaving the bulk of his takings behind in a bucket for years?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Gives new meaning to the term "Bucket List".

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

That said, nothing in or about this case can violate
the basic Conservation laws. Not even Sluggo or
Jo! That defines Cooper right there. Work within
those limits .... ?

What the heck are you talking about - Basic Conservation Laws?
Rember my roots are Blonde.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo, welcome back, or are you just making a guest appearance?

Someone wrote in an earlier post that Cooper had “Pills,” that’s not in any of the interviews that I have read. Did I miss something that you super sluthes found or did i not read the post correctly?

[skyjack71 0]

Pills! This is exactly the kind of misinformation that has been probagated by the Myth Makers.

Such as the composite used by Cook which has been modified. A few yrs. no one will remember what the unmodified composite looked like.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Sluggo, welcome back, or are you just making a guest appearance?

Someone wrote in an earlier post that Cooper had “Pills,” that’s not in any of the interviews that I have read. Did I miss something that you super sluthes found or did i not read the post correctly?

1) There is no such thing as misinformation or myths in the Cooper case. It is all misinformation. All we're doing is sorting thru stuff and deciding if today we think something is better or worse misinformation.

2) The pills thing was initially from way back in the Tosaw book. You discounted at the time saying it was literary license. I accepted that and moved on. It's kind of weird that you discounted it before checking and now you checked, but whatever.

3) Jo takes pills for we don't know what reason and sometimes sounds loopy. Some of us take beer for probably pretty close to the same reason. Not sure how well disguised our loopiness is, in comparison to Jo, though.

4) Yeah you missed something. You didn't answer my question with your name in the subject.

There are no facts in this case.

Hey, I've been looking at the brown/black bill issue more from video snaps and things. I was very confused about the black bills, because the 1980 green table photos don't show any black bills. I was thinking they must be bottom-of-bundle.

Another photo showed some slightly brown tops. unknown date. The bills had been separated into singles. Not in the paper folders ..plastic bag? or some kind of pile.


But the latest video snap (from 2008) shows that the brown/black bills (at least two) are top faces (I think). I wonder if they browned while in FBI possession?
I had posited that if the black bills were one-sided black, and they were all face or all bottom, that statistically that would be odd for 3 bundles flipped on the beach.

like 3 coin tosses, and the bundles landing the same way...assuming the effect that caused the brown/black was unidirectional in some way...since other bills were white...maybe sun, sand or ?? exposure...
Also: there were more black bills in 1986 when the insurance/ingram/lawyer/fbi split them up..there were 3 more black bills there. So if they browned after discovery, it happened in the 1980-1986 period. (edit) and who got the rest of the black bills? Brian? Didn't see any black ones in the auction. Does he still have some? or ???

Or: I was wondering about the idea of more bills found during the dig. The 12 bundle green table shot was taken immediately after Ingrams reported it, if I got my dates right. The money dig then happened for a couple days after it. So, it's possible fragments found during the money dig were not on the green table shots.

Oh I found one fact.
The guy who sold me tires today. His name was Cooper. File it.

[377 22]

Quote

There is no such thing as misinformation or myths in the Cooper case. It is all misinformation

Is that really true Snowmman? I think we have some solid facts about the parachute gear.

I emailed Galen Cook to ask him when his book was coming out. You can find an email address by Googling his name. Who knows, he might answer, but I doubt it.

A big welcome back to Sluggo, and to Jo too even though she wasn't gone for more than a second.

Where is Safecrackin PLF?

What is up with the science dream team money analysis?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.