DB Cooper

[377 22]

I have experience with pumps of all kinds from my work on commercial fishing boats. We used a lot of big centrifugal pumps but also flexible rubber impeller pumps and some gear pumps too.

Surprisingly big things can pass through centrifugal pumps relatively unharmed. If you take a centrifugal pump apart you can see the dimensions available for an entering item to get a "lucky break" and pass through unshredded. The so called blades are really vanes and items sucked in can pass between them.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Who was the NWA pilot who was an "expert parachutist" and supplied the canopy drift info?
Surely any NWA pilot who was a skydiver would have taken a huge interest in the case. Would be interesting to figure out who he was, see if he is still alive and if he (or she?) is interested in talking about the investigation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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How did the pilots know they were east?
What references did they use? instruments, visual? ???

I don't understand why they would know they were flying off V23 and by how much. And if they knew, why they would do that?

Wouldn't their VOR/DME readout make this fairly easy to determine? They can get distance (DME) and bearing (VOR) to a VORTAC station. That and a little map reading would give you a decent idea of present position and deviation from V23.

The FE could do it if the pilots were busy. It is an easy task, I think. Pilots? Please add your opinions.

377

Let me visualize.
Rat is flying the plane, and he's flying by the seat of his pants.

He sort of follows V23. His instruments tell him when he's off V23, but he says "no problem".

While flying he makes a mental note, based on some calcs off his instruments just out far off V23 he is, at some point in time, or for a long period of time.

He remembers this and brings it up at H's retirement party.

That's the theory?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I have experience with pumps of all kinds from my work on commercial fishing boats. We used a lot of big centrifugal pumps but also flexible rubber impeller pumps and some gear pumps too.

Surprisingly big things can pass through centrifugal pumps relatively unharmed. If you take a centrifugal pump apart you can see the dimensions available for an entering item to get a "lucky break" and pass through unshredded. The so called blades are really vanes and items sucked in can pass between them.

377

Right. It's part of the spec for all dredge pumps. They call it the "sphere passing diameter". You don't have to take the dredge pump apart. It's documented.

Looking at the table I posted, my guess for a 30x26 dredge pump would be about 18" diameter sphere passing. (edit) although it's variable. Modern sales brochures brag about "really good" sphere passing diameters (to avoid rock jams)...so the technology may have advanced slightly since 1974...i.e. the sphere diameter vs discharge diameter ratio.


I think people have to realize that a 30" pipeline dredge pump is freaking huge. That's why it's important to verify that it was a 30" pipeline dredge used in '74, probably the "Oregon".

The whole money bag might have gone thru and gotten shredded a bit, with some of the money protecting a small part of the money.

Heck, arms and legs probably could have gone thru.

Questions about the cutterhead are valid. But my pictures show the cutterhead blades can be huge also. So no guarantees on "money shred" there?

(edit) I'm wondering if Ckret wasn't interested in this, because the word "blades" was used, and Ckret wasn't familiar with what pump impeller "blades" really look like?

[javelin1 0]

"there was no way cooper survived the jump"
do they believe that because of terrain?we still havent determined exactly where he could have landed because of the simple fact that we dont know how soon after exiting the aircraft did he deploy his parachute.IF AT ALL

[377 22]

Quote

While flying he makes a mental note, based on some calcs off his instruments just out far off V23 he is, at some point in time, or for a long period of time.

He remembers this and brings it up at H's retirement party.

That's the theory?

Hard to understand why he would keep this critical info to himself for years. Is there any credible theory about how Rat might have been unaware of the actual area searched until many years later???

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

While flying he makes a mental note, based on some calcs off his instruments just out far off V23 he is, at some point in time, or for a long period of time.

He remembers this and brings it up at H's retirement party.

That's the theory?

Hard to understand why he would keep this critical info to himself for years. Is there any credible theory about how Rat might have been unaware of the actual area searched until many years later???

377

I thought they were talking about Lake Merwin in the papers right away. I think they got stuck on Lake Merwin 11/71 and the '72 map just confirmed their already created bias.

So Rat would have known.

Rat didn't create the new information until after the money was found (the retirement party was like within weeks or a week? of the money find)

(edit) I also want to point out, that there's a strong bias to believing anything Himmelsbach says, because of his FBI and pilot background. It seems inconceivable that Himmelsbach would pass along random anecdotal data, just like Jo.

Once you accept that the way Jo and Himmelsbach create opinions, can be very similar, then it becomes easier to sort out stuff.

If you read the Norjak book, and the examples of people investigated that Himmelsbach provides, you can see Himmelsbach biases clearly.

So my bias was pre-primed to believe Himmelsbach could be as much of a whack job as Jo.

[377 22]

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"there was no way cooper survived the jump"
do they believe that because of terrain?we still havent determined exactly where he could have landed because of the simple fact that we dont know how soon after exiting the aircraft did he deploy his parachute.IF AT ALL

It would have been easy for Cooper to have one hand on the ripcord handle as he exited. The Air America 727 jump videos (and especially Snow's frame clips) showed, to my great surprise, that an immediate post exit round sleeveless canopy deployment was not especially violent.

A hard pull (C 9 canopy in an unextended NB6 container?) and subsequent panic, tumbling and disorientation could mean Cooper never deployed, but we have no evidence about that.

I have jumped from a jet (DC9). It isnt really such a big deal. If Cooper pulled, he landed alive in my opinion. Jerry seems to say, and I have to give him some deference here because he knows the territory,
that even if Cooper landed alive in the area where Jerry thinks he came down, he didnt survive the night. Snow disputes that and has offered (for a price) to emulate a Cooper landing in the Washougal and come out to civilization on his feet, not in a body bag.

I have a mini 121.5 MHz rescue beacon that I will loan to Snow along with an APRS tracking beacon that will post his position to this website every few minutes should he decide to go.

http://aprs.fi/

I think Snow actually could get funding for a reenactment jump. He'd have to learn how to skydive but that would only take a couple of months.

I'd bet on Snow just cause he is such an ornery tenacious guy and has a lot of outdoor experience in harsh conditions. Jerry would bet against him based on his local knowledge and military survival training.
Georger would bet with Jerry for sure.

Orange? Sluggo? Guru? Nigel? Jo? others?

Where would you place your bets?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

"I'd bet on Snow just cause he is such an ornery tenacious guy and has a lot of outdoor experience in harsh conditions."

People tend to limit themselves mentally when they evaluate things.

For example:

If you were driving a car down a back road in WA at night, what are the odds that it would end up with you on foot, and me driving your car away?

You might say "I wouldn't stop"

But what if I dragged some logs across the road, and then heaved some rocks thru your window after you stopped?

[377 22]

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So my bias was pre-primed to believe Himmelsbach could be as much of a whack job as Jo.

We all have our biases and it is true that an FBI agent gets a lot more instant credibility than we do, much of it undeserved.

Still, I just cannot put Ralph in the whack job category. It is because of my bias in favor of pilots who can fly very complex high performance aircraft successfully. Ralph flew P 51s and P 40s in a military environment. That takes a LOT of aviation skill and a reasonable amount of intelligence. Ralph knows aviation. He has been in it a long time and, at least initially, at a very high skill and training level.

Instrument flight in P 51s and P 40s involved no VOR, no DME, just a radio compass (ADF) and an ILS and marker beacon receiver. Pilots from that era understand air navigation in a basic way that new pilots with the benefits of VOR, DME, GPS etc never will.

Ralph is far more than a weekend Bonanza pilot. I just don't think he is going to make some huge dumb mistake about any aviation aspect of the case. Bias? Sure, we all are biased. Whack job? Nahhh, not in my book.

I am not trying to curry favor with Ralph, just give him the respect he deserves on aviation matters.
He could be way off base on other aspects of the case but I think on aviation related aspects he probably knows what he is talking about. That doesn't mean his speculative conclusions are correct, just that he has the smarts and training to make some good guesses.

I sure wish he had interviewed thr NWA pilots.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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If you were driving a car down a back road in WA at night, what are the odds that it would end up with you on foot, and me driving your car away?

You might say "I wouldn't stop"

But what if I dragged some logs across the road, and then heaved some rocks thru your window after you stopped?

Like I said, ornery and tenacious. Do you need any more proof?

I'd just stand in the middle of the road looking like a normal person in distress, make up a sympathetic story and hope for the best.

There was a military jet pilot who ejected somewhere in California (in the 60s?, near the coast, perhaps a water chute landing). He made it to a busy road and couldn't get motorists to stop for him for a long time. He was bloody and bedraggled as I recall the news stories. He finally made it to a pay phone and got an operator to place an emergency call for him.

Snow should teach survival training to military pilots. Carjacking is definitely on the Snowmman's post ejection survival menu.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

Quote

I have experience with pumps of all kinds from my work on commercial fishing boats. We used a lot of big centrifugal pumps but also flexible rubber impeller pumps and some gear pumps too.

Surprisingly big things can pass through centrifugal pumps relatively unharmed. If you take a centrifugal pump apart you can see the dimensions available for an entering item to get a "lucky break" and pass through unshredded. The so called blades are really vanes and items sucked in can pass between them.

377

This might be as good a time as any for me to
express my own particular bias in this whole matter.
Generally speaking in matters of science, I look first
for explanations which are within normal parameters
before going off looking for something unusual.
Experience has shown over the mellina that special explanations generally fail the test of time, as new
better data surfaces. It usually comes down to a
question of having the data. Once the data is
available then the correct explanation usually follows.
But collecting the data can be very difficult.

What-if's and 'could happen' usually are the wrong
approach.

I tend to believe the whole Cooper story falls within
the limits of the ordinary, if we only had been there
to observe and see it firsthand. That is my bias.

The money probably came to Tina Bar by some
ordinary means and route, if we only knew the
particulars. I think the money washed up at Tina
Bar by the same means other things wash up on
Tina Bar. The only questions are when and in
what condition. I know of nothing to date which
suggests anything else.

Can we explain the money being at Tina Bar without
resort to the dredging event at all? Then in that context, does the dredging event add anything or
enhance the first explanation. I think it may.

[snowmman 3]

"Still, I just cannot put Ralph in the whack job category."

What kind of person goes on tour to the woods with Jerry, with a bunch of old biddies from a sewing group, telling stories about Cooper back in the day, that are devoid of facts?

Even Jo doesn't do that.

[georger 247]

I'd bet on Snow just cause he is such an ornery tenacious guy and has a lot of outdoor experience in harsh conditions. Jerry would bet against him based on his local knowledge and military survival training.
Georger would bet with Jerry for sure.
377

[georger 247]

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Geoger Ralph has seen both maps. and both are wrong. You and I have discused this in detail in the past. the fligt path was over the troutdale airport.This was also mentioned at the conference I realy wish all of you could have been there.you would have been enlightened and most of the questions you all ask now would have been answered.There was a aeronaghtical engineer from calif.even his questions were answered. Ralph didn't hold much back.He was,however very ademant about the fact that cooper could not have landed in the columbia river and gave all reasons as to why.Please excuse my spelling. I did mention that you would like to talk to him and he said you could call him and that he would enjoy talking to you.

I am smiling broadly -

[georger 247]

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Let me try to add something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty. Some may call it anecdotal, if so, I’m not offended. I’m in the same boat with the rest of you, too many statements and not enough “facts”.

In a phone conversation with Ralph Himmelsbach on March 6th, 2009. While sitting in my car outside the Conestoga Steak House in Dothan, AL. I asked Ralph, point blank; “Where did the data for the flight path, shown on the 1970s era Seattle sectional (do you know the one I mean?, Ralph says “yes”) come from?” “Do you know who produced (drew) the map itself?”

Ralph replied (without hesitation); “I DON’T KNOW!”

What I should have (additionally) asked was; “Were you aware of the map BEFORE your retirement?” I will be talking to him next week and I will ask that question then.

Maybe we can figure out the origin of the document that we (I) have put so much faith in.

Sluggo_Monster

Exempt from the “something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty” statement above:

Aditionally, there is an aviation professional that I am aware of but have not yet been able to contact (but I am trying) who was an eye-witness, and disputes Ralph’s claim about the deviation toward Troutdale (the town, not the airport).

You should have him: did it come from NWA at
Minneapolis. He surely would know that!

[377 22]

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What kind of person goes on tour to the woods with Jerry, with a bunch of old biddies from a sewing group, telling stories about Cooper back in the day, that are devoid of facts?

Even Jo doesn't do that

I don't know Snow, sounds like a pleasant afternoon to me. It is just like hunting or fishing, you know. A few tall tales are expected. Talk about "the one that got away"... Cooper is the ULTIMATE.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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jerry said:
"fly what ever direction they needed they needed they were not on radar"

Jerry, this doesn't align with other information.
Who told you 305 wasn't on radar?

The story is wilder every minute!

for whatever its worth I have the same story from other
sources. Seattle radar did not reach to PDX, PDX
had 305 on radar but wasnt paying attention!? Things
like that. but somebody made the NWA map somehow
with something!

[snowmman 3]

I quoted the Palmer Report (Clay Layer) before.

But in re-reading it, it looks like it was used to discount dredging theories also.

If we had the report, we'd be able to review..

Norjak book says on page 110

Portland State University geologist Leonard Palmer discounted a theory that the cash had been deposited in 1974 by Corps of Engineers dredging oeprations. Palmer noted that the money had been located in a layer of coarse sand that ranged from several inches to four feet thick. He found two other distinct layers of sand and sediment on top of the material dredged from the river.

that same page also repeats the statement about finding "fragments of bills as deep as three feet in the same sand formation"...although the co-author may have gotten that from news reports?

also says "No other major segments of bills were found"

(edit) I mention this, because it maybe steered thinking away from dredging. It may have been correct, or may have been incorrect. We can't know since we don't have the report.

[georger 247]

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Why did the FBI devote so many resources to the initial search area? They must have gathared the information from the flight crew. Why would Rat and or Scott never 'bother' to let the FBI know they were searching in the wrong location until 10 years after the fact?!?!? There are some things that just do not add up.

It's very simple if you remember one thing.

Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach.
Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI)

The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time.

I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ.
They may not have had all the information.

Yes! and it has to be NWA Soderlind group. Who else
would it be? WHO HAS THE VESTED INTEREST AND IS
FEEDING INFO TO THE FBI? - NWA!

This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI
is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from
McChord.

But it is NWA wagging all tails, nbot the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. Thats trhe chain of command dictated by
WHO has the flight info! The probably were many
phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA.

I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA.
H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the
discussions and decision making that got passed to
the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI
was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never
talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter.
H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in
Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis.

[377 22]

Georger wrote:

Quote

This might be as good a time as any for me to
express my own particular bias in this whole matter.
Generally speaking in matters of science, I look first
for explanations which are within normal parameters
before going off looking for something unusual.
Experience has shown over the mellina that special explanations generally fail the test of time, as new
better data surfaces. It usually comes down to a
question of having the data. Once the data is
available then the correct explanation usually follows.
But collecting the data can be very difficult.

I agree with G., but I don't view Occam's razor as a bias. It is common sense. If you don't use it, you can bring in the paranormal/conspiracies/new age "science" etc. to explain all mysteries.

Quote

Occam's Razor, also Ockham's Razor,[1] is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Why did the FBI devote so many resources to the initial search area? They must have gathared the information from the flight crew. Why would Rat and or Scott never 'bother' to let the FBI know they were searching in the wrong location until 10 years after the fact?!?!? There are some things that just do not add up.

It's very simple if you remember one thing.

Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach.
Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI)

The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time.

I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ.


REPLY ::::::::::

one more thing. What could account for Rat and Scott
showing up late with info to the FBI? Orders from
NWA! Scott/Rat dont work for the FBI.

Im not saying Scott & Rat lied or witheld info exactly,
just that their orders come from ... NWA.

If anyone knows what happens corporate officials at NWA have the best info, were talking as the event was
happening, ....... now maybe others were listening
but I seriously wonder if anyone in the FBI overheard
the phone patched conversation between 305 and NWA
officials?

I strongly suspect NWA knows more than the FBI did.

[snowmman 3]

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jerry said:
"fly what ever direction they needed they needed they were not on radar"

Jerry, this doesn't align with other information.
Who told you 305 wasn't on radar?

The story is wilder every minute!

for whatever its worth I have the same story from other
sources. Seattle radar did not reach to PDX, PDX
had 305 on radar but wasnt paying attention!? Things
like that. but somebody made the NWA map somehow
with something!

The idea that Seattle radar did not reach PDX is clearly wrong.
the transcripts show that.
Also, I've shown that it is possible that at the lowest levels, the radar in use in 1971 is still in use today at Seattle ARTCC.
(they definitely upgraded parts of it. But I think they still have ARSR-1/2. (ZSE at Auburn, WA http://nas-architecture.faa.gov/nas/location/location_data.cfm?fid=20 )

A visit to them would confirm this, or get more info.

But the data used was McChord, so the point might be moot.

(edit) Note that the local Seattle TRACON ATC radar wouldn't reach PDX. I'm talking about Seattle ARTCC (there are 21 ARTCC sites in the USA) ...which we have the transcripts from.
(i have no idea if people digest info here or ???)

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

During the 70's how ofter would you say there was sombody on Tena's bar in the area where the money was found? multipal a day?, Daily?, weekly?, monthly???? I am just curious, i have not seen much as to traffic this spot received by humans consistantly. I ask this in thinking, If this "washes up" on shore with a lot of foot traffic in the area don't you find the odds better it found before several inches of sand cover it?

[georger 247]

The most interesting recent fact is someone mentioning the complete lack of NWA statements - funny how it is nearly impossible to view the past without distortion as my immediate thought was there must be a mountain of paperwork/risk assessments and other documentation they would have had to fill out. Perhaps back then they just sent a ticket person to the local police dept and reported hijacking and then put in insurance claim over the phone

One fact is certain in my mind: NWA drew the
dropzone map, which the first graphic attempt by
anyone to document the flight of 305. I think the map
came from Soderlind and a smallgroup who huddled and put the map together in Minneapolis based on
the realtime live conversations with 305 the night of
11-24-71.

Then NWA shared their map with the FBI and LE.
Probably faxed it to them..

some clerk may know all about it!

NWA may even have had a protocol for handling
such events. Nyrop was available almost instantly
for one thing. Everybody knew everybody, people
were working in various roles very quickly, ... the
whole thing suggests corporate protocols activated.

In addition, we dont really know what the role of the
FAA was in this or how large, reports they made, roles
they played...

The Cooper story is a story of how beaurocracies work.

And every single person you talk to who who played
some role in the total beaurocratic structure is 'dead sure' his facts are the true facts and the only facts!
And you know that cannot be true. People in beaurocracies are like that however. Every single person is an expert in his or her role and an "authority", until it all unravels in the end and nobody knows anything!