DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Dick Meadows is a classic example of how no one knew about these SOG guys even up to the early '80s.

Meadows was described by Plaster, I mentioned him a little.

A very good in-depth history of Meadows is here
http://www.specialforces.org/sfalx/docs/meadows.pdf

Even after retiring, he was involved in stuff, training...the Delta Force attempted rescue of the Iranian hostages, etc.

"Virtually no one outside the black ops and Special Forces community knew of Dick Meadows until he made the cover of Newsweek in the early 1980s"

Any investigation the FBI did in the '70s may have been pretty poor, just because all the info was still kept pretty close by these guys.

[snowmman 3]

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Those crazy theories the shrinks came up with don't make sense. He could have said "two parachutes" to address the thing you're saying.

two back plus two front (chest), makes no sense, unless you're a jumper.

I disagree I think a large number of non-jumpers "could" have been familiar with front/back parachutes. For example a person who was interested in aviation or paratroopers may have seen pictures, someone with a relative who had jumped and seen photo's or been told stories at Christmas, someone who knew a jumper and had been told "no shit there I was stories..."

Yes, Cooper could have been just a random guy with no jump experience. That theory is always possible.
But you're throwing in motivation theories. Who knows what Cooper's motivation was. Could be anything.

But yeah, if you don't think there was any firsthand skill knowledge displayed by Cooper...i.e. he could have had no training..then sure...anyone could be Cooper.

I guess I don't follow the reasoning that just because he knew jumpers, he would be motivated to hijack a plane and get away by jumping. Seems a stretch? Can you expand? He wanted money and he hatched the plan based on what he had heard others talk about? Or he was a wannabe jumper and figured he could jump out at night in the rain, for first jump? And didn't hesitate?

[nigel99 528]

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Yes, Cooper could have been just a random guy with no jump experience. That theory is always possible.
But you're throwing in motivation theories. Who knows what Cooper's motivation was. Could be anything.

But yeah, if you don't think there was any firsthand skill knowledge displayed by Cooper...i.e. he could have had no training..then sure...anyone could be Cooper.

I guess I don't follow the reasoning that just because he knew jumpers, he would be motivated to hijack a plane and get away by jumping. Seems a stretch? Can you expand? He wanted money and he hatched the plan based on what he had heard others talk about? Or he was a wannabe jumper and figured he could jump out at night in the rain, for first jump? And didn't hesitate?

I wasn't addressing motivation simply the fact that a non-jumper could have enough knowledge to ask for a front and back parachute.

I believe most parachutists even those with only first jump experience would associate a front and back parachute as a "set" i.e they would know that the reserve went on the front and the main on the back. I don't believe that modern piggyback systems existed then - but I don't know. The more I think about it I believe there is a clue in front and back parachute as far as terminology goes.

Certainly in the UK adults used different vocabulary than today and I would expect a knowledgeable person to use the correct terminology. Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old.

I would quite like to hear the opinion of the older US jumpers on this?

We are told that Cooper put the rig on confidently - the old saying "only a fool goes where angels fear to tread" comes to mind. There is a possibility that Cooper lacked so much knowledge he simply put the harness on - for all we know he didn't even step into the legstraps - not that I believe this last comment.

The above is a valid explanation but his age does tend to discount that theory (I think) as it is more likely that an 18-25 year old male will do something that stupid and naive (testerone poisoning).

Fear and caution are odd - many people experience more fear on their second jump than the first as they start to understand the dangers and know what to expect. I can imagine that a naive person would assume parachuting to safety to be a very simple step BUT it does not explain the knowledge of 727 air stairs. And oh my god I have just given Jo the next line of her story - Duane had access to 727 "schematics" and had never jumped before it must be true cause that random bloke on the internet told me so

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&id=jDluAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Ted+B.+Braden%22+special+forces&q=%22Ted+B.+Braden%22#search_anchor


"The men parachuted, using smoke jumper techniques to land in the tree-studded terrain of the Annamites. Another Project Delta Green Beret, an Army sergeant named Ted B. Braden, who had been a pioneer in high-altitude, low-opening(HALO) parachute methods..."

Book is "The Blood Road" by John Prados, published 1998.

The Annamite Range is a mountain range of eastern Indochina, which extends approximately 1100 km (700 miles) through Laos, Vietnam

[snowmman 3]

Yes, Cooper could have had no skills and knowledge and done the hijacking. That's always a possibility.
However, that also means there's nothing for us to theorize about.

So I'm comfortable with saying, the only reasonable discussion, assumes Cooper had some skills, and he lived.

It might not be true, but any other discussion ends quick.

[snowmman 3]

Get this.
He did some competitive skydiving in 1962.

Last paragraph on this page
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1962/1962%20-%202208.html

"Scottish Parachuting. A US Army parachutist, Allan Tyre, won the Scottish Open Championships at Perth on September 15. Runner-up was Sgt. Ted Braden, also of the US Army; and third place went to Dr Charles Roberson, president of the Scottish Parachute club"

This makes sense, given the claimed number of free fall jumps Braden had in his resume for Africa (hundreds) in 1966. (he claimed 695 free fall then, more if include SL)

[snowmman 3]

nigel99 said "Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old."

You don't remember who wrote down "front" do you?

We don't know what Cooper said.
We know what the stews wrote down.
Does that change anything in your mind?

[snowmman 3]

Cousin Brucie, successful recon as usual with Plaster. I'm really, really impressed!

I think what happens, is that as you display some skill, you get sent on the more hazardous ops now.

So You got to talk to Ted B. Braden. I think this 80 year old in Niles, Ohio might be him. But can't find a phone. Got to get more detail on his the SF Braden's age. Maybe the Ramparts article would have it? will see if I can get a copy of it.

If he was competing for US Army in skydiving in 1962, that's pretty interesting. He said he had 14 years military, in 1966, so he must go back a ways. I'm thinking maybe his age is about right? A lot of freefall experience in the early '60s....

If 80 now (born 1928) then 43 in 1971.

[nigel99 528]

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nigel99 said "Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old."

You don't remember who wrote down "front" do you?

We don't know what Cooper said.
We know what the stews wrote down.
Does that change anything in your mind?

You are right and it could be that he "dumbed" it down, or even the old chinese whispers.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

blowup of the cover attached.
references article inside

"A Green Beret turns Mercenary in the Congo"

(near bottom left)

attached

(edit) The cover is John Lennon, which makes it a collectible.

[snowmman 3]

Ancestry.com has the page, but they're down for the evening..

text says the following, which suggests a photo of him jumping
"full spread quo[sic] posit[sic]"

Interesting that he travelled Europe, (Scotland) maybe for competitions???

Subscription - Stars and Stripes Newspaper, Europe,... - Ancestry.com - May 28, 1961
Sgt Ted B Braden exits in the full spread quo posit J WEEKE By BOB H GREABELL S S Staff Writer S S Photos by TONY EVANOSKI LINDBERGH WE quo has been cha ..."

[Orange1 0]

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By the Way - Duane seemed very knowledgable of politics and conflicts - and to me it was not interesting - hence I was naive regarding many of the things he spoke of....I should have been listening and more curious about his knowledge of these things.

With all due respect, Jo, if you were "naive" about these things you would not know if he actually was knowledgeable or not - spouting off about things and thinking you know the way everything works, does not make you knowledgeable. A critical ear is needed to truly judge that. I come across people like that all the time (we call them armchair economists).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Brucie said "then appeared in Africa as a mercenary."

So this was South Africa or ??

Orange1: who was hiring US mercenaries in Africa in the '60s???
Or was he the only one??

Bruce, well done on following up on Braden.

Snow, I can't say for sure but Africa was probably a hotbed for mercenaries in the 60s - a lot of countries were gaining independence, or gunning for it (literally). I've mentioned Congo before as an example, and as an area where we know CIA was very active, Equatorial Guinea has also been mentioned, must have been plenty other "opportunities".

Edit: just seen your follow up posts so you have some ideas. I see you even found a link to Mad Mike Hoare.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Brucie said "then appeared in Africa as a mercenary."

So this was South Africa or ??

Orange1: who was hiring US mercenaries in Africa in the '60s???
Or was he the only one??

Bruce, well done on following up on Braden.

Snow, I can't say for sure but Africa was probably a hotbed for mercenaries in the 60s - a lot of countries were gaining independence, or gunning for it (literally). I've mentioned Congo before as an example, and as an area where we know CIA was very active, Equatorial Guinea has also been mentioned, must have been plenty other "opportunities".

Edit: just seen your follow up posts so you have some ideas. I see you even found a link to Mad Mike Hoare.

Orange1: so if you've digested all the Braden posts I made...(sorry for the lack of focus..I was just posting as I found stuff)..

It's quite an amazing story. I didn't get the 1961 photo, but it's probably face down anyhow.

It'd be good to get his exact age and height.

But remember how you felt good that theorizing about it, and discovering that someone like Waugh existed made you feel good about your thinking.

I'm thinking Braden might actually be a better psych profile match than Waugh.

He mentioned in his article a key motivation - money. He didn't appreciate the low pay he got in Vietnam (I believe that's what he said in his article?)

He apparently dropped out of sight. None of the SOG guys kept track of him...I guess since he deserted, he became a "black sheep" anyhow...and probably wouldn't brag about his SF background.

It's interesting they cut him lose (no jail or charges) even after he was grabbed for desertion.

Be really nice to get a face photo of him circa 1966 or whenever he was in SOG.

It's really interesting how there's some mention of him pushing HALO stuff? Don't know if that's true. ..he did have HUGE experience...(see the 1962 competition in Scotland) ...I wonder if this was the insertion of Vietnamese teams into North Vietnam in smokejumper suits or other indigineous jumps (other than the 5 combat HALO jumps we've described).

If Ckret was here, he could tell us if Ted had been investigated. But then again, Ckret never told us anything. And he might be busy looking at comic books under Tom's SEM.

[snowmman 3]

Orange1's comment about Mad Mike Hoare got me to the wikipedia entry. Quite amazing set of stories, worth reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hoare

from the story about the coup attempt (S.A):
"Hoare's men still had their weapons and Hoare asked the captain if he would allow the door to be opened so they could ditch the weapons over the sea before they returned to South Africa, but the captain laughed at Hoare's out-of-date knowledge on how pressurized aircraft functioned and told him it would not be possible."

also:
"One of the soldiers, an American veteran of the U.S. – Vietnam War was found not guilty of hijacking, for being seriously wounded in the firefight, and had been loaded aboard while sedated.[2] Many of the other mercenaries were quietly released after three months in their own prison wing."

The coup attempt:
"In 1978, Seychelles exiles in South Africa, acting in behalf of ex-president James Mancham, discussed with South African Government officials launching a coup d'état against the new president France-Albert René. The military option had been decided in Washington, D.C., after concerns for United States access to its new military base in Diego Garcia island, and the determination that René was not corruptible in favour of the Americans.

Associates of Mancham contacted Hoare, then in South Africa as a civilian resident, to fight alongside fifty-three other mercenary soldiers, including South African special forces (Recces), former Rhodesian soldiers, and ex-Congo mercenaries"

It'll be interesting to get the name of this Vietnam vet mentioned. I'll probably dig it up tonight, unless someone beats me to it.

[georger 247]

two back plus two front (chest), makes no sense, unless you're a jumper.

[georger 247]

I guess I don't follow the reasoning that just because he knew jumpers, he would be motivated to hijack a plane and get away by jumping. Seems a stretch? Can you expand? He wanted money and he hatched the plan based on what he had heard others talk about? Or he was a wannabe jumper and figured he could jump out at night in the rain, for first jump? And didn't hesitate?

[snowmman 3]

You have to read the Mad Mike Hoare link above to understand the story....

But here's what really happened.

This story claims Kevin Beck screwed the pooch.

In late 1979 he was recruited by Mike Hoare to take part in the attempted coup of the Seychelles.

He got drunk on the plane taking the mercenaries to the Seychelles. Upon going through customs he went through the red channel instead of the green no declare.

A weapon was found in the bottom of his bag thus started the shoot out in the air terminal by all the other mercenaries who had been on the plane, that led to the failed attempt.

And that's what happened. (the wikipedia entry has the story slightly different, but could align with the above)

[georger 247]

I believe most parachutists even those with only first jump experience would associate a front and back parachute as a "set" i.e they would know that the reserve went on the front and the main on the back.

[snowmman 3]

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I guess I don't follow the reasoning that just because he knew jumpers, he would be motivated to hijack a plane and get away by jumping. Seems a stretch? Can you expand? He wanted money and he hatched the plan based on what he had heard others talk about? Or he was a wannabe jumper and figured he could jump out at night in the rain, for first jump? And didn't hesitate?

None of the above. Experienced jumpers here have
been specific: (a) Jumper experienced would know
the chutes, (b) know the odds, (c) would select
based on background of experience...

[snowmman 3]

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I believe most parachutists even those with only first jump experience would associate a front and back parachute as a "set" i.e they would know that the reserve went on the front and the main on the back.

I tend to agree. Non jumpers would take it as a "set".
Examples was the FAA Psychiatrist. Two sets = he's
going to take a hostage out with him, ie. set implies
intended action plan ...

[georger 247]

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nigel99 said "Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old."

You don't remember who wrote down "front" do you?

We don't know what Cooper said.
We know what the stews wrote down.
Does that change anything in your mind?

We dont know whose terminology it is. His or Schafner's. Front/back. Sounds like the stews?
But the notion of "two sets" is preserved. It does
not say models of chutes!

[edit] and he did not specific where the chutes were
to come from, if he knew the area of SEA so well.

[snowmman 3]

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two back plus two front (chest), makes no sense, unless you're a jumper.

or unless you are simply following a script...

Remember, the unanimous opinion of experienced
jumpers here is any reserve was unnecessary (beside
the point). That experienced jumper would not take
a reserve...

We actually never asked: why would an experienced jumper chose to take a reserve ... as a pillow?

[georger 247]

The Vietnam HALO jumpers jumped with reserves, at night, in the rain...why don't you question why they jumped with reserves???

[snowmman 3]

(edit) more detail:
Hoare and 43 mercenaries were disguised as tourists: rugby players and members of a beer-drinking group called the Ancient Order of Frothblowers.

(edit) Also see Time magazine for this, report of Hoare's trial
august 9, 1982
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925646,00.html


see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Froth_Blowers

Apparently it's true? (the use as a cover during the Seychelles thing)