DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Here's what's funny.
Just compute surface area of water.

Which has most probability as a landing zone, if a water landing
1) Lewis River
2) Washougal
3) Columbia

Obviously Columbia. (more surface area)

So, anyone who believes Lewis or Washougal are viable DZ's, has to believe the Columbia is viable.

Because there is no data to pinpoint the jump location to exclude the Columbia.

Here's a side view again 1990 of the relevant locations for a Columbia DZ. (rotated from how we normal view it)

(edit) at the river crossing, it's .8 statute miles. While the plane was travelling around 3.8-4 statute miles/minute.
So 12 seconds or so that are critical

[georger 244]

Everyone agrees there was a fragment field. Almost
everyone agrees fragments were found at depth
(4+ inches). Everyone agrees Igram found his under
1/2-2" inches, not sitting on the surface fully exposed. The forensics on the money examined
shows inclusions which require more time than
one day to develop, and are entirely consistent
with the money being in some place (on the surface) for an extended period of time. (These forensics have yet to be published).

All of the above speak against the over-night high tide wash-in theory of Mr. Fazio.

A short term high tide wash-in theory cannot
explain the data or any piece of the data
you chose to examine, from debris field to depth aspects to condition of the money witnessed in situ
on Tina Bar.

No high tide can explain the facts. In the case of
high tides on the Columbia (especially at Tina Bar)
it is not simply a matter of water rising and falling
but currents are involved also. The geometry of
a high tide with current and debris fields high tides
leave does not fit the facts of the money find at Tina Bar.

It really is as simple as that.

[snowmman 3]

from http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9500E1DC153EE733A25757C1A9649C946897D6CF

snippet attached.

"Nothing that is small enough to pass through the 6 by 9 inch hole in the shoe can escape the powerful suction of the pipes. The most easily dredged material is gravel, the most difficult being heavy clay or rock. Of course solid rock cannot be dredged, but pieces as large as a man's head are carried through the pumps without difficulty.

Many curious things are brought to the surface by the suction pipes. Quite recently the Culebra drew ten fathoms of chain from the bottom of the bay and passed it through one of the centrifugal pumps into the bin. .. Her engineers do not yet understand how so much chain could have passed through the pumps without becoming entangled.

Not long ago the Ancon lifted a cannonball from the bottom of Limon Bay.

Fish and eels are so common that they no longer cause comment."

[Farflung 0]

Snowman,

Some very compelling dialogue and analysis about the moolah from the rivah.

My silly post was a simple view form a simple person (that's me). How far can an 8 year old dig on a snow covered shore? How far would an 8 year old dig, sans snow con sol? Would an 8 year old recognize a pile of American duckets? What would one do to confirm the 'trash' they were holding is in fact a pile of dirty green? Perhaps brush, break and whisk away the outer layer(s) until the unmistakable portrait of Ol' Hickory beams back at the holder.

Fresh deposit or artifact of dredging seems to indicate Cooper having been deposited some place upstream from Tena Bar. A dredge moving TV sets or soup cans would possibly fling other packs of money, parachute hardware, fabric remnants and the like. The frantic search through Tena Bar produced no such examples.

The initial point favoring solutions with a simple architecture. The farmer thought it was fresh drift debris versus the money marking where Cooper drilled into eternity. Although I don't carry a large believe in the 'float' theory about a cash pack submerged in water for years. The 'ground zero' hypothesis seems to have been disproved through empirical means.

If nothing else, a reasonable assumption would move the touchdown point somewhere upstream of Tena Bar and on or down stream of the aircraft's track. As you have pointed out (nice graphic), the Columbia holds the greatest percentage of probability as it has the greatest surface area. Very simple and reasonable approach. For that you must be punished for heresy. Throw in the Willamette River and you should be burned on the stake.

Anchors aweigh. Cooper was sporting some of the finest skydiving gear produced by Uncle Sam. Back pack (30 lbs), chest pack (15 lbs), money (20 lbs), brief case and contents (5 lbs) or 70 pounds of accessories for the modern day hijacker. Too bad Cooper didn't request an additional 2 pounds of gear which is designed to compliment the back pack chute. What knowledgeable, trained by the military, skydiver would jump without wings?

Water wings that is; OK, OK flotation devices. A pair of CO2 filled bladders capable of supporting 200 pounds each; are worn discretely under each arm of the jumper. This device is known to all military aviators and considered mandatory equipment.

What would happen in the 'unlikely event of a water landing' where an individual had the chute deploy and deposit them into the drink? I know a water landing without the water wings would make for an extremely difficult event without the burden of a money bag, briefcase and chest pack.

Thoughts and analysis?

[Orange1 0]

Farflung, how small would the (uninflated) water wings pack up? Would they be flat enough to fit inside the normal pocket on the inside cover of a briefcase, for example, or perhaps in a not-too-large paper bag? (possibly along with an alti and goggles...)

edited to add: btw, i'm not sure many people here think he actually jumped with the briefcase. true, it has never been found, but surely it is more likely he either purposely chucked it out, or dropped it on exit, than landed with it?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.flighthelmet.com/pages/fg/fgthumbs/pfg-tn-lpu10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flighthelmet.com/pages/fg/pfg.htm&usg=__oGFyGIETTJwdspk-Zaf8givN4Mk=&h=125&w=116&sz=7&hl=en&start=13&um=1&tbnid=e_tQCyGBiCKDUM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=84&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlpu%2B10%2B%2Bfloatation%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Search for LPU.

I've used surplus LPU 10 CO2 cartridge powered floatation gear when jumping near water. The picture shows two LPU 10s as part of a harness. You can separate the LPU 10s and use them individually. It would be very easy to conceal one.

The 727 may have had underseat inflatable life vests too. They are in small packages. Domestic flights often relied on seat cushions, but some acft had both so that they could be dispatched on overwater pax flights without reconfiguring.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

Orange1,

In a word 'Easily'.

Had not considered that option, further proving how simple of an individual I am.

If I had the un-inflated water wings in my brief case; I would make sure and get a chute that accommodates their use. The force of inflation is great enough to break ribs if restricted.

Regarding the brief case, I could believe either ethos (+/- 5 lbs).

337,

The LPU-10's are the puppies I was referencing great example and anecdotes

[377 22]

Quote

Fish and eels are so common that they no longer cause comment."

Sorry, eels ALWAYS cause comments, just like bats and snakes do regardless of how common they are. It has something to do with primitive archetypes. Freud and Jung had something to say about that.

Wonder if they ever dredge up live King Salmon, Cohos or Steelhead on their way upstream to spawn? Now I am sure they dont dredge during those spawner transit periods but back in the day they might have.

The ten fathoms of chain anecdote really tells you a lot about what those dredge pumps can do.

I love it when Snow and Georger start posting about the Tena Bar site and money find. We actually get some synergy and thought provoking conclusions. I am really leaning towards a dredge transport explanation for the found bills.

Sure beats the ship propeller snag explanation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Her engineers do not yet understand how so much chain could have passed through the pumps without becoming entangled.

Here is my explanation: the chain entered the suction pipe and got straightened out during transit. Some types of marine chain (BBB type links for example) is specially designed to resist tangles when balled up or stacked. "Proof coil" type links are far more tangle prone than BBB.

I think the chain went through the impeller chamber serially, link by link, fitting in between the clearance between impeller wheel and chamber surface.

If the links sucked up by the dredge were larger than this clearance distance then we had better consult Bruce. He is not as constrained as I am by a conflict in physical dimensions.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Fragments of Previous Post

Almost immediately after the Highjacking the FBI was in California chasing some leads.
The FBI's rule of confidentiality meant the names of these suspects were never revealed and they will not reveal them to this day. Obviously they were checked out and ruled out. They either had an alibi or they were deceased.

Think about deceased - a dead man could not be Cooper...end of investigation. Are any of you aware that during the war effort lots of the guys had families and did not want to ship out - and became a CPS. Some of these CPS's would later fulfill their obilgations.
=======================


When I made the above post - I was HOPING for some feed back.
The FBI will NOT give the names of suspects reported to them from the CA area. Also the suspects reported to the FBI by service men who claimed they served with a guy who they thought was Cooper.

I want to know how to find the names of the suspects. Guru was a suspect (he talks about the FBI thinking he was Cooper). There has to be CA. jumpers and service men the FBI investigated and people do talk about this just like Guru does (they just do not read this forum). In the CA news and NV news and the skydiving communities - surely there was TALK. How do I find these people? CAN anyone help?

It has been decided that I will have to go to CA, but I was hoping it could be done without my trying to make that trip. The fact that the archives and pictures and material have been scattered thru - serveral states means the trip might be futile. There has to be an easier way.

THE DAMN FBI has the names they investigated, but won't supply them even to noted researchers - the FBI either doesn't want to solve this or they are jerks.

If the names are given to a NOTED researcher who also knows more about WEBER's background than I do - for this person to make the name comparisons and look for the connections - Would the FBI do that? HELL NO! I nor the public would have access to the information - just the researcher on a confidentially basis. The FBI doesn't even trust a noted researcher - because the information might used for other purposes.

NOTHING makes sense about the "closed" files regarding Cooper and why after I contacted them yrs ago about a specific thing they immediately made certain records from 1944 - 1951 - NOT accessible until 2015 and some later than that. The individuals who ordered the classification - KNEW there was NO WAY I would be alive in 2015.

Another record they knew I was interested in was closed until the 2030's. These record where open and then closed - NONE of this makes sense..

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Quote

the FBI either doesn't want to solve this or they are jerks.

Jo, your alternative explanation highlighted above may appeal to Snow.

Snow and Galen make very good points about the FBI's discriminatory providing of access to files, physical evidence etc. Why does Tom get file access, a loan of phyical evidence etc...?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Search for LPU.

I've used surplus LPU 10 CO2 cartridge powered floatation gear when jumping near water. The picture shows two LPU 10s as part of a harness. You can separate the LPU 10s and use them individually. It would be very easy to conceal one.

The 727 may have had underseat inflatable life vests too. They are in small packages. Domestic flights often relied on seat cushions, but some acft had both so that they could be dispatched on overwater pax flights without reconfiguring.

377 - regarding the subject of flotation devices:

In one of the books (don't remember which one) there is a "CLAIM" that Tina Mucklow said the corner of a green "plastic" like bag was sticking out from the pocket in the back of the briefcase. There was no other mentions of this bag by FBI or others - also the shade of green was never stated.

I wonder if this is not one of those little pieces of fiction that gets retold over the yrs.

Anyone else remember reading this?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

My LPU 10s have olive drab green nylon fabric cases, but the material is kind of shiny and could be mistaken for plastic.

I have not heard the rumor about Tina seeing such a thing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

Orange1, 377,

You made me think about the LPU-10 some more. The LPU was the FIRST piece of life support equipment donned before a bailout.

Ms Mucklow has been quoted (my rotten memory) Cooper as putting on the primary chute like he has done it many times before. If this is true, the LPU would have been of less use.

[377 22]

We used to put LPU 10s on after donning the rig. They had webbing loops that you could thread the chest strap though. Most jumpers just used one. I had no idea if they would even have worked. They hadnt been tested, were military surplus, and were loaned to student jumpers by the DZ because there was a drownable body of water within a mile of the dropzone.

My first jump instructor said that all jumpers should carry a few condoms when they jump, and not for what you are thinking. He said they are the smallest inflatable floatation device available and you could fit a bunch in a jumpsuit pocket. Not a bad idea actually.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

farf said "Water wings that is; OK, OK flotation devices. A pair of CO2 filled bladders capable of supporting 200 pounds each; are worn discretely under each arm of the jumper. This device is known to all military aviators and considered mandatory equipment. "

These guys knew they were jumping near water.

Sept 1972. Skydivers giving a demo near the shores of the Columbia River in Brewster, WA ...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=btERAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iOwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7061,2001797&dq=skydivers+drown+columbia

All 3 jumpers go into the water. Two come out, one alive. The third not found. (have to check if the third was ever found.)

Craig Johnson, 25, Seattle died, body recovered.
Jon Zerr, 24, Renton..appears body was never found.
Steve Lightfoot, 20, Seattle. Shock, treated, released.

The search team argued that the current was strong and the search area large.

They planned to land on the ground.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=btERAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iOwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7147,1954034

jump apparently a 3-way.

"Horner said the Sheriff's Dept. boat was standing by when the men jumped and got out in time to pick up Lightfoot. The boat could not reach Johnson in time and Zerr had disappeared by the time the boat crew began looking for him, Horner said."

"The sheriff said witnesses reported Zerr had released his parchute and began swimming to the nearer bank, which Horner said, was across the river's mainstream"

"Horner said two of his divers had to stop their search early because they were exhausted by fighting the heavy river current"

[snowmman 3]

377 said "think the chain went through the impeller chamber serially, link by link, fitting in between the clearance between impeller wheel and chamber surface. "

reasonable. I read an old description of a dredge pump modification where they wanted to deal with lots of stumps going thru...they cut the impeller blades somehow. I forget exactly.

But yeah...anything mechanical has clearances. The clearances in a 30" dredge pump are unknown. Well we know it can pass balls of a certain size. I quoted current specs on 30" dredge pumps a while back (although I suspect the specs of modern pumps are a little better than the pumps in use in 1971, due to computer modelling optimizations, better capabilities in manufacturing, etc.)

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

the FBI either doesn't want to solve this or they are jerks.

Jo, your alternative explanation highlighted above may appeal to Snow.

Snow and Galen make very good points about the FBI's discriminatory providing of access to files, physical evidence etc. Why does Tom get file access, a loan of phyical evidence etc...?

377

I thought I was clear.
I have taken over the CSG and ousted all prior members.
I have access to all FBI information. I will not be releasing it to Galen Cook or Porteus. They can sue the ass off CSG or the FBI, and it doesn't matter. The information will never see the light of day.

Hey Galen Cook: Go F** off. The CSG is privileged access only. You don't rank. And don't bother voting at the next election. You don't count.

(edit) I was looking thru the vid snaps I posted a while back of Tom's visit to seattle. I posted some of the color photos of the money find from that vid. The pink parachute was there next to the color pics...so I'm pretty sure the pics showed there was a lot more evidence than what Ckret showed us. More money shots, a lot more dig shots showing the sand etc. I snapped what I could from the vid, but obviously, a full scan would have been better.

Hey: maybe Galen Cook could sue to release information about SR-71's being used by the FBI for domestic spying?

[377 22]

Quote

All 3 jumpers go into the water. Two come out, one alive. The third not found. (have to check if the third was ever found.)

You have to assume that weather was reasonably good if skydiving was taking place. From this event a winter night landing in the same type of river seems almost certainly fatal. Georger makes a very convincing quantitative argument of how unlikely it would have been, but it doesn't rule it out. The Tena Bar money find is more supportive of a river landing than a dry land landing, but you can't really say it proves either one.

I want Cooper to have lived. I dont like this water landing stuff.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

One of the subcontractors of SMMI suggested it might be helpful if the Citizen Sleuths Group extracted information from the computer systems the FBI uses to track tips sent in by the public.

There were 3 systems found:
Pyramid
Rapid Start
ICON

There was a lot of terrorism stuff in Pyramid. Some Zazi stuff. The frontend was a bunch of different servers, but ended up in a database system. Millions of tips here. The subcontractor used some SQL hacks here. Apparently the manufacturer, Advanced Technology Systems, leaves a testing back door password, that is reset to its default whenever patch software is installed.

They couldn't get to Rapid Start.

ICON was a Microsoft Access database...actually there's ICON and ICON Plus. ICON Plus uses a Oracle database. It was only accessible when connected to Pyramid for download.

The subcontractor found that all Cooper related tips were immediately deleted.

However, he was able to recover deleted files from the disk, that weren't overwritten. i.e. they were there still, just invisible to the system. Apparently there were a lot of tips about water landings. Also many tips about additional fragments of bills found at the Ingram site. There were 3 encrypted files.

The subcontractor says he knows how to take over the Seti@home stuff, so the world can work on brute-force decryption of this file, rather than the Seti stuff they think they're working on. Apparently the CIA does this all the time, to keep the budget down on their supercomputers, or when there is "off-the-books" 'no-warrant-here" work.

Jo will appreciate that there's a Mormon reference. There was also a tip phoned in about the Kenniwick crop circles. Apparently there's some hint about Cooper there, along with two other related crop circles.

[snowmman 3]

377: "Georger makes a very convincing quantitative argument of how unlikely it would have been, but it doesn't rule it out."

If i'm driving down the highway with you hanging out the door...and I'm going 100 mph, and we're driving towards a telephone pole, and I say..."Look, there's hay right after the telephone pole, just jump when you see the telephone pole."

It's the only telephone pole for 70 miles.

How likely is it that you hit the telephone pole and die?

That's why georger's last analysis doesn't really work.

The analysis of a 12-15 second window is interesting.
If you see the lights of Portland and Vancouver and jump, you're likely in the Columbia. (or the Williamette, but that's smaller)

There is a reference to a young person finding a body on the Columbia that night, but when they returned with a sheriff or LE, the supposed body wasn't there.

I have to find that story. It'd be nice if we had LE reports on any unfounded reports of bodies around the Columbia in that time period.

Regardless of what Jerry says, I think no one was searching around the Columbia in the first couple days after the jump.
Remember how they complained about waiting for the weather to clear to search?

Why would you care about the weather if you were searching the Columbia? You could just drive around in a boat or something.

I think you have to couple this with the focus on searching elsewhere? Although a water landing could have left no evidence.

I have to find that story.

[snowmman 3]

If Cooper had spotted on the Columbia and deployed, he maybe wouldn't have landed in the Columbia.

If he spotted on the Columbia and didn't deploy, he would probably land in the Columbia?

What about that idea, 377?

It would be interesting if he deployed and landed in the Columbia.
I was thinking the canopy would have been found, but from our discussions, I'm thinking not, now.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

My LPU 10s have olive drab green nylon fabric cases, but the material is kind of shiny and could be mistaken for plastic.

I have not heard the rumor about Tina seeing such a thing.

377

Since I have read only Norjax, What Really Happened, Ha Ha Ha and Tosaw's book.

I ruled out Hahaha and Norjax real fast - so it was Gunther or Tosaw and BOTH claimed to have interviewed Tina.

My memory without going back to the book says Tosaw's book.

Are you 100% these were available in 1971 or did they come about after the hijacking?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo

I used LPUs in 1970.

I was practicing for NORJACK, just kidding.

They were common in the 60s.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

377: "Georger makes a very convincing quantitative argument of how unlikely it would have been, but it doesn't rule it out."

If i'm driving down the highway with you hanging out the door...and I'm going 100 mph, and we're driving towards a telephone pole, and I say..."Look, there's hay right after the telephone pole, just jump when you see the telephone pole."

It's the only telephone pole for 70 miles.

How likely is it that you hit the telephone pole and die?

That's why georger's last analysis doesn't really work.

Snow is right and skydivers know this. How many skydivers have managed to hit the only obstacle in a large clear area? Object fixation.

I'm outta here for a few days...keep the good stuff going guys

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.