DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Do you ever kiss butt Snow? If so, whose? We the accused now ask the inquisitor to confess his sins.

377

Oh sure. A lot. Georger would point out that's probably why I'm sensitive to the idea, whether I realize it or not.

Work.
Wife.
People I need to do something hard for me.
People I like or want to be like.
People that are the only path to something I really want.

Does that map to similar reasons in skydiving?

(edit) I guess part of the Quade thing, is that he doesn't moderate. I'm not asking him too. I don't know about others. The Quade effect is just random. It doesn't mean anything. I guess that's my thought. Why does anyone think the Quade effect means anything? I'm not sure what he's doing, so I'm not sure why he needs thanks. So it seems like sucking up.

[snowmman 3]

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"looking and grasping in all the wrong places"..lets not forget,too,it was dark and ol Coop wouldnt have even been able to see the ripcord thus adding to any terror/panic that would ensue during the hunt for the ripcord.

good point, chutebuilder.

But what if Coop had night jump experience/training?

(edit) Oh I forgot that Ckret pointed out the evidence of lack of experience. See, I told you we need Ckret. I constantly forget!

[377 22]

I think Orange has pointed out where very experienced jumpers have gone in as no pulls on bright sunny days apparently pulling hard on something other than their ripcord all the way down. Some weird kind of brain lock panic must be involved. Add night, fear, odd ripcord location, wild tumbling and you have a good setup for a problem. Experience apparently does not rule out a problem of this kind.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[chutebuilder 0]

I agree . CKRET please come back!!

[377 22]

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Oh sure. A lot [of butt kissing]. Georger would point out that's probably why I'm sensitive to the idea, whether I realize it or not.

Such disarming candor.

Honesty as Judo. Clever.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Oh sure. A lot [of butt kissing]. Georger would point out that's probably why I'm sensitive to the idea, whether I realize it or not.

Such disarming candor.

Honesty as Judo. Clever.

377

"offer bone to break bone" :)

Oh, I forgot to re-mention. (hasn't everything been mentioned before at some time? :)

The right hand outboard pull, needs to be evaluated in the context of saying the 28' C-9 would be a hard pull in the NB-8.

The text I posted from Poynter addresses the benefits of the mod, in improving the pull.

Jumpers with experience could address this.

[snowmman 3]

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I think Orange has pointed out where very experienced jumpers have gone in as no pulls on bright sunny days apparently pulling hard on something other than their ripcord all the way down. Some weird kind of brain lock panic must be involved. Add night, fear, odd ripcord location, wild tumbling and you have a good setup for a problem. Experience apparently does not rule out a problem of this kind.

377

Right. So why do jumpers get all dogmatic about this or that detail in probable (possible?) behavior, pointing strongly to a decision about experience? Even Cousin Brucie, in his question about chutes, falls in that trap.

I think of it more like "what aligns with what..what doesn't align with what"...I guess it's like the Venn diagram approach georger mentioned.

[377 22]

I think about the experience issue a lot. My current thinking (it changes frequently) is that I can't judge whether Copper was a Whuffo or an experienced jumper. The evidence is just too ambiguous. I do wish we knew more about the shoes he jumped with. No experienced jumper would make that jump in easy on loafers.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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I think about the experience issue a lot. My current thinking (it changes frequently) is that I can't judge whether Copper was a Whuffo or an experienced jumper. The evidence is just too ambiguous. I do wish we knew more about the shoes he jumped with. No experienced jumper would make that jump in easy on loafers.

377

Yup.
To reiterate my point about how Ckret tries to be as dogmatic as any of us, with little data...(I hate saying the same thing twice, but people sometimes don't seem to grok it the first time)

Ckret said no experienced jumper would jump in those conditions.

Waugh's halo jump was in rain (edit) of some kind. Details are fuzzy. The bad weather prevented extraction for two days I believe it was. There's no way to know, but surely the bad weather was a contributor to the MIA.

In my mind, Waugh learned the value of jumping in bad weather, if you didn't want to be found by search planes/helicopters, on that jump. Maybe also got motivated to try again to "do it right this time".

Just random thoughts. Obviously.

[nigel99 558]

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Since 377 replied, maybe it's worth posting the detail in case people don't follow links. I'm really curious if this was what Earl Cossey had done to the rig.

Poynter makes outboard pull sound like a mod primarily done for student stability. I never saw one. Our DZ jumpmasters were fanatical about having you protect your ripcord handles in the plane. An outboard pull would have been viewed skeptically by them since it is so much more easily snagged than the traditional inboard pull.

The mod takes a bit of rigging work. Why would Cossey do the mod on a pilots rig? Various theories have been put forward, not sure if they make sense.

If Cooper were familiar with military bailout rigs and became disoriented after exit, he might never find an outboard ripcord. You'd be looking/feeling/grasping in all the wrong places.

377

It is a long time ago for me (15 years) but I am pretty sure that outboard pull was standard on the crap that I trained on. I have grapped a portion of an on old picture from our club and I am certain that you can just see the ripcord handle facing outwards.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

nice datapoint nigel99.
thanks for posting the pic.

[Orange1 0]

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Am I just missing something here? Orange1 do you have any reaction when Jerry says that your momness means something core about you?

straighten me out. I may be clueless.

... it was meant as a compliment and i took it as one, and moved on to the next post...and didn't think anything further of it till i came to your post on it!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Yikes Nigel. Double shot squeeze and pull Capwells too. Scary hardware. Thank goodness I had just "upgraded" to military surplus shot and a half Capewells when I had my first cutaway. That old gear looks so sketchy by todays standards. You get some respect for having jumped it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Jerry,

Snow raises an interesting point about the weather. Your thoughts? Would you consider making the jump in bad weather to reduce the chances of being tracked and captured? Sounds like the military did use this tactic.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Jerry,

Snow raises an interesting point about the weather. Your thoughts? Would you consider making the jump in bad weather to reduce the chances of being tracked and captured? Sounds like the military did use this tactic.

377

I'd also be curious to hear more about any of Jerry's training, jumps and other stuff, if he feels like sharing it.
To be honest, I have no gathered info on Jerry's background or experiences.

[JerryThomas 0]

I personaly would not make that jump under the conditions cooper did. If ordered to do so I would have been properly prepared. But dressed as he was and no Known point of entry. Or proper gear I must say No. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman.I have already posted in the past my Training/ experence To include my Military service. Your write not much is known about me. So lets just say I have taken many chances gone through exstensive training Endured many hardships.Last but not least I'm still alive I've done things people dream of doing and I've done things Most people would be ashamed to admit. I am not prowd of the live's I have taken or the medals I've been awarded.What I am prowd of is the fact That I raised two kids on my own and suported two others. This was very difficult for me to do while still in the military.Although I had custody of two children and had to leave them with Hired help I still did my best. And served my country. I met Shelly Just before I retired from the military .That was 23 yrs ago. my oldest son is 37 my oldest grand child is 18. now you have some Info. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange 1 It was a compliment in the highest form /respect. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Thanks for that detail Jerry.

See, you should remind yourself of what you've done to raise some kids more often! It's not just about moms.

You deserve an attaboy, if no one has given it.

I will. Attaboy.
And I'm being sincere. Although I can't know, I suspect "job well done".

(edit) And for 377, who based on our recent conversation might say "hmm. snow is sucking up." Nope. The reality is that Jerry has his own life. Me sucking up to Jerry would mean nothing. I'm willing to take the chance of thinking he might really need a pat on the back. A lot of people do.

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce If cooper was an experenced Jumper or military trained he would not have chossen the chutes he did.At most he researched the aircraft he used.He choose it because of the stairway.He was totally shocked that he got the money as easily as he did. He started a hole new game of airpiracy. By using a bomb. instead of a gun.Contrary to rumors That a bullet will penitrate the skin of a airliner and cause Havoc.This is not true However a bomb Is the choice of distruction and kills all. Cooper relized this and used it to his advantage.Stupid he was dumb he was not.He forgot to realize the enviroment and what he would have to wear to have a succesfull Jump. This was his down fall he did not believe he would even get the money.He did not properly prepair for what would happen if he did get money.I believe he was on a suicide mission otherwise he would have been much better prepaired. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Jerry,
for it to be a suicide mission, Cooper would have to get the parachute, right? Unless he planned on jumping with no chute?

But if he thought he'd get the parachute, why would he not think he'd get the money? i.e. be surprised at getting the money.

I don't follow the thinking.

Are you thinking that getting arrested or shot was the suicide mission?

[377 22]

I will add my "attaboy" to Snow's. Few men take on single parenting. Jerry's compliment to Orange takes on a new perspective. Jerry has had to do some mothering of his own in addition to fathering. When there is only one parent raising kids they have to play both roles sometimes.

It is noteworthy that Jerry puts parenting rather than soldiering at the top of his pride list.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I'm not sure I posted this before. I think the most detailed account I posted before was from the point of view of what happened with Strohlein...i.e. the MIA, presumed KIA accounting.

It's interesting that Billy didn't write up his account of the jump in his book. I suppose he left out a lot of interesting stuff in his book. I don't know why. The Carlos the Jackal stuff was pretty boring, in comparison to stuff he did earlier. I can't imagine the Carlos/Libya stuff was all that important to Waugh?

Apparently posted by someone who was in the helis afterward..part of the bright light team.
Interesting more detail. I'm not sure if I have this book from Plaster on order....but apparently it describes that Bath's chute had blown out in the center and he had almost no control (actually I think I read that before elsewhere).

It reiterates the heavy rain.
Not as detailed as another accounts, but it's good because it's first person.

http://www.macvsog.org/halo_extract.htm

I’m recently read SOG by John L. Plaster. I love the book and read it with interest and looking for that “story” that might have something to do with A/101, Comancheros
....

Anyway on page 317 of “SOG”, I read where Sergeant Major Billy Waugh, Staff Sergeant James “JD” Bath and Sergeants Jesse Campbell and Madison Strohlein were the member of SOG HALO team. They were put in a target DZ 60 miles southwest of Danang on 22 June 1971 on a intensely dangerous night jump at 14,000' from a Blackbird [ed. C130]. The book goes on to tell that Bath’s chute had blown out the canopy center and he had almost no control in his descent. He got separated from Strohlein, Campbell and Waugh in the heavy rain and his chute collapsed on a tree branch and he plunged to the ground wrenching his knee and knocking himself out. Strohlein crashed through the trees and was caught up in the tree with his chute. He broke his right arm and could not operate his descender. In his harness with a broken arm he was stuck in the tree. He could only talk with Bath by radio. Waugh and Campbell landed safely. They all say NVA during the night but were not discovered by them.

The A/101 Avn., Comancheros, were the extraction birds the next morning. We had Bright Light teams on board a couple of our birds, but not on mine, when we went out at O dark 30. We first were going to go after Bath, but he said that Strohlein needed to get out first. We were redirected to the adjoining embankment to look for Strohlein. We had a hell of a time trying to find him. He was on the radio talking to us and trying to vector us toward him by the sound of our rotors. This was triple canopy jungle and we could not see him anywhere. We once thought that we were very close and he said he could hear us overhead. The rotor blades moved the jungle away and I saw him (I thought). I leaned out and threw a string to him and it landed at his feet. He just looked up at me and would not take the string. We were hovering about 25'-30' above “him” and I was motioning for him to grab the string but he would not. He just looked up at me and smiled. The pilots ask me what the problem was and I told him he would not grab the string.

Then for some reason I asked the pilot if the team was all round eyes or if yards were among them? While I was still motioning to try to get this “yard” to grab the string, the pilot came back with “All round eye team”. About that time I got very frightened and reached back to grab my M16 as it was within reach while I was laying on the floor. Just as I locked and loaded it and stuck my head back out to shoot and this guy as he starts to take his gun from a position of slung over his shoulder. Now it seems like it took forever for all this to transpire, but could not of been more than a couple of seconds. I pulled the trigger before he got his AK up to aim. Why he did not shoot us before this I can’t explain. He had enough time to fire his whole clip in the bottom of my Huey and me as I lay on the deck. This is the only time I ever shot any NVA/VC that I could see their eyes. I can still see it just as though it was yesterday.

After he threw a smoke we found out that Strohlein was actually hearing another Comanchero over him but was talking to and directing us. Then he popped smoke we found the smoke but could not find his location exactly through the canopy jungle. He warned us off because he heard NVA around him and we did not want to give his position away. The weather got real bad and we were almost out of fuel so we moved over to were Campbell and Waugh were and extracted them instead.

After going back and fueling up, we went back out again. We could not reach Strohlein on the radio, so one of the Comanchero birds rappelled in a couple of guys to go after Bath. They found him and all were lifted out on strings. After circling for a while and trying to reach Strohlein on the radio without any luck, his ridge was engulfed in fog so we could not get in to low level search for him. We finally started taking same light ground fire and again running low on fuel we had to leave.

The next day a Hatchet force platoon was inserted to go after Strohlein. They found his map and CAR-15. No blood was found, however AK and CAR-15 brass were around the location. Sergeant Strohlein was never found and is still listed as MIA. I didn’t know about his fate until I read it in “SOG”.

I was able to tell this story from the information I found in SOG by John L. Plaster and what little memory I have of the incident. It is heart breaking to now know the fate of Sergeant Madison Strohlein. I still have the feeling that if we had just tried a little harder we could have found him. I will look him up on the Wall the next time I get the chance.

At Fort Bragg there is a vertical wind tower where Special Forces HALO parachutists perfect their skills, Strohlein Hall, named for SOG HALO jumper Madison Strohlein, MIA and believed captured.

[snowmman 3]

Has anyone dug up anything interesting on Gossett?

[skyjack71 0]

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Has anyone dug up anything interesting on Gossett?

Cook has been quiet recently, but I do know he is on sabatical in Alaska for personal reasons and to finish his book.

Regarding Cossey - I am one of the few individuals to have direct contact with him. He chooses his words and short on the subject. One thing I keep remembering is that he packed the chute for himself - the pull was the opposite of what would normally be prepared. So I guess Left handed pull versus right handed pull, whichever is not the norm.

I remember this because Duane was Left Handed and I assumed that the chute was rigged for a left handed person. Not sure what led me to this conclusion. In the prior discuss someone - pulled exact quotes from Cossey regarding this.

Recently I have been pulling old things and throwing things away. I found a journal of sorts I wrote back in the early 90's before Duane died. It was amazing what I wrote back then - it was an old journal about our life...when the diaylsis started....I don't feel like sharing of any of it right now, but even then I commented - he is a man with a past and how secretive he was.

My vocabulary in the early nineties was not as limited as it is now - I was pleasantly surprised the journal read like a really good book. All hand written on lined paper - no computer or even a typewriter and in pencil to boot.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber