georger 247
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georger 247
Snow Hi. some times we think in ancient terms. or just get side tracked like you. However some times there are those that need there paciphier. or there diapper changed. Still some of your comments are realy not propper and yet a lot are its hard to put you in your corner, The put downs are not cool to say the least if you would like. My wife says we can adopt you. you raise good questions and are very good at computers we are all prowd of you but please stop the put downs. Your still Invited to our wedding aniversevery on July 26th. Remember adoption is optional. Please be on your best behavior. I will answer your questions if they are without ridcule and continue to be so. Jerry
Im homeless too! Adopt me!
I will thrown in a whole corporation.
377 22
Now Lets look at reality. It is a solvable case all that has to be done is to find evidence of where he landed. its obvious that he had to leave something at his landing site Whether it be a skull or just a piece of cloth. Something is there.
I think Jerry has a really good point. Cooper had no reason to pack the chute out with him. Safe landing or fatal impact, there is a chute out there in either case.
Careful about trying to domesticate Snow Jerry. Look what happened to Siegfried and Roy. I am a Snow fan, but they have cages for a reason.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Flying low around the Portland area, distracted by a gear problem, this UAL DC 8 jet crew blew it big time.
Interesting read about what goes on in the cockpit flying around in that area at low altitudes and how fast you burn fuel.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/disasters/crash/united173.htm
377
Interesting read about what goes on in the cockpit flying around in that area at low altitudes and how fast you burn fuel.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/disasters/crash/united173.htm
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 247
I was watching my wrist altimeter when jumpers ahead of me were exiting the DC 9-21 at WFFC 2006. We exited at about 14,000 ft AGL.
I could very clearly feel (in my ears) every single jumper exit. I could have been blindfolded and accurately counted every exiting jumper. It was kind of a swoosh with a mild thunk at the end of the "noise". The corresponding wrist altimeter needle movement was not really noticeable. Maybe the 727 FE panel cabin altimeter is more sensitive.
377
There is one small issue Ive never spoken to -
Somewhere in the remote past someone (maybe
Scott) spoke to the issue of trim while flying a
727. He described the trim as being sensitive, so
sensitive 'once the passangers are seated and things are quiet, I can tell when a stewardess
walks from the front to the back - I have to change
the trim very slightly.'
Maybe on the evening of 11-24-71, trim was not
an issue, due to winds and buffeting? Thats never
been mentioned by Scott, Rat, or anyone that I
know of. It has never been mentioned with respect
to Cooper leaving the plane.
377 22
Because we are so wacked out here, the hardcore old skydivers post the good 727 exit photos elsewhere.
The first photo might shows the gear down, flaps and LE slats deployed and stairs down.
Check out the 727 stair exit shot from the interior.
It is not the first photo posted.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3526534;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
377
The first photo might shows the gear down, flaps and LE slats deployed and stairs down.
Check out the 727 stair exit shot from the interior.
It is not the first photo posted.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3526534;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Adopt you. No way your as ugly as I am. some one might think we are actualy related. Kiding aside snow provides alot to computer expertise and has been very usefull to this forum. He has also brought all of you guys to the same conclusions that actual test has provided. Still If I adopt him could it be a nitemare. I think not Just a experience that could be worse . Just Kiding. Jerry
Even if cooper had tried to deploy his chute at the same time of his jump. We must remember it was not user friendly. He would have had deployment problems as orange 1 mentioned and tombling problems. The tombling promblems would be quicker if the chute was deployed befor stabilization.This is normal.Experienced jumpers Know.
georger 247
Adopt you. No way your as ugly as I am. some one might think we are actualy related. Kiding aside snow provides alot to computer expertise and has been very usefull to this forum. He has also brought all of you guys to the same conclusions that actual test has provided. Still If I adopt him could it be a nitemare. I think not Just a experience that could be worse . Just Kiding. Jerry
will call soon -
Please do. Jerry
snowmman 3
Sluggo is giving you insight into how a generic pilot would think and act in the situation, not how you would.
agree. To make matters worse Rat & Scott (Anderson) were apparently never asked to clarify
what Rat meant, or what Rat's word "felt" meant.
But now, given they had not flown v23 before, Rat's
word "felt" may mean: 'I wasnt sure what was what!'
Vancouver vs Portland ....... all just lights? They
did have charts.
And of course if they crossed at Troutdale, that
offers a different perspective with Vancouver &
Portland on their right flank the whole way through.
Good point about the charts Georger.
I don't know what Sluggo is saying with respect to the lights, since Rataczak wasn't looking at any chart when he was flying?
(edit) Or was he? I'm not sure what the theory is.
So if he didn't know the area, he was guessing.
If he knew the area, maybe he couldn't see well.
I'm still not sure if people think he knew the area or not.
What it sounds like, is Rataczak said something, and people are trying to come up with ways to shoehorn it into whatever meaning they're looking for.
We need the Rataczak interview from the FBI to go any further on this.
I still don't understand how you can look at any of that, and say that is more likely that it means this vs that.
And yes, if Flight 305 flew over Troutdale, then even its flying over Troutdale is questionable, because we have no data on that.
But if it did, then it could have flown anywhere.
And since Rataczak's testimony REALLY doesn't fit then, we just throw it all out!
Cooper Jumped At Reno!
(edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?
Snow if you want Coopers drop zone to be Reno ,so Be It. If You want to continue to debate this isue. Please tire yourself out . If you want to continue to debate what someone said good. However If you would like to help solve this case. Go to the computer and plot a course 10 to 13 miles east of the original suspected drop zone and post it.
snowmman 3
Snow if you want Coopers drop zone to be Reno ,so Be It. If You want to continue to debate this isue. Please tire yourself out . If you want to continue to debate what someone said good. However If you would like to help solve this case. Go to the computer and plot a course 10 to 13 miles east of the original suspected drop zone and post it.
Hi Jerry.
My posts aren't directed to you. Feel free to read them, since I post them for everyone to think about. But you don't need to respond to every one.
I have been wondering about your perception of me. I really am 49 turning 50 this summer. It's pretty odd to have you try to interact with me like I'm some kid. From this side, I've given up on getting anything useful from you. Just trying to be straight with you. I'm sure you're a different guy in real life. But that doesn't matter here.
snowmman 3
Because we are so wacked out here, the hardcore old skydivers post the good 727 exit photos elsewhere.
The first photo might shows the gear down, flaps and LE slats deployed and stairs down.
Check out the 727 stair exit shot from the interior.
It is not the first photo posted.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3526534;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
377
I wanted to post to that thread so bad 377, but I know my place :)
I was really curious about the stairs. Were they locked down? I think not. Which means they just dropped from the weight of the two jumpers? I wonder if the stairs popped back up after the jump? I can't see in the first photo. Be interesting to see it in the movie. It's supposed to be in the beginning?
It appears to me (from searching around) that the 727-200 had the stair lock down feature, so they could use the aft stairs as a tail stand when a 727 was on the ground. The earlier 727's (like the 727-051 of Cooper's) didn't.
Evidently the movie plane was a 727-100, and was owned by Ray Kroc, and was used as the baseball Padres team plane. Remember that Ray Kroc took over MacDonalds and made it huge.
Supposedly the jumper landed on Mt. Lemmon in Tucson, AZ?
Snow all kiding aside your great I've always said that on and off the forum. However don't let it build your eggo to high.Coming from me it realy doesn't mean much. Jerry
snowmman,
You said:
It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
You said:
(edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?
It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
I think Jerry has some real good intentions, but how on earth can anyone determine a DZ with the info currently available. It has more holes in it than swiss cheese. I would agree to go on a search with you Jerry, if I knew we had some evidence to search a given area. Otherwise it is all just one big crapshoot.
I often wondered if Coop just threw out a few stacks of bills from the plane intending it to be found to throw off the search. There would be no way three bundles would stay together in it's freefall though...Could they?
I often wondered if Coop just threw out a few stacks of bills from the plane intending it to be found to throw off the search. There would be no way three bundles would stay together in it's freefall though...Could they?
snowmman 3
snowmman,
You said:(edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?
It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens.
Sluggo_Monster
Right. exactly.
And the flight path does show he was east of V-23.
I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.
Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.
I'm expecting someone will eventually draw this magic alternate flight path, and it will be obvious nothing fits with it. It fits as long as you don't draw it. :)
SNOW, you have the plane that has been discussed here that was suposedly behind and above, go back a few pages you guys went back and forth about it for a while.
Mr.Nuke 0
snowmman said:
We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC.
I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.
Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.
We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC.
Mr.Nuke 0
Georger said:
Yes, but I'm almost certain they were operating under instrument flight rules (IFR). We have been looking at sectional charts and particularly the sectional that had the estimated flight path traced on it. Under IFR they would have used the IFR inroute low altitude chart (In this case L-1).
You can see sectionals, low altitude (victor), and high altitude (jet) at:
http://skyvector.com/
As you will see the enroute IFR charts provide you a lot less information about the ground. They do give you the necessary information to maintain instrument navigation.
They did have charts.
Yes, but I'm almost certain they were operating under instrument flight rules (IFR). We have been looking at sectional charts and particularly the sectional that had the estimated flight path traced on it. Under IFR they would have used the IFR inroute low altitude chart (In this case L-1).
You can see sectionals, low altitude (victor), and high altitude (jet) at:
http://skyvector.com/
As you will see the enroute IFR charts provide you a lot less information about the ground. They do give you the necessary information to maintain instrument navigation.
snowmman 3
snowmman said:
I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.
Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.
We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC.
My understanding of ATC is that it's not a thing where you can drink beer while working, right? They really like to know what a plane is going to do, before it does it right?
If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts?
"Oh you're flying over there now. OK"
"Yeah taking it east a bit"
"Roger that. Any way you want to approach PDX is fine with me"
"Roger. Yeah we'll see what happens"
"Oh there you go, bye bye"
"What, you say something? My ears just popped"
Doesn't the lack of additional voice comms pretty much say they were flying as expected on V23??
What happens if you're flying and you start diverging? Does ATC say anything to you usually?
I think Sluggo's point about never having flown a
'low alt' route is very valid.
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