DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

I've been mulling over whether the story georger told about the money find (basically a Denise extension) was true or false.

If true, where did he get it?

I suddenly realized there is new evidence in the video just released.
We know georger and TomK have a connection. This has been posted about before.

However, we now know that TomK and Brian Ingram have made contact, since they were physically both in that fishing video, in the same place. I don't know if they were in the room together looking at photos (apparently the Oregonian)

Minimally, they've gone fishing together. People do tell stories to each other while fishing.

It's possible there's a thread between georger, TomK and Brian Ingram, thorough which this story passed.

Just speculating. Anyone with more info, chime in.

[snowmman 3]

377 said:
"I just got kicked out of one DBC secret club Snow, so don't feel alone in your failure to join the in crowd. Popularity is fickle. Some of us just don't have the right stuff. "

The CIA found that distributing Viagra was useful for getting tribal chiefs to align with them in Afghanistan. Really. Old guys, lots of young wives. It really worked (search google news)

Here's the thing about infilitrating secret groups, 377. They are always strapped for funds. FBI always knew that.

With my $200k book advance, I am the big swinging dick. Just have to decide which groups get which funds.

Just have to wait and see who PMs first.

(edit) Hey in that King5 report Sluggo posted, it mentions a new Fall Report. (I guess it replaces the March Report)
Looking forward to it! Any info is good info in the Cooper case, like 377 says.

"The Cooper researchers say they've already de-bunked some myths about the Cooper case, but they won't go public with specifics until their research is complete, likely in the fall."

[snowmman 3]

looked for interesting things to snap in the king5 video.
not much.

One good snap that I think is a new vid of the back of the tie, but may be from footage king5 didn't use before.

I snapped and rotated it so the tie is vertical.

There is, I believe, an evidence tag, and maybe writing on the tie from the FBI. We've seen this before in the other video (although poorly).

I can't make out any of the evidence tags (better elsewhere but didn't snap). I think the yellow writing looks like ?40 AAA. The white evidence tag is on the narrow part of the tie.

I've been trying to find a good pic of the "keeper" on the tie back. It's more visible here. That must be where it says J.C. Penney. (edit) mind glitch. probably not. see other tag.

You can see the rear seam in this snap also.

I don't know how far a tie would float, in the Columbia or otherwise.

(edit) Oh I forgot there's a label on the narrow part of the tie (attached) maybe that's the one that says J.C. Penney. Can't tell.

[snowmman 3]

Got them laughing.
We all know how the news outlets have been the targets of hoax stories before.

They got a good laugh when I told them "Tom Kaye" was not the guy's real name.

And that he was a paintball guy.

Funny! Good one!

[377 22]

Tom K's paintball mechanism expertise actually impresses me. Too many "scientists" put up their hood and call the tow truck when something goes wrong. I bet Tom carries wrenches in his trunk. Common sense is just as important as all the equations and methodology. I bet Tom has his share. I think Jerry does too.

Being a fisherman, I started to wonder whether you could catch fish with plain unscented currency. No lure, just the money. I bet I could get albacore tuna to strike a bundle of bills when they are in a feeding frenzy. It is kind of cheating because you whip them into the frenzy by tossing live bait to them, but when they go nuts they attack nearly anything that hits the water. I'll have to try that sometime.

BTW, sturgeon inhabit the Columbia river. No, I don't think they ate Cooper, but they grow to truly huge sizes. We used to deliver tuna to the canneries in Astoria at the mouth of the Columbia. The canneries are all closed now but back in the day there was an active gillnet fishery in the river. Sturgeon were sometimes snared with the targeted salmon.

What does fishing have to do with Cooper? Nothing. Just that Tom's cash casting got me thinking. That rod and reel casting was GREAT theater BTW. Tossing cash out by handline wouldn't have been nearly as good a video clip. Should have put 20's or even 100's on the top and bottom of the stack though. Those dollar bills lack punch.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

You are definitely correct.
The machines are cool.
Tom's background is very cool and very impressive.

But what's more important, is that it doesn't matter. TV is not DZ.com. It's like this fake "we lie so you'll watch the commercials" world.
(nor are politicians, FBI, real). So which liars do we support, and which do we try to send down in flames? Doesn't matter if we fail, the effort is what matters.

Hey I found a Blackwater low altitude air drop video on youtube, like they were advertising their services. Exactly like the old Air America video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2-gB2jyXao&feature=related
It's like everything old, is new again.

So with machines: who's the dog, who's the ball and who's the machine?

Jerry doesn't need anyone to play with his ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcL6-mjRNk

Reminds me: The only important question.
Which club has all the hot babes?

(edit) Another thought. I think there's not enough emphasis on calling the flight path data "physical evidence". If it has no provenance, let's establish that and throw it out. If it has provenance, then it's physical evidence, just like radar gun in court for a speeding ticket. Get Tom K on the next stage show holding up the flight path and browsing thru FBI files to prove it's provenance. I'll tune in and buy whatever Viagra is on the commercial.
If the flight path has no provenance: we're off to races again.

[georger 247]

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"This is why we do these experiments. If you had asked me what happens to money, I would've thought it floated," said Kaye.

Could have saved himself some time by reading my posts, but that's why I don't visit this board anymore. People have their mind's made up without having any evidence to disagree.

Money does float, but it just doesn't float for very long (it's a matter of minutes) and this floatability makes a huge difference in figuring how far the money could have traveled.

Good luck

"Could have" and "did" are two different things.
Tom read all of your posts. The issue isn't so
much flotation as travel and travel from a variety
of source options. And several different states of
bundled money "traveling".

I feel a bit strange posting for someone that isnt
even here!

Good luck -

[georger 247]

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I have safecrackingPLF's results (or at least the photos), but I'll need his permission to post them. How about it Safe...PLF? Can I show those photos of your big feet?
See, snowmman, there are a lot of secret clubs on this forum. The requirement for membership is: BUILD TRUST. Both in what you say and what you do.

It's sort of like KARMA (not to be confused with KERMA). [That's a Health Physics joke!]

Sluggo_Monster

PS: I'm traveling this weekend, so I may not be easily reached.

why the new avatar? whatam I missing"

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

"I feel a bit strange posting for someone that isnt
even here!"

Yes. I feel stranger reading it. Why are you posting for Tom?
Please don't post for Jo.

Hey, you know I was thinking about Jo. Even though she's a bit loopy, we've all hung with crazy women before. At least Jo is direct, mostly, in what she says. I mean, I knew nothing about the Duane thing before I came here, and although it took time, we basically got her point of view from her. She had some thoughts, and she said them. She does a lot else too, that's a pain, but you got to give her credit for saying her mind.

(i.e. not delaying it till the Fall Report)

[georger 247]

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Got them laughing.
We all know how the news outlets have been the targets of hoax stories before.

They got a good laugh when I told them "Tom Kaye" was not the guy's real name.

And that he was a paintball guy.

Funny! Good one!

as in bring the other Snowmman back?

[georger 247]

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georger said:

"I feel a bit strange posting for someone that isnt
even here!"

Yes. I feel stranger reading it. Why are you posting for Tom?
Please don't post for Jo.

Reply> Please dont post for me, brat.

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[snowmman 3]

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Got them laughing.
We all know how the news outlets have been the targets of hoax stories before.

They got a good laugh when I told them "Tom Kaye" was not the guy's real name.

And that he was a paintball guy.

Funny! Good one!

as in bring the other Snowmman back?

don't understand. Are you asking me for something?
uranium, gold, ponzi scheme, beer, drugs, panties, hookers, ??
Take ur pick. Or I could just shut up.

There's only one reference to me in the post above. Problem. Correct.

[georger 247]

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Got them laughing.
We all know how the news outlets have been the targets of hoax stories before.

They got a good laugh when I told them "Tom Kaye" was not the guy's real name.

And that he was a paintball guy.

Funny! Good one!

as in bring the other Snowmman back?

don't understand. Are you asking me for something?
uranium, gold, ponzi scheme, beer, drugs, panties, hookers, ??
Take ur pick. Or I could just shut up.

There's only one reference to me in the post above. Problem. Correct.

Or, I can just click a switch and filter you out!
Click. Bye.

[skyjack71 0]

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"This is why we do these experiments. If you had asked me what happens to money, I would've thought it floated," said Kaye.

Could have saved himself some time by reading my posts, but that's why I don't visit this board anymore. People have their mind's made up without having any evidence to disagree.

Money does float, but it just doesn't float for very long (it's a matter of minutes) and this floatability makes a huge difference in figuring how far the money could have traveled.

Good luck

ATTENTION TOM KAYE

Safecrack, I will add something to that statement. Money does float and what it is encased in and the turbulence of the water also makes a huge difference.

If the container came down the Washougal it would have been torn to shreds by the time it hit the Columbia - you have to consider the time it would have hit the Washougal - Winter. The spring snow melts cause the Washougal to run hard and rapid and that is not accounting for the rain.

If the container came down the Washougal the condition of the money deposited on Tina's bar would have been - no packets and no rubber bands.

The area Kaye did his experiment was from the shore line at Frenchman's Reef. Wonder what would happen if they had simulated 3 packets (at least) in a paper bag thrown into the Columbia from behind the Red Lion Inn (this is located at the foot of the bridge) - understand something new is being built there.
Being at the foot of the bridge it has the high walls - retaining walls which enables a good arm to get that money some distance out into the water to start with. Being in a paper sack increases the Float time. Currents also attribute to Float time.

Also note that the money would not have arrived in packets clumped together if it had not been put into the water in a container of some kind. A good paper bag - 1971 (not the flimsy kind they have now -2009) may have done just that.

I know I am Just Crazy Jo, but I wasn't born yesterday and I was raised on a farm and spent lots of time on the Rolling Fork River in Ky (that is just a small creek compared to the Washougal). In the Spring it Rumbles and can cause lots of damage if there we got lots of rain.

Rolling Fork is a water trough compared to the Washougal. There are only 3 ways the money got into the Columbia.
1. Cooper landed in the Columbia
2. Someone threw the money into the Columbia...at a later date.
3. All or part of the money was separated from Cooper when he jumped.

Of Course ALL of you know I choose number 2.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

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Reminds me: The only important question.
Which club has all the hot babes?

I haven't been to South Africa where Orange undoubtedly drives em crazy, but here in the US it is probably the Perris DZ.

Our DBC club has Tina, who sure looked pretty attractive in the NWA stewardess outfit don't you think? Can you picture her in a nun's habit?

Don't get kinky on this Snow, I know what you are thinking with the crown of thorns and all that.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Rolling Fork is a water trough compared to the Washougal. There are only 3 ways the money got into the Columbia.
1. Cooper landed in the Columbia
2. Someone threw the money into the Columbia...at a later date.
3. All or part of the money was separated from Cooper when he jumped.

Of Course ALL of you know I choose number 2.

Indeed we do Jo. I do like your approach of stating alternative explanations and clarifying that your position is one choice but others exist. We are making progress.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Amazon 7]

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Keep it civil or it's all going to be trashed.

If you'd like to discuss this topic without my moderation, Yahoo.com makes "groups" all day long. Feel free to use them.

Just in the interest of fairness... I think we need...

1 aircraft.. same type

1 rig for each poster to this thread...same type as used that night...

1 pass over SW washington on the same flight path.

And CHUCK everyone out the back stairs

[TomKaye 1]

Hi All,

Well as you have seen we have been busy here. There is a group of (I think) 7 of us working the area here. Went to Tena Bar and the Little and Big Waushugal rivers.

Tena is virtually destroyed with 3 feet of sand gone everywhere. The original trees are fallen over and its eroded down to the base sediments. We were able to locate the original money find but in a few more years this would be impossible.

The Waushugal rivers were cold and fast running. Mostly rocky bottoms but Jerry Thomas says there are sandy spots further upstream.

We released bundles of real cash with reward notes into both Waushugals. Going to dump some more into the Columbia tomorrow.

We measured stream and river currents and then used the fishing pole to determine at what speed the river needed to be to move a bundle of cash. There is a particular speed, at least 3 ft/sec. Your right I should have put hundreds on top and bottom!

The people I am with are darn smart about the case. The more I am hearing the worse its getting because its calling everything we think we know into question. Like the flight path, no history on where it came from or what was used to make it. The time stamps on the pilot transmissions might not be right. Even the basic story that it took 7 years for the money to get to Tena Bar has an unknown origin.

Had dinner with Ralf H tonight. Great guy and good talker. He said he never got to interview guys like Rataczak until he flew over for his retirement. He reiterated that Rat thought they were further east but this was at his retirement.

The Waushugal area is now like a suburb. LOTS of houses at least in the lower parts of the river. Snow would have an easy time walking out.

People here either don't want to talk about it or have a DB Cooper theory. I have already been contacted by people who's family was directly connected to the hijacking and has evidence they dont want to show to the FBI. So the publicity (which sucked by the way) is helping.

Brian is here but he hardly remembers anything. He is a big fan and having a great time. His pick for the original location and ours was very close to the same.

The Fazio's have had cattle mutilations since the Cooper Cash and are not happy about it.

The photos I was holding were from the Oregonian archives. We were hoping they had unpublished photos of the Tena Bar dig but it turns out they didn't keep them. The one photo was the only closeup we had ever seen of the money stacked up and there were some interesting things about it.

So I hope I have answered some of your questions.

Tom

[snowmman 3]

Thanks for the update.

It IS always better when someone speaks for himself.

(edit)
Tom said:"Had dinner with Ralf H tonight. Great guy and good talker. He said he never got to interview guys like Rataczak until he flew over for his retirement. He reiterated that Rat thought they were further east but this was at his retirement. "

Interesting that the retirement story involves Rat now, not Scott.
H. flew to Rat's retirement? Is that where the "east" story came from? Rat's retirement?

Rataczak retired June 28, 1999 per
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-62476554.html

Didn't the "east" story start before that? H. mentions the Washougal in the Norjak book. Just speculating about wind at that time.


The article that we think mistakenly quoted H. as saying it was Scott at H's retirement in 1980 says this: (in fact you can see this story has it as west):

"The costly searching near Ariel was wasted, Himmelsbach said. Remarkably, he said this revelation occurred to him in 1980 when, on the day of his retirement, Capt. Scott paid him a courtesy visit. They got to talking, and Scott let drop that the jet was traveling west of where the FBI believed it had been. No one with the agency has ever offered an explanation as to how such a goof could have gone undetected for nine years."

If you talk to Himmelsbach, quiz him on this, i.e. did he change his story over the years or what?

Can't understand.

(above is per
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/7.html
i.e. the Trutv article, written by David Krajicek sometime after 2003, not sure when.
(he has bibliography here:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/12.html
not sure of which article was the source of the quote above)

(edit) If you want to be a peckerhead, ask H. if he bought the Beech in 1973. Tell him a crazy whuffo is curious.

[snowmman 3]

Tom said:

"Tena is virtually destroyed with 3 feet of sand gone everywhere."

We've been force-fed a theory by Ckret, based on FBI paperwork, that the only way clay layers could have arrived on Tina Bar was from the dredging.

That always sounded like bullshit.

Get a feel for whether you think all the layering in the pictures from the 1980 could have occured due to natural redeposit (even before 1971) or movement due to heavy machinery.

The difficulty is we know heavy machinery was used for moving sand all around that beach area, in 1974 after the dredging (and maybe yearly after that)

Ask about the dredging Fazio does every year now to get their sand. Ask where it comes to shore and how they move it to the sand piles visible in the sat images.

Do they use heavy machinery on the beach? did they in the '70s?

And to satisfy Jo, find out if the squarish house with the composition shingles is the Fazio house.

And the Denny's is actually not bad for breakfast
...must realign satellites to image Tom at the Columbia tomorrow..

[snowmman 3]

Tom: I'm not sure if you've grabbed all the photos that were posted from 1980, to this thread.

For instance there is the AP photo that shows the tractor and backhoe that was used to dig the deep trenches. There was more than one trench, confirmed in news video from 1980.

I posted snaps from the 1980 news video showing the multiple trenches. They were in odd locations.

Can you find out from H. if more money scraps were found as news articles state? They quoted both H. and other FBI agents.

The overhead shot of people searching in 1980 you may have seen before. It's before the backhoe was brought in to dig the trenches.

I don't believe H. supervised the search/digging. Did he? What did H. do anyhow over all the years?

I didn't reattach the vid snaps from 1980. They show the surface sand conditions though and profile of the beach, and are useful for that reason. Hopefully you already grabbed those or I can dig them up again.

(edit) the first one has a little more resolution at the AP site (you can get it there today). I shrunk it for size a bit (limit here)

(edit) note in the first photo there is a film or video camera in the foreground..news camera?. You can see the mike on top of the camera. We've not seen this footage.

(edit) note in the 2nd photo they had a random dog on the beach (in the water). I think just with the students. Zero maintenence of the evidence area!

[Orange1 0]

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Just in the interest of fairness... I think we need...

1 aircraft.. same type

1 rig for each poster to this thread...same type as used that night...

1 pass over SW washington on the same flight path.

And CHUCK everyone out the back stairs

I'm in let me know when!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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I have already been contacted by people who's family was directly connected to the hijacking and has evidence they dont want to show to the FBI. So the publicity (which sucked by the way) is helping.

Is this as promising as it sounds?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

there has been a lot of speculation about why most of the missing money has never been found.
i just saw a C&I program on a Brink's robbery in Rochester, NY in 1993 - $7.4m stolen, of which more than $5m has never been found. curiously i can't find much on the net and in fact the best summary of the case i can find is actually contained in a law website, under the section entitled "background":
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=951142

no-one involved has supposedly died, and $5m is an awful lot to leave buried somewhere. it appears some but not all of the money was traceable through serial numbers (see link for details).

i wonder how many robberies there have been where the money is just never traced... it has been mentioned here before that you need bank tellers etc to actually check serial numbers in order to catch the money as it goes through the system? maybe the Cooper case isn't as unusual as we think it is in terms of this angle?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[TomKaye 1]

All,

Don't quote me that it was Rat that H was talking about. I could be wrong.

Fazio's don't have a great memory for all this stuff. There were no "oh wow!" revelations in this trip.

Be nice to Jerry Thomas, he knows virtually everything H knows and is very familiar with the area. At the moment I think he is the best new source of info.

Got to head out, Snow realign the birds now!

Tom