DB Cooper

[georger 247]

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good numbers georger.

I did a rough calc a while ago, where I assumed Cooper could spot the lights of vancouver, and react within a certain amount of time.
I think that would make it easier to hit the columbia, (which would have been an undesired goal)

but your premises all seem sound.

I don't know if Jerry would disagree. Jerry does want Cooper in the water. Why not the Columbia? Jerry?

Coming from you. I appreciate that. Its a rough
calc and could be refined for any given flight path.
Probability can be applied to any number of situations including odds of a corpse entering the Columbia via the Lewis then being intercepted by a passing ship
and snagged.

By taking only the segment of a flight path where Cooper could have bailed and comparing the amount
of land mass to water area under the dz grid at any
moment in time, a hard calculation of probability
can be made, very easily. There is so little water
area to land mass available with the plane moving
to swiftly, the time window for hitting a specific water target is brief. The odds improve dramatically as one moves east of V23 into the Washougal tributary
system, but delivery from the Washougal tributaries to Tina Bar specifically is problematic. Hydrologist Bradley knew this also.

The problem now is Palmer's work at Tina Bar vrs.
Tom's new measurements.

It may have escaped notice, but Jerry seems to
agree with Tom and thinks Palmer's work was wrong.
Perhaps Jerry could explain why he thinks Palmer
is wrong?

(I knew this would happen! We are right back to the central issue of core sampling, which Palmer did not do).

[BruceSmith 3]

I contacted the family of Theodore M. Braden, and spoke iwth his adult daughter. She claims no knowledge of Theordore B, or of any relation that was a paratrooper in Vietnam.

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Bruce - we appreciate the efforts!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I contacted the family of Theodore M. Braden, and spoke iwth his adult daughter. She claims no knowledge of Theordore B, or of any relation that was a paratrooper in Vietnam.

That's the 49 year old guy in Ohio. yeah, it makes no sense to be bothering those folks. They have no connection to Ted B. Braden.

(edit) P.S. There are boatloads of Bradens in the country, so we can't just take potshots.

[Orange1 0]

?? same guy??

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1962/1962%20-%202208.html

1962: "Scottish Parachuting A US Army parachutist, Allan Tyre, won the Scottish Open Championships at Perth on September 15. Runner-up was Sgt Ted Braden, also of the US Army; and third place went to Dr Charles Robertson, president of the Scottish Parachute Club."

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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?? same guy??

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1962/1962%20-%202208.html

1962: "Scottish Parachuting A US Army parachutist, Allan Tyre, won the Scottish Open Championships at Perth on September 15. Runner-up was Sgt Ted Braden, also of the US Army; and third place went to Dr Charles Robertson, president of the Scottish Parachute Club."

I posted that already. It was the Flight International article.
I already said he was competing and traveling in Europe.
Hmm. you guys really do only read some of what I post.
I'm shattered. absolutely shattered.

:)

(edit) my post was here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3639145;search_string=scottish;#3639145

(edit) all the info aligns with the trail to Leaping Lena, and SF and Africa. So I'm assuming it's the same guy. Remember the article for Ramparts talks about his long jumping experience. (high number of claimed freefall).. I guess it's possible there are two Ted Bradens then. But I'm assuming it's all the same guy, since it seems to align.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger: No1 cooper did not see any light's: Why? not the Columbia. Excelent question If cooper had landed in the columbia. Evidence would had been discovered much sooner or he would have washed all the way to the ocean either way nothing would have been found on Tina's Bar.Now! a columbia river landing would have been his safest course. In that time frame, water jumps was fastly becoming a desired sport. The military even put on demonstration's For instance When local comunities had there Parades or discovery day's and many different attractions. They would, and still do, call on the military to participate. Back in 1974 Ft lewis was contacted to sponsor one of these event's.They did so by sending a jump team to demonstrate a water jump in the pudget sound. Thing's like this is a large interest to children.(Snowmman it is a fact and the reason I know is because I coordinated it. The jump.) Point being no way the columbia river could have been the drop zone. The added factor that the columbia river has many deep holes in the main stream,as deep as 100ft +. If a columbia river landing was made or if someone had thrown a bag of money into the river it would have ended up in one of these pot hole's in the channel.Unless attached to a floation device, like a body . If attached to a floation device it would have ended up in the pacific ocean Jerry

[snowmman 3]

And I've posted about a jump demonstration where the jumper drowned in the Columbia. Further east. I believe in later '70s.

single events don't prove anything.

(edit) I've also posted about suicide jumpers into the Columbia. And that guy who crashed his plane. The places their bodies were or weren't found, disagrees with the Jerry Dogma.

[Orange1 0]

Sorry Snow you posted SO much stuff.. and i just didn't have time to go through every single thing.

You would also have found a Ted Braden serving in WW2 in Africa but I am assuming that is not the same guy.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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And I've posted about a jump demonstration where the jumper drowned in the Columbia. Further east. I believe in later '70s.

single events don't prove anything.

They don't. Some jumpers get object fixation and hit the only hazard for miles around. Others don't. (also ref back to Georger's earlier post about pysch vs distributions.)

Didn't we discuss that Cooper probably wouldn't have been able to see exactly where he was landing till he hit the ground/river/tree whatever? i.e. if he did land in a river it was more likely a random accident than object fixation (which is what i think 377 was tring to get at with his post about parachutes attracting hazards).

edit for Georger: also meant to say - you cannot always divorce pyschology from "distribution" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_finance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Sorry Snow you posted SO much stuff.. and i just didn't have time to go through every single thing.

You would also have found a Ted Braden serving in WW2 in Africa but I am assuming that is not the same guy.

Yeah, not the same guy. too old.
The key thing about the chain of knowledge about Braden

Duncan says Braden was at Leaping Lena.
The Der Spiegel article is from Braden, and the time frame is about right to say he's the Braden at Leaping Lena. He quotes a high number of free fall jumps for a military guy at that time period.

Says he's very experienced, to me.

So that aligns with him competing then. Also he said he had 14 years military experience. So that aligns.

The age (which we don't know yet) roughly aligns with the Ted B. Braden we know exists that was born in 1928.

So that's where we are.

There's only one Ted B. Braden I can find that's roughly of the right age ((edit) and I guess still alive)..This one would have been 43 on 11/24/71

(edit) Most of the references I see have him as Sgt.
He must have had some time below Sgt. Don't know what he was when he deserted.

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange*1111111111111111.Hi , just usiing your post to add info and say hi #1.Current,s in the columbia change durring season's as I have previousily posted.For the money to have floated upstream over five mile's is impossible. Yes it can travel short distance's do to current's and wake draft. But not that great a distance. To think that a bag of money could have caught on to a prop of a big ship is! with out a doubt the dumbest thing I have ever heard. A two year old child even Know's better. They learn this by playing in the bath tube with rubber duckies with the drain unpluged.Simple simon says What can drop and go south with the flow will all though it may take a step backwards. it will still will move forward a greater distance.Common Sense. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Wrong answer. The exact location's of entry varie's and or suicide techniques, in all cases.Consider this All Info released to the public is not correct some Info is alway's secret.Why? Death's of this nature alway's has a suspicion of Homicide. Even if it is observed by witneses. The persons family could have been threatned orther's person's.They could have been under the influence of drug's or peppered.Could have had a mental problem that could have allowed the person to be controlled. Either way thing's of this nature is not set in stone.Neither or we! and our thought's! Catch my drift. Jerry

[georger 247]

single events don't prove anything.

(edit) I've also posted about suicide jumpers into the Columbia. And that guy who crashed his plane. The places their bodies were or weren't found, disagrees with the Jerry Dogma.

This is a reply to you and Jerry and Orange. A few
remarks and then some serious stuff.

Im sitting here chuckling. Jerry Dogma?
Jerry has been at this a long time. His views are
hard-won and tested, so far as he is concerned.
A little gumbly but sincere 100% and loyal as can be.
Jerry will be out there on the ramparts asap chasing
down anything that comes his way, sometimes even
if he believes its a waste of time. And Jerry checks everything out with Ralph and others, just to be
convinced in his own mind. Jerry hates mistakes!
Even his own. Jerry makes mental notes on
everything and if he knows you are sincere he will
check things out, often in spite or not wanting to.
This is the Jerry Ive come to know and respect and
admire. Dogma? Dont we all have some?

Orange: so far as we know Cooper bailed blind
into turbulence, above a cloud deck, probably Moonlight above, and with a chute that could not
really be directed? Under those conditions I dont
know that psychology would have a whole lot to
do with anything. Almost comparable to dropping
a cow out the back of that 727 ?

Jerry: Damnit! I would send sweet corn and tomatoes
but there's no good way to smoke them! I
suppose I could send a refrigerated truck but is it
really worth it? The neighbors might accuse you
of receiving corpses for float testing with Tom, and
then we would all be in a world of hurt! We could
say it was Ralph and Carr's bright idea, and I even
have witnesses I can drum up!!!! So, no refrigerated
truck with Iowa produce is coming. End of story.

Yea Ive heard this limp excuse about "holes" before.
Holes - Schmoles! What have holes to do with anything
in this case. There is no proof holes affected anything.
Could of, might of, should of have nothing to do with
it.

"Out to sea" is a good out. Wipes the slate clean.
Lets FBI agents sleep at might. Lets Tom sleep at
night. Let's Jerry sleep at night.

Im trying to think of something really smart to say
here but cant come up with anything, so Im switching
NPR on - damn. Its all dogma!

[JerryThomas 0]

Brillant comment. Your expertise Knowedge, reasoning and common sense is inspiring. You sound like my wife. Perfect. Jerry

[georger 247]

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Brillant comment. Your expertise Knowedge, reasoning and common sense is inspiring. You sound like my wife. Perfect. Jerry

I cant be bothered! Im going out to paint cows.
Nothing else left to do!

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger. Your a natural born leader. Your post was different. And enjoyable. At least your honest . With out question. However. your still a Yankee. But so am I.Jerry

[Orange1 0]

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Brillant comment. Your expertise Knowedge, reasoning and common sense is inspiring. You sound like my wife. Perfect. Jerry

I cant be bothered! Im going out to paint cows.
Nothing else left to do!

lol - georger, if you re-read my post, you'll see i said it would have been random in this instance

bedtime here ...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger! Please paint one bull cow blue for me . We'll call it Pauls blue ox"s off spring/ great great grand son. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Brillant comment. Your expertise Knowedge, reasoning and common sense is inspiring. You sound like my wife. Perfect. Jerry

hmm..you're dulling my fantasy image involving the stiletto heels.
I'll stick with mine.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman: Shelly read that. Her comments were?

[snowmman 3]

Jerry: I was just joking.

Hey found another book. Author was in RT Colorado, but after Braden (it was 1969)

Braden is mentioned on page 156 along with some other names from Braden's time in RT Colorado.

I'll post that. Jim Hetrick knew Braden. So maybe we can find Jim Hetrick too?

"Running Recon: A Photo Journey with SOG Special Ops Along the Ho Chi Minh Trail"
# Hardcover: 458 pages
# Publisher: Paladin Press; illustrated edition edition (January 2004)
# ISBN-10: 1581604262
# ISBN-13: 978-1581604269


A combination memoir and combat photography book, Running Recon reflects both the author's experiences in the top-secret Studies and Observation Group (SOG) from April 1969 to April 1970, and the collective experiences of SOG veterans in general. What sets it apart from other Vietnam books is its wealth of more than 700 photographs, many never before published, from the author's personal collection and those of his fellow SOG veterans.

Frank Greco served in SOG from 1969–1970 in Command and Control Central as part of Recon Team Colorado.

[snowmman 3]

from "Running Recon: A Photo Journey with SOG Special Ops Along the Ho Chi Minh Trail" by Frank Greco, 2004

page 156
available here:
http://www.amazon.com/Running-Recon-Photo-Journey-Special/dp/1581604262#reader


I was able to locate some of the early team members of ST [ed. Spike Team] Colorado, the earliest one being Sgt. Jim Hetrick, who was on the team in early 1966. He and S.Sgt. Ted Braden had come from Kham Duc to Kontum, where they were joined by S.Sgt. J.D. Bath [Ed. Plaster already connects Braden, Hetrick and Bath, also]

They traveled around to the local villages of the various Montagnard tribes looking for recruits to start the team with. They had decided form the team from different tribes so that tribal pride or rivalry would prevent the recruits from running away.

This theory actually worked out for them; J.D. Bath remembers at least one firefight with the enemy where the 'Yards were duck-walking from cover to cover, firing back at the enemy, as they yelled at their teammates: "You run, Jarai - I stay and fight," or "You run, Bahnar - I stay and fight."

It should be noted that other team leaders preferred to have their indigeneous members all from the same village to avoid tribal friction that could interfere with the team's functioning.

Soon joining the team after it was reformed were Sgts. Jerry Lee and William Grimes...
...
By late 1966 the team was led by One-Zero Lt. George Sisler, along with Sergeants Bath and Lee. In January 1967 they opened up the radio relay site atop a mountain peak in southern Laos (eventually known as Leghorn).

The next team members I located were from the fall of 1967. At this time the Americans on the team were S. Sgts. Paul Douglas (the One-Zero), Fred Crane (the One-One), and Mel Trafford (the One-Two).
..
From late 1967 I was unable to trace RT Colorado until March 1969...

[ltdiver 3]

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Parachutes are trouble magnets. They are drawn to hazards. Want to find a lake? Drop a parachute within a few miles of one. It will land dead center. They are also drawn to barbed wire, hanger buildings and parked cars.

Yep, true everywhere: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/08/06/BUAI194H4K.DTL&object=%2Fc%2Fpictures%2F2009%2F08%2F05%2Ftr-stuckchute_0500451988.jpg (and in case it didn't link, see attachment below).

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Houses do not parachute.

Ya Ha...! http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/up/

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[snowmman 3]

has been [was?] president of the Special Operations Association for fifteen years.
That organization is here
http://www.specialoperations.org/contents.html

A picture of Jim is attached from 2008.

I have a phone number for Jim, I'll forward to Bruce.

Bruce: the guy deserves a lot of respect. You should mention you've talked with Waugh and Plaster.