snowmman 3
Recommended Posts
QuoteGeorger,
In the current vernacular:
The FBI got pwned.
Boom! Headshot!
Cooper bamboozeled them -..Who-ever he was.
Cooper was flying by the seat of his pants and it worked...it was dumb luck...he took what he did know and used it. Think about Coopers actions when they actually delivered the money - NO way would a professionally trained military jumper behave in that manner.
Tina described Cooper as a SAD man to me on the phone (providing that was really Tina) and to the FBI in 1971. The professional men (self proclaimed and other suspects
of stature) would not have let their guard down - not one word that might reveal who or why they might commit this specific crime.
The glee Cooper expressed when the money was actually delivered - his prior dejected mood that made Tina say he was a "sad" man - does ANY of that sound like a professional who KNEW he was going to survive the jump and get away with the crime?
There are professionals, law enforcement, computer geeks, writers, wives and husbands on this thread from all walks of life. The FBI and others have tried to complicate Cooper - he wasn't complicated nor was the crime complicated. If you stand back and read this forum as an observer - you really absorb much more than as a contributor.
Although I maintain my privacy I am not hard to find on the computer...and what I just said above is the consensus of others - NOT ME.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
I mentioned a page I landed on that had some of the '60s era military HALO training in the US. Great b/w pictures.
This article is from the Parachutist Magazine, Feb. 1964
Cool how the military guy was basically trying to pass knowledge in this article? I guess it was all pretty experimental then:
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/tropo.html
Good '60s photos here. Some pics from Parachutist 2/63
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo.html
First one on this page is "First US HALO Class Ft. Bragg N.C. 1962"
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo2.html
This article is from the Parachutist Magazine, Feb. 1964
Cool how the military guy was basically trying to pass knowledge in this article? I guess it was all pretty experimental then:
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/tropo.html
Good '60s photos here. Some pics from Parachutist 2/63
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo.html
First one on this page is "First US HALO Class Ft. Bragg N.C. 1962"
http://www.vistech.net/users/edman/halo/photo2.html
snownnam said:
QuoteSluggo doesn't have the evil gene.
Sir, I demand proof... Show me (us) your evidence.
Sluggo Marrinelli
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
snowmman 3
Quotesnownnam said:
QuoteSluggo doesn't have the evil gene.
Sir, I demand proof... Show me (us) your evidence.
Sluggo Marrinelli
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
You have to be able to sit in a bar, late at night, dimly lit, with 5 other guys, half drunk and say
"I shot a man in Reno
Just to watch him die"
and have everyone go quiet.
That's the test. If you can pass it, put the video up on youtube.
snowmman 3
I thumbed forward to Plaster's "SOG" Chapter 16, "Fighting Soldiers From the Sky" pp 303-326
It has more detail about the HALO jumps then previously posted. You get a better sense of the surreal reality of it, I think.
There's no way I can summarize it. I think any jumper reading it would be frightened just by the thought of what they were doing. I think maybe the inserts/recons by heli over time, facing so much death, created a level of fearlessness, or "get the job done" that's hard to grapple with. An incremental training-over-time effect, that created a level of behavior/risk taking that only would make sense in a shooting war.
They quickly realized that all the Fort Bragg HALO simulations, were just too canned, and a nowhere-near-close approximation of the real in-combat reality.
There's an interesting description of how the first guy conned his friend into volunteering for the first HALO combat jump with him.
It involved scotch and root beer (lots) and chinese checkers.
I dunno, maybe I might scan it and OCR it.
But it really helps to read the beginning of the book too, to set a context for the HALO jumps.
There's a surreal feeling reading the book. Everything is described like this led to that which led to that which led to that...a perfectly logical sounding series of events and behaviors.
But when you step back and think about it, it's all insane.
I dunno. There's no good way to digest it. It was a separate reality. I can read till the cows come home, but I won't be able to know.
Oh, for 377, a story of a homing device (cigarette pack sized) and detection by regular Sony transistor radios, is described, to help team members find each other on the ground. Sort of like we read from the Project Delta team member. The device had also been used by agent teams in North Vietnam to find dropped-by-parachute supplies, so I guess it was CIA provided, most likely (like the other account said).
It has more detail about the HALO jumps then previously posted. You get a better sense of the surreal reality of it, I think.
There's no way I can summarize it. I think any jumper reading it would be frightened just by the thought of what they were doing. I think maybe the inserts/recons by heli over time, facing so much death, created a level of fearlessness, or "get the job done" that's hard to grapple with. An incremental training-over-time effect, that created a level of behavior/risk taking that only would make sense in a shooting war.
They quickly realized that all the Fort Bragg HALO simulations, were just too canned, and a nowhere-near-close approximation of the real in-combat reality.
There's an interesting description of how the first guy conned his friend into volunteering for the first HALO combat jump with him.
It involved scotch and root beer (lots) and chinese checkers.
I dunno, maybe I might scan it and OCR it.
But it really helps to read the beginning of the book too, to set a context for the HALO jumps.
There's a surreal feeling reading the book. Everything is described like this led to that which led to that which led to that...a perfectly logical sounding series of events and behaviors.
But when you step back and think about it, it's all insane.
I dunno. There's no good way to digest it. It was a separate reality. I can read till the cows come home, but I won't be able to know.
Oh, for 377, a story of a homing device (cigarette pack sized) and detection by regular Sony transistor radios, is described, to help team members find each other on the ground. Sort of like we read from the Project Delta team member. The device had also been used by agent teams in North Vietnam to find dropped-by-parachute supplies, so I guess it was CIA provided, most likely (like the other account said).
When I was looking at the names on those HALO jumpers one of the names jumped out at me and then I realized oops not Garvey, but Harvey. Between my age and trying to cram too much into this old brain - I am tired.
except your obsession is productive. Never have I seen this much information about jumping history anywhere condensed in to one source.
There should be a set of books or CD's that would record the history of jumping from the very first concept and follow it right throught the yrs into the wars and into history. Maybe I am one of those "weird" people who would keep right on buying every volume or CD as it was published.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
nigel99 561
QuoteHere's the sketch that I find interesting.
Compare the "age progressed" sketch to the LV "Initial Sketch" (previously posted).
See the wide flat mouth?
All the other later sketches (including the sinister ones) have a narrow mouth with pursed lips.
Hmmm?
I think the sketches are pretty meaningless. In all honesty they probably can be thought to be similar to a large number of people. See example attached and unlike Duane I CAN put my cooper suspect in a parachute!
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
377 22
Quoteunlike Duane I CAN put my cooper suspect in a parachute!
When did Bush Jr ever jump? On the rare occasions when he reported for ANG pilot duties I guess sitting in an F 102 ejection seat put him in a parachute. Same with his absurdly stupid MISSION ACCOMPLISHED carrier landing in an A6.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
nigel99 561
QuoteQuoteunlike Duane I CAN put my cooper suspect in a parachute!
When did Bush Jr ever jump? On the rare occasions when he reported for ANG pilot duties I guess sitting in an F 102 ejection seat put him in a parachute. Same with his absurdly stupid MISSION ACCOMPLISHED carrier landing in an A6.
377
I don't know that he has ever jumped. But I would classify ejection seat training as a "form" of parachute training. Of course he is probably to young and senior is the right age group and of course has made a number of jumps.
But in all seriousness my point is that Bush JR looks very similar to the sketch (a better match than the other chap in my opinion) that was provided - and we know 100% that it is not him.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
snowmman 3
This is important, and surprising.
I was thumbing thru the second Plaster book I have: "Secret Commandos".
On page 346, when Plaster is talking about what happened to everyone post war (He mentions how all the SOG files were burned, it took days).
Rex Jaco, my RT California One-One, was interviewed by the FBI in the 1971 hijacking of a Northwest Airlines plane. Rex was not the notorious "D.B. Cooper," who parachuted with a $200,000 ransom and has never been found. Today he serves on the board for the David Crockett VFW Post in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee."
Now, why would they have interviewed Rex? I suspect he's too young.Don't have a photo yet. Photo below. (edit) Rex's approx age in 1971: 36
But if they interviewed Rex, why not Waugh?
This also confirms that Carr is full of shit and doesn't tell us the full truth about stuff. Like where the FBI looked and where they didn't. Maybe Carr just doesn't know.
Comments?
I have to go back thru everything, but my first impression is that Rex Jaco didn't participate in the HALO jumps. Maybe the HALO stuff was still classified and no one talked or knew about it when the FBI interviewed????
(edit) Poor pic of Rex Jaco attached
I was thumbing thru the second Plaster book I have: "Secret Commandos".
On page 346, when Plaster is talking about what happened to everyone post war (He mentions how all the SOG files were burned, it took days).
Rex Jaco, my RT California One-One, was interviewed by the FBI in the 1971 hijacking of a Northwest Airlines plane. Rex was not the notorious "D.B. Cooper," who parachuted with a $200,000 ransom and has never been found. Today he serves on the board for the David Crockett VFW Post in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee."
Now, why would they have interviewed Rex? I suspect he's too young.
But if they interviewed Rex, why not Waugh?
This also confirms that Carr is full of shit and doesn't tell us the full truth about stuff. Like where the FBI looked and where they didn't. Maybe Carr just doesn't know.
Comments?
I have to go back thru everything, but my first impression is that Rex Jaco didn't participate in the HALO jumps. Maybe the HALO stuff was still classified and no one talked or knew about it when the FBI interviewed????
(edit) Poor pic of Rex Jaco attached
snowmman 3
Quote
But in all seriousness my point is that Bush JR looks very similar to the sketch (a better match than the other chap in my opinion) that was provided - and we know 100% that it is not him.
yeah, we know because wrong age in 1971.
Do you have any of the right height and age from 1971 and similar backgrounds, with some kind of motivation to do the hijack?
If so, sure, they would be good suspects. Bring 'em on!
snowmman 3
Rex Jaco is still alive.
74 years old, in Lawrenceburg, TN
Phone number available via Google.
Be interesting to call him and find out what the FBI asked during his interview, and when it happened, and what he told the FBI.....Obviously he's not interesting (the age is all wrong, since he was 36 or so in 1971).
But we can investigate the FBI thru Jaco.
From his photo, I suspect people thought of him based on the early sketches of Cooper. (Why the f* did they ignore the age issue though?)
What year was he interviewed?
Brucie: you can read about Rex online. For instance, with Plaster, when they captured that prisoner off the truck.
http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/26.PDF
That's where I got his photo from.
Jaco also here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JYT5UO_VHHcC&pg=PA232&dq=%22Rex+Jaco%22
74 years old, in Lawrenceburg, TN
Phone number available via Google.
Be interesting to call him and find out what the FBI asked during his interview, and when it happened, and what he told the FBI.....Obviously he's not interesting (the age is all wrong, since he was 36 or so in 1971).
But we can investigate the FBI thru Jaco.
From his photo, I suspect people thought of him based on the early sketches of Cooper. (Why the f* did they ignore the age issue though?)
What year was he interviewed?
Brucie: you can read about Rex online. For instance, with Plaster, when they captured that prisoner off the truck.
http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/26.PDF
That's where I got his photo from.
Jaco also here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JYT5UO_VHHcC&pg=PA232&dq=%22Rex+Jaco%22
377 22
QuoteThis is important, and surprising.
Rex Jaco, my RT California One-One, was interviewed by the FBI in the 1971 hijacking of a Northwest Airlines plane. Rex was not the notorious "D.B. Cooper," who parachuted with a $200,000 ransom and has never been found. Today he serves on the board for the David Crockett VFW Post in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee."
Very surprising given Ckret's stance on the irrelevance of Nam vets. It appears to show a smarter FBI than we thought though. Can you throw them that bone Snow?
Would really like to know how intense the FBI focus was on Nam RT/SOG vets.
They had to know who Waugh was if they knew who Jaco was. Don't you think?
Although I will surely get the kiss butt label for saying this, isn't it possible that Ckret is just mistaken rather than "full of shit"?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Quote
Very surprising given Ckret's stance on the irrelevance of Nam vets. It appears to show a smarter FBI than we thought though. Can you throw them that bone Snow?
No. Definitely not. The age was all wrong. And Jaco didn't have HALO experience. (edit) Don't know if he had any jump experience. I did read where two SF guys had "competitive" skydiving experience pre-Nam. So maybe a bunch of them were jumpers...military or civilian ..don't know.
I suspect they talked to people showing the sketch and ignored age issues. Someone mentioned Jaco as a possible, and that was the extent of the FBI's investigation of SOG.
The FBI doesn't appear to have done any investigation. They followed tips, and very shallow interviews. That's my suspicion.
I have no data. But that's to be expected because of the FBI coverup.
Carr says they changed gears in the investigation for good reason. His good reasons are bullshit.
So why did they change gears? Carr is stuck defending the switch, without presenting any good information. He's also stuck not presenting who they investigated before the switch.
Carr is stuck defending someone else's point of view.
Carr doesn't have a brain of his own. If he does, it's surprisingly just the same as the FBI investigation has been for the last N years.
Or I am missing something? What is different about anything Carr has said, compared to what the FBI investigation focused on in the last N years?
snowmman 3
377 mused about the differences between "mistaken rather than "full of shit"?"
Someone comes onto the DZ and says something about how a jump should be done.
If someone corrects him, pointing out some problems with that perspective, and he adjusts what he says, then he's just mistaken.
If he continues to wax eloquent about how a jump should be done, then he's just full of shit.
Right?
Someone comes onto the DZ and says something about how a jump should be done.
If someone corrects him, pointing out some problems with that perspective, and he adjusts what he says, then he's just mistaken.
If he continues to wax eloquent about how a jump should be done, then he's just full of shit.
Right?
snowmman 3
377 said "They had to know who Waugh was if they knew who Jaco was. Don't you think?"
Depends. Young guys probably wouldn't be able to picture the old guy doing it.
Waugh had returned to the US. We need the exact dates. (edit) also, leave to stateside seemed to happen for the SOG guys. Be interested in detail about that...when/how did they take leaves?
No idea where the FBI interviewed. Nam? US? What year?
All the SOG files were burned.
The new composite sketch didn't appear until 1980 (or whatever year?)
So who the hell knows what, or where, or when, they did any SOG investigation.
Depends. Young guys probably wouldn't be able to picture the old guy doing it.
Waugh had returned to the US. We need the exact dates. (edit) also, leave to stateside seemed to happen for the SOG guys. Be interested in detail about that...when/how did they take leaves?
No idea where the FBI interviewed. Nam? US? What year?
All the SOG files were burned.
The new composite sketch didn't appear until 1980 (or whatever year?)
So who the hell knows what, or where, or when, they did any SOG investigation.
377 22
If the FBI's investigation was just tip chasing then I can see your "bullshit" conclusion, but how can you be sure that they didn't dig deeper?
Even if Jaco was found by tip chasing it could be a productive lead. If a sharp FBI agent (and there are a few) talked to Jaco and Jaco was cooperative, the agent would likely learn about some better suspects who had Nam HALO experience.
Even if Cooper had no connection to the Nam/SE Asia war, it is a place rich with possibly relevant info, rainy night HALO jumps into hostile terrain, 727 jumps, smoke jumper/CIA work etc. It bears scrutiny in any competent Cooper investigation for that reason. Hard to understand why the FBI would not have taken a good look at it beyond just a tip generated interview with Jaco.
377
Even if Jaco was found by tip chasing it could be a productive lead. If a sharp FBI agent (and there are a few) talked to Jaco and Jaco was cooperative, the agent would likely learn about some better suspects who had Nam HALO experience.
Even if Cooper had no connection to the Nam/SE Asia war, it is a place rich with possibly relevant info, rainy night HALO jumps into hostile terrain, 727 jumps, smoke jumper/CIA work etc. It bears scrutiny in any competent Cooper investigation for that reason. Hard to understand why the FBI would not have taken a good look at it beyond just a tip generated interview with Jaco.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
hmm.
Okay, you're right, 377.
my mistake.
Okay, you're right, 377.
my mistake.
snowmman 3
I thought it was interesting in Waugh's reply to Jo, that he phrased it like he didn't remember where he was in Nov 1971, saying he "surely" must have been busy in CCN.
Every SF account I read, the guys seem to know exactly every month where they were and what was going on.
Maybe Waugh just had too many things going on. I thought it was interesting, especially if he was quitting then. I would think he'd know exactly, rather than saying something fuzzy to Jo.
And why say anything like that to Jo anyhow? It's a weird, light denial, but non-denial since it's fuzzy. Maybe it's just an SF guy playing with whuffos.
Every SF account I read, the guys seem to know exactly every month where they were and what was going on.
Maybe Waugh just had too many things going on. I thought it was interesting, especially if he was quitting then. I would think he'd know exactly, rather than saying something fuzzy to Jo.
And why say anything like that to Jo anyhow? It's a weird, light denial, but non-denial since it's fuzzy. Maybe it's just an SF guy playing with whuffos.
377 22
Quote377 mused about the differences between "mistaken rather than "full of shit"?"
Someone comes onto the DZ and says something about how a jump should be done.
If someone corrects him, pointing out some problems with that perspective, and he adjusts what he says, then he's just mistaken.
If he continues to wax eloquent about how a jump should be done, then he's just full of shit.
Right?
OK, fair enough, but precisely when did Ckret continue to wax eloquent about something after being shown that he was wrong, not just being shown that there was a difference of opinion on something? Did he continue to say Nam vets are not viable candidates after being shown that they were?
Waugh may not be Cooper, but he looks the FBI sketch and has VERY relevant jump and evasion experience. Right age, right skills, right appearance.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuoteAnd why say anything like that to Jo anyhow? It's a weird, light denial, but non-denial since it's fuzzy. Maybe it's just an SF guy playing with whuffos.
It would be funny if Waugh were Cooper but knows nobody can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt (the criminal conviction standard).
Addressing Jo as maam, sending a cover from the Dan Cooper comic and being vague about an alibi... what a great tease.
His interaction with Jo was quite odd. Don't know what to read into it. He could have so easily ignored her.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
a sick obscure play on current events.
"Son, we live in a world that has (iPhones) and those (iPhones) need to be guarded by (corporate thugs). Who's gonna do it? You? You, (Mr. I want my iPhone)? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for (Sun Danyong) and curse (Foxconn); you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that (Sun Danyong's) death, while tragic, probably saved (Apple) and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves (western capitalism).
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about (on) parties (lines) you want me (in Foxconn), you need me (in Foxconn). We use words like (patents), (trade secrets), (copyrights). We use them as the backbone of a life trying to defend (our monopoly). You use them as a punchline.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who (surfs the internet) and (make calls using) the very (iPhone) I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just (pay up and) said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a (baseball bat) and (report to Foxconn corporate security). Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
"Son, we live in a world that has (iPhones) and those (iPhones) need to be guarded by (corporate thugs). Who's gonna do it? You? You, (Mr. I want my iPhone)? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for (Sun Danyong) and curse (Foxconn); you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that (Sun Danyong's) death, while tragic, probably saved (Apple) and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves (western capitalism).
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about (on) parties (lines) you want me (in Foxconn), you need me (in Foxconn). We use words like (patents), (trade secrets), (copyrights). We use them as the backbone of a life trying to defend (our monopoly). You use them as a punchline.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who (surfs the internet) and (make calls using) the very (iPhone) I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just (pay up and) said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a (baseball bat) and (report to Foxconn corporate security). Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
snowmman 3
377 asked "Did he continue to say Nam vets are not viable candidates after being shown that they were?"
He was never here when we showed they were.
He hangs out with Sluggo at the bar and talks about the case.
I guess I should discount that.
So, I apologize. Carr is not full of shit, I have no proof of that.
(edit) Can we review why it makes sense that loadmaster is the current FBI profile? I wonder why loadmasters aren't offended. Do loadmaster vet organizations shrug and say "Yeah, it was probably a loadmaster".
He was never here when we showed they were.
He hangs out with Sluggo at the bar and talks about the case.
I guess I should discount that.
So, I apologize. Carr is not full of shit, I have no proof of that.
(edit) Can we review why it makes sense that loadmaster is the current FBI profile? I wonder why loadmasters aren't offended. Do loadmaster vet organizations shrug and say "Yeah, it was probably a loadmaster".
In the current vernacular:
The FBI got pwned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp0LNoIgt5c
Boom! Headshot!
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites