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snowmman 3
This post is an insult.
Apply where needed.
(edit) Georger. The narcissism post was in response to you accusing me of narcissism. You said, after I posted about the tie pollen possibly being a contaminant:
"It may be a contaminant. People arent nearly as
stupid as you need them to be to fulfill your
narcissism."
I was agreeing with your accusation, by saying I actually liked Alec Baldwin in that scene, which is pretty narcissitic. After I wrote the post, I realized it also reminded me of how people like to quote their backgrounds/credentials here. So I mentioned that.
I didn't think I was being too oblique. Apologies if so.
Apply where needed.
(edit) Georger. The narcissism post was in response to you accusing me of narcissism. You said, after I posted about the tie pollen possibly being a contaminant:
"It may be a contaminant. People arent nearly as
stupid as you need them to be to fulfill your
narcissism."
I was agreeing with your accusation, by saying I actually liked Alec Baldwin in that scene, which is pretty narcissitic. After I wrote the post, I realized it also reminded me of how people like to quote their backgrounds/credentials here. So I mentioned that.
I didn't think I was being too oblique. Apologies if so.
snowmman 3
QuoteYes the new dredge is great it takes in all material and does not deposit any of it in the side of the river It does hold all the deposits in its holding tanks and exspels it at a desegnated area controlled by the Army Corps Of Engineers. Just off the colubia River.Questions pertainig to this operation can be found on line very easily But you already know that.
Which new dredge are you talking about Jerry?
What you are describing is a hopper dredge. That wasn't used in 1971 at Tena Bar, right?
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The "Oregon" is a 30" pipeline dredge, and I'm suggesting it was used in 1971. It seems to have been built maybe early '60s? Not sure.
georger 247
QuoteGeoger Cute did you hit the castle or the rock.
snowmman 3
jerry said "Cooper was a common criminal"
The current FBI profile doesn't mention anything like this?
The current FBI profile doesn't mention anything like this?
Snow you are correct I was refering to the one they use now.Remember When I posted a few weeks ago refering to the fazio's comment about where the dredging material was placed on. Tena Bar then I mentioned that things changed and dredging material wasn't allowed to be placed on the beache's anymore. It disturbs the little fishe's habitat.
Quote
Ah here's a reference in a 1965 book that says the Port's "new 30-inch pipeline dredge OREGON"
SO: That means in 1965 the dredge OREGON was considered new. I'm betting Tosaw is right that it was 30". I'll go further and suggest it was the OREGON.
They have four other hopper dredges, but we know it was a pipeline dredge at Tena Bar. Also we have to remember it's 1974, not now.
Somewhere in the research (mosty paper documents and on discs) so I will use my memory. There was a mention of dredges brought down to the Columbia that had been used in Lake Merwin and it was theorized at that time the money remains may have got caught up in the machines in Lake Merwin and then flushed out after it was set into the Columbia.
I believe this was part of Tosaw's searching and theories. One of you guys out there can go right to the source and quote it. Just part of the research - I guess Tosaw or who-ever dreamed that one up was fantazing also.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
no the dredges would be too big to transport. They wouldn't have been used on Lake Merwin. (edit) actually, Port of Portland does lend out their dredges. They can travel pretty far, but I assume that it's all by water channels. (can search web on this but doesn't really matter)
They were used further N on the Columbia. The pictures we have show them in use farther downstream from Tena Bar.
I threw out that theory of being "stuck" on the dredge somehow a long time ago. But it doesn't make sense.
I think we're stretching looking for complicated things when the simple answers line up.
What's interesting is seeing where people are willing to say "okay that was wrong" and where people are dogmatic "no that has to be correct"
Like it's okay to move the DZ because the jump point was miscalculated (even though experts were involved). Or it's okay to move the flight path even though a lot of technology and experts were involved.....but a question about dredge pumps?
rock solid! don't question it, you idiot. Experts (one) were asked.
I'm not surprised, it's just a reflection of the inconsistency in the investigative process used.
It's also amazing to watch how people think. Jerry glibly talks about how he only deals with facts, and "common sense" and then says that Cooper was a "common criminal" whatever that means. Using the word "common" is just an emotional appeal anyhow. There's no data in it.
I love it. DBC will never be discovered.
Here's to DBC! We need more Coopers.
They were used further N on the Columbia. The pictures we have show them in use farther downstream from Tena Bar.
I threw out that theory of being "stuck" on the dredge somehow a long time ago. But it doesn't make sense.
I think we're stretching looking for complicated things when the simple answers line up.
What's interesting is seeing where people are willing to say "okay that was wrong" and where people are dogmatic "no that has to be correct"
Like it's okay to move the DZ because the jump point was miscalculated (even though experts were involved). Or it's okay to move the flight path even though a lot of technology and experts were involved.....but a question about dredge pumps?
rock solid! don't question it, you idiot. Experts (one) were asked.
I'm not surprised, it's just a reflection of the inconsistency in the investigative process used.
It's also amazing to watch how people think. Jerry glibly talks about how he only deals with facts, and "common sense" and then says that Cooper was a "common criminal" whatever that means. Using the word "common" is just an emotional appeal anyhow. There's no data in it.
I love it. DBC will never be discovered.
Here's to DBC! We need more Coopers.
Quote
Also a trailer park that Jo discribes across the washougal river bridge was not in existant in 1971 0r 1980 bummer for her
I NEVER said it was across from the Washougal bridge. You go north up the Washougal to the point the river turns. Imagine a horse shoe with one point starting in Washougal with the curve of the shoe being North. Just as you get into that curve and to the North West was a trailer park. It may be homes now but in 1979 and 1971 it was trailers or doublewides and maybe even some homes (we did not go up into it).
This was my problem trying to relate to you what I saw - remember that at the time I spoke to you for the first time on December 1, 1997 I had no maps of the area - I was trying to recall memories without maps. I also did not have a computer. My access to arials did not happen until after 2001...and at that time an arial of the area was availabe dating to the early 80's.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
I was thinking people might not be familiar with pump impeller "blades". I've replaced the impeller on a well pump, so there's some hands-on experience :)
In any case, dredge pump impellers don't look too different than the impellers you see on a water pump. They do analyze the optimal shape/number though. There's actually a book devoted just to this:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5n87n7q84476778/
first page attached, showing outline of impeller blades. I've also attached another exploded view of an example dredge pump.
What's unclear is what kind of cutterhead, if any, they might have been using in 1974. That would also potential create issues with whether the money would all be destroyed. But I'm thinking the first-order question is the pump sphere passage limit, and the impeller design.
If the "Oregon" was used, it could be used for an experiment, since it is still in use.
In fact, I think they are using it on the Columbia right now? Not sure.
(edit) for completeness, have to double-check whether there's any possibility a clamshell dredge was used additionally, maybe in spot areas, around Tena Bar in 1974 (they have used them on the Columbia.....it would remove all questions of money destruction)
In any case, dredge pump impellers don't look too different than the impellers you see on a water pump. They do analyze the optimal shape/number though. There's actually a book devoted just to this:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5n87n7q84476778/
first page attached, showing outline of impeller blades. I've also attached another exploded view of an example dredge pump.
What's unclear is what kind of cutterhead, if any, they might have been using in 1974. That would also potential create issues with whether the money would all be destroyed. But I'm thinking the first-order question is the pump sphere passage limit, and the impeller design.
If the "Oregon" was used, it could be used for an experiment, since it is still in use.
In fact, I think they are using it on the Columbia right now? Not sure.
(edit) for completeness, have to double-check whether there's any possibility a clamshell dredge was used additionally, maybe in spot areas, around Tena Bar in 1974 (they have used them on the Columbia.....it would remove all questions of money destruction)
quade 4
You're more than welcome to go somewhere else. Nobody is holding you hostage here.
You might also want to back off on the name calling. Everyone has been warned about this numerous times. It grows old.
You might also want to back off on the name calling. Everyone has been warned about this numerous times. It grows old.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Jo acording to Fazio /Ralph and others the dredge had placed there pipe more than 100 ft above the site from where the money was found Fazio's Believe's the money floated down from the washougal river. There was pieces of money above the site where Brian found the Bundle of money This could have only gotten there by it floating from upstream. If it had been buried on the Columbia river it would not have traveled in the manor it did,The scatered piecies of money found above the bundle clearly indicates that.Now as for the dredge the money could not have been deposited by any dredging operation the propellers on the dredge would have chewed every thing up to include the bundle Brian found. this has been known for years. Fazio even checked this out himself,so did the FBI and the Army Corps of Engineers. The money was not buried on the river. One little known fact is that there are a lot of deep holes in the columbia close to the shore lime any money that was buried would have floated out and sunk into one of those holes. In short the only way the money could have reached tena bar is durring a high flood stage with fast moving current.and had to be done quickly in order for the money to retain its boyancie.This means the money had to be dry and compact.Hope this helps you to understand what science has provided.
quade 4
QuoteQuade why don't you post on this thread more often.
Honestly? It's tedious.
I peek in and scan the thread on a daily basis looking for mischief, some I catch, some I miss, but unless I see something truly egregious, I really don't care about the subject any more. I'm fully convinced that the DB Cooper case is simply too far in the past now and can never be solved with 100% accuracy any more than say the case of Jack the Ripper. Too much theory, not enough evidence.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Hi quade . Jo there is one more thing you might like to know about the columbia river. When a large ship moves downstream it creates a wave that moves logs/sticks and other debris up stream a 100 ft or more at a time.I have measured this more than once and pointed this out to many people to include Tom Kaye.The main question is could it be enough to move a floating object upstream a few miles. the floating object would have to be continually pushed to the shore line and remain boyant. This can be possible.This is how. The river is tidal and rises and falls rapidly so do all the others in this area.This would allow a object to get wet and then dry out. Then the next time the river rises and floats the object and abother large boat goes by and causes the waves to move the object , it would continue its path up stream. This is a well known fact and has been observed by many. Jerry
quade Jack the Ripper, excelent comeback. You maybe right. but eventualy some one will come across a skull or a piece of metal attached to a chute. The way this area is growing I'm sure it won't be long. Still its possible a lot can be learned from this. Whether it be the efects of global warming and how streams and rivers flow or just what happens when you jump out of a airliner into the uknown. Jerry
The areals show from a computer map. Jo You just told us how you have found all your land marks.Acording to the peopl at the park in question it did exist in 1te 80s but not before then.
snowmman 3
"There was pieces of money above the site where Brian found the Bundle of money"
There were numerous reports of this in news articles, but Ckret repeatedly either ignored our questions or said only 3 bundles were found?
The pieces that were found "above" ...what does "above" mean? further from shore? Or North or South of the 3 bundle find?
Note they only dug 2 or 3 trenches. So they would only find money where they dug.
The area where they found money may be misleading. But it'd be good to know exactly?
(edit) Another question for Jerry
you said "acording to Fazio /Ralph and others the dredge had placed there pipe more than 100 ft above the site"
Do you know how far sand was pushed when it was moved around Tena Bar after the dredging? and by what kind of equipment? Was it just pushed, or loaded on trucks or ??? It had to move further to create the big sandpiles we see in the '74+ photos?
(edit) Another question for Jerry:
"In short the only way the money could have reached tena bar is durring a high flood stage with fast moving current.and had to be done quickly in order for the money to retain its boyancie.This means the money had to be dry and compact.Hope this helps you to understand what science has provided."
I'm willing to believe that Jerry. But what science provided this? I've not seen it. Do you have a report or ?? Are you saying you think the bundles travelled on their own, with no bag, and no attachment to anything else or ??? it would be nice if whoever did the science on this wrote a report we could all review.
There were numerous reports of this in news articles, but Ckret repeatedly either ignored our questions or said only 3 bundles were found?
The pieces that were found "above" ...what does "above" mean? further from shore? Or North or South of the 3 bundle find?
Note they only dug 2 or 3 trenches. So they would only find money where they dug.
The area where they found money may be misleading. But it'd be good to know exactly?
(edit) Another question for Jerry
you said "acording to Fazio /Ralph and others the dredge had placed there pipe more than 100 ft above the site"
Do you know how far sand was pushed when it was moved around Tena Bar after the dredging? and by what kind of equipment? Was it just pushed, or loaded on trucks or ??? It had to move further to create the big sandpiles we see in the '74+ photos?
(edit) Another question for Jerry:
"In short the only way the money could have reached tena bar is durring a high flood stage with fast moving current.and had to be done quickly in order for the money to retain its boyancie.This means the money had to be dry and compact.Hope this helps you to understand what science has provided."
I'm willing to believe that Jerry. But what science provided this? I've not seen it. Do you have a report or ?? Are you saying you think the bundles travelled on their own, with no bag, and no attachment to anything else or ??? it would be nice if whoever did the science on this wrote a report we could all review.
Snow eye witness acounts provides the proof You can call the fazio's sand an gravel co. One of the brothers will verify the info I have given you.They operated the backhoes used to escavate the site. Jerry
snowmman 3
QuoteSnow eye witness acounts provides the proof You can call the fazio's sand an gravel co. One of the brothers will verify the info I have given you.They operated the backhoes used to escavate the site. Jerry
Jerry, I'm not attacking anything you're saying. You're too used to all these DBC folks you hang out with that want to argue with you.
I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. I don't need to verify it.
But if you've made it clear, then okay, I'll go back and reread.
Ok Guys here is some Info I don't think you realy understand The pilots of the airliner was not flying by auto pilot they were given directive's to fly manualy. this they did They did not follow the flight path. Instead they flew to the east about 9 or more miles. You don't have to take my word for this a simple phone call to either Ralph or Rat will verify this. I bet that changes a lot of your thinking on this case. Now go back to your computers.
QuoteThe arials show from a computer map. Jo You just told us how you have found all your land marks.Acording to the peopl at the park in question it did exist in 1te 80s but not before then.
Before you have stated the park didn't exist. Now you say it does.
I have found old maps and it was there in 1979 and in 1971. In my vast research it is there. (It may not have been a "formal" park in those yrs and just a place with a few scattered trailer, etc in place).
This place is north of Coffey road on the road that goes along the Washougal.
Yes, now I am able to direct you there and yes it did exist in 1971 - just a few trailers at the time. In 1979 there were more - it sat back off the road.
In 1997 you were speaking to a woman who only had her memories - but today I have the information that BACKS - up my memories. Perhaps you need to study some of the maps dated in 1971 and 1979 - as you have said before - FACTS.
All he said about the "park" (my name for it) was that he used to know someone who lived there. This is where we turned around and went back to the road we took to go West. Just from maps I believe that road to be Coffey Road. There was also another road that turned West near there. Right now I am using only my memory and not maps.
After we turned West onto one of these roads he went for a ways and would later turn North. I do not remember if we made more turns, but it was after this point some distance away that we went off on to a dirt road and drove back into the woods. After reaching a clearing - he stated maybe he should have turn before that point - after sitting there in the car for a few moments he made this comment " There used to be a tower here and a shed right there - at one time I buried something behind it." I do not know if this was his exact words but close.
Then he pointed to an area where the tree line was lower - telling me that yrs ago that was a logging road and you could see the tower light for miles (this is the tower that was no longer there). He said that beyond that logging road was a railroad track.
I found what I think is that area and now there are ranchettes there - long narrow pieces of acreage with a house fronting the road. (Yes, this one detail regarding the ranchettes is from a recent ariel.) The rest is from my memory of 1979 - which by the way has been very reliable.
I respectfully ask that you please go back and check you information again - because these are facts - no lies or fantasies involved. By going back and rechecking them you may still be the key to solving this 37 yr old crime.
If Duane was not Cooper he sure as hell knew who was...you cannot take away the things I physically held in my hands in 1990 and 1994. Stub, ticket and bank bag.
Now I have a way to map out what I tried to tell you in 1987 - respect me enough to go back and see what you could have missed. This in no way discredits you or me - because now the new technology may help you to find something - that will at least explain how Duane knew that area so well.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteOk Guys here is some Info I don't think you realy understand The pilots of the airliner was not flying by auto pilot they were given directive's to fly manualy. this they did They did not follow the flight path. Instead they flew to the east about 9 or more miles. You don't have to take my word for this a simple phone call to either Ralph or Rat will verify this. I bet that changes a lot of your thinking on this case. Now go back to your computers.
It's quite impressive how you can post or even make a phone call, without a computer there Jerry.
But yeah it's good knowing where the plane was now.
How did Rat reckon out where the plane was? (and when)
Did he visual something or ???
(edit) Another thought
When Rat saw Portland or Vancouver lights, did he see them out to his right 9 miles or did the plan turn or what happened?
I'm still not clear on whether they flew close to Portland.
It sounds like you're saying they didn't.
Be nice if we had the exact testimony from Rat about the Vancouver lights from 1971.
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