DB Cooper

[377 22]

Wonder if there is something to learn here that might be relevant to Cooper, i.e. a link between extreme combat and antisocial behavior upon return to the US? I know, this is anectdotal, but still interesting...

IN THE NEWSPAPERS THIS MORNING:

The Army launched an investigation after soldiers from the 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division—nicknamed the Lethal Warriors—were accused in a spate of five killings around Colorado Springs, home to Fort Carson, in 2007 and 2008.

Six other slayings involving unit soldiers occurred in Colorado and other states since 2005.

The report called for more study on the links between combat and aggressive behavior. It suggested the Army find a way to identify soldiers who have been exposed to fierce combat.

Army investigators compared the Fort Carson unit of about 3,700 soldiers with a similarly sized unit and found it suffered more combat deaths in Iraq and was deployed there longer.

Investigators focused on the cases of 14 soldiers accused of murder, manslaughter, attempted murder and aggravated assault, mostly with firearms. They found the accused had experienced heavy combat in Iraq and that half of those interviewed reported witnessing war crimes, including the killing of civilians.

Back home, the soldiers carried weapons with them because they felt "naked" and unsafe and had difficulty transitioning to civilian life. Some said they felt "weird" and didn't fit in, the Army report said.

"There, we were the law; here, the cops are the law," one of the accused told investigators.

The Army report says the accused claimed their commanders and fellow soldiers did not encourage them to seek help at home.

Army West Division Commander Maj. Gen. Mark Graham was at Fort Carson Wednesday and was expected to comment on the report.

Nationally, at least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed a killing in the United States or been charged in one.

The 4th BCT experienced a combat death rate of 8.9 per 1,000 soldiers during a first Iraq deployment and 9.6 per 1,000 on a second deployment. In comparison, the other, unidentified unit had death rates of 0.4 and 2.1 per 1,000, respectively.

The Army task force recommended better training for commissioned and noncommissioned officers to manage soldiers with behavioral problems and ensure soldiers who seek help aren't humiliated or belittled.

The Colorado slayings include the June 6, 2008, deaths of a man and a woman gunned down by a man with AK-47 assault rifle as they put up garage sale signs on a street.

Pfc. Jomar Dionisio Falu-Vives faces first-degree murder charges in the shootings. He lived nearby and told friends he liked hearing the sirens as authorities raced to the scene, according to the Army report.

Falu-Vives also faces attempted murder charges in the wounding of an Army captain shot twice while standing at an intersection.

In May, Thomas Woolly, a Fort Carson soldier and Purple Heart recipient, was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in the slaying of a 19-year-old woman. Woolly was in Fort Carson's Warrior Transition Unit, which provides support for soldiers returning from combat who were injured or have psychiatric disorders.

The spate of killings prompted then-U.S. Sen. Ken Salazar, now interior secretary, to ask the Army last year to investigate the killings.

Investigators also found that hospitalization rates for soldiers at Fort Carson were up to seven times higher than for the Army as a whole.

In 2007, the Fort Carson hospitalization rate was 70 soldiers per 10,000, compared to about eight per 10,000 throughout the Army. That rate has increased steadily since 2004; Iraq combat began in March 2003.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I will like it [National Geo Cooper jump depiction] better than the others I've seen.

So have you seen it already Sluggo or are you just a sunny optimist?

They should have hired the special effects person who did the heroine's bailout scene in the movie STEALTH. That was pretty cool even though they took some artistic license to ignore Newton's laws when it made for better graphics.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

trollmman,

It won't be a daylight jump.

It will correspond with the witness testimony.

I will like it better than the others I've seen.

Did you not see the word "OPINIONS" in my disclaimer?


Sluggo

I've found, that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll.

Was that your intent, or other?

I am the only person on this forum who has actually earned a living trolling. Sluggo can call me a trollman and no offense will be taken.


What is all this stuff about the "CULTURE" around NORJACK? What is meant by that? Examples?

I am a lot more interested in whodunnit than the culture. I think I remember the culture of the early 70s. I didnt take enough drugs to erase the memories.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Some early 1992 Triggerman footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTlg1j1tVU&feature=related

see 2:36 for good example.

My reaction was mostly "What happened to 'one shot, one kill' ?

Is it just me or does this paintball combat stuff look kinda dull? Maybe it is more exciting in real life than on video. Skydiving, snowboarding, rock climbing and even tunnel flying all look pretty cool on video, but this paintball stuff... meh...

I have a bad reaction to civilians all decked out in cammo. Local police SWAT teams wear it which is just absurd.

I have read some of Tom "Kaye's" paintball mechanism patent publications. He is a clever mechanical designer in my opinion. He may not have the degrees, but he seems to be one of those guys who can do lots of different things. He seems to have respect in the paintball world.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I am over-come with JOY and the sense that my struggle was NOT for NOTHING. Duane L. Weber aka John C. Collins WAS DAN COOPER. I will come back and make my corrections I am crying so hard, but they are HAPPY Tears. I need to go get some cigarettes (had been quiting) to calm myself down. The evidence just fell right out of the sky - OMG!.

It is Finally over! Hopefully Quade will leave the thread open for the ending or if he does shut it down he will himself make a finally admendment to the thread - telling what will become public in the near future.

OK Jo, you specifically asked Quade to keep the forum open for the ending. When might we expect it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Unfortunately what they did and what they could have done were two different things. I happen to agree with you regarding marking precisely where fragments were found.

It could clear up a lot of confusion and more importantly could reveal some clues as to how this all went down.

The 3 month deal on the rubber bands was never a major determinant to me - although I used that number as one of the assumptions. The point is, they can't be out in the elements indefinitely without withering.

Even if it took a year to weather, you're looking at one of two possibilities. 1. money arrived at the bar before they weathered, or 2. the money was housed in some manner as to extend the life of the bands.

I happen to believe #2.

One scenario I didn't write out a chain for was the whole bag housing the money for say 7 or so years before releasing the bills. Such a chain could easily be added to the others.

One might be able to argue this was possible [of course without actually running an experiment to prove it's possible], but even so it requires several other variants to also hold true simultaneously, each of which is a huge leap in odds. It's the primary reason I personally don't believe it happened that way, but who am I to say that this wasn't 1 in a trillion where everything went haywire at the same time.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I don’t have much time, I’m in Centennial, CO (South of Ft. Carson, and haven’t been shot at even once). I’m on my way to the badlands for some R&R. But I just had to see what was going on in the “Zoo.”


Snowmman said:

Quote

I've found that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll. Was that your intent, or other?

I called you trollmman (with 2 Ms) because that is my perception. It had nothing to do with my argument, but rather my musing that you responded in the manner I expected. It didn’t mater what I posted; your response would have been similar. That’s as much a part of your personality as my “Died-in-the-wool Southerner act" is part of mine.

I think you are smart. I like people who truly “get it” in regard to the bond between humans and canines. I think you must be a brave person (after seeing the ice-climbing pics). You sure know your stuff when it comes to contesting (Ham Radio). I also think you are a troll. Live with it… Embrace it… Perfect it… BUT DON’T, FOR ONE MINUTE, THINK IT WILL WIN AN ARGUMENT OR CHANGE AN OPINION! The best you can hope for is some redneck will call you trollmman (with 2 Ms).


377 said:

Quote

So have you seen it already Sluggo or are you just a sunny optimist?

I have not seen it, but I know how much effort for realism was put into it (realism in regard to witness testimony and cinematography). I may be disappointed, myself.

377 also said:
What is all this stuff about the "CULTURE" around NORJACK? What is meant by that? Examples?

Things like:
Of the people who have really studied NORJAK, what percentage (in your opinion) thinks Cooper died? How many think it was an inside (NWA) job? What do you think makes so many people have such a strong interest in a 37 year old crime? Do the “Cooper Freaks” (my term, not Phil’s) usually follow other crime issues and post on other crime threads? …etc.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

On the other hand, an alternate point of view would be what I've long accepted: There is no argument to win here. i.e. the experience is all there is...i.e. no goal or endpoint.

Talking about your point of view being implicit...
maybe we just always condition anything with syad and thesaptabhangi
"in some ways it is"
"in some ways it is not"
"in some ways it is and it is not"
"in some ways it is and it is indescribable"
"in some ways it is not and it is indescribable"
"in some ways it is, it is not and it is indescribable"
"in some ways it is indescribable"

If you're got me figured out and can predict my responses, why do you even bother posting to me, or answering anything I post?

In my version of the forum, my posts make sense.
In your version, with goal-oriented, argument-winning as a metric and expected motivation for others, why bother with my posts at all? What goal does that service for you?

On the one hand you argue "low value" for me, but on the other hand your actions say something else.

Isn't this the standard thing men accuse women of? i.e. say one thing but mean another? (while in actuality, men do it all the time, they just want women to follow the men rules for how it's done)

[georger 244]

Quote

Unfortunately what they did and what they could have done were two different things. I happen to agree with you regarding marking precisely where fragments were found.

It could clear up a lot of confusion and more importantly could reveal some clues as to how this all went down.

The 3 month deal on the rubber bands was never a major determinant to me - although I used that number as one of the assumptions. The point is, they can't be out in the elements indefinitely without withering.

Even if it took a year to weather, you're looking at one of two possibilities. 1. money arrived at the bar before they weathered, or 2. the money was housed in some manner as to extend the life of the bands.

I happen to believe #2.

One scenario I didn't write out a chain for was the whole bag housing the money for say 7 or so years before releasing the bills. Such a chain could easily be added to the others.

One might be able to argue this was possible [of course without actually running an experiment to prove it's possible], but even so it requires several other variants to also hold true simultaneously, each of which is a huge leap in odds. It's the primary reason I personally don't believe it happened that way, but who am I to say that this wasn't 1 in a trillion where everything went haywire at the same time.

Do you think core sampling at T-Bar would still be
worthwhile? Are you still in WA? I could coax JT to
help ... but only under your direction! Jerry
tends to get lost in open spaceswould be appreciated ...

The fragment issue. The fragment field. Maybe that
can of worms needs to be re-opened. There
are former associates of Palmer's still living and
others who were personal witnesses. Tosaw also
had his own list of people he spoke with.

Let me work on this into the weekend.

[georger 244]

Quote

I don’t have much time, I’m in Centennial, CO (South of Ft. Carson, and haven’t been shot at even once). I’m on my way to the badlands for some R&R. But I just had to see what was going on in the “Zoo.”


Snowmman said:

Quote

I've found that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll. Was that your intent, or other?

I called you trollmman (with 2 Ms) because that is my perception. It had nothing to do with my argument, but rather my musing that you responded in the manner I expected. It didn’t mater what I posted; your response would have been similar. That’s as much a part of your personality as my “Died-in-the-wool Southerner act" is part of mine.

I think you are smart. I like people who truly “get it” in regard to the bond between humans and canines. I think you must be a brave person (after seeing the ice-climbing pics). You sure know your stuff when it comes to contesting (Ham Radio). I also think you are a troll. Live with it… Embrace it… Perfect it… BUT DON’T, FOR ONE MINUTE, THINK IT WILL WIN AN ARGUMENT OR CHANGE AN OPINION! The best you can hope for is some redneck will call you trollmman (with 2 Ms).


377 said:

Quote

So have you seen it already Sluggo or are you just a sunny optimist?

I have not seen it, but I know how much effort for realism was put into it (realism in regard to witness testimony and cinematography). I may be disappointed, myself.

377 also said:
What is all this stuff about the "CULTURE" around NORJACK? What is meant by that? Examples?

Things like:
Of the people who have really studied NORJAK, what percentage (in your opinion) thinks Cooper died? How many think it was an inside (NWA) job? What do you think makes so many people have such a strong interest in a 37 year old crime? Do the “Cooper Freaks” (my term, not Phil’s) usually follow other crime issues and post on other crime threads? …etc.

I could see 377 as a regular on Letterman!

[377 22]

Quote

Of the people who have really studied NORJAK, what percentage (in your opinion) thinks Cooper died?

17%

Quote

How many think it was an inside (NWA) job?

2%

Quote

What do you think makes so many people have such a strong interest in a 37 year old crime?

It has all the thrill and intrigue of a James Bond fiction novel, yet it really happened. The identity of the hero/villain Cooper remains a complete mystery as does his post jump fate. The unsolved nature of the caper beckons to a wide cross section of people eager to solve the enduring puzzle.

Quote

Do the “Cooper Freaks” (my term, not Phil’s) usually follow other crime issues and post on other crime threads? …etc.

Nope. All Cooper all the time. No time for lesser criminal matters.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Thanks 377


I needed something to smile about this morning.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

The FBI (in Seattle) has a Public Information (read Relations) Officer, to my knowledge that person is currently Robbie Burroughs. If any confidential information was being released in would have to have been approved by her (and others). I don’t think that has happened. If any group or individual wants access to the files (of the nature granted the Sci-Team), I would suggest you start with Agent Burroughs. (Lot’s of luck !)

Excellent Post Sluggo:

You are absolutely right about PR. Robbie Burroughs. She ENDs all enquiries about DUANE L. WEBER with the letter sent to me in 1998 and we all know that the investigation on Weber at that time had NOT been completed - even in March of 2000 and statements recorded by the media regarding Agent Carr since that time. She needs at the very least to update the information she gives on Weber when inquiries are made.

If she wants to stand by her statement I suggest she listen to ALL recorded conversations (most importantly the conversations in early 2000) that Agent Hope had with me...I am sure the FBI must make some record of such conversations.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo,

Why do you care about all this Robbie Borroughs stuff if you have proof that Duane was Cooper? Isn't it a rather moot issue now?

It is really ironic that you can demand: "She needs at the very least to update the information she gives on Weber when inquiries are made."

Good grief. Turn it around on yourself Jo.

Relentlessly but courteously,
377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Do the “Cooper Freaks” (my term, not Phil’s) usually follow other crime issues and post on other crime threads? …etc.

My focus has been Cooper ever since I got a computer in 2000. On rare occasions while searching on other sites for anything related to Cooper, I would find something of interest to read as a diversion or something out front in the media - such as Jon Benet. I may even have made a comment or two, but did not stay or debate. Being a mother that one touched my heart.

I do not think a "Cooper Freak" means not taking R&R. but being focused on Cooper. If someone is a regular poster regarding other crimes then then they are "Media Hounds" or "Unsolved Crime Hounds"...titles I just made up for the post.

I can't help being a "Cooper Freak" because of my own personal involvement regarding the subject.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

377 said:

Quote

Jo,
Why do you care about all this Robbie Borroughs stuff if you have proof that Duane was Cooper? Isn't it a rather moot issue now?
377

If I reveal one thing about what we have found at this time - we will be cut down in our steps and all of these yrs of searching and digging would have been for nothing.

Read into that whatever you guys will, but I assure you that when we get the green light nothing will keep this out of the news nor the forum...until then my lips are sealed.

When things came to light in the past - I would reveal these to "others" and "poof" the source disappeared just like the photo of the 3 prison jumpers and other things you guys know nothing about. I won't let this happen again. That one photo and the names of those jumpers might have ended this in 2000, but I tell "someone" about it on the phone - next day it is NO LONGER available and the site claimed NO knowledge of the pic.

I am using this as an example because maybe there is another explanation for "things" disappearing. Perhaps "because they were never meant to be seen", but the internet has changed this. Other sources have become defunct due to death or health (since most of the contributors were seniors) - such as those still alive in 1996 when I first contacted the FBI....

I believe my question to Quade was - asking if he found it necessary to close the tread would he be able to reopen it to make a final post at a later date...it could simply be a statement from Quade that new evidence has been presented - (stating what it is) and that in all probablility this information will forever end the debate of who Cooper was.

Frankly I hope the thread remains open until we are able to make our "information" available to the forum and the public.
I will say NOTHING more about this new information...so don't even ask.
I can post OLD information that led us to our discovery and see if any of you find it...don't think you will even come close. The "clues" have been in the public eye for yrs ....

Clue one:
The FBI has examined many suspects and some of these suspects were never investigated nor ever made public.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Quote

When things came to light in the past - I would reveal these to "others" and "poof" the source disappeared just like the photo of the 3 prison jumpers and other things you guys know nothing about. I won't let this happen again. That one photo and the names of those jumpers might have ended this in 2000, but I tell "someone" about it on the phone - next day it is NO LONGER available and the site claimed NO knowledge of the pic.

Better call GHOSTBUSTERS Jo.

Good thing I am a moderate person. Your post is like a slow pitch just slightly to the side of the plate. But... I am not gonna swing. Nope. Not gonna. Orange is next at bat. I am walking (not leaving).

I am on first base Orange, Jo is pitching.

Batter up!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I would reveal these to "others" and "poof" the source disappeared just like the photo of the 3 prison jumpers

Jo,

Had you promptly POSTED the elusive photo of the three prison jumpers then it wouldn't have disappeared, right?

Same logic applies to your alleged proof that Duane was Cooper. If crucial evidence you hold back disappears then POST IT NOW.

Quote

I will say NOTHING more about this new information...so don't even ask.

Sorry Jo, you don't control people ask here. You post incredible claims then tell us not to ask about them. I will simply ignore your hypocritical directives.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

If I reveal one thing about what we have found at this time - we will be cut down in our steps and all of these yrs of searching and digging would have been for nothing.

"Evidence" so fragile is not evidence at all.

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo,
Had you promptly POSTED the elusive photo of the three prison jumpers then it wouldn't have disappeared, right?

Same logic applies to your alleged proof that Duane was Cooper. If crucial evidence you hold back disappears then POST IT NOW.

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger I'm not lost and I enjoy open spaces Noe and then. I'm headed back to washougal soon. Now Chief be nice or you will only get one pound of salmon to share.Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo Hi Please be nice and understand that not every one shares your views you and I have discussed this many times in the past. Hows your health that should be your main concern. Jerry

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger I'm not lost and I enjoy open spaces Noe and then. I'm headed back to washougal soon. Now Chief be nice or you will only get one pound of salmon to share.Jerry

Is Sunday evening good for you? Read all posts by
Safecracking and me ...

Can you come up with a list of the years Fazio's
had cows on the bar between 71-80? Am I asking
for the impossible? The list has to be accurate.
'

[377 22]

Quote

You 377 posted:
Quote
I am the only person on this forum who has actually earned a living trolling. Sluggo can call me a trollman and no offense will be taken.



What do you mean by that statement?

I made my living in earlier years skippering commercial fishing boats Jo. It was my father's trade and he taught it to me. Among the active permits I still have is a commercial troll permit for salmon.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

salmon.
377