DB Cooper

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Quote

Snowmman you sure have a lot of question so it is only fair that you answer mine. What is your real name? What do you do for a living.You complain about people keeping secrets and yet your the bigest offender of all. I would feel easier about answer some of your other questions if you answer mine.

Jerry - You said you had to get used to this forum. One of the (many) things is the cast of characters here.

Snowmman, Georger, Jo and Sluggo are the "Whuffo Gang" (nonjumpers)

377, Orange1, me and a bunch of others are skydivers. We have a different outlook on the case (and life in general).

Quade is one of the moderators. Be nice or he will warn you. If you don't listen, you get one of his "vacations"

The different experiences, abilities, and outlooks create a very diverse group that rarely agrees completely. But it's what it is.
What people choose to reveal or explain is up to them. I always figure you get what you give and work from there.
If you read back a ways, you'll get a much better feel for things.

I'm glad to see a new perspective here. Especially one that has on the ground experience in the area.

And Snowmman - Ralph H had a 35 series Bonanza (V-tail). There was a pic of it in the Parachutist article. No idea when he got it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

This is not a prospectus for the CooperPonzi fund.

Notice to all shareholders.
We are sorry to inform you that were are shutting down operations and must return all funds. You will be receiving notice shortly from the banks in Africa in that regards.

One of our founders is leaving to spend more time with his family.
details today at
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/02/digital-cash-ow.html

This also cancels the plan for the air drop of the gold in the fund's reserves.

On the bright side, the nuclear side of our business has never looked brighter and we look forward to expansion in that area:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-emirates-weapons27-2009feb27,0,6012159.story

[JerryThomas 0]

I promise I will be nice and not ruffle any more feathers Thanks for the advice.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman Ralph is aware of this forum I don't know if he will ever post on it.Not sure if he would answer any questions either.However he does have a airplane and still flys. He has jumped and does follow the progress on this case. So what is your real name.

Jerry, I know you know that my name is directly related to the Cooper event. I know you know that I know that revealing my name will reveal that I know you know.

When did Himmelsbach jump? Details? was this a tandem?
Or from his military experience? What year?

[377 22]

Ralph has jumped??? Very cool!

Carr is next. He can't let the old retired agents out James Bond him can he?

My offer to give Larry some tunnel time still stands. It will get him ready for AFF and then the Perris DC 9 charter jump over the Washougal next Thanksgiving night.

Jerry, you seem to be quite certain that Cooper perished in the jump. Why?

I have never been in the area, know very little about wilderness survival but I have done a jet jump (DC 9) and it wasn't such a big dangerous deal. Of course it was a nice summer day over the cornfields of Rantoul Illinois when I jumped. I know Cooper faced a much more hostile environment. Do you think he went in without an open canopy or died trying to hike (or swim?) out.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

It was not a military jump. and I'm not sure of the year But alot of these questions about Ralph is personal in nature and as his friend I think most of these questions should be answered by him. You see his friendship means a lot to me as well as his privacy so in all fairness questions pertaining to his personell life I will not answer. I may have answered to many already.

[snowmman 3]

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It was not a military jump. and I'm not sure of the year But alot of these questions about Ralph is personal in nature and as his friend I think most of these questions should be answered by him. You see his friendship means a lot to me as well as his privacy so in all fairness questions pertaining to his personell life I will not answer. I may have answered to many already.

Hi Jerry.
If you're looking for feedback, it feels like you've been in this "secretive" view of the Cooper world too long.

You've made a couple of posts, but you've not said anything.
I'm not faulting that. It's cool to chat with someone who's been thinking about this Cooper thing. You sound like a great guy. (unlike georger).

But you've provided no info. For example, can we revisit this RR track by the Fazio question? I've posted Google map links before so you can zoom in and verify for us.

Have you used Google maps? If not I could provide a url centered on what I think the house is, and you could verify. And maybe tell us where the RR tracks you're talking about are.

We've got very loose info about the exact place of the money find. Some might think we know exactly. But like everything we're making some assumptions.

Ckret, although a fine FBI agent, never gave us latitude/longitude and said "the money was found here"

Why didn't he do that simple thing? dunno.

(edit) oh, and ps. If you're not aware of it, anything posted here can be read by 3-4 billion people, within a minute or two of your post. And will probably be readable for 5-6 years minimally going forward.

Given that, why would anyone care who I am? What about the other 3-4 billion that have the same info now?

It's interesting how tied up the world is in the idea of information control. I think a lot of aviation security was based on this broken idea.

Should I post the flight path for the piper cherokee hijack to Mexico? I can do it on FAA forms. If I give that to the pilot, will the FBI think I've got flying experience?

[snowmman 3]

Jerry:

You mention Himmelsbach privacy. What about your own? Shouldn't you care about that?

Some here don't.

I think what's cool is that people here respect each other's apparent level of privacy. It's kind of like mutual assured destruction.

If we just wanted to piss details of everyone here for fun, it's easy to do. But why bother?

It's kind of a tell on you, that you care.

I'm just giving you feedback. Obviously you can ignore it.

But if you want to test the system: go for it. (for instance, can I tell how many times you've moved in the last 11 years)

[georger 247]

Quote

"then perhaps it was something Cooper did that the
test failed to duplicate in the same way."


georger,
Do you think the flaps were at 30 degrees or 15 degrees when Cooper jumped.

Explain why.
"Don't know" is a reasonable answer.

What were the flaps at for the test.
I'm just wondering.

I've not seen the test report. So when they say they duplicated, I don't know what means. It means they'd have to guess at some point in time in the flight?

What about winds aloft? what were they on the test.

I'm not saying any of this matters.

I just don't know what "duplicate" meant to those doing the test.

I love that you read my posts. Who's the idiot. the writer, or the person reading the writer's words? Right now, I am inside your brain. Isn't that funny?

I take everything you say very seriously, for the
mostpart. You are one of the smarest, if not thee smartest in terms of questioning an teasing out details. Details are vital. I think I am speaking
for just about everyone here.

This all matters, to me at least, and to others.

I think the flaps were at 30* when he bailed but
I will have to go back and check. Likewise these
other details. Its important to know for an
intelligent discussion. Sluggo spent a lot of time
on this, you also.

You brought up fuel consumption a few posts back.
I thought we decided they trimmed the flaps
(out of 30 dgrees) after Cooper bailed, then Sluggo
calculated threy landed at Reno with fuel to spare ..

Let me go back and check ...

[JerryThomas 0]

It is my opinion the canopy never opened.The conditions in which he jumped was very hostile.I believe he had no jump experience and that he became disoriented as soon as he exited the aircraft. The envirorment in which he would have landed is exstremely harsh terain. Most of the time travel in this area is only possible down the center of a stream.Does anyone remember the guy I think his name was kim that got stranded on a logging road in oregon with his family and tried to walk out by way of a creek and died.Well the area they found his body in was mild compared to the terain cooper would have had to negotiate.Even if he had landed he didn't have any shoes.It highly unlikely that he would have landed safely in that thick of a forrest.Hyperthermia would have been his main enemy and on the ground at night in that dense of a forest you can't even see your hand in front of your face" Believe me I know".If he had the ability to make a fire he probably would have used the parachute, dry tendor would have been hard to find .In a survival situation human nature takes over and you just want to live so if he survived the jump he probly would have tried to start a fire by using part of the parachute and some one would have spoted this fire.He probably would have made no atempt to conceal the fire.These are just a few of the reasons I have for believing the man parished that nite. If any of you could spend 5 minutes out in this area you will with out a doubt realize this guys chances for survival was none.

[georger 247]

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Jerry,
Did Himmelsbach buy a Beech C35 in 1973 (fork tail)?

I'm curious.

As I've said, I'm wondering about H. as a pilot.
He was a fighter pilot right. So he should be pretty skilled.

Gets me all confused about how he resolves this radar issue in his mind.

Hey! You can tell Himmelsbach that a strange guy is asking questions about everything he did with respect to the Cooper case. Maybe you could get him to post to this forum!

Now dont blow a fuse but V23 may not have had
full radar coverage from McChord! The FP map may
not have been assembled from radar data - only.
I have been told (not from Jerry) that this is H's
opinion, and he should know. (Came as startling
to me if true.) Dont me to interupt ...

[1969912 0]

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In reference to the owners house, the building closest to the gate and RR tracks with the barn next to it was where they lived.Most of the locals called the owner by a nick name (Frenchman) the gate had a small can on it that people would put money in, to gain access to the bar.I have a friend by the name of Brian Allen that new the owner very well and camped on the bar alot. He used to help the owner clean up the trash that people use to leave there.

I remember Frenchman's Bar well, and the money can. Now I know how it got the name. Thanks!

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I think the flaps were at 30* when he bailed but
I will have to go back and check.

I know my thought on this is "we can't know"

But it's worth double checking. Go back and check and you'll see what I mean.

Review when Rat said he moved the flaps back to 15.

Review the ground speed implied by the 1 minute legs on the flight path.

Think about the probable winds at 10,000 ft, the indicated air speed and predicted and radar-measured ground speeds.

Sluggo has probably worked all this out, as it ties it to info in the transcript about fuel burn.

At the very least, it highlights the idea that saying the test drop "duplicated" the exact conditions of cooper's jump, is kind of an unproven theory.

We don't know when Cooper jumped. The plane configuration changed around the probable time. And we don't have the exact details of the test drop.

Tosaw did publish details of where it was done and the pilot. It was not done on V-23.

So questions about whether aloft winds were the same, are interesting. (head winds, tail winds etc)

Might not matter, but since this whole pressure bump thing is new knowledge, like splitting the atom, we shouldn't assume we know what affects what, right? Otherwise why do a test?

(edit) I had thought that Rat moved the flaps back to 15 after he "felt" that Cooper had jumped. I always wondered where this point was. It would seem to be extra info about how Rat was processing events in the cabin..i.e. doing physical things based on how he felt about Cooper's presence and stair behaviors.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

[
Now dont blow a fuse but V23 may not have had
full radar coverage from McChord! The FP map may
not have been assembled from radar data - only.
I have been told (not from Jerry) that this is H's
opinion, and he should know. (Came as startling
to me if true.) Dont me to interupt ...

well we know that the radar wouldn't have been good enough from McChord. It would be stretching it, and only slightly possible because the transponder was on for 305, right?

And the cluttered terrain worked against range too, right, 377? (more so than the rain?)

I always assumed that they got a feed from another station in the SAGE network.

I'm also wondering why the FAA radar I mentioned in Auburn wasn't used (long range). It would be nice to know if it was there in 1971. It was the early stuff, deployed around 1970, so it might have been?

One thing to think about the flight path: it does show slowing of the plane around Ariel, right "close to" where the flaps apparently went to 30 degrees.

However after that, surprisingly, the one-minute legs seem (to me) to show a "too fast" ground speed relative to the air speed we get from the transcripts. (edit) when combined with a guess of 40-50 knot headwinds..i.e. 220 deg.. sluggo can fill in the blanks.

Sluggo can work out whether the flight path post-Ariel aligns with the words in the transcript.

I think it does, so I was willing to believe the flight path was accurate.

But who knows.

I do know there's no reason to believe anything Himmelsbach says. I've not seen any information to say he was a good investigative agent, other than "just believe".

[377 22]

Well Jerry, you know the area and the conditions Cooper would have faced that night so I am giving a lot of credence to your conclusions. You are saying it is really a moot point whether or not he opened his canopy as he wouldn't have survived the night. If correct, then his remains, his gear and whatever remains of his loot are waiting to be located. I hope you find something in your searches.

I think it is likely that he opened given that all he had to do was pull the ripcord handle as he exited. Hypothermia, however, will kill you just as dead as a 120 mph terminal velocity ground impact will, it just takes a bit longer.

One thing looks pretty certain: Cooper was not dressed for the occasion. That has always puzzled me and makes me wonder if he had any idea how tough his mission would be. It doesnt take a genius to know a night jump into a rural area in the Pacific NW in November will not be a cake walk, so why wear slip on shoes and casual clothes? Others have speculated he had more appropriate garb underneath or in his case, but I see no evidence that he did.

Do you have vultures up there? In rural CA vultures will find a putrifying body pretty quickly and circle it making the location visible from a distance.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

There are all kinds of scavengers in the area.however decompasition is very slow its like a referidgerator 8 months out of the year in that area and rarely gets above the 70's deep in the woods in the summer and at nite it normaly stays in the 40's in the summer months.

[low_pull1 2]

It is my opinion the canopy never opened.The conditions in which he jumped was very hostile.I believe he had no jump experience and that he became disoriented as soon as he exited the aircraft. The envirorment in which he would have landed is exstremely harsh terain. Most of the time travel in this area is only possible down the center of a stream.Does anyone remember the guy I think his name was kim that got stranded on a logging road in oregon with his family and tried to walk out by way of a creek and died.Well the area they found his body in was mild compared to the terain cooper would have had to negotiate.Even if he had landed he didn't have any shoes.It highly unlikely that he would have landed safely in that thick of a forrest.Hyperthermia would have been his main enemy and on the ground at night in that dense of a forest you can't even see your hand in front of your face" Believe me I know".If he had the ability to make a fire he probably would have used the parachute, dry tendor would have been hard to find .In a survival situation human nature takes over and you just want to live so if he survived the jump he probly would have tried to start a fire by using part of the parachute and some one would have spoted this fire.He probably would have made no atempt to conceal the fire.These are just a few of the reasons I have for believing the man parished that nite. If any of you could spend 5 minutes out in this area you will with out a doubt realize this guys chances for survival was none.
......................

im still not satisfied with the last sentence above. If he stayed warm, he lives. I have slept in 20-30F with only a parachute (wrapped in it). I have never slept in a "wet" parachute and will not accept death unless i know if one can survive in a wet canopy in the temps/conditions cooper was in.

Why do you think the parachute didnt function? Just curious.....was it rigged/packed to fail?

[snowmman 3]

for $1000/day plus airfare and other expenses, I will dress as Cooper did, and you can tie my arms and legs up to simulate injuries, and drop me off anywhere you want on 11/24/2009, in WA or OR.
(you can blindfold me)

You can hose me down first if you want.

I'll be back posting within 3 days.
If I don't return, you get your money back.
Money has to be deposited in escrow beforehand.

You can give me a wet chute or not, whatever you like.
If you want to suspend me from a tree, that's okay too.

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo's site was referenced by a newspaper blogger in South Africa today.

The blogger is a deputy-editor of the Sunday Times Travel & Food.

The Sunday Times is a popular South African Sunday newspaper. It has an audited circulation of 504,000 and a weekly readership of 3.2 million, making it the largest weekly newspaper in South Africa.

The blog appears to be connected to the site the paper owns:

http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/wanderer/2009/02/26/boeings-sexiest-airliner-in-hijack-escape-drama/

An overview of the hijack with this reference:

"Thanks to “Sluggo” for this last piece of information from his extensive and detailed “Norjak” website."

Orange1 continues to deny direct involvement in the case, although the coincidences continue to pile up.

[georger 247]

Quote

Geoger this forum is going to take me awhile to get use too I seem to answer questions out of context. given time I learn and do beter.

You're doing fine. If you need a break just take it.
We have your back. You should see the screwups
I make! Its a family of sorts here, and the Moderator (a real grizzly) has all our backs -

Lets talk this weekend...

G.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Geoger this forum is going to take me awhile to get use too I seem to answer questions out of context. given time I learn and do beter.

Use the Quote thing instead of Reply. The idea is to allow multiple overlapping exchanges, by reposting the message you're responding to.

The Quote thing automatically encloses the message in the reply and /reply thingees.
(edit) then you can type your response at the bottom.

If you click on Get Markup Help while you're editing a post, you can see all sorts of wonderful things you can bracket text with. like b and /b (I'm not showing the required brackets) to get bold text like this or if you want to say sluggo is a jerk

You'll notice some posters have favorite styles. Jo's posts used to be insane with markup stuff. but she's toned down a bit.

Break your posts into paragraphs for easier reading. To avoid chopping the sentences up, only hit Enter on your keyboard when you want a new paragraph.

Hit Enter twice if you want a blank line between paragraphs.

(edit) You can go back and use Edit on a post to edit posts that you made. Since this can be confusing to a future reader, or someone who already read the post, a convention we sort of have here is to highlight meaningful post edits.

I use (edit)
Others do other things.

Rather than using the standard markups to delineate replys, Georger likes typing "reply>" or something like that at the start of his posts.

It's good to snip out long posts, rather than repost the entire thing you're responding to.

Georger always reposts the entire message he responds to, even if he's just adding two words.

No one complains, but it would be better to snip the original post. Just include enough to provide context for your response.

Georger usually snips what he thinks should be snipped otherwise posts full context on ourpose.
Me Georger. You Snow. Me know what Georger do -
at least most of the time.

There was this time however when Sally and I
were on a hill .... thats another story. Bear walked
up at 3:00am. All we had on was our shorts and
the bear was wearing a hat ........... if not for the
rattlesnakes I know we would have been eaten...

Jesus I am becoming like Jo!

[JerryThomas 0]

Low pull 1: I don't believe the chute functioned I don't even think cooper Knew how to make it function.If he was able to get the chute to open his landing site would have either been a tree enima or jagged rocks he would have been dazed and not thinking clearly.He would have had no sense of direction.You are right about the chute though it would have kept him warm wet or not If he wasn't hung up in a tree or unconcious. The guy jump with a chute he knew nothing about. There's a lot of If's where this jump is concerned.

[JerryThomas 0]

Like this

Quote

Quote

Quote

Geoger this forum is going to take me awhile to get use too I seem to answer questions out of context. given time I learn and do beter.

Use the Quote thing instead of Reply. The idea is to allow multiple overlapping exchanges, by reposting the message you're responding to.

The Quote thing automatically encloses the message in the reply and /reply thingees.
(edit) then you can type your response at the bottom.

If you click on Get Markup Help while you're editing a post, you can see all sorts of wonderful things you can bracket text with. like b and /b (I'm not showing the required brackets) to get bold text like this or if you want to say sluggo is a jerk

You'll notice some posters have favorite styles. Jo's posts used to be insane with markup stuff. but she's toned down a bit.

Break your posts into paragraphs for easier reading. To avoid chopping the sentences up, only hit Enter on your keyboard when you want a new paragraph.

Hit Enter twice if you want a blank line between paragraphs.

(edit) You can go back and use Edit on a post to edit posts that you made. Since this can be confusing to a future reader, or someone who already read the post, a convention we sort of have here is to highlight meaningful post edits.

I use (edit)
Others do other things.

Rather than using the standard markups to delineate replys, Georger likes typing "reply>" or something like that at the start of his posts.

It's good to snip out long posts, rather than repost the entire thing you're responding to.

Georger always reposts the entire message he responds to, even if he's just adding two words.

No one complains, but it would be better to snip the original post. Just include enough to provide context for your response.

Georger usually snips what he thinks should be snipped otherwise posts full context on ourpose.
Me Georger. You Snow. Me know what Georger do -
at least most of the time.

There was this time however when Sally and I
were on a hill .... thats another story. Bear walked
up at 3:00am. All we had on was our shorts and
the bear was wearing a hat ........... if not for the
rattlesnakes I know we would have been eaten...

Jesus I am becoming like Jo!

[georger 247]

Of course it was a nice summer day over the cornfields of Rantoul Illinois when I jumped. I know Cooper faced a much more hostile environment. Do you think he went in without an open canopy or died trying to hike (or swim?) out.

377

[georger 247]

Quote

It is my opinion the canopy never opened.The conditions in which he jumped was very hostile.I believe he had no jump experience and that he became disoriented as soon as he exited the aircraft. The envirorment in which he would have landed is exstremely harsh terain. Most of the time travel in this area is only possible down the center of a stream.Does anyone remember the guy I think his name was kim that got stranded on a logging road in oregon with his family and tried to walk out by way of a creek and died.Well the area they found his body in was mild compared to the terain cooper would have had to negotiate.Even if he had landed he didn't have any shoes.It highly unlikely that he would have landed safely in that thick of a forrest.Hyperthermia would have been his main enemy and on the ground at night in that dense of a forest you can't even see your hand in front of your face" Believe me I know".If he had the ability to make a fire he probably would have used the parachute, dry tendor would have been hard to find .In a survival situation human nature takes over and you just want to live so if he survived the jump he probly would have tried to start a fire by using part of the parachute and some one would have spoted this fire.He probably would have made no atempt to conceal the fire.These are just a few of the reasons I have for believing the man parished that nite. If any of you could spend 5 minutes out in this area you will with out a doubt realize this guys chances for survival was none.

Fill them in on the animal life in the area - ?

I have Fossett in mind.