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Orange1 0
QuoteOrange,
Did you know that little kids are flying in the tunnels now? 3 year olds are making me look very clumsy by comparison.
In a few short years your newborn can be showing you up.
I wonder if all these highly skilled tunnel flyer kids are going to push the US jump age down from 18 to 12 or even lower?
I think 12 year olds can certainly have the skills but I sure wonder about the judgment. My judgment at age 12 was... well... let me call it "in need of further development." At 18, when I started skydiving, it was still in need of further development but the fates were kind to me and I lived long enough to get a little less stupid. I jumped in my late teens with no altimeter because I was broke and could buy about ten jumps for the price of a used altimeter. Made perfect sense to me at the time.
I often wonder about Cooper's judgment. A simple bank robbery would have been a lot safer but few get more than $10K doing a stickup of tellers.
A guy was just arrested locally for pulling off about half a dozen bank robberies. I am sure Ckret knows all about the case. The robber was a former CEO, author and highly regarded guy. I guess he got in over his head and needed money fast.
I keep wondering what in Cooper's life caused such an intense need for big money that it justified taking such a huge risk. Gambling? Pending foreclosure? Divorce?
377
my elder child did some tunnel flying when she was 4
hey, if freefall skills was all it was, not (much) problem (yes i know you can kill yourself in freefall too but..) landing a canopy, you can't learn in an artificial environment. i wish you could. now how do you tell some skinny 12-year-old they can't fly a xaos 87 when they only weigh about 90lb...and they are invincible of course.
hm, your angle here is interesting. i once worked with someone that had a senior job, earning very decent money. one day he was arrested for embezling funds; he evidently needed more. (i seem to recall something to do with a divorce, it was a long time ago) intense need or...mayne just someone spotting a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity?
[that old test: how honest is someone when no-one else is around to see?]
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
nigel99 528
QuoteQuoteEd Huran, Horan, Hurand, Horand. Do not know whatthe Ed stood for . This man's history will put Duane in WA and in association with chutes.
Jo,
I dont doubt that Duane had some association with Washington and had an aircraft mechanic as a friend, but none of that links Duane with parachutes. Parachuting is a TINY subset of aviation. What makes you sure that Horan can link Duane to parachuting?
Put Duane in a chute or even an active jumpship/dropship prior to NORJACK and I will pay rapt attention. So far it is 100% speculation based on the evidence you have put forward.
377
I am pretty sure that I know a friend of a friend of Coopers
Just need to figure out the right question to ask http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separationExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
Orange1 0
QuoteI am pretty sure that I know a friend of a friend of Coopers
Just need to figure out the right question to ask http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation
get hold of Kevin Bacon...
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
Obviously lots of people knew Cooper. Since it is VERY hard for a large group of people to keep a secret as big as this one, I must conclude that they were unaware that the person they knew committed NORJACK.
Look at that med student who killed the prostitutes recently. He was known as the Craigs List Killer. NOBODY had him figured for the murderer. He was caught by cell records and hotel hall surveillance video tapes. None of his aquaintances would have ever figured it out.
DBC must have been someone who would never be thought of as a criminal by his friends and colleagues. As crazy as it seems, NORJACK may have been his first crime. It may also have been his first jump which would explain why nobody in the parachuting community figured out who he was.
377
Look at that med student who killed the prostitutes recently. He was known as the Craigs List Killer. NOBODY had him figured for the murderer. He was caught by cell records and hotel hall surveillance video tapes. None of his aquaintances would have ever figured it out.
DBC must have been someone who would never be thought of as a criminal by his friends and colleagues. As crazy as it seems, NORJACK may have been his first crime. It may also have been his first jump which would explain why nobody in the parachuting community figured out who he was.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Quote***QuoteLet me ask all of you reading this. Have you ever been lied to by a cop?
Only about 100 times even when they are testifying under oath.
So Bruce. What lie did a cop tell you and why did it affect your outlook so profoundly and permanently?Quote
The big one that sticks in my craw is the Mauck double homicide in Graham, WA, Nov.17, 2007.
I filed five pieces on the case before I was pulled off the story by my editors in response to police pressure.
If you'd like, I'll send you a synopsis.
georger 247
Effectively this states, if you have condition 72, then it means the money was [quickly covered and that layer did not erode and all deposits above that layer did erode]. If all that happened, then it means the layer that Palmer found was a pre 1971 dredge layer and not actually from 1974. If that was the case, then it means the 1974 layer did erode and the pre 1971 layer did not erode (effectively the older dredge layer was still there but the newer one was not). If this was the case, then it means Palmer got it wrong.
Inferential chains are good but are no more
reliable than the assumptions they rely on, as
I have already said above.
The rubber bands are telling a story. The fact they
were on Ingram's bundles in 1980 requires an
inferential chain which involves movement,
temeprature, protection, UV exposure or lack
of same, protection, and some mechanical-chemistry of the bands themselves. Those facts must be in place for any theory involving the bands to have validity.
The band remnants being in place in 1980 says more about movement and protection than it does band chemistry, because by 1980 band chemistry
had ceased to a decisive factor. (Originally band
degeneration probably took longer than 3 months
because of mitigating factors. Lab tests which placed
band lifetime at 3 months were very specific and not strictly duplicated in the Cooper situation).
By 1980 I think movement and protection are the
primary factors. 2 1/2 bundles were still in tact of some 300? original banded bundles?
How could 2 1/2 bundles move on their own very
far without being dismantled and destroyed at
any time between 1971-1980? (Not very far imho).
It makes more sense that the 2 1/1 bundles Ingram found were a surviving remnant of some earlier llarger amount of 'confined' bundles, whenever that confined block got to Tina Bar (in a bag or not in a
bag). And if fragments were found at 3 feet that
confirms the prior existence of a larger block of
money, perhaps a good share of the whole ransom moving as a block to Tina Bar ...... with only 2 1/2 bundles left by 1980.
It would make sense to try and determine 'surface deposition and erosion' out of Palmer's active upper
working layer under different scenarios. If, for example a block of the cash (in bag) goes to T-Bar
in 1978-79 can surface erosion alone account for
say 100 bundles (or 30 bundles) being reduced to
2 1/2 bundles + fragments by 1980? The answer is: probably not. For one thing 1978 was a dry year
with no flooding. More time is required.
How about 1975 - 1980? That seems more realistic
to me.
In addition, rather than looking to the dredging
in 1974 as an event which supplied money to Tina Bar, why not look at secondary effects of dredging
which might kick money lose from somewhere to
travel to Tina Bar soon after the dredging, on their
own?
There are many scenarios unexamined to date.
That's my point and my inferential chain.
QuoteMy problem with the Palmer report is the
lack of core sampling to establish a baseline but apparently Palmer didnt feel the need. Core sampling would have defined all strata in the area.
Palmer's judgement could be correct, but without
a baseline Palmer is open to question for having made an a-priori (no baseline) judgment.
None of this has anything to do with supporting theories but with simply trying to document Palmer's
conclusions in their own right regardless of any
theory.
In its simplest form, Palmer states the money was found above the 1974 dredge layer in a layer he
calls the 'active working layer' approx 3-8" deep. (see chart attached) This would be the uppermost layer subject to yearly seasonal fluctuation. The problem with that is money fragments were found
as deep as 3 feet, according to reliable witnesses,
and this places money in Palmer's 'clay lump dredge layer from 2-4ft down." Palmer doesn't mention
fragments at all in his report, but we know there
were fragments found during the excavation and
Ingram saw and found frgments in his original find.
Fragments are a fact of the money find and this
critical issue has never been addressed formally.
That is a glaring omission because it speaks directly
to the issue of how much money was originally at
Tina Bar, and it puts Ingram's find in context.
But we also know the strata at Tina Bar were not of
a uniform thickness. Palmer mentions this but does not define it, which is very odd for a professional geologist issuing a report to the FBI. Therefore, core samples would have been justified if only to build an accurate profile for Tina Bar itself in order to define
the money-find location itself.
You can't support any theory without accurate
stratigraphy data to work from.
------------------------------------------------------
Anyone want to put some relative odds on each of these scenarios?
Inferential chains are good but are no more
reliable than the assumptions they rely on, as
I have already said above.
The rubber bands are telling a story. The fact they
were on Ingram's bundles in 1980 requires an
inferential chain which involves movement,
temeprature, protection, UV exposure or lack
of same, protection, and some mechanical-chemistry of the bands themselves. Those facts must be in place for any theory involving the bands to have validity.
The band remnants being in place in 1980 says more about movement and protection than it does band chemistry, because by 1980 band chemistry
had ceased to a decisive factor. (Originally band
degeneration probably took longer than 3 months
because of mitigating factors. Lab tests which placed
band lifetime at 3 months were very specific and not strictly duplicated in the Cooper situation).
By 1980 I think movement and protection are the
primary factors. 2 1/2 bundles were still in tact of some 300? original banded bundles?
How could 2 1/2 bundles move on their own very
far without being dismantled and destroyed at
any time between 1971-1980? (Not very far imho).
It makes more sense that the 2 1/1 bundles Ingram found were a surviving remnant of some earlier llarger amount of 'confined' bundles, whenever that confined block got to Tina Bar (in a bag or not in a
bag). And if fragments were found at 3 feet that
confirms the prior existence of a larger block of
money, perhaps a good share of the whole ransom moving as a block to Tina Bar ...... with only 2 1/2 bundles left by 1980.
It would make sense to try and determine 'surface deposition and erosion' out of Palmer's active upper
working layer under different scenarios. If, for example a block of the cash (in bag) goes to T-Bar
in 1978-79 can surface erosion alone account for
say 100 bundles (or 30 bundles) being reduced to
2 1/2 bundles + fragments by 1980? The answer is: probably not. For one thing 1978 was a dry year
with no flooding. More time is required.
How about 1975 - 1980? That seems more realistic
to me.
In addition, rather than looking to the dredging
in 1974 as an event which supplied money to Tina Bar, why not look at secondary effects of dredging
which might kick money lose from somewhere to
travel to Tina Bar soon after the dredging, on their
own?
There are many scenarios unexamined to date.
That's my point and my inferential chain.
Lets play in the sand box for a couple of paragraphs. As a child did you ever notice how things move as you disturb the sand?
When you start to dig - some fragments of other materials seem to fall into the ditch or hole you are digging. For instance - glitter. Pour some glitter in the sand box and dig. What happens to the fragments of the glitter? They fall into the hole or the ditch as you dig.. I might not be making a good example of what I am trying to say in my elementary way.
Did any of you see (in a clip or pictures) the size of that equipment and the number of people and activitiy going on at the dig site? Take a back hoe and dig a trench - things from the surface dirt fall into the ditch or hole.
That is my stupid 2 cents worth.
Take some old crumbling bills and bury them and then try to dig them up after the sun and water have baked them for a few weeks. I have watched this action over and over even as an adult building sand castles and playing with the tide as it eroded my work of art.
Palmer probably took this into consideration as he was present at the dig, No one thought to make a note of something so simple - nor that the findings would be debated 29 yrs later. The explanation is possibly in the the dig its' self.
Perhaps he didn't mention the finding of the fragments as he considered it elementary and a process of contamination involving the digging.
Remember these guys are using shovels and ditch diggers - not the modern equipment that is available to day in such a dig site.
When you start to dig - some fragments of other materials seem to fall into the ditch or hole you are digging. For instance - glitter. Pour some glitter in the sand box and dig. What happens to the fragments of the glitter? They fall into the hole or the ditch as you dig.. I might not be making a good example of what I am trying to say in my elementary way.
Did any of you see (in a clip or pictures) the size of that equipment and the number of people and activitiy going on at the dig site? Take a back hoe and dig a trench - things from the surface dirt fall into the ditch or hole.
That is my stupid 2 cents worth.
Take some old crumbling bills and bury them and then try to dig them up after the sun and water have baked them for a few weeks. I have watched this action over and over even as an adult building sand castles and playing with the tide as it eroded my work of art.
Palmer probably took this into consideration as he was present at the dig, No one thought to make a note of something so simple - nor that the findings would be debated 29 yrs later. The explanation is possibly in the the dig its' self.
Perhaps he didn't mention the finding of the fragments as he considered it elementary and a process of contamination involving the digging.
Remember these guys are using shovels and ditch diggers - not the modern equipment that is available to day in such a dig site.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
quade 4
Jo makes a sort of good point here about the methodology of the dig although the "correct way" to dig for archeological artifacts hasn't changed much in the last 100 years or so and modern equipment certainly isn't the issue.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
georger 247
QuoteJo makes a sort of good point here about the methodology of the dig although the "correct way" to dig for archeological artifacts hasn't changed much in the last 100 years or so and modern equipment certainly isn't the issue.
Its very clear to me they weren't doing an archaeological dig but an excavation looking for money and Cooper artifacts ... they obviously were
in a race for some reason!
The issue of fragments goes directly to the question of
how much money was at Tina Bar.
And by the way: Palmer spells Tina Bar as "Tena
Bar" in all his documents.
It is obvious the socalled upper active layer varied
in thickness in the 'money' trench. Photo-1 supposedly shows the thickness of the post dredge layer at one
location in the money trench. Photo-2 shows a different thickness at another location in the same money trench.
If fragments were found at 3ft somewhere, in what
layer were they found (by who)?
Itis impossible for 2 1/2 bundles to have washed all the way from the Washougal to T-Bar and still be in tact as 2 1/2 bundles.
QuoteIt is impossible for 2 1/2 bundles to have washed all the way from the Washougal to T-Bar and still be in tact as 2 1/2 bundles.
Georger: This is exactly what I have said from get go when I didn't even know how far the Washougal was from the money find.
BUT]
It IS possible for more than 2 1/2 bundles placed in a paper sack thrown into the Columbia Sept of 1979 from the Portand Bridge in Vancouver and West of the PDX to wash to Tena's bar and leave 2 1/2 bundles intact.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 247
Quote
QuoteIt is impossible for 2 1/2 bundles to have washed all the way from the Washougal to T-Bar and still be in tact as 2 1/2 bundles.
Georger: This is exactly what I have said from get go when I didn't even know how far the Washougal was from the money find.
BUT]
It IS possible for more than 2 1/2 bundles placed in a paper sack thrown into the Columbia Sept of 1979 from the Portand Bridge in Vancouver and West of the PDX to wash to Tena's bar and leave 2 1/2 bundles intact.
Nope. Because there was more (perhaps way more) than 2 1/2 bundles at T-Bar to begin with. There wasnt enough money in Duane's sack to account
for what was at T-Bar and the sack you describe Duane using wasn't large enough to hold all of the money that probably was at Tina Bar, so you need
to now revise your description of Duane sack upwards
Erroll 80
Quote...revise your description of Duane's sack..
Carry on with that train of thought and before you know it this thread is in Bonfire!
1969912 0
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
QuoteNope. Because there was more (perhaps way more) than 2 1/2 bundles at T-Bar to begin with. There wasnt enough money in Duane's sack to account
for what was at T-Bar and the sack you describe Duane using wasn't large enough to hold all of the money that probably was at Tina Bar, so you need
to now revise your description of Duane sack upwards
"REALLY REALLY LOW"
I have said the largest it could be would be the size they use for a gallon of Ice Cream - that is the Max. It was near his right foot on the floor board. with the top folded over maybe 3 or 4 times. I did not see him throw it in the river nor did I see him secure it.
P.S. Don't forget the bucket he talked about not being able to find. Don't forget the cabin that wasn't there anymore. Don't forget his dig a few days earlier when he left me at the Dalles?
Don't forget there were 3 stops on the Columbia that day - the first one when he walked down to the river and was gone for a while removing and putting something in the trunk (we were just West of the airport, but on the Vancouver side). The second I was with him going to the river - to a loading area I have described before. The third time was the Red Lion and the pitching of the sack? Total time over 1 hr but less than 2.
Don't put ALL your EGGS in one basket. First we are making sense than we aren't - right this could be come a Cooper BON FIRE. Nahhh we want to know the truth - and not settle.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
Quote
QuoteIt is impossible for 2 1/2 bundles to have washed all the way from the Washougal to T-Bar and still be in tact as 2 1/2 bundles.
Georger: This is exactly what I have said from get go when I didn't even know how far the Washougal was from the money find.
BUT]
It IS possible for more than 2 1/2 bundles placed in a paper sack thrown into the Columbia Sept of 1979 from the Portand Bridge in Vancouver and West of the PDX to wash to Tena's bar and leave 2 1/2 bundles intact.
There you go again Jo...emphatically stating something as fact. Can you back up that statement please? Have you done the test, knowing that you are using the same type of paper sack? Bearing in mind you have already said you didn't see Duane either put anything in a sack or actually throw it in the river anyway.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
QuoteThere you go again Jo...emphatically stating something as fact.
I ddn't emphatically state anything - just reminding Georger that there were different times and ways the money got into the river.
Duane was watching the bag float down the river - I couldn't see it and I did look in the trash barrel at the hotel when we left - the bag wasn't in it. I just couldn't believe he would litter like that and I was scolding him. I have admitted I didn't know what was the in the bag.
All I was doing was doing what everyone else does - search for how and when the money got in the river. Yes, my suggestions are targeted at Duane and my time with him in OR and WA.
As a friend of Duane's said to me recently "We may never know the truth, but then we know". He feels there is an important part of the puzzle missing and/or part of Duane's life. My focus at this point is not proving Duane was Cooper - because in my heart I know...if he wasn't Cooper he sure as hell knew who was.
Much of the story about Duane could be a series of co-incidences, but what I held in my hands and saw with my own eye was very real - the ticket, the stub and the bag. I also find it difficult to believe that a man could spend 17 yrs staging a death bed confession, but then that is my opinion and the opinion of others who knew Duane personally.
Cooper is not my focus right now - uncovering Duane's past is now a pass time and to finalize the last few things. The books, the little girl pic, the SLC pic and the Huran pic and an AKA he lived under. When that is done - I will have done all I can do - the rest will take care of itself, but perhaps not in my life time.
The Huran seach is the most important to me along with the books and the pic...and the curious "mouse". Pieces of the past of Duane Weber or just items he borrowed in order to fabricate a past? I will probably never know.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
QuoteCooper is not my focus right now -
yes, but we are trying to keep it ours.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
QuoteQuoteCooper is not my focus right now -
yes, but we are trying to keep it ours.
Perhaps I didn't word that right. The focus of the thread is Cooper and since my husband confessed to being Dan Cooper, I am focusing on his life and connections to help me to put his confession aside or prove he was Cooper.
Geeze - you knew what I meant - and that due to my health - these last things were my focus, but it is relative to Cooper - and Weber. That it is resolution.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
With respect, Jo, how can I know what you mean if you don't say what you mean? Hard enough even in real life sometimes with non-verbal communication to aid. So no, I did not in fact "know what you meant".
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 247
QuoteWith respect, Jo, how can I know what you mean if you don't say what you mean? Hard enough even in real life sometimes with non-verbal communication to aid. So no, I did not in fact "know what you meant".
Who knows what any these fools MEAN. There is an endless supply of them. It has come to define the
whole media driven Cooper Googleplex.
BTW: Archie nows says I am a liar again and says
Cooper would only be in his sixties today "so why
would he surface to destroy his good life", Archie
says.
When you add up all the 'pecadilos' of all of the screwballs involved its no wonder why nothing
happens. A private company would be bankrupt
and collapse in 2 hours following this model! But that isnt going to change because there is nothing to
replace it - and if there was any replacement it would be attacked and destroyed in turn, just so 'somebody'
could get their night's sleep!
Some day very soon, the Cooper saga is going to take
on a brand new life - as the investigation that went wrong, rightly or wrongly. That is the next swing the media will take, inevitable. I could see Snowmman playing a large role in that with others in support
roles. It could get very messy.
But it cant go on forever. Sooner or later the corpse of Cooper will fall apart and rot.
There are some powerful forces gathering who claim
"not one truth" has been uttered in the whole Cooper
case to date. (These same people do not give Jo
Weber any credence at all, by the way) So we will have
to see what surfaces next. But a vacuum has formed
and will sweep something into it. The only questions
are when and how long and who, but I think its going
to be new voices ? Someone with some real credbility
for a change.
QuoteThere are some powerful forces gathering who claim
"not one truth" has been uttered in the whole Cooper
case to date. (These same people do not give Jo
Weber any credence at all, by the way) So we will have
to see what surfaces next. But a vacuum has formed
and will sweep something into it. The only questions
are when and how long and who, but I think its going
to be new voices ? Someone with some real credbility
for a change.
Isn't that what everyone has been waiting for? New voices and new information - that is why we are all here. I have said time and again if someone can prove Duane was not Cooper - I welcome it, but so far they haven't done that. I do know what I held in my hands - the ticket, the stub and bag.
I can repeat what he told me till I am blue in the face - and it would not change one iota. If these individual are saying "not one truth" has been uttered in the whole Cooper case - I guess that means the FBI also. Bet I know where that story is coming from.
There are individuals claiming the incident was planned by the FAA using a subversive and that several men on the plane where infact part of the plan. The idea is that the subversive was trained by a member of the crew - and the suppliers in order to bring about changes to prevent more hijackings. If this was true - who was the jumper? There are so many twists and turns in this it is ridculous.
As for giving Jo Weber credence - all I want is someone to explain what I hald in my onw hands and why one man spent 17 yrs planning a deathbed confession. As someone told me tonight - that is just not feasible. Pesonal friends and family contacted me about the Zodiac thing say that the real estate agent must have read my bio. I didn't know I had a bio.
Georger what about all the other individuals who have claimed someone was Cooper - Coffelt wsn't Cooper but he sure knew who was - want to bet on that one? I will place a $100. Coffelt was not physically able to do the jump and he got double crossed. If Tave is still alive I sure would love to talk to her. At least I have a witness who put Duane in Portland the night before the jump - how many can do that. I also have a witness that puts Duane and wife at a convention in WA. DC while he was SUPPOSED to be in prison. The witness helped her make her the dress she wore...made of silk bought in SanFrancisco and made in Arizona, The senario I have been told is that she was also involved with the government and the one who was supposed to keep her thumb on Duane.
That is just ONE of the stories I have bee told. Heres another a government man who was mad - except he also was too old to make the jump and used a subversive. Oswald tried to kill this same man before he killed Kennedy. A smart person could take all of this write 5 books on Cooper - each being better that the first - a series of Cooper Books - Come on give us a break,--how much is the public willing to accept about Cooper. Throw some time travel in to it now.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
so to cut a long story short you think someone had to have put the money there; it didn't get there by falling out the sky and being dragged along by water currents.
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