DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

Interesting how attempts are made to 'lure' people back into previous patterns by someone who previously claimed to be a victim. But I much prefer the current format
377, you'll probably know this - is it the B52 that has landing gear that can be turned to face landing direction? I was reading something about crosswind landings the other day and it mentioned a military plane, i think B52 but not sure, which used that to help control landing in a strong crosswind. Strange how this technology has not been adapted to commercial airliners?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Your aviation knowledge is impressive Orange. The B 52 does have unique steerable crosswind landing gear and it was used frequently. It was added complexity and weight but was very useful. I think cost kept it out of airliners.

When I worked at Hughes Aircraft we developed an highly effective fire suppression for armored vehicles such as tanks. It used multiple spectral fire sensors and fast chemically propelled turbo pumps to flood a cabin with Halon then evcacuated it when the fire was extinguished. You could fire a high energy anti tank artillery round, pierce the armor and a fuel tank, flood the cabin with flaming fuel and in miliseconds the fire would be snuffed. Unless a crewman was hit by projectiles he would survive. Efforts to market the system for airliners fell flat. It would have added about 600 pounds to a 727 sized plane thus reduced range or payload and that always ended the discussion. Economics trumps safety sometimes.

I too like the new environment where we let Jo be Jo and just go about our business.

If there was a USAF SAGE radar at McChord why wasn't there a very accurate plot of the flight path? F 106s were scrambled as chase planes as I recall. They get telemetry from SAGE which can control their autopilots for a ground controlled automatic intercept. Hughes made that F 106 system which was called the MA 1.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

If there was a USAF SAGE radar at McChord why wasn't there a very accurate plot of the flight path? F 106s were scrambled as chase planes as I recall. They get telemetry from SAGE which can control their autopilots for a ground controlled automatic intercept. Hughes made that F 106 system which was called the MA 1.

377

Good recap. Here's the historical record as I know
it.

So far as I know no radar data has ever been released by the FBI, and none was ever released here by Larry Carr? The only exception to this is Jerry who claims to know about #305's radar data
through conversations he has had with H which is
the basis for his search in the Washougal.

Sluggo worked with the PI transcripts and the
FBI flight map presented by Agent Larry and extrapolated a data set from that... see attached. Sluggo felt this data set was tantamount to having radar data and Ckret never said anything here to
contradiction that notion - however, Ckret never
confirmed the notion either! Ckret did support
and applaud Sluggo's work however, it may well
be that Agent Carr has never seen any radar data
for flight #305 either, if it exists.

Everything above supports the notion no radar
data has ever been released by the FBI.

Sluggo went forward with his data set and presented
several possible flitht path interpretations.

Tom Kaye used Sluggo's data set and independent
wind data and developed his own version of a flight path map, but Tom has never presented his version publically. Tom Kaye is a lisensed pilot, as Sluggo
is.

Snowmman developed several versions of
possible flight path scenarios ...

Others including several engineers have worked on developing the flight path for Flight #305 but their
work has never been made public - or mentioned here until just now. These gentlemen communicated with the FBI concerning this matter.

Myers and Dvorak claimed the whole FBI Cooper
case was botched by "H-bach" and no flight data
ever existed. The Myers-Dvorak contention seems
very unlikely and exaggerated. It is worth noting
that Myers & Dvorak then turned around and relied
on and complimented "H-bach" on other information
Himmelsbach conveyed to Myers, which Myers then
used to support a case against Mayfield!

My conjecture is a radar data set for Flight #305
was collected and preserved from several
different directions by several agencies and companies and is probably being preserved as a part of the Cooper Case, still active.

Jerry Thomas claims the flight path went miles east
of V23 and skirted the Washougal, then crossed
the Columbia at Troutdale, then proceded ?????

On another point you raised, the crew did search
the back prior to landing at Reno - its in the PI
transcript.

*It is perhaps significant that nobody close to
this case who dealt with flight path matters, ever
spoke publically about the matter. Nor have they
ever been interviewed so far as I know! (Where
have been the Journalistas?) The body of people
who dealt directly with these issues were in the
military, at NWA, Boeing, . . . . .

The closest anyone has ever come to trying to
nail these matters down are 377, Sluggo, and
Snowmman who deserve praise for trying...

The Cooper case is very highly dependent on
technical data, flight path, radar data, etc.
The FBI is very much aware of that fact!

[snowmman 3]

First off, those Russians screwed me royally.

They knew they had a plan with Obama to stop missile deployments in the works, and market demand was going to disappear, leading to excess capacity in manufacturing.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-russia-missiles20-2009sep20,0,7351646.story

I could have gotten half off, if I had known. Damn, I knew we needed an economist there when the vodka started flowing.

2nd: in terms of what data the FBI had or didn't have. You can decide based on their actions. There are many reports of where they searched or flew planes to "search the flight path".
Himmelsbach recounts flyovers of the "flight path" with some amount of leeway on either side (he mentions a flight with 3 planes)

So: if they had radar, and it pointed to what Jerry says, they would have flown over the Washougal.

Now you could argue, the radar data came in "late" for some reason...i.e. needed significant post-processing. That's a stretch.
Anything that was available, should have been available pretty quickly.

Any washougal theory, that allows for accurate flight path data, has to come up with a reason why they didn't do washougal flyovers in the searches afterwards?

If the theory instead is: The radar data is just wrong...then that's interesting.

(edit) how come no one responded to my trivia question about warning horn in the cockpit, for flaps = 30 and state of the landing gear? (or 10,000 ft pressure) for 727 in 1971? Was the answer obvious, or just non-interesting?

[snowmman 3]

I have been authorized by House subcommittee to release the following information.

I have outlined the importance of Seattle ARTCC (Air Route Traffic Control Center) before, with their long range radar capabilities.

Their transcript is on page 68 thru 74 of the Carr-released transcripts.

I have mentioned how the various "positions" reported were likely operators in front of radio and likely radar scopes.

The positions:
SEA R2
SEA R5
SEA R6
SEA R10

The new information is that the Chief of Seattle ARTCC had his name disguised.

In the transcript, (attached page), you can see that he's named as "Gerald H. Oaterkamp"

However, if you analyze his signature, which has an "a" in Gerald, and an "a" in "kamp"...those a's are not the same as the supposed "a" in "Oater"

Looking at his signature, his name is "Osterkamp".

So the question is: "Why was Osterkamp's name obfuscated? Why did Osterkamp agree to the obfuscation? Was he given an offer he couldn't refuse?"

Gerald H. Osterkamp held the key to the flight path and why it was covered up.

You can review the attached, or the original transcript, to see that I'm correct.

Also, even though the typewriter print is far from perfect, it is clear that someone typed "Oaterkamp", in a successful attempt to keep journalists from the source of the truth.

I don't know if Osterkamp was assassinated. There is no evidence to prove he wasn't. I don't know if Duane was involved, although supposedly Duane was a crack shot, even without glasses.

(edit) The probable assassination took place this year in Florida, May 17, 2009

[snowmman 3]

I didn't bother interviewing Dawson about the flight path, because I knew he would lie.

Some important new stuff from this editor who talked to Dan.
Ellensburg Daily Record
Mar 3, 1980
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19800303&id=YTAQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lo8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5389,3778824
(attached)

Notice that Dan says he was "ordered". Probably came from the Oval Office. Or associates of Duane.

"In 1971, [Dan] Dawson was an Air Force major and senior director at 25th NORAD headquarters at McChord Field. He was the one ordered to develop an operational plan to deal with the Cooper caper. "This was the first situation where the hijacker was to bail out with his goodies so we had no plan at the time to deal with that."

Dan apparently wanted to supply Cooper with parachutes with "chaff"....
also
"Dawson also briefed the pilots of two F-106 fighter planes and scrambled them - they were to hug in close to the plane on which Coooper was a passenger.

Unfortunately, the national command for NORAD vetoed both orders..."

[Orange1 0]

Csn you honeatly asy you have never made that typo miatske?

-----------
Definition of typo:
typographical error
n.
A mistake in printing, typesetting, or typing, especially one caused by striking an incorrect key on a keyboard.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Csn you honeatly asy you have never made that typo miatske?

-----------
Definition of typo:
typographical error
n.
A mistake in printing, typesetting, or typing, especially one caused by striking an incorrect key on a keyboard.

oh drat.
You mean there's no government conspiracy?
Actually in looking at it more, I think it is an "s"...i misread it first time.

Stand Down. No Go..The operation is No Go! Mistake! No Go!

I was mostly curious if that guy was still alive. I've not been able to find him though.

Led to me finding the second guy's claims which were interesting. He'd be interesting to talk to also, if still alive.

(edit) Nope. Apparently Dawson died before 1989 sometime...dead men tell no tales
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fjkQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WY8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5404,1168715&dq=dan-dawson+state+representative+washington

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange 1, snowmman. Geoger and other's I have read all your post's. I have given all of you plenty of time to review and comsider my last post and prove me wrong. Orange 1 was the first to agree, She is very experienced in her field . Geoger is also very Knowledgeable ,and also agree's with some reservation's! Snowmman has alway's callenged every thing. Maybe he just like's to be different . Or in this case be proven wrong with out a shadow of a doubt. At any rate you all were afected by my last post. The truth is I realy believe, I'm right and have proven it to my self and other's with out a shadow of a doubt. I also was instumental in proving the most excepted theory that the money came down the washougal tributarries. The army corp's of engineer's was the first to submit this theory, all I did was confirm it. I have allso searched and studied every theory possible. and in my opinion proven that the Idea that any one could have survived this jump was impossible. There have been many claim's By other's that they new who Cooper was. No one has recieved any more Phone call's ,maill . of people claiming they new who Cooper was than I have. Some were very promissing. But all turned out to be fraudelent . I can count at least ten more promising than the one from The most popular or dramatized on this site. Still none have had the most gramatical change with fictional gain as one. Still I stick to my thought's and theories to include the result's of my research. and ground pounding on site searches. As the reason for my Finding's and conclusion's in this case. I will continue to search any Ideas or option's in this case untill it is solved.My wife is very suportive as is my son. They have also helped and have promissed to continue to do so. A close friend by the name of Brian Allen that also has assisted me on my searche's will also continue this search. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

I have the most posts to the DZ.com thread on Cooper.
Even skyjack71 can't take that away from me.
I mention it to people at Starbucks. So far, no free coffee.

Jerry: So your theory is that the money in a bag travelled down the Washougal, but the body and the rig stayed behind around the Washougal? I doubt you're saying the money travelled without the bag?

Why did the bag and money move, but not the body and rig?

I guess I can't understand the rationale that would lead you to do a ground search in the area you're talking about, regardless of the flight path question.

[JerryThomas 0]

If anyone wishe's to Email me personally or request my home phone number or cell number. Feel free to do so . My E Mail address is ( jwt1969combetvets@yahoo.com). Nothing that is emailed to me or question's asked will ever be posted or discussed with anyone or disclosed for any reason. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jerry Thomas claims the flight path went miles east
of V23 and skirted the Washougal, then crossed
the Columbia at Troutdale, then proceded ?????

This is confusing - if the plane flew over Troutdale which is east of Portland, but West of Washougal - this supports Jerry's search East of Washougal and his contention that the bag was carried to the Columbia by the Washougal River...It also supports the area that Duane took me too - below the Camp Bonneville Reservation and then along the power lines to the point it intersects with the lines going South to the Marina.

NOTE: I do not believe the fight pattern was over Troutdale...but question why Jerry would support that particual flight pattern.

In relation to this: A poster from the past contended that Cooper would have to walk though Camas per the landing area I proposed, but Cooper did not go into Camas.

A 1970 map shows this power line going South at SE 23rd along the T1N R3E WM on the West and T1N R4E WM on the East. The powerline going south at that point shows sparce housing along that line to the Marina. The population of homes along that line were easily avoided by someone walking the line - especially if he was wearing a foresty uniform or dressed like a farmer. A walker under the line would have been ignored as no one was looking for Cooper in that area.

This power line goes directly to the Marina near the Port of Camas-Washougal. Now to set this up - on the South side of the Columbia is the Sandy River which goes dead on to the East end of the Troutdale airport landing strip which is near the Pacific Union railroad tracks. Therefore if Jerry is correct about the Troutdale route then it suports everything I have told the FBI since 1996. I believe wind drift took Cooper to his landing zone from other proposed flight paths and the plane was NOT as far East as Jerry contends.

Cooper actually landed in Washington somewhere within walking distance of the Bonneville Reservation. This was all shared with Jerry in 1997, but I did not have maps and could not make him understand me -and I had NO maps to work from.
How far he walked to reach that point near the Reservation I do not know.

Duane did in 1979 show me areas N.W. of the Bonneville area - and below Scotts Corner. This is the area of the fire towers (or lookout towers)..he took me to and a railroad track. What these places meant to Weber and how he knew about them - (the FBI HAS provided no answers and I could only guess), until recently undisclosed information was obtained.

I still think it would be of value if someone would find the paper which reported the incidental article about the missing boat at the Marina. That day was the beginning of the END.

In 1996 or 1997 for whatever reason Jerry was dead positive that Cooper could NOT have landed anywhere near this area and now he is supporting a Troutdale flight pattern. Yet, he came forward disputing my memories of the trip in 1979 and insisted there WAS no way and that I was in the Washougal / LaCames area and that Duane took me back to the Columbia.

Not one time did he listen to me about the power lines and that wide body of water and that knob (small mountain or large hill). I told Jerry, Duane took me to a hill from where he pointed out the merging of powerlines and pipelines although I could see nothing, but woods. That point is North of Lake LaCames - so why did Jerry dispute my every word?

What is illogical? The bag and Cooper going down the Washougal! Even if Cooper was separated from his bag - the bag could not have gone down the river intact and survived 8 yrs. If you don't believe me make a trip to WA and go to the Washougal... The river goes from wide to narrow (depending on the weather) and with lots of large rocks. When I was there the water was moving very rapidly - no way would I be in that river. I understand the Washougal has its quieter times, but both time I saw it - it was raging (not quiet).

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman: This is a excelent question. However has a very simple answer. The money stayed within the bag for a long period of time. The money was seperated from the body after impact . When impact is made thing's seperate and bounce apart. Now the bag being seperated would have rolled in the direction of down hill gravity. Over time with Rain and dry spell's Thing's dry and compact . Time passes then more storm's heaveir rain then dry spell's more compact . Then snow flood's rain movement toward's stream's or river Natural wrought . Then over time result's of natural occurance's take place. I believe the best way to explain this is. Adulancence to adult hood. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger My claim's have alway's been backed up with other area's of research that you or any one else could find the info That I had found in the past. For instance Noaah Goast guard The new's channels out of portland The army corp's of engineer's National weather service Map's from all to dertimine patern's and draft's. Pluss. Better Yet Geoger has all this info. I gave it to him a while back. Geoger will back me up on all this . Thank's Geoger for reminding me . Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Quote

If anyone wishe's to Email me personally or request my home phone number or cell number. Feel free to do so . My E Mail address is ( jwt1969combetvets@yahoo.com). Nothing that is emailed to me or question's asked will ever be posted or discussed with anyone or disclosed for any reason. Jerry

caveat: unless your name is Jo. Then it's used for threat potential. Yahoo!

[snowmman 3]

1) If you allow Washougal, it seems like you open up any flight path as reasonable. (because Jerry doesn't seem to have constrained the flight path beyond "somewhere around V-23")

2) I can pick a flight path farther west closer to Tena Bar, I think, and still met Jerry's criteria? (which I'm not sure are, and how they were derived)

3) I can have Cooper easily land in the Columbia (actually even with the current flight path)

4) Dredging can displace the money after N years

I can't understand, how, if someone says "Ignore the flight path"...the next step in thought is "He must have landed in the Washougal".

It doesn't make sense. It borders on insane, to me? It's like something Himmelsbach would come up with.

There must be other data steering Jerry to the Washougal. A girlfriend? Free Coffee? Donuts?

???

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman. Miss print or mistake on that post I meant Never be posted. I realy think you new that. All conversation's or email's will be kept private. Nothing discussed between anyone and my self will be made public unless released by the other party first and I have been given permission to do so prior. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman . Do as you please you will continually be wrong . Yes you have more post than any one else. Still all you have supplied is question's that has easily been answered or proven wrong and that is all you will be able to continue to do. Now It is up to you to prove any theory that you can come up with. That cooper did survive that Jump . Guess What you can't. Better people have tryed . I have tried. Go figuire And Last But not least Prove me wrong. But do it in person On location And with knowlwdge of the inviroment and condition's of this area and time frame of the year weather condition's And experience of jumping in the same condition's at the same time of year from the same altitude with the same clothing . Or just try it yourself. Let me and other's observe. I will be glad to pick up the remain's. If you Have the gut's. Never the less on the lighter side please just join me on one of my searche's . At least this way I know you will still be a alive. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

Recently U.S. Rep. Joe Wilson's "You Lie!" outburst during Obama's address to congress has resonated thru out the public figures. This continued verbal rudeness has become the norm recently. Examples - hip-hop artist Kanye West taking the mic. away from the winner to toot his own opinion and then what recently happened during a televised tennis match.

It seems Americans are entering a new phase - one in which it is OK to be a Jerk and not apply the information in a way that creates productive information.
It seems this forum could concentrate on new information and responsibility in discovering what really happened in 1971 rather than getting involved in ridiculous disputes and careless disregard for responsibility. This behaviour our younger generation is mimicking and this does not teach them to work within the system for results.

We (including myself) are an example of what the newer generations are being taught.
Our world is becoming increasingly crowded and complicated and disputes will happen.

Being a JERK isn't the Solution.
Respect and Common Decency are Solutions. If we collectively cannot talk about Cooper in an organized and polite way then perhaps this thread should come to an end.

I have tried to refrain from name calling and try to counter the Opinons and Research of others in a respectful manner. We are after all Adults not Adolesence.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowmman . Do as you please you will continually be wrong .

Yes! thanks for the permission.

[georger 244]

What is illogical? The bag and Cooper going down the Washougal! Even if Cooper was separated from his bag - the bag could not have gone down the river intact and survived 8 yrs. If you don't believe me make a trip to WA and go to the Washougal... The river goes from wide to narrow (depending on the weather) and with lots of large rocks. When I was there the water was moving very rapidly - no way would I be in that river. I understand the Washougal has its quieter times, but both time I saw it - it was raging (not quiet).

[georger 244]

Quote

Geoger My claim's have alway's been backed up with other area's of research that you or any one else could find the info That I had found in the past. For instance Noaah Goast guard The new's channels out of portland The army corp's of engineer's National weather service Map's from all to dertimine patern's and draft's. Pluss. Better Yet Geoger has all this info. I gave it to him a while back. Geoger will back me up on all this . Thank's Geoger for reminding me . Jerry

You told me about it, said you would deliver it, but
I have never received anything ???

[snowmman 3]

Jo offered "This continued verbal rudeness has become the norm recently."

I think humans have never really liked each other, when you start talking about millions of people? Doesn't history tell us that?. The thing is, we used to be well separated, kind of like animals in a zoo. Not so much any more.

Jo. I was wondering about this recent burst of breathless reports about the FBI and supposed "evidence" they have on Najibbullah Zazi. It's hard to tell if there's anything, or whether it's just FBI run amok.

But I'm amazed how breathless the references to hydrogen peroxide based explosives is...It's like people are out of touch with how many people are mixing chemicals worldwide and blowing stuff up and bragging about it.

Check out these youtube vids. These are all people playing with the stuff Zazi is accused of having something on his computer about, but no actual "stuff".

These guys all have "stuff"
And now everyone reading this post has it on their computer like Zazi.

HMTD Cap, HMTD/AN Booster 5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTkaNqLmuDk

HMTD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLZ7fcQPs9Q&feature=related

15kg ANFO with radio detonation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qG18SRmVd8

Guanylazide styphnate and picrate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci8CGC8bEA8&feature=related

15ml ethylene glycol dinitrate versus gyproc plate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg4eg6VGmcQ&feature=related

buying ammonium nitrate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlBk_98uk_Y&feature=related

true fuel air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xquGETNoRms&feature=related

150kg thermobaric
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7YJxsKD5jw&feature=channel_page

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger. True. Jerry

[georger 244]

Quote

1) If you allow Washougal, it seems like you open up any flight path as reasonable. (because Jerry doesn't seem to have constrained the flight path beyond "somewhere around V-23")

2) I can pick a flight path farther west closer to Tena Bar, I think, and still met Jerry's criteria? (which I'm not sure are, and how they were derived)

3) I can have Cooper easily land in the Columbia (actually even with the current flight path)

4) Dredging can displace the money after N years

I can't understand, how, if someone says "Ignore the flight path"...the next step in thought is "He must have landed in the Washougal".

It doesn't make sense. It borders on insane, to me? It's like something Himmelsbach would come up with.

There must be other data steering Jerry to the Washougal. A girlfriend? Free Coffee? Donuts?

???

In like manner I can have the hyjacking be a
political event, Cooper lands exactly where Sluggo suggested and walks out, years later he or an
accomplice return and bury money in a public place (right at Himmelsbach's back door!) to foster the ongoing thesis he died.