DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

The fragment issue is answered with this summary you posted:

'Geologist Palmer advises that he found the beach area in the vicinity where the money was found to be in approximately four different layers. The layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer and below that an older sand layer. The upper layer consisted. of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money. This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged and/or rusted. This uppermpost layer is what I shall later describe as the 'upper active working layer' because it is most recent in aquisition showing signs of both acquisition and erosion, in the near term. The post dredging sand layer under the upper active working layer contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other older rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition indicative of their age compared to the upper active
working layer. "

The statement regarding the fragments is pretty forthright and maybe so obviously no other testing was done. I have told the story of the gold sparkles in the beach sand - just try to dig without their sifting down thru every shovel full. Ever built a sand castle and a mote on the beach? Same principle applies when you use a backhoe on the river banks.

From the Dumb Blonde in laymans terms.....

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

The fragment issue is answered with this summary you posted:

'Geologist Palmer advises that he found the beach area in the vicinity where the money was found to be in approximately four different layers. The layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer and below that an older sand layer. The upper layer consisted. of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money. This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged and/or rusted. This uppermpost layer is what I shall later describe as the 'upper active working layer' because it is most recent in aquisition showing signs of both acquisition and erosion, in the near term. The post dredging sand layer under the upper active working layer contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other older rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition indicative of their age compared to the upper active
working layer. "

The statement regarding the fragments is pretty forthright and maybe so obviously no other testing was done. I have told the story of the gold sparkles in the beach sand - just try to dig without their sifting down thru every shovel full. Ever built a sand castle and a mote on the beach? Same principle applies when you use a backhoe on the river banks.

From the Dumb Blonde in laymans terms.....

Do you know anything about the years Fazios
let their cows out on Tina Bar?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I am on first base Orange, Jo is pitching.

Batter up!

377

we don't do baseball here
377...honestly, i can't even be bothered responding to what is in that post of Jo's. It is yet another one in the long line of "i know but can't tell". When Jo is able to present a shred of evidence, I'll take note. Do I expect that to happen? Based on past experience..not on your life.
In fact if anyone is prepared to run a book on this, I might consider placing a bet for the first time in my life

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger Yes I can.The fazio's have records on there cattle for that time frame.Jerry

[georger 244]

Quote

Geoger Yes I can.The fazio's have records on there cattle for that time frame.Jerry

Excellent. Lets talk Sunday night regular time if that's
ok. All is well here. Busy but well...

[377 22]

Quote

377, do you recall any past posts where the years Fazios had cows on Tina Bar was mentioned?

What are you looking for Georger? Manure trace annual strata? You know cows, I do not. Hope Jerry gets the data and it proves useful.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Thanks to Sluggo for his "very fine excellent"
summary of the socalled Dream Team's status,
its original mandate vis-a-vis the FBI, et cetera.

Im just speaking for myself here but I appreciate
Sluggo writing what he did.

Same here...

It makes getting through this stuff SO much easier when ya don't need a secret squirrel decoder ring to understand what's meant by what's being said.

Every time I hear 'The Best Is Yet To Come'...I think of late night TV ads for worthless products.

Sometimes it seems either the carrot is getting smaller or the stick is getting longer!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

Geoger Yes I can.The fazio's have records on there cattle for that time frame.Jerry

Excellent. Lets talk Sunday night regular time if that's
ok. All is well here. Busy but well...

A statement made by one of the FAZIO brothers who was at the river in 2001 when they did the film talked about the cattle.
The cattle had been run on the beach in the time prior to the find - on a regular basis. Something he said gave me the impression the cattle had been there in recent weeks prior to the find. That would have been winter so I don't know why they would have them on the river in winter...........but they must have had their reason.

There was also been a recent rise in the water due to a big SNOW melt (1980). Maybe the water/pond in the fields or holding areas were frozen. There had been a recent snow melt in the high areas which caused minor flooding on the river - this was stated in Tosaw's book and at the river that day in 2001. I do not remember how they classifed it - rising water or flooding...but water had risen over the area the money was found in recent wks prior to the find (stated by Fazio).

Just relaying what I heard that day on Tena's Bar. I did NOT stay with the crew all of the time...so I am sure other things where said. Since Jerry "claims" to be friends with the crew - I am sure they have notes or tapes of the conversations made. Maybe they didn't think any of it worth the storage to save.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Geoger Yes I can.The fazio's have records on there cattle for that time frame.Jerry

Excellent. Lets talk Sunday night regular time if that's
ok. All is well here. Busy but well...

A statement made by one of the FAZIO brothers who was at the river in 2001 when they did the film talked about the cattle.
The cattle had been run on the beach in the time prior to the find - on a regular basis. Something he said gave me the impression the cattle had been there in recent weeks prior to the find. That would have been winter so I don't know why they would have them on the river in winter...........but they must have had their reason.

There was also been a recent rise in the water due to a big SNOW melt (1980). Maybe the water/pond in the fields or holding areas were frozen. There had been a recent snow melt in the high areas which caused minor flooding on the river - this was stated in Tosaw's book and at the river that day in 2001. I do not remember how they classifed it - rising water or flooding...but water had risen over the area the money was found in recent wks prior to the find (stated by Fazio).

Just relaying what I heard that day on Tena's Bar. I did NOT stay with the crew all of the time...so I am sure other things where said. Since Jerry "claims" to be friends with the crew - I am sure they have notes or tapes of the conversations made. Maybe they didn't think any of it worth the storage to save.

Thanks. That's my recollection too from prior
discussions but I just cant seem to nail anything
definate down. But yours does help - See my reply to 377.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

377, do you recall any past posts where the years Fazios had cows on Tina Bar was mentioned?

What are you looking for Georger? Manure trace annual strata? You know cows, I do not. Hope Jerry gets the data and it proves useful.

377

Well, this all stems from the discussion with Safe
about erosion, strata, Palmer reprt, etc. The fact is, if you want a beach reworked quickly, just turn 20+ cattle out on a beach front for a season, a practice
that is now prohibited by most State DNR's ... for a host of reasons. Cattle can disturb and erode a
beachfront in record time -

There is nothing in any report I have ever seen
including the Palmer report which even mentions
cattle on Tina Bar. Why? Everyone knew the history
at Tina Bar.

If I have a 1000 yard beach frontage (parallel to a river) and I fence off 100 yards and let cattle into that area for only one season, any subsequent core sampling along the 1000 yrd beach will show obvious signs of disturbed strata, and more, for many years
after the fact. Cattle tend to turn everything inside out down to a depth of a foot or more and promote and hasten erosion, on a sloping beach front. I am speaking only of the mechanical properties of cattle walking and rooting around on a piece of ground, independent of the chemical affects of cattle. The
affects on sandy ground are more pronounced,
happen more quickly, and can lead to a complete
loss of a beach front, etc ...

In effect, the area housing cattle becomes a niche
as compared with surrounding undisturbed ground
in the area. The cattle niche should be easily identifiable through the examination of strata and simple chemical tests.

Not only are the Fazio cattle not mentioned in any
report, the photos Palmer and others took dont to
my eyes show the affects of cattle having been on
the bar, any time in the recent past before Feb
1980. I must be missing something?

On the other hand, cow urine tends to sterilize
soil below it and may even act as a preservative.
It retards bacterial growth etc. Cattle are also
very curious creatures and examine every aspect
of their environments. Had a bag of money ever landed at Tina Bar and even partially buried, it
would have been found and examined and torn apart very quickly by cattle.

What bothers me most are Palmer's photos.
I dont see any sign of mixed and disturbed strata, sand holes and plugs, or any other sign of disturbance one would normally associate with the presence of cattle. I find that bewildering if there was a history of cattle on Tina Bar ...

Safecracking says there is no significant alternative
to Palmer's reading of the strata at Tina Bar, that
would have allowed Palmer to mistake a clay
layer as being 1974 when in fact it was something earlier, say pre 1971. I would normally agree with Safe on this point except for the presence of cattle.

The presence of cattle on the new 1974 dredge
layer would have promoted erosion of that layer.
We can literally see the shoreline reducing quickly after the 1974 dredge layer was added.

Did something special happen at Tina Bar because
of the presence of cattle? Without a comparison of Tina Bar with the surrounding area you might not know or suspect something special was at work. I
can hardly believe Palmer would fall prey to such a basic mistake, but on the other hand 'cattle' are
not even mentioned (by anyone in 1980).

The Fazios might be able to shed some light on
this whole issue -

[377 22]

Quote

Cattle are also
very curious creatures and examine every aspect
of their environments. Had a bag of money ever landed at Tina Bar and even partially buried, it
would have been found and examined and torn apart very quickly by cattle.

Those Bovines are curious indeed about unusual things in their environment. Two occupants of a Navion aircraft congratulated themselves on putting it down safely in a cow pasture after an engine failure. When they returned a few days later the plane had been ruined by cows. This all metal airplane had been chewed so badly that it was scrapped.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I don't have anything to add to the conversation.
But I was wondering about this notion of being able to predict the frequency and/or content of posts, based on the short term history of posts in the thread.

It's an interesting theory. The thread is long enough now that it could be backtested. i.e. do posts from any one poster have a predictable frequency? Does the content depend on a reaction to the posts of others, and which? and to what extent?

It's possible the theory is true for some posters. And that posts from some are random.

The interesting question: does the post content and rate depend mainly on the contents of the thread (which backtesting might help reveal) or does it depend on events or variables outside the thread?

I think it does depend on stuff outside the thread, extending beyond the thread's title. That's what creates the illusion of randomness.

Why do I say backtest? Well it's gauged to intrigue Orange1, which of course is a primary goal here.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I don't have anything to add to the conversation.
But I was wondering about this notion of being able to predict the frequency and/or content of posts, based on the short term history of posts in the thread.

It's an interesting theory. The thread is long enough now that it could be backtested. i.e. do posts from any one poster have a predictable frequency? Does the content depend on a reaction to the posts of others, and which? and to what extent?

It's possible the theory is true for some posters. And that posts from some are random.

The interesting question: does the post content and rate depend mainly on the contents of the thread (which backtesting might help reveal) or does it depend on events or variables outside the thread?

I think it does depend on stuff outside the thread, extending beyond the thread's title. That's what creates the illusion of randomness.

Why do I say backtest? Well it's gauged to intrigue Orange1, which of course is a primary goal here.

I laughed out loud when i saw the last sentence because of course i was already envisaging a model with persistency effects and dummy variables and whatnot Even if someone else was prepared to go through all the posts and assign numerical values to the subject (1 for Cooper, 2 for random, 3 for new angle, 4 for response to previous thread, etc) I'm not sure I would have the time - or inclination frankly - to put it all together. Even if it would be fun seeing how the forecasts thrown out by the model panned out in due course

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Another thought that nags at me:

There is an assumption we can theorize about motivation behind behavior.

That's problematic, since we can always say someone doesn't understand their motivation. So any postulated motivation can be rationalized? Or maybe just a possible set. Big enough set though, to cause difficulty.

Maybe the allure of the thread is that it's self-affirming. Because of all these issues, there's no way for anyone to be wrong.

We are all, individually, always right.

Also musing about the difference between a troll and normal conversation. What are the tests to apply to differentiate?

[snowmman 3]

Orange1 said: "Even if it would be fun seeing how the forecasts thrown out by the model panned out in due course"

See, the thing is, use of The Model is already in operation.

Sluggo obviously acts based on his mental model. Everyone does. Georger is another one. I can't envision a model of Jerry's behavior at all, so kudos to Jerry for opaqueness.

People post with content that implies they are acting based on a mental model of expected behavior, which is based on prior posts and other knowledge.

Just because the Model isn't formally stated, doesn't mean people don't have one. Their behaviors belie that.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I don't have anything to add to the conversation.
But I was wondering about this notion of being able to predict the frequency and/or content of posts, based on the short term history of posts in the thread.

I did not understand any of those posts regarding the random thoughts in this thread.

I have one focus and only one focus and that is solving this case. Now to go completely off Topic or so it will seem to most of you, but it may be important.

Digest This:

A child was born around 1969 or 1971 to a 16 yr old girl named ----. The child was "given" to a couple in Carolinas. The couple who received the child were military and friends of Duane Weber aka John Collins and his common-law wife. We do not think a formal adoption took place. The woman who bore the child died in the last few yrs - she spoke of her child and the fact that she knew Duane Weber was Cooper.

You are thinking how is this connected to Cooper? Right!
The mother of this child told me she knew Duane was Cooper (by the way I can prove that even though she is deceased). She mentioned the child just before stating this. Her mother had also told me about "giving" the child to a couple in the Carolinas.

Certain other subjects who have been mentioned over the yrs regarding Cooper - adopted or where given a child in this same period. This was a flash when we were studing the other "subjects".
May have been unrelated, but if the child was this child - it could just be another co-incidence. We are not actively pursuing this issue, but thought you might find it interesting.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Skyjack71 said: "randon thoughts"

Obviously, I'm assuming you meant "radon thoughts" because of the radioactivity connection.

[snowmman 3]

If one has a goal of gathering information, you might
1) talk directly
2) talk indirectly
3) talk randomly
4) not talk

Does this thread use any or all of the above? Or other techniques? Social engineering? Trojans? Backdoor hacks? Or does no information get gathered here? Or is all the information low value, so that it doesn't matter?

I guess I'm trying to model the posters who seem to argue for goals that seem to be information based, accumulating towards a final goal.

[skyjack71 0]

Georger states:

Quote

The fact is, if you want a beach reworked quickly, just turn 20+ cattle out on a beach front for a season, a practice
that is now prohibited by most State DNR's ... for a host of reasons. Cattle can disturb and erode a beachfront in record time -

I was raised on a farm - our cattle did not destroy the areas around our ponds nor our fields. A bull on the rampage could be very destructive. Also I was under the opinion the cattle were only put on the shore for short periods of time - not for a season as you are suggesting.
Remember they made this area open to the public for a fee so any keeping of cattle there was very very temporary.

I think you are trying to take a mute point and run with it. The cattle are not mentioned because they weren't on the river for any extended period of time -
There is also the problem of feed on a beach and that the area was NOT large enough to "run" more than a few cattle and actually it would be considered confinement in those day because of the small area.

Also, cattle have this tendancy to venture into the water - and then they get bogged down in a pond and in a river washed off their feet and drowned...they must be herded in any water crossing. I have help my father pull many a cow out of a pond and on my grandfathers farm if the river was going to run or flood the cattle were taken to higher ground.

I DO NOT believe that the cattle were confined to the "bar" for any "extended" time. Maybe for a few daylight hours or prior to taking to market or during a heavy snow for feeding and watering. Perhaps we need a WA farmer to pipe in on this.

=================

Georger states:

Quote

Not only are the Fazio cattle not mentioned in any
report, the photos Palmer and others took dont to
my eyes show the affects of cattle having been on the bar, anytime in the recent past before Feb 1980. I must be missing something?

I believe the information you are missing is what I have stated above. Talk to an old farmer from that river. I know the daughter of farmer who lived on that river and she has a brother also. Think I will copy and paste this to her in an email.

==================
Georger states:

Quote

What bothers me most are Palmer's photos.
I dont see any sign of mixed and disturbed strata, sand holes and plugs, or any other sign of disturbance one would normally associate with the presence of cattle. I find that bewildering if there was a history of cattle on Tina Bar ...

Georger for someone so very well educated and intelligent some bits of common knowledge seems to elude you. Remember - in the few wks prior to the find of the money on Tena's bar that there had been some flooding due to the snow melt in the higher area. No responsible farmer would have put his cattle on the river during that time.

Since I come from a family of intellectuals - I understand your thought process, but I get lost in the technical end of it. As a girl only 18 mths older than my brother, I was "worked" the farm and did what was requiried of me.
My brother was in the basement with his chemistry experiments. When he showed me what Milk looked like under a microscope, I didn't drink milk for yrs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

I’m just finishing reading Billy Waugh’s book, “Hunting the Jackal,” and a couple items popped out for me.

Most interesting is his statement that the MACV SOG units were funded by the CIA, and were essentially CIA ops done by Army personnel.

Billy also included a hand-written note about Ted Bradon. He said Bradon went AWOL from SOG operations in Vietnam and next appeared in Africa doing work for an “OGA” (Other Government Agency?), then got cashiered out of the US Army and was never heard from again.

Billy also said that he has no factual proof that Bradon was Cooper, but that his looks and behavior (loner, “nads as big as watermelons,” etc.) match Cooper’s.

As for the book and Billy’s story, like Snowmman, (I think), I found some of the tales not quite ringing true for some reason. Others ring solid, though. Also, I particularly enjoyed Billy’s self-reflections towards his love of war and the warriors he fought with.

Overall, Billy has given me a tremendous view into the operations and culture of the CIA, and covert ops both Army and Intel.

One thing did surprise: no mention at all of 727s. Hmmm.

In short, thanks, Billy Waugh.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Skyjack71 said: "randon thoughts"

Obviously, I'm assuming you meant "radon thoughts" because of the radioactivity connection.

Silly, I just mispelled Random.
You knew that and made a joke and I was beginning to think humor had taken a back seat in this discussion.

Did you know that there are people like me who can change a conversation right in the middle of a subject - because one word in the current conversation strikes a memory cord. I have to quickly verbalize myself on the thought or I forget what it was until the next time. I guess that is called Old Timers, I have been told I was not always that way, but now I can't remember being any other way.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Skyjack71: "Did you know that there are people like me who can change a conversation right in the middle of a subject"

On the other hand, there are people that can't or won't change the conversation.

I guess both skills are useful. Kind of like being able to operate a paintball gun with either hand. (I wasn't kidding when I was calling Tom K. Triggerman...did you notice how fast he operated the trigger, and how his upper body gently swayed side-to-side. while firing, so he could spray paint around the obstacles between him and his target?)

Actually in Billy Waugh's book, Billy talks about an operation where his buddy, who was rescuing him, had his fingertips shot off, and the buddy lamented he now wouldn't be able to fire his weapon...there were under NVA fire and things were very bleak.

Waugh joked (he was shot up and immobile, prone) that he'd have to shoot with the other hand.

(edit) skyjack71's Old Timers joke was good!

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I’m just finishing reading Billy Waugh’s book, “Hunting the Jackal,” and a couple items popped out for me.

Most interesting is his statement that the MACV SOG units were funded by the CIA, and were essentially CIA ops done by Army personnel.

Billy also included a hand-written note about Ted Bradon. He said Bradon went AWOL from SOG operations in Vietnam and next appeared in Africa doing work for an “OGA” (Other Government Agency?), then got cashiered out of the US Army and was never heard from again.

Billy also said that he has no factual proof that Bradon was Cooper, but that his looks and behavior (loner, “nads as big as watermelons,” etc.) match Cooper’s.

As for the book and Billy’s story, like Snowmman, (I think), I found some of the tales not quite ringing true for some reason. Others ring solid, though. Also, I particularly enjoyed Billy’s self-reflections towards his love of war and the warriors he fought with.

Overall, Billy has given me a tremendous view into the operations and culture of the CIA, and covert ops both Army and Intel.

One thing did surprise: no mention at all of 727s. Hmmm.

In short, thanks, Billy Waugh.

Thanks Bruce re the Bradon info.
Some of you will recall that I did mention Africa as a place a lot of dollars could disappear into forever... there were certainly a number of US soldiers who did both SE Asia and Africa (as dd the CIA of course...anyone surprised that the CIA would be involved in the assassination of leaders needs to read some African history. You can start with Patrice Lumumba of Congo.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

re: Orange1's comments on assassinations...

Have people been reading the recent stuff on the CIA special project that was kind-of-in-flight-but-not-really, that Cheney ordered not to be revealed to Congress..i.e. assassination teams?

There's all sorts of leaks happening now. What was really funny was comments that they basically shut it down not for moral, ethical, legal or other reasons, but because they had basic problems with insert and extraction strategies...like what do you do with the shooter?

I died laughing.

Here you have bureaurcrats pretending to talk about illegal assassinations, and acting serious, but they can't even brainstorm about it effectively.

It's like a bunch of lame folks with a budget.

They can't even recognize their biggest problem.

If you pay someone (someone is getting paid. Only if you convince a true psycho, would someone do it for free)...to shoot other people, in a black operation..what do you do with the shooter 30 years later?

Criminals, I think, realize this. (like druglords). It only works if you're willing to assassinate anyone involved, including the bureaucrats. Or like the stories of killing people involved with the pyramids, to protect info about secret rooms.

Hey if Jo wants to get a great conspiracy, read all the books about Ted Shackley...the "Blond Ghost"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Shackley
google books sample:
http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Ted%20Shackley%22%20cia

There's your direct JMWAVE/Laos CIA station chief connection. Wilson was connected to him too. What's amazing is his photos..such a nerdy looking guy:
http://images.google.com/images?q=%22Ted%20Shackley%22%20cia


Dirtiest player I've run into in my readings so far...although I think some of the CIA stuff in Laos was just incompetence..i.e. you can make up conspiracy/execution that didn't exist. I think a lot of Vietnam was warriors just giving it their best in the "only good war" that was going on at the time...i.e. lots of independent actions, loosely organized.

You always have to remind yourself, that organizations of people are only so effective.

Like a helicopter. ...a flying bucket of parts, loosely connected.

Here's something that has no relation to anything that I just liked reading..a SF review:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky

[BruceSmith 3]

Hey, Orange, thanks for the kind words.

Speaking of Africa, I'm having flashbacks of my first girlfriend, a woman named Michele who told me a fantastic story of being 10 years old in 1960 and how she and her family had to leave the Congo in the middle of the night to escape the troops of anti-colonial forces.

They fled to what was then called Rhodesia, where she grew up until high school and then her family relocated to Brussels, Belgium. I met her during our freshman year of college in Philadelphia, and at the time I just accepted her story, including her description of her father as an executive of Arrow shirts.

Now, I figure he was a CIA operative, or some kind of shadowy State Department envoy and they had to skidaddle Lumumba's guys, taking a rest stop in the white man land of R before he found a new job in the NATO world of Bruxelles, as she spelled it.

When Billy said Bradon went to Africa, I assume he's talking about Angola. Any thoughts on what else Bradon might have been doing in your neck o' the woods?

(Hey, Michele, give me a call!)