DB Cooper

[377 22]

Quote

georger,

Wouldn't you be surprised if ol' Safe worked on the data used in the Palmer Report (as a student)?

Do you know something Sluggo or is this just humor?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I am awaiting Jo's replies to my challenge. I just won't be swayed by any excuses for not publishing her findings.

377

NOTE:
I cannot divulge confidences and will not do so. These findings are not mine, but the work of many others devoted to bringing this to an end.

Point of interest:
McNeil Island Camp (prison).
Are any of you aware that in 1944 the prison was over crowded and they opened a camp - at Columbia, WA (wherever that is). Prisoners were evaluated by institution classification and prisoners (Eligible for Parole in One Day) were not placed into the McNeil population, but sent to this camp and other temporary camps.

Draft dodgers (among other as listed above) where housed in these temporary camps. The camps consisted of clearing land, cultivation, orchards, dairies, forestry and fire protection. Transfers where made with "special consideration" for utilization in these camps. This consideration included being transferred to camps outside of WA.

This mean nothing to any of you other than just trivial information, but remember that Duane's McNeil file read "Eligible for Parole in One Day". Of course the FBI did not know I had that information.

The prison destroys all individual work detail or assignment after 30 yrs......

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo,

OK. You say you have proof Duane was Cooper. Then you say you cannot post the evidence because it is confidential. So what is next? Does it remain confidential? Is someone waiting to publish it for profit? Where is this going Jo?

I always come to your defense here but this repeated teasing really tries my patience and your credibility.

Duane's eligibility for quick parole or even his assignment to a camp right on Cooper's estimated LZ does not put Duane on that NWA 727. FBI lies told to you do not put Duane on that 727 either. If you have something that puts Duane on that 727 just post it. Otherwise it's just the same old tease. Huge claims and no evidence, citing all sorts of reasons.

If investigators you hired found the evidence it is yours to disclose. If someone else found it why are they willing to tell you yet have it hidden from the public at large?

Public scutiny and peer review is the best way to sort out fact from fiction. Your secret proof is fiction to me until it is published, reviewed and verified.

I do worry that what you have isn't even proof. You make HUGE jumps in logic at times. I think that you sometimes equate FBI lies or misrepresentations with proof that Duane was Cooper.

You claim you can prove that Duane was Cooper. As they say in Cooper land: JUST DO IT.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

That post I made about 9 solutions had some assumptions built in. One of them had to do with layers in the sand. At the time, yourself along with others felt that it was highly likely that sand was eroding (and it is) and that it was also likely that the dredge layer itself eroded. I accounted for that in a few of the chains I wrote out.

The chains themselves aren't perfect, I put them together strictly as an academic exercise. You can make of it what you will.

If the money gets there in 1971/early 72, and the money was found at the surface, any sand including dredge layers deposited from that time to 1980 would have had to erode.

The layer that Palmer found in the sand would then have to be a pre-1971 layer and NOT the dredge layer like he thought.

I'll let you figure out why that must be true.

There's nothing illogical about it. And if you don't know what layer I'm talking about, go look at the picture of him pointing to the layer.

If it's a pre-1971 layer, then you must say that this layer (whenever it was formed) was able to remain on the beach without erosion, but that subsequent layers (ie, dredge) were not able to remain but washed away.

As to Palmer's report, I can only comment that his findings were reported on in the 80s. It's not as though they didn't exist or that he did not visit the site to give his professional opinion.

Where his report went, where it can be found today, well.... your guess is as good as mine.

Oh, and 377... thanks for the tips about my technique. I think a little more arch would add some stability, but also keep in mind that they turn DOWN the speed, so I have to flatten out some just to stay from the bottom.... they told me they'll boost the wind when I'm ready. And thanks for the props, I think most novices would reach for the door when trying to exit - and of course we know what that will do, so perhaps that's why they mess that part up?

[snowmman 3]

I have finished reading "Hunting The Jackal" by Billy Waugh.

During the read, I also read an online account by Don Valentine, that mentioned training with Billy Waugh.
http://www.don-valentine.com/1st%20Group%20and%20White%20Star.htm
Not sure what is strictly humor there, but you can read the rest of Don's stuff, to get an impression of Don.

I had many thoughts during the read of the book. I can say I never had the reaction that I've read in other reviews. I also didn't have the liberal reaction that Billy might say he'd expect from someone like me.

I guess my reaction was more that truth was not in that book. Sure it's accurate, but accuracy is not truth. Can't even be sure it's the truth as Billy perceives it. Maybe it is. If truth is about shooting and getting shot, maybe it is in the book.

In any case, I was surprised to see Billy answered my musings on Heroism, earlier in this thread, in his Afterword.

Billy provides his definition of heroism directly:

"To me, the essence of heroism is defined in Paragraph II of the U.S. Army Field Operations Order: "TO COMPLETE THE MISSION, [Ed. his caps] regardless of the enemy counteraction, and keep his men alive."

After listing his personal heroes, and their actions, Billy says:

"Heroes are made of men who stay focused in battle. Heroes are men who have a plan, and who understand the plan is everchanging and dependent on enemy action. Heroes are those who can adjust to a new plan and then execute that plan even when the enemy interferes with his intentions".

Billy was raised by his mother Lillian. No mention of any heroism on her part in the book. She could whip him good. His father wasn't there, died when he was 10. No mention of brothers or sisters.

And not related, but related, from another sewer hole on the 'net:

The strange interaction between Mrs. Billye Alexander and all the SF guys in the '60s. For some reason, they created this mythology of her as Guardian Angel. She was the clerk who handled the SF orders, deep in the bowels of the Pentagon.

They invited her down to Fort Bragg, and showed her around everything and took pictures. Pretty interesting.

On Youtube nowadays, you can see vids of bikini clad hot women shooting machine guns. Some find it quite erotic.

In that vein, I attach a pic of Mrs. Billye Alexander, in '60s hot mama role, firing a .50 cal machine gun at Fort Bragg. I would note that in all the pics, the men around her are smiling. Dinner picture also attached.

In case that didn't get your gun off, I also included Billye with a M-79, and a .30 cal. Of course, we all realize a M-79 is a single-shot, shoulder-fired, break-action grenade launcher which fires a 40x46mm grenade. (edit) Experts needed: the 2 pics seem to show something smaller than a modern M-79 ??? Even back then, an M-79 looked like this?
http://www.americans-working-together.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jack_1.jpg

I guess Billye A. died around '79 or so. Not sure of when exactly.

Oh, and apparently Billy W. didn't go work for the Post Office immediately after retiring. Not until '75. So 3 years doing who knows what after '72 retire.

His retirement ceremony involved a parachute jump into a US base (him) and beer (for everyone).

Oh: and were people aware of the history of 1st SFG (1st Special Forces Group, Airborne) at Fort Lewis? They have a nice memorial wall there. I don't think Billy W. had any involvement with that unit though. Not sure though.

Currently there is 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th SFG and also 19th and 20th National Guard, Special Forces Groups. (respectively at: Ft. Lewis, WA, Ft. Bragg, NC, Ft. Campbell, KY, Ft. Bragg, NC, Ft. Carson Colorado)

I'll leave a link here for georger, since I know he won't whack off to the pics of Billye A., but maybe he will reading this paper from back then:

http://www.sfalx.com/bourne/

The Billye A. porn pics were from here
http://sfac82.org/billyea.htm

(edit) added another 2 pics of Billye with the M-79, that more clearly shows the whole weapon. So I think that issue is resolved. She fired a M-79.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Jo,

OK. You say you have proof Duane was Cooper. Then you say you cannot post the evidence because it is confidential. So what is next? Does it remain confidential? Is someone waiting to publish it for profit? Where is this going Jo?

Jo,

I'm in total agreement with 377. You've been doing this for years. You need to either cough up some details, or stop posting your "teasers." If it's something that an author considers proprietary for use in a forthcoming book, either don't post it, or make a statement regarding the reason for the confidentiality. Best bet is don't post it at all.

Another thing - you claim that you don't share people's email addresses (like MINE) with others. BS. When you forward me political spam, you're sending my address to every recipient of the email. Some of those recipients then forward the email to others, and so on, so you may be sharing my email address with hundreds of people. STOP!

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

I want a picture of Jo shooting a .50 cal.
Attire is at her discretion.
She owes us.

[georger 244]

Quote

That post I made about 9 solutions had some assumptions built in. One of them had to do with layers in the sand. At the time, yourself along with others felt that it was highly likely that sand was eroding (and it is) and that it was also likely that the dredge layer itself eroded. I accounted for that in a few of the chains I wrote out.

If the money gets there in 1971/early 72, and the money was found at the surface, any sand including dredge layers deposited from that time to 1980 would have had to erode.

The layer that Palmer found in the sand would then have to be a pre-1971 layer and NOT the dredge layer like he thought.

I'll let you figure out why that must be true.

There's nothing illogical about it. And if you don't know what layer I'm talking about, go look at the picture of him pointing to the layer.

If it's a pre-1971 layer, then you must say that this layer (whenever it was formed) was able to remain on the beach without erosion, but that subsequent layers (ie, dredge) were not able to remain but washed away.

As to Palmer's report, I can only comment that his findings were reported on in the 80s. It's not as though they didn't exist or that he did not visit the site to give his professional opinion.

Where his report went, where it can be found today, well.... your guess is as good as mine.
reply]

My quarel with Palmer is his lack of core sampling
which would have provided a baseline (going back decades) for his labeling of strata 71-80. Core
sampling was not done - Palmer's colleagues state.

Palmer specifically chose not to waste time doing
core sampling - he thought it unecessary relying
instead on his long experience and expertise in
the area of beach strata dynamics gained over 30+ years. Palmer's colleagues still alive support this
interpretation of how Palmer conducted the work
at Tina Bar. Palmer's report to the FBI dated 2/14/80 states something like:

'Geologist Palmer advises that he found the beach area in the vicinity where the money was found to be in approximately four different layers. The layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer and below that an older sand layer. The upper layer consisted. of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money. This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged and/or rusted. This uppermpost layer is what I shall later describe as the 'upper active working layer' because it is most recent in aquisition showing signs of both acquisition and erosion, in the near term. The post dredging sand layer under the upper active working layer contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other older rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition indicative of their age compared to the upper active
working layer. "

[Georger posted a strata chart as per the above] All
of this has been posted before by several people.

In addition to no core sampling, Palmer did not
resort to chemical analysis either, in distinguishing strata.

Palmer relied on his experience and saw nothing
at Tina Bar which moved him to a more indepth
analysis.

One later minor report by _________ characterised Palmer's clay-lump dredge layer as having a bluish tint, said to be characteristic of dredging silt.

Palmer's report does not mention "any" pre-1971 layer or strata, dredge or otherwise (which core sampling would have revealed).

Palmer's report does not mention any "erosional" effects being a sigificiant factor at Tina Bar below
the upper active working layer. (Again core sampling would have helped clarify erosional issues).

Palmer's report does not address the issue of
erosion or slumping in the 1974 dredge layer(s)
at all. Pending other evidence like core sampling,
it is safe to assume Palmer did not believe the 74
dredge layer had eroded significantly and that what he found and identified as the 74 dredge layer was that, and no other layer.... all based on Palmer's
personal experience in Columbia beach strata
and dredging layers he had worked with and identified many times over many years.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Georger:

Way back when, when Ckret was trying to be a good liar, he said he couldn't release any FBI investigative product.

Yet you've released stuff that was obviously the result of FBI interviews with the Ingrams.

And now you're releasing new info from the FBI that we've always asked for, i.e. stuff about whether other debris was found on the beach.

And Tom the Trigger Man evidently got access to FBI investigative product, that others didn't.

How do I resolve all this? The only resolution that makes sense to me is to say Larry is a liar.

Is there an alternative explanation?

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger:

Way back when, when Ckret was trying to be a good liar, he said he couldn't release any FBI investigative product.

Yet you've released stuff that was obviously the result of FBI interviews with the Ingrams.

And now you're releasing new info from the FBI that we've always asked for, i.e. stuff about whether other debris was found on the beach.

And Tom the Trigger Man evidently got access to FBI investigative product, that others didn't.

How do I resolve all this? The only resolution that makes sense to me is to say Larry is a liar.

Is there an alternative explanation?

Attend the next conference (Jerry reported on
months back), go to Seattle and search the records
as Tom etc did, form an investigative panel for some aspect of the case and get approved, etc.

I suppose it would toast your grits to find
out there are other panels!

You really don't get out much do you?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo,

OK. You say you have proof Duane was Cooper. Then you say you cannot post the evidence because it is confidential. So what is next? Does it remain confidential? Is someone waiting to publish it for profit? Where is this going Jo?

I always come to your defense here but this repeated teasing really tries my patience and your credibility.

Duane's eligibility for quick parole or even his assignment to a camp right on Cooper's estimated LZ does not put Duane on that NWA 727. FBI lies told to you do not put Duane on that 727 either. If you have something that puts Duane on that 727 just post it. Otherwise it's just the same old tease. Huge claims and no evidence, citing all sorts of reasons.

If investigators you hired found the evidence it is yours to disclose. If someone else found it why are they willing to tell you yet have it hidden from the public at large?

Public scutiny and peer review is the best way to sort out fact from fiction. Your secret proof is fiction to me until it is published, reviewed and verified.

I do worry that what you have isn't even proof. You make HUGE jumps in logic at times. I think that you sometimes equate FBI lies or misrepresentations with proof that Duane was Cooper.

You claim you can prove that Duane was Cooper. As they say in Cooper land: JUST DO IT.

377

377:

Your profiles says you are an attorney, right? So think about the 2 statements below.

The Dream Team has not revealed their information - that is all confidential until it airs. WHY should what we have acquired be treated any differently...we are entited to have time to compile our evidence and our case just as the Dream Team did.

Attorneys trying to win a case - do not disclose their closings or expose the vulnerabilities of the accused until it is TIME. They do toy with the witnesses on the opposing side and more affirmative with the witnesses on their side.
-------------------------------------


Georger stated:

Quote

Attend the next conference, go to Seattle and search the records
as Tom etc did, form an investigative panel for some aspect of the case and get approved, etc.

Georger, if it was so easy to get into the files with a panel then why have my guys had to dig out what we found on our own. Would be nice to know if the FBI files have supporting evidence that is in harmony with the things we have found. I

I think the public with agree we deserve fair access with this and I have informed those working on my behalf of your statements. They will be addressing the FBI in the next few wks...to find out if that access is available.

It would be mighty kind of you to post the proceedure for such access to the files. The FBI didn't even allow me access to my own husband"s file.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Quote

377:

Your profiles says you are an attorney, right? So think about the 2 statements below.

The Dream Team has not revealed their information - that is all confidential until it airs. WHY should what we have acquired be treated any differently...we are entited to have time to compile our evidence and our case just as the Dream Team did.

Jo,

I don't cut the so called Dream Team any slack for operating in secrecy, BUT THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE: You made a big conclusory claim, that you had found proof that Duane was Cooper. The Dream Team just runs in stealth mode, no claims, no nothing. I don't like their secrecy and preferential access to FBI data, but they have escaped the wrath of 377 because they haven't made huge unsupported claims. YOU, on the other hand, HAVE MADE A HUGE CLAIM which if true ends the case. All I am asking you to do is publish your evidence. I have criticized your tease tactics over and over yet you persist. Fortunately 377 remains calm and tolerant and does not lash out, at least not yet. You really test the limits of my tolerance however.

Quote

Attorneys trying to win a case - do not disclose their closings or expose the vulnerabilities of the accused until it is TIME. They do toy with the witnesses on the opposing side and more affirmative with the witnesses on their side.

Jo,

First of all you have been watching too many court TV shows. Go watch a real jury trial. Was Duane ever tried or did he always just cop a guilty plea to a lesser charge?

In the opening statements the lawyers tell the jury what the evidence will show AND THEN THEY PRESENT IT IN THE CASE. They don't say "trust me, I can't show you the evidence now, it is confidential but everything I said in my opening statement is true."

It is TIME, right now. You made your claim so show your evidence. You make a huge claim which if true ends the case, claim you have evidence to back it up and then decline to present it. If you were in front of a jury you would be crucified Jo.

You give yourself away in this statement:

"They do toy with the witnesses on the opposing side..."

Teasing, toying, cat and mouse... it's what you do here. You must get something out of it to continue it in the face of overwhelming negative reaction. Just cut it out and put your Cooper cards on the table.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 471]

Quote

I am awaiting Jo's replies to my challenge. I just won't be swayed by any excuses for not publishing her findings.

If you fear government control of information Jo the best thing to do is expose everything. No PMs, no private dialogues, not until you put forward your evidence. Tyranny loves secrecy.

Big claims (Duane was definitely Cooper) and no proof is just a tease Jo. You need to do a lot better than that. Air it out.

377

I think it is time we started betting on whether Jo will ever stump up On seconds thoughts the odd's are probably to high I put it at the chance of her providing "proof" that is not based in some tenuous link at about 0.

Perhaps if we all bet a dollar this bank will provide the winnings http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8152278.stm after all $23 quadrillion should just about cover it

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I want to make STRONG statement here.

1st the obligatory disclaimer:

The following post does not represent the interest of Dropzone.com, Edge West Productions, Tom Kaye (and his associates), or the Federal Bureau of Investigation (AKA the FBI). Statements contained herein are the OPINIONS of Sluggo_Monster (Sluggo) and N467US.com, who are solely responsible for their content.


Jo said:

Quote

The Dream Team has not revealed their information - that is all confidential until it airs.

There may be a lot of confusion here and maybe I can help clarify the issue(s).

The “Dream Team” (a term that they resent, by the way) is not releasing any information in conjunction with the National Geographic documentary. The research they are conducting will be release through some (hopefully refereed) scientific publication. They will release information (publish) when and only when they have proven any and all hypotheses that they have investigated. THERE IS NO TIME SCHEDULE related to subsequent publication. A path (hypotheses) taken early-on in the investigation was not supported by the data. The Edge West crew decided to feature them based on what THEY expected the outcome to be, but the science didn’t support their expectations. I think the average “DB Cooper Case (NORJAK) follower” will be disappointed with any publication of the team. It will be a very intense examination of some really minute aspects. There research may, indeed, contribute to the solution of NORJAK, but they will not “solve” the case. It will be up to the FBI to use their findings to help with a solution. It has been said that Tom, the team, and Agent Carr have “gone dark.” That is a perception that the folks saying that have. Agent Carr and the Sci-Team are behaving as professionals, no more, no less.

Edge West Productions, has produced many TV documentaries, some very serious and some that are “fringe/tinfoil-hat” in nature. The creative effort was sincere, but alias, (as you have heard me say before) they too, have bosses (the bean counters). My fear is that the final product will be so “dumbed-down” as to be very disappointing to the regular posters on this forum. The upside is; it will introduce the case to many thousands of young people who have never heard of NORJAK. If you are looking forward to the Nat-Geo program because you think there is going to be some “GREAT REVELATION” presented there, get over it! It ain’t gonna happen! I was consulted by the director on several occasions, but the discussions centered on the “DB Cooper CULTURE” not the NORJAK case (they had Agent Carr for that.

The FBI (in Seattle) has a Public Information (read Relations) Officer, to my knowledge that person is currently Robbie Burroughs. If any confidential information was being released in would have to have been approved by her (and others). I don’t think that has happened. If any group or individual wants access to the files (of the nature granted the Sci-Team), I would suggest you start with Agent Burroughs. (Lot’s of luck
In summary, there will be no great disclosures in the Nat-Geo program being aired next Sunday.

If you are waiting for some info from the Sci-Team, grab an old, cold ‘tater and go sit in the corner.

Professionals behave like the professionals they are, get over it! They don't work for you!

The most I am expecting from the Nat-Geo piece is the best depiction of the jump yet shown.

Everyone take your shots now, ‘cause I’m going out to the “Badlands” for a weekend of R&R.


Respectfully (even if it doesn’t seem so),

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Attend the next conference (Jerry reported on
months back), go to Seattle and search the records
as Tom etc did, form an investigative panel for some aspect of the case and get approved, etc.

I suppose it would toast your grits to find
out there are other panels!

You really don't get out much do you?

Ok, thanks for the explanation, georger.
My reading of your post is that there's a process to be followed, and if you follow the process, you get access. Otherwise you don't.

Actually, you're correct, I haven't got out much.

(edit) And the process, surprisingly, doesn't involve sex, drugs or money. I guess that's what caused doubts in me. The process doesn't make sense. Are you sure there's no money involved?

[snowmman 3]

"The most I am expecting from the Nat-Geo piece is the best depiction of the jump yet shown."

I suppose a non-jumper would have a good idea of what "the best depiction of the jump" might be like!

How will we know it's the best depiction?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

trollmman,

It won't be a daylight jump.

It will correspond with the witness testimony.

I will like it better than the others I've seen.

Did you not see the word "OPINIONS" in my disclaimer?


Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

"A path (hypotheses) taken early-on in the investigation was not supported by the data."

Can this be reworded to say that a hypothesis has been proven wrong?
If so, why not publish that? Why keep good info about a failed hypothesis secret?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

trollmman,

It won't be a daylight jump.

It will correspond with the witness testimony.

I will like it better than the others I've seen.

Did you not see the word "OPINIONS" in my disclaimer?


Sluggo

I've found, that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll.

Was that your intent, or other?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Georger,

If you've seen the report, then it takes a lot of uncertainty out of the logic chain and pretty much reinforces it.

If I read your argument correctly, your primary issue is that Palmer didn't take a core sample and do chemical analysis to absolutely positively figure out what layer was what. Is your complaint regarding our inability to go back now, look at a varve, and identify the same layers he was looking at? If that's not it, I'm not quite sure I follow what the complaint would be.

If someone asks me to get around the race track in under two minutes, I say.. sure, no problem. I use an automatic and go around the track. Then 30 years later some guy gets mad that I didn't use my shifter cart to get around the track in 35 seconds. There was no reason to do so, I was fully capable of the task doing it the way I did.

If your argument is that Palmer may have screwed up simple stratigraphy, then sure, that's a valid argument. But there are other factors that can give you an idea if he was accurate or not.

If you believe the money arrived at that place shortly after the crime, then you also believe the strata (blue-ish described in your summary) was a pre-71 layer, and etc etc. If your summary of the report isn't just your own making and somewhat accurately reports the findings, then there's a lot in there to suggest that the money did not arrive at that spot anywhere near the crime, but rather quite some time after it.

That's the bottom line: when did the money get there?

[snowmman 3]

Some early 1992 Triggerman footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTlg1j1tVU&feature=related

see 2:36 for good example.

My reaction was mostly "What happened to 'one shot, one kill' ?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

This mean nothing to any of you other than just trivial information,

It's all trivial, until the day you show proof.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[chutebuilder 0]

i agree with 377.....shit or get off the can

[Orange1 0]

Quote

The Dream Team has not revealed their information -

Neither have they spent 2 years (or whatever it's been) posting teasers, leaps of logic and fanciful conspiracy theories here...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger,

If you've seen the report, then it takes a lot of uncertainty out of the logic chain and pretty much reinforces it.

If I read your argument correctly, your primary issue is that Palmer didn't take a core sample and do chemical analysis to absolutely positively figure out what layer was what. Is your complaint regarding our inability to go back now, look at a varve, and identify the same layers he was looking at? If that's not it, I'm not quite sure I follow what the complaint would be.

If someone asks me to get around the race track in under two minutes, I say.. sure, no problem. I use an automatic and go around the track. Then 30 years later some guy gets mad that I didn't use my shifter cart to get around the track in 35 seconds. There was no reason to do so, I was fully capable of the task doing it the way I did.

If your argument is that Palmer may have screwed up simple stratigraphy, then sure, that's a valid argument. But there are other factors that can give you an idea if he was accurate or not.

If you believe the money arrived at that place shortly after the crime, then you also believe the strata (blue-ish described in your summary) was a pre-71 layer, and etc etc. If your summary of the report isn't just your own making and somewhat accurately reports the findings, then there's a lot in there to suggest that the money did not arrive at that spot anywhere near the crime, but rather quite some time after it.

That's the bottom line: when did the money get there?

I just like core sampling. Im funny that way. Old
school. Core samples tend to nail everything down
especially when the job at hand is the identification of
a niche - I dont like orphan niches especially when
you know there are going to be question surface later (inevitably) as Palmer must have known. I said core samples, plural. Not just one. Presumably no spoil samples were kept from the whole excavation. I find
that peculiar also. I dont know if core sampling done
today would be of much value given the disturbed nature of the beach. If it were me I probably would
do core sampling today, but nobody else seems to agree. Curiosity is just my nature.

Fragments: Fragments of money at Tina Bar was/is
a fact. This speaks to the volume of money originally
there. That in turn can speak to a number of issues.
Some estimate of total volume should have been made. That was not done to my knowledge. Likewise
fragments is not defined by Palmer. Location & Depth of fragments found is not identified. This is crucial
evidence that was passed over ... by a geologist who
does not seem to be thinking 'forensics' at all times.

I keep praying thje FBI has something specific on
"Fragments". I fear they do not. Core sampling at
depth might even today restore some of that missing
evidence. It's a long shot. I consider the Fragments
that were found distributed at Tina Bar as big a story
(if not bigger) than the bundles of bills themselves.
Once Fragments were found at T-Bar the whole beach
should have been secured and people kept out,
followed by an effort made to examine distribution of fragments. That would have addressed key questions
including direction of arrival. Maybe this was done
and I just dont know about it. I find no record of
this having been done, and Larry could not find any
record of this kind either... we presume the effort
was not made.

Haste: A number of people have stated the work at
Tina Bar was done in haste. I dont know what compelled that, if this is the case. The time element
alone may account for the techniques Palmer opted
to use vrs. techniques he did not employ or thought
unnecessary.

History: Tina Bar was a high traffic area populated
by cows during part of its history. The existence of
cows and the fate of the money may be tied. There
was no historical account given, to my knowledge,
which explained the multi-use nature of the the sandbar with respect to the Cooper money. The
Fazio's, however, have given their account of when
and from where they think the money arrived.

These are just a few of the issues I see active -

Rubber Bands: Let me add this. The figure
[< or = ] 3 months was never suggested as a hard
and fast clock, by anyone. It is an approximate value
based on very specific 'stress' tests the maker
conducted in his lab. The manufacturer still has bands from the same period and a nearly identical lot which have been stored in cool dry conditions and are almost as viable as the day they were made. So temperture,
UV exposure, etc play a big role in band deterioration.
This is rather well defined chemistry. The fact band
pieces were still in place on Ingram bundles is very
significant. But the clock, les than or equal to 3
months, is probably not appropriate in this case
and tells its own story. I hope that clears that up.




[edit]: If I was a phD student at Portland State or
wherever and looking for a thesis topic, I would be
all over this! This is an excellent phD thesis waiting
to happena dn I hope somebody reads this and takes it seriously!!

Thanks to Sluggo for his "very fine excellent"
summary of the socalled Dream Team's status,
its original mandate vis-a-vis the FBI, et cetera.

Im just speaking for myself here but I appreciate
Sluggo writing what he did.