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quade 4
QuoteIf the FBI had any proof Weber was NOT Cooper they would have told me yrs ago just to get rid of me. RIGHT? What is happening now is NOT insignificant - if the FBI had this "proof" it would be unconscientable to withhold it.
The problem is, it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen.
For instance, not seeing fingerprints at a crime scene doesn't prove somebody wasn't there.
However, seeing fingerprints proves somebody was. Matching fingerprints proves a specific person was there.
There's no way to prove Duane wasn't on the plane by a lack of his fingerprints, however, if he had left some, well, we'd know for certain he was.
THAT is what the FBI has never found and what Jo continues to fail to do, PROVE he was on the plane.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The picture has been enlarged to obscure the text - orginal photo was very small.
The Measure of Life
Doing nothing for others is the undoing of ourselves.
The Measure of Life
Doing nothing for others is the undoing of ourselves.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 247
QuoteQuoteIf the FBI had any proof Weber was NOT Cooper they would have told me yrs ago just to get rid of me. RIGHT? What is happening now is NOT insignificant - if the FBI had this "proof" it would be unconscientable to withhold it.
The problem is, it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen.
For instance, not seeing fingerprints at a crime scene doesn't prove somebody wasn't there.
However, seeing fingerprints proves somebody was. Matching fingerprints proves a specific person was there.
There's no way to prove Duane wasn't on the plane by a lack of his fingerprints, however, if he had left some, well, we'd know for certain he was.
THAT is what the FBI has never found and what Jo continues to fail to do, PROVE he was on the plane.
The above is true. Plus we are all at a distinct disadvantage here because none of us has the data
the FBI has, whatever it has but Ckret clearly stated
there are 69 prints (at least) that were recovred none
of which presumably matched with any aspect of Duane's prints which they have. There was an issue about these prints not being useful in the automated
data sort system.
Cooper handled things on the plane. He left prints or
something.
Its just extremely frustrating not having the data to
make headway. Guess and mental exercises cant
go very far, especially in the face of someone saying
her husband was Cooper.
Jo's last mission to Washington was crucial. You
would expect as much documentation as possible,
even bending over backwards to document everything.
But Im only projecting what I would try and do. I
would have camped out in ditches and eaten worms
to do so, if required! But that's just me
QuoteJo's last mission to Washington was crucial. You
would expect as much documentation as possible,
even bending over backwards to document everything.
I depended on the crew, but the quide was a college student who had only been in WA for 2 yrs. I didn't expect to need a camera but I should have borrowed one from one of the ladies - I just didnt think about it because my extra day in WA without the Crew was arranged on the last moment.
You didn't wait for me to download the picture.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
Quote
The problem is, it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen.
This is a point that has been raised repeatedly here, yet Jo continues to insist it is up to the FBI to prove to her he wasn't Cooper (she has made countless posts to this effect). There are another, what, 200 million people we could ask them to "prove" were not Cooper, yet she still fails to see how ridiculous this assertion is and continues to say things like.
QuoteIf the FBI had any proof Weber was NOT Cooper they would have told me
Poor old Larry who went much further than he usually would to try find a Duane connection. Lack of fingerprints, lack of DNA, lack of anything except wild stories (and the mysterious disappearance of the one person who apparently "understood"... i think this is the first I saw that Jo had not been able to contact Udell on the numbe she was given.. yet she sees nothing strange in this the way I presume the rest of us do)
Quade, I find it interesting you are posting more often now. A new voice of reason is welcome in 377's apparent general absence, although reason does not always seem welcome.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
You've posted this photo before, and we couldn't even agree on the gender of the child much less who it was.
Rather than playing stupid "who what when" games, why don't you just STATE OUTRIGHT who you think the kid in the photo is and what connection to Cooper (not Weber, but COOPER) it had.
This is getting too pathetic for words 
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
QuoteYou've posted this photo before, and we couldn't even agree on the gender of the child much less who it was.
You didn't look at that picture very well did you? This was the little girl and one of the pages of the book, but I covered up part of the text with the photo ON purpose.
I had done it as a document so you could see the water damage.
I had planned on making the post and then stay quiet, but that seems to be impossible. Pathetic I am not - I am gutsy and I fight the battle. I may not win, but it won't be because I didn't give it all I got.
I am attaching the document again so you can see that it is NOT just the photo. Why would I make a statement about obscuring the text?.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quotethe mysterious disappearance of the one person who apparently "understood"... i think this is the first I saw that Jo had not been able to contact Udell on the numbe she was given.. yet she sees nothing strange in this the way I presume the rest of us do)
I am the one who is crazy here - yet I seem to remember the story about WHY she became the ANGEL Udell - because she vanished without a trace,
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 247
QuoteQuoteJo's last mission to Washington was crucial. You
would expect as much documentation as possible,
even bending over backwards to document everything.
I depended on the crew, but the quide was a college student who had only been in WA for 2 yrs. I didn't expect to need a camera but I should have borrowed one from one of the ladies - I just didnt think about it because my extra day in WA without the Crew was arranged on the last moment.
You didn't wait for me to download the picture.
Jo I have family photos too. Your photo could be
a photo of Moses for all I know -
georger 247
QuoteQuote
The problem is, it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen.
This is a point that has been raised repeatedly here, yet Jo continues to insist it is up to the FBI to prove to her he wasn't Cooper (she has made countless posts to this effect). There are another, what, 200 million people we could ask them to "prove" were not Cooper, yet she still fails to see how ridiculous this assertion is and continues to say things like.QuoteIf the FBI had any proof Weber was NOT Cooper they would have told me
Poor old Larry who went much further than he usually would to try find a Duane connection. Lack of fingerprints, lack of DNA, lack of anything except wild stories (and the mysterious disappearance of the one person who apparently "understood"... i think this is the first I saw that Jo had not been able to contact Udell on the numbe she was given.. yet she sees nothing strange in this the way I presume the rest of us do)QuoteThis why I decided to press it a bit. Its
was never fully explained before -
Quade, I find it interesting you are posting more often now. A new voice of reason is welcome in 377's apparent general absence, although reason does not always seem welcome.
Im still cogitating on the mathematics of Quade's
'cant prove a negative', if that is what it is, and Im
not it is, actually. This is not a paradox. We place a
mouse in a box and wait then release the mouse.
We find no evidence of the mouse in the box - so
the mouse was never in the box? What we found
was evidence of at least 69 mice in the box, but
was one of these our mouse? 0!x69 = 69. Good grief
we put 69 mice inthe box!
georger 247
QuoteQuotethe mysterious disappearance of the one person who apparently "understood"... i think this is the first I saw that Jo had not been able to contact Udell on the numbe she was given.. yet she sees nothing strange in this the way I presume the rest of us do)
I am the one who is crazy here - yet I seem to remember the story about WHY she became the ANGEL Udell - because she vanished without a trace,
So do we search motor vehicle records for the year
under "Angel Udell". Did she give you her first name?
Did she know the Fazio's? Did she know any other person and give any account of her history? I thought
you said she was in trucking-hauling? Was she bigger than a bread box? For God's sake dont say
she had wings.
Ok., So the H2O stains on the photo indicate ...
thephoto was in the Columbia? I made the leap
given your clues. Confirm or deny.
quade 4
QuoteQuade, I find it interesting you are posting more often now.
Don't read too much into it.
Some days I have more time on my hands than others.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
377 22
QuoteHe could have been the spotter on the plane in smoke jumping - responsible for his cargo (the jumpers) to go down in the correct place - I expect he also wore a chute just incase he fell out. These guys needed help with the huge bundles they jumped with.
Hence "The World Greatest Jock Carrier" The jumpers were his responsiblity. Over the yrs he made statements I now realize he could have had no knowledge of unless he had some training in this, but to what extent I have NO idea.
Jo,
I still have seen ZERO proof that connects Duane with any aspect of sport, military or fire fighting parachuting. If you could put Duane under a chute with irrefutable evidence, you'd catch my attention for sure. So far it's just speculation and nothing more.
You have speculated that Duane was involved in smoke jumping, perhaps as a spotter rather than a jumper, but I have seen zero evidence and find it highly unlikely that he was given his criminal record. I doubt if "spotters" were people with no jump experience. You have to have jump experience to know how to be a good spotter in my book. I don't know enough about smoke jumping to give any solid conclusions. I don't even know if they had what you refer to as "spotters."
The history of smoke jumping in the NW is surprisingly well documented. As far as I can tell, none of the historians have included Duane in any aspect of this specialized profession.
What exactly are the statements you refer to that connect Duane with smoke jumping, even as a spotter? Who heard them besides you? Please give us exactly what he said. Don't mix in what you think he might have meant.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Orange1 0
Quote]You didn't look at that picture very well did you? This was the little girl and one of the pages of the book, but I covered up part of the text with the photo ON purpose.
You didn't pay much attention to the discussion did you? You claimed it was a girl, but most or all of the rest of us couldn't even see enough detail to figure out if it was a boy or a girl. If you want to play games and obscure text or talk about "the" girl, fine, but here's a lesson for you: if you play games, don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Again - unless you are prepared to say who the child is and what the connection to Cooper (not Weber, but Cooper) is, how can you expect anyone to take this seriously? For all we know it is Chevron Man when he was a kid. Or Lee Harvey Oswald. Or Bob Dylan. Or Hilary Clinton. Or just some unfortunate child whose name no-one knows, who got abandoned by a father that they never saw again in their lives.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
All,
From the time I spent with Jo and my own research, I find John C. Collins a.k.a. Duane Weber to be a fascinating person with a very interesting (maybe even charmed) history. I spend a lot of time wondering what would have happened if someone other than Jo had been pursuing Duane Weber/John C. Collins’ association with the NORJAK case. If it had been someone who would recognize objective evidence and its value to an investigation, as opposed to someone who only values subjective association by the observer.
Her Claims Re: Objective Evidence:
She held the ticket receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX).
She held a parking receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX).
She saw (up close) the bank bag (no date, no identified link to NORJAK).
Duane/John confessed to being Cooper.
Duane/John had some (possible) skydiving hardware that he treasured.
Her Claims Re: Subjective Associating:
Note: As I started listing these I realized the list is very long and everyone who posts here frequently knows what is on the list. So I won’t take time or space to list them here.
Now, before I go further, I want to make a statement about “Subjective Association.”:
Subjective association in and of itself is not necessarily bad, evil, or wrong-headed. Ckret has been pushing an investigative technique that is based entirely on “subjective association.” (i.e. This statement from the FBI Website: “You can help. We’re providing here, for the first time, a series of pictures and information on the case. Please look it all over carefully to see if it triggers a memory or if you can provide any useful information.”). Also, Ckret once posted that maybe by going public it might trigger a memory about that weird old uncle that disappeared in 1971 (paraphrased).
The problem with Jo’s “Weber was Cooper” thesis is that she takes the thinnest of subjective associations and daisy-chains them into what appears to be a strong link (in her mind at least).
As for me:
I don’t know if Collins/Weber was Cooper.
I don’t know if Gossett was Cooper.
I don’t know if McCoy was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Christiansen was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Barb Dayton was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Teddy Mayfield was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I do know, however, that Jo Weber has so poorly presented her case for “Collins/Weber as Cooper” that she has prejudiced everyone, even the most open-minded (serious) investigator (including members of the FBI). The situation has now reached the point where everyone who truly wants to contribute to the solution of NORJAK, has taken a position of ignoring her incoherent ramblings or, in some cases become openly hostile toward her.
I have repeatedly asked Jo to turn her research and “evidence” over to a trusted (trustworthy) third party and allow them to review the material and then present the case for “Weber/Collins was Cooper” and/or make a statement that there is no evidence in the “evidence”.
She has repeatedly refused.
So, now, I would like to make another proposal (publically) to Jo:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jo,
Please turn your three or four suitcases of research and “evidence” over to a committee of serious NORJAK researchers to make a determination about John/Duane’s possible involvement in NORJAK. This action would restore some credibility while allowing you to be through with what you have described as a 13-year nightmare.
In this era (2009), your documents could be scanned and sent electronically to the committee members without you actually relinquishing the physical documents. You could choose to withhold some documents (but, they would not be placed into consideration by the committee).
My suggestions for members of the committee:
And in no particular order:
Absolutely excluded (for reasons that will remain unstated):
Respectfully,
Sluggo_Monster
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will notice my recommendations for inclusion on the committee aren’t exactly my “circle of friends,” but I think they would give it a serious effort and provide a good balance to guarantee a fair outcome.
What do others think (especially if you were listed)?
Jo, what do you think? Be careful, your answer will say a lot about your “true” intentions here on DZ dot com.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
From the time I spent with Jo and my own research, I find John C. Collins a.k.a. Duane Weber to be a fascinating person with a very interesting (maybe even charmed) history. I spend a lot of time wondering what would have happened if someone other than Jo had been pursuing Duane Weber/John C. Collins’ association with the NORJAK case. If it had been someone who would recognize objective evidence and its value to an investigation, as opposed to someone who only values subjective association by the observer.
Her Claims Re: Objective Evidence:
She held the ticket receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX).
She held a parking receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX).
She saw (up close) the bank bag (no date, no identified link to NORJAK).
Duane/John confessed to being Cooper.
Duane/John had some (possible) skydiving hardware that he treasured.
Her Claims Re: Subjective Associating:
Note: As I started listing these I realized the list is very long and everyone who posts here frequently knows what is on the list. So I won’t take time or space to list them here.
Now, before I go further, I want to make a statement about “Subjective Association.”:
Subjective association in and of itself is not necessarily bad, evil, or wrong-headed. Ckret has been pushing an investigative technique that is based entirely on “subjective association.” (i.e. This statement from the FBI Website: “You can help. We’re providing here, for the first time, a series of pictures and information on the case. Please look it all over carefully to see if it triggers a memory or if you can provide any useful information.”). Also, Ckret once posted that maybe by going public it might trigger a memory about that weird old uncle that disappeared in 1971 (paraphrased).
The problem with Jo’s “Weber was Cooper” thesis is that she takes the thinnest of subjective associations and daisy-chains them into what appears to be a strong link (in her mind at least).
As for me:
I don’t know if Collins/Weber was Cooper.
I don’t know if Gossett was Cooper.
I don’t know if McCoy was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Christiansen was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Barb Dayton was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I don’t know if Teddy Mayfield was Cooper (but I don’t think so).
I do know, however, that Jo Weber has so poorly presented her case for “Collins/Weber as Cooper” that she has prejudiced everyone, even the most open-minded (serious) investigator (including members of the FBI). The situation has now reached the point where everyone who truly wants to contribute to the solution of NORJAK, has taken a position of ignoring her incoherent ramblings or, in some cases become openly hostile toward her.
I have repeatedly asked Jo to turn her research and “evidence” over to a trusted (trustworthy) third party and allow them to review the material and then present the case for “Weber/Collins was Cooper” and/or make a statement that there is no evidence in the “evidence”.
She has repeatedly refused.
So, now, I would like to make another proposal (publically) to Jo:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jo,
Please turn your three or four suitcases of research and “evidence” over to a committee of serious NORJAK researchers to make a determination about John/Duane’s possible involvement in NORJAK. This action would restore some credibility while allowing you to be through with what you have described as a 13-year nightmare.
In this era (2009), your documents could be scanned and sent electronically to the committee members without you actually relinquishing the physical documents. You could choose to withhold some documents (but, they would not be placed into consideration by the committee).
My suggestions for members of the committee:
Absolutely first SafecrackingPLF
Second 377
And in no particular order:
Orange1
georger
quade (if he would agree)
1969912
Guru312 (if he has time)
happythoughts
TomKaye (I doubt he has the time, but he has an assistant who would do a good job)
Absolutely excluded (for reasons that will remain unstated):
Sluggo_Monster
JerryThomas
snowmman
skyjack71
Respectfully,
Sluggo_Monster
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will notice my recommendations for inclusion on the committee aren’t exactly my “circle of friends,” but I think they would give it a serious effort and provide a good balance to guarantee a fair outcome.
What do others think (especially if you were listed)?
Jo, what do you think? Be careful, your answer will say a lot about your “true” intentions here on DZ dot com.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
I am not blaming Jerry - and would never target Jerry. Mr. Himmelsbach was the one who suggested I talk to Jerry in 1997. Jerry told me the places did not exist and that I had no withesses in my exploration in WA. If he has been reading the forum lately he should now understand where these places are. As I said I do not know why Jerry was so adamant that the places did not exist - other than I was not able to get him to see the picture inside of my head...and I was disapppointed he was not the guide in 2001.
This crime is an old unsolved crime. Our law enforcement is currently so fragmented and with many different individuals involved in a crime investigation - along with the dependency of computers.
No one agent knew the whole picture enough to catch a critical lead when it appeared. This system works great on new crimes they apply the technology to, but an old crime like Cooper that speads clear across the continent - no one agent was able to grasp nor could the government afford for anyone agent to have become a "Cooper" expert.
Who is another one that knew the area from that time?
IF the FBI has proof Duane was not Cooper then why have they not revealed it to me? If there is something in Duane's records that says he is NOT Cooper then WHY has the FBI not revealed it? WHY do they make his records accessible to a priviledged few, but not to his widow?
If the FBI had any proof Weber was NOT Cooper they would have told me yrs ago just to get rid of me. RIGHT? What is happening now is NOT insignificant - if the FBI had this "proof" it would be unconscientable to withhold it.
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