DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

at 20:15 (or 20:14 depending on your point of view), flight 305 was 3.5 miles east of V23, according to the flight path map. That's 3 nautical miles. (see attached)

So Rataczak is correct. At one point near Portland they were East of V23.

How did Rataczak decide it was 9 miles, rather than 3.5 miles?

And at what time?


The error bounds in the flight path was supposed to be +- 0.5nm. But a recent paper comparing GPS to radar determined location of airplanes suggests that the error could have been larger than that. I forget the number I posted, but I'm thinking +- 0.75nm

3+.75 = 3.75nm => 4.3 miles

But we don't know if Rat was talking statute miles or nautical miles. Or really what Rat said, passed along by Jerry.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo the park did not exist in your way of thinking You never even knew about this park untill recent arial photo's Maps and phone calls is all you have to verify existance of duane gues what I called the guy in stevenson. Another dead end. Maybe you should have the people you want to talk to me call. you have my #. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow your question I can answer. However if I do you'll just question my answer. Do us both a favor and call Rat or Ralph. If you want info and continue to question me just call the source. then all the extra coments can cease. My expertise is on the ground Most of my info That involves the crime comes from Ralph and others. You have a habit of alway's second guesing me. So if I post somthing and you want to question me! just make a phone call and waste some time.All the people that were involved in this case have listed phone #s Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Skynet became operational on April 19, 2011 and began its attack against humanity on April 21.

It was learned that that the Serrano Point Nuclear Power Plant would be one of the machines' key sources of power.

John Connor sent Dan Cooper back in time to destroy the one man that would enable the functioning of Serrano Point. All Dan Cooper had was a codename. "Sluggo_monster".

Dan's plan was to hijack an airplane and not get caught, causing Sluggo_monster to go insane trying to figure it out.

When that failed to work, a worm was unleashed in 2009, known as Conficker.

Conficker was released 4 days before the 37th anniversary of the hijack, on 11/20/08. It's name is a play on the word "Cooper" and "fucker".

It used the MD-6 encryption mechanism, as a tease to the FBI about MD-80 aft airstairs. MD-6 had only been developed by Dr. Ron Rivest of MIT in Oct. 2008, in response to this need.

http://mtc.sri.com/Conficker/addendumC/index.html

Some errors in the worm unleashed a storm of email from Sluggo_monster's computers, but were quickly fixed.

The true intent of the worm was made known on 4/1/2009. The worm searched out all DB Cooper information on computer hard drives world wide, simultaneously, and deleted all of it.

This prevented Terminator units that were sent back from 2011, from finding out what happened to Dan Cooper.

Microsoft offered a $250,000 bounty for information on Conficker. Microsoft was the parent company of Cyberdyne Systems. Skynet was initially funded as a replacement for aging ARTCC radar and computers.

And thus, humanity was saved.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo I'm tired of your comments about your imaginary cooper confrontation I will deal with you civily. I have talked to the news people in pensecola fla. and will be making a formal public statement soon. thought you would like to no this

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Jo I'm tired of your comments about your imaginary cooper confrontation I will deal with you civily. I have talked to the news people in pensecola fla. and will be making a formal public statement soon. thought you would like to no this

This is good Jerry. Why restrict it to FL? what about the rest of the USA? And Orange1 is South Africa. Don't leave out that continent. There was a poster from australia here too (bigway?) and one from the UK! nigel99 I believe?

I always wanted to make formal public statements, but they always get rejected.

I got published in a letters to the editor once, though.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo the park did not exist in your way of thinking You never even knew about this park untill recent arial photo's Maps and phone calls is all you have to verify existance of duane gues what I called the guy in stevenson. Another dead end. Maybe you should have the people you want to talk to me call. you have my #. Jerry

I asked you for help very nicely and all I got was your insistent claim that I didn't know they existed until recently.

I do not understand why you would say that - you know I have been describing this same locations since day one - it was in my letters and phone calls to the FBI. The same goes with all of the other locations I have described. Frankly I know of only one reason you would NOT want anyone to know the locations existed.

As for a guy in Stevenson - I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...I never heard of Stevenson. I never told you to contact a person in Stevenson.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

Ok Guys here is some Info I don't think you realy understand The pilots of the airliner was not flying by auto pilot they were given directive's to fly manualy. this they did They did not follow the flight path. Instead they flew to the east about 9 or more miles. You don't have to take my word for this a simple phone call to either Ralph or Rat will verify this. I bet that changes a lot of your thinking on this case. Now go back to your computers.

Jerry, you might mention the instructions to 305
to avoid (fly around) populated areas because of the bomb, .... I mean Portland.

This my understanding?

No such instructions appear in the recorded transcripts. That does not mean such instructions
did not happen, perhaps from Nyrop on phone
patch... because such instructions would be a
standard protocol for planes carrying a bomb near
populated areas. So, I personally think it very
likely such instructions happened which goes to
the issue I have been pushing a long time:

The transcripts are not the complete or even the
most vital communications which occurred on
11-24-71 (the gap from 8:13-8:20 apx being the
most glaring example).

[georger 247]

Quote

at 20:15 (or 20:14 depending on your point of view), flight 305 was 3.5 miles east of V23, according to the flight path map. That's 3 nautical miles. (see attached)

So Rataczak is correct. At one point near Portland they were East of V23.

How did Rataczak decide it was 9 miles, rather than 3.5 miles?

And at what time?


The error bounds in the flight path was supposed to be +- 0.5nm. But a recent paper comparing GPS to radar determined location of airplanes suggests that the error could have been larger than that. I forget the number I posted, but I'm thinking +- 0.75nm

3+.75 = 3.75nm => 4.3 miles

But we don't know if Rat was talking statute miles or nautical miles. Or really what Rat said, passed along by Jerry.

If east of V23 and Rat is in the right seat what is
his angle of view toward Portland. If east of V23
then he must be looking out his right hand window.
A distance estimate might be based on that, the
angular line to Portland vrs a straight line ahead
which obviously cannot intersect Portland if east
of V23?

I mentioned all of this long ago with cockpit photos -

What mystifies me is Rat's supposed statement:
'could see the surburbs of Portland coming up,
5-10 mins after last contact with Cooper at 8:05,
and had not crossed the Columbia yet'

How does this statement fit with what Jerry is describing or can it fit?

[1969912 0]

If the dredge pumps are typical centrifugal water pumps, I have no doubt that bundles of money could pass through without being shredded. HOWEVER, it seems very unlikely that they could make the journey with rubber bands intact. The size of the pump would provide enough space for a bundle of bills to pass, but there would be high turbulence and high shear forces in the pump and downstream piping that would likely strip the bills from a banded stack. IMHO, anyway.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[BruceSmith 3]

I made my first jump in 1957, off Kevin O'Malley's garage. Boy was it cool. Took my mother's big beach towel and tied it around my neck and held the ends in my hands.

My last jump was the following day. Whew, boy, was my mother mad. (see above).

I love you guys! and this forum. I haven't talked so much about my childhood since a string of psychotherapy sessions back in the late 80s.

[georger 247]

Quote

If the dredge pumps are typical centrifugal water pumps, I have no doubt that bundles of money could pass through without being shredded. HOWEVER, it seems very unlikely that they could make the journey with rubber bands intact. The size of the pump would provide enough space for a bundle of bills to pass, but there would be high turbulence and high shear forces in the pump and downstream piping that would likely strip the bills from a banded stack. IMHO, anyway.

I think you're 99% right in everything above -

It could account for fragments scattered over an
area, even after spreading, all in the same relative
strata ... that is why the mention of fragments
gets my attention.

The turbulence and shear forces would tend to
suck bundles apart, I would think.

I think the dredge is a viable theory but I also think
early deposit in '71-72 covered over by dredge silts
which eroded is a viable theory. I dont think Ckret's
'79 late deposit theory is viable at all because 78-79
were dry years.

There are some aspects of this I cant speak to
because of Tom's work but any deposit theory
must account for the condition of the money
and the surrounding strata and soil content,
as found.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

If the dredge pumps are typical centrifugal water pumps, I have no doubt that bundles of money could pass through without being shredded. HOWEVER, it seems very unlikely that they could make the journey with rubber bands intact. The size of the pump would provide enough space for a bundle of bills to pass, but there would be high turbulence and high shear forces in the pump and downstream piping that would likely strip the bills from a banded stack. IMHO, anyway.

Yes that's sensible, if you're making an excuse to not do the experiment :)

It would be easy to measure the force needed to strip rubber bands from a bundle of dollar bills.

You could spray a bundle with a fire hose. What happens? The bundle and the rubber bands move together. (think of the relative surface area of the two items, for one)

See the problem in your thought experiment, is that the turbulence is acting on both the bands and the dollar bills. So you have to think about differential forces, not just forces.

It's like analyzing the effect of wind on the bundle attached to Cooper. It's about differential chaotic forces on Cooper and the bundle. Not just looking at one.


But I'm reminded of the time, I had the nerve to call out an old guy, way smarter than anyone, on why he had people doing some stuff that I considered a waste of time...he looked shocked, like he couldn't conceive that I wouldn't understand, and his point came down to this:

"You have to do the experiment"

Sure you may think you know what the outcome will be, but you won't know till you do the experiment.

He was also big on publishing all results or thoughts.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

If the rubber bands were compressing the center of the bundle, why didn't the bundle curl when the money got wet? Does a wet bundle not curl with the tension from the predicted rubber band?

Or, did the rubber band lose it's tension?

The bundles seemed to be pretty flat when found. That seems odd.

I'm guessing the current story is that the 3 bundles were all stuck together, not just close to each other, in scattered orientations?

If 3 bundles floated "quickly" when dry, independent of the bag, it's hard to understand how they travelled together. Maybe there was a rubber band around 3 bundles, and the testimony is just wrong or something.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If the dredge pumps are typical centrifugal water pumps, I have no doubt that bundles of money could pass through without being shredded. HOWEVER, it seems very unlikely that they could make the journey with rubber bands intact. The size of the pump would provide enough space for a bundle of bills to pass, but there would be high turbulence and high shear forces in the pump and downstream piping that would likely strip the bills from a banded stack. IMHO, anyway.

Yes that's sensible, if you're making an excuse to not do the experiment :)

It would be easy to measure the force needed to strip rubber bands from a bundle of dollar bills.

You could spray a bundle with a fire hose. What happens? The bundle and the rubber bands move together. (think of the relative surface area of the two items, for one)

See the problem in your thought experiment, is that the turbulence is acting on both the bands and the dollar bills. So you have to think about differential forces, not just forces.

reply: the above was not mine but 1969's.
You also to include some number for the age of the bands - ?

• Quote

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[snowmman 3]

Quote

What mystifies me is Rat's supposed statement:
'could see the surburbs of Portland coming up,
5-10 mins after last contact with Cooper at 8:05,
and had not crossed the Columbia yet'

How does this statement fit with what Jerry is describing or can it fit?

If you look at the flight path section (attached again), I believe that Rat is remembering that they curled east, maybe up to 4.5 miles off of V23, (if you included some radar error) before turning back towards Portland. (edit) it would have been pretty bad if they flew around the wrong side of PDX, wouldn't it?

The flight path shows it.

That's why I wanted to know how Rat came up with his distance measurement. Some visual estimate? Something off an instrument? Random hunch?
(edit) also: Why would you have a number for how far off you were from V23? V23 is not a physical thing. It's referenced with instruments.

I don't know why Himmelsbach would know. He wasn't there.

Hey here's the reference again on a recent study comparing radar measurements vs GPS. I just noticed their numbers were average error. Not max error. I didn't purchase the paper to see the full study. So I think it's fair to say the radar error could have been greater than +- 0.5nm back then. Maybe 1nm at most?

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F10454%2F33180%2F01563441.pdf&authDecision=-203

Comparison of host radar positions to Global Positioning Satellite positions
Paglione, M.M.; Ryan, H.F.

Digital Avionics Systems Conference, 2005. DASC 2005
265 flight's of radar tracking data were compared to their GPS positions. Three distance metrics were used. The time coincident straight line distance, referred to as the horizontal track error, and its two orthogonal components: cross track error (side to side error) and along track error (longitudinal error) were calculated. A total of 54,170 measurements were taken. This resulted in an average horizontal error of 0.69 nautical miles, an average (unsigned) cross track error of 0.12 nautical miles, and an average (unsigned) along track error of 0.67 nautical miles.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Jerry, you might mention the instructions to 305
to avoid (fly around) populated areas because of the bomb, .... I mean Portland.

Ok. There were secret instructions on where to fly, that somehow Jerry uncovered, probably from Himmelsbach, who got it from who knows where.

In addition, the flight path was transcribed incorrectly on the map, to hide this additional flying.

At what point was the map wrong and what point right?

The map we have, has the same location for the 8:11/8:12 predicted jump point, in the 1972 DZ map we have. So the two bits of flight path info we have, around 8:11/8:12, agree.


They committed a huge number of troops based on this.

Himmelsbach himself, in the Norjak book, muses about the plane flying near Lake Merwin.

So somehow, the instructions about where to fly and the actual flight path, are recreated from someone's memory, post 1972?


When people think the plane flew somewhere else, do they also say "plus the predicted jump point is wrong" OR do they say Cooper still jumped at 8:11, and Flight 305 was not near Lake Merwin at 8:11.

My mind just reels at all the possibilties.

It's never clear, because people just throw out one liners like
"Rat said the plane was farther east"

Which is no data, that is usable. (minimally there are time issues...when and for how long...Portland issues...etc..on and on)

[snowmman 3]

Rat may have been referencing a certain number of miles east of I5, since that is a visual reference, unlike V23.

If I measure that, I get 5.85 miles. Add some radar error, and yeah
6-7 miles east of I-5 is correct.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Jerry, you might mention the instructions to 305
to avoid (fly around) populated areas because of the bomb, .... I mean Portland.

Ok. There were secret instructions on where to fly, that somehow Jerry uncovered, probably from Himmelsbach, who got it from who knows where.

In addition, the flight path was transcribed incorrectly on the map, to hide this additional flying.

At what point was the map wrong and what point right?

The map we have, has the same location for the 8:11/8:12 predicted jump point, in the 1972 DZ map we have. So the two bits of flight path info we have, around 8:11/8:12, agree.


They committed a huge number of troops based on this.

Himmelsbach himself, in the Norjak book, muses about the plane flying near Lake Merwin.

So somehow, the instructions about where to fly and the actual flight path, are recreated from someone's memory, post 1972?


When people think the plane flew somewhere else, do they also say "plus the predicted jump point is wrong" OR do they say Cooper still jumped at 8:11, and Flight 305 was not near Lake Merwin at 8:11.

My mind just reels at all the possibilties.

It's never clear, because people just throw out one liners like
"Rat said the plane was farther east"

Which is no data, that is usable. (minimally there are time issues...when and for how long...Portland issues...etc..on and on)

Im replying to both your last two -

Make no mistake: I have the exact same issues
and more! Too many versions, too many sources,
too little hard data (none), and all anecdote. Thats
one helluva a way to draw a flight path map and put
it out to the public however Snowmman, I am 90%
convinced Ckret is as mystified as anyone. He comes
into this late also. His sources may be no better than
ours? He may not have had the time to delve into
all the files, all of the pertinent files may not even
be in Seattle, and we know Minneapolis played a
huge role in all of this (Soderlind group). The FBI
may not even have everything NWA had! I am not
even convinced Ralph ever had the full story however
based on discussions I have had with Jerry I do believe
H knew a lot, was privy to many if not most of the discussions and probably knows the actual history of
how flight maps were generated (to justify the Merwin search), and H himself tried to intercept 305 near
Portland and he took some risk doing this. So H had
some idea of the vector 305 was coming in on.

Now, how all of this fits the the flight map Ckret pushed
(which Sluggo) worked on, I do not know. I am as in
the dark about this as you are and I have the same
questions you do, .... for a very long time.

We could guess all day and get nowhere.

I think we have to toss the yellow FBI map! I mean
ignore it and go back to the original NWA flight and
dropzone probability map. Because that map is really
an expression of probabilities vrs. a literal flight path map.

If I understand the conversations Jerry and I have
had, H left Portland in a helicopter wanting to intercept
305 north east of Portland - to try and eyeball the flight on the very faint chance he might catch some
glimpse of Cooper parachuting. It was a long shot
and H knew this. At one point they (H) realised they
would be under 305 and they became concerned if the plane exploded they could be killed by falling debris, potentially, so they withdrew trying to monitor radio comms and decide what to do. 305 went by and they realised that so H and his company went back to
Portland...

But the intercept H picked (and whatever he thought
he knew to chose an intercept point) puts 305 North East of Portland at least 5-10 miles, and if 305 may
never have been to the west side of PDX at all as the
yellow fp map illustrates; because 305 had actual instructions to avoid any populated area. Those instructions were one reasons V23 was picked in the
first place as an alternative to a coastal route. With
a coastal route over the ocean Cooper would have
vanished and could not be apprehended. (That is
the story I have ... )

The above version is why Jerry looks where he looks
vs. other places...

If this is true then any account Rat could give would
be from his right side forward vector out toward Portland.

There is another small airport east of PDX near
the Columbia whose name constantly escapes me,
but I have been told by several people 305 crossed
the Columbia very close to that airport.

Jerry can confirm or deny or elaborate on everything
I have said here -

[snowmman 3]

if flight 305 was cowboying it (Jerry says something about "manual flying" although I don't understand what that means..you still look at instruments to see where you're going, at night, in a storm)

...but if they were just flying wherever they felt like (watch out Mt. St. Helens!) then how could Himmelsbach "vector" to intercept?

He wouldn't be able to be able to predict where they would fly, right? Because they were unpredictable.

Also, Himmelsbach never saw the plane.

So it doesn't matter where Himmelsbach flew in the helicopter.

[snowmman 3]

Georger said:
"There is another small airport east of PDX near
the Columbia whose name constantly escapes me,
but I have been told by several people 305 crossed
the Columbia very close to that airport."

Yes, it's Pearson Field. But it's not East of PDX.
It was there in 1971.

I show it on the picture attached with 305 flight path.
Yes, 305 flew just about over it.

[snowmman 3]

The only "data" that suggests the flight path is wrong, is from trying to justify the myth of Cooper jumping in the woods amd dying.

That's the only reason the flight path is challenged.

Because people want Cooper to have jumped in the woods.

Although it's unclear what time they want him to jump at.

It's like they're working back from the myth, and forcing "facts" to fit the myth.

Actually, if people would have realized the timing for the jump was predicted wrong, they wouldn't be so adamant at keeping Cooper in the woods. Because he could have died jumping in the Columbia!

[georger 247]

Quote

Georger said:
"There is another small airport east of PDX near
the Columbia whose name constantly escapes me,
but I have been told by several people 305 crossed
the Columbia very close to that airport."

Yes, it's Pearson Field. But it's not East of PDX.
It was there in 1971.

I show it on the picture attached with 305 flight path.
Yes, 305 flew just about over it.

Thats not it - an airport east. I have it in notes and
will find it.

I agree about cowboying it - that wasnt happening
But in order to make the kinds of adjustments they
made to accomodate Cooper they had to be flying
by hand at least during the time frame around 8:13.

We have these different accounts and I dont know
how to reconcile them because we lack data, which
includes people who were there ...

The one thing I am sure of, is Rat and Scott were
very good pilots - tons of experience. They knew
what was going on, and where they were on or off
V23, they were not wandering around in the void
waiting for Cooper, and this kind of guessing game
the transcripts conveys is pure nonesense for public
consumption - until somebody convinces me otherwise.
90% of what happened had a purpose behind it.
There has to be more than we know.

Has it ever occurred to you that the one report and
personal testimony that is missing over the years,
is testimony from NWA?

I am unaware of anything of an official nature than
NWA ever said about this hijacking outside of short bland public press statements which add up to
nothing - including the CBS interviews in Nevada
where nobody says anything and Scott basically says:
'we cant talk about it' ... and Tina looks like she's
seen a ghost.

[JerryThomas 0]

The dredge used on the columbia had propellers.all material passed through them.Georger The info about the flight came from rat told to Ralph on the day of Ralphs retirement. Ralph made mention of this conversation yesterday at the conference.He made a great deal of info public yesterday. Shelly and I realy injoyed hearing what he had to say and was glad he finally made some facts public.There was a lot of conversation in the cockpit not recorded. Ralph gave very exsplicit details on conversations with tina and florence .The piece of info that the FBI held back was the fact that cooper left the tie and clasp on the air craft.Of course we all know why this was info was held for so many years. The chutes cooper took were not to his benifit.Shelly and I realy enjoyed taking the group to the woods.One person mentioned , while we were at dougan falls on the washougal river to shelly if people jump in where do they end up UTAH it was a good experience for all of them.After the tour through the woods every skeptic in the group finally stated that they thought there was no way cooper survived the jump.

[snowmman 3]

The people who want 305 flying more east.

Well okay, let's accept that (with no data).

So why not then also accept that Cooper jumped in the Columbia, just more east?

People don't bring that up...they bring up these little river theories, because they were locked into the "jumping in the woods" fantasy, based on the 8:11 Lake Merwin DZ in 1972...

so mentally they say "well the money find says Lake Merwin area was wrong"...so have to shift around a bit, and look for a river in the woods that feeds the Columbia.

Instead they should focus on flight path and timeline and jump point.

Stepping back and looking at what's fuzzy and what's not, landing in a river other than the Columbia, is the least likely probablity, given all possibilities.

There's just no reason why you would grab on to it. Anyone grabbing on to it is just showing a love of the myth.

Unless someone's going to draw an alternate flight path and timeline. That would be nice. Then we could predict an alternate jump point off of that, that's consistent with other testimony.

But no one will do that. Because it makes it obvious how bogus it is.