DB Cooper

[georger 244]

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I was sure I had read elsewhere, that the Fazios had spread the sand from the dredging on the beach where the money was found.

Looking back thru the posts here, Ckret confirmed it. He also gave exact dates for the dredging. I only had guesstimates as to the month.

yes. Fazios spread the dredge silt. I can get the dates if thats important. Ckret, Thomas, etc confirm this.

[georger 244]

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I did find a news article from back then, with the picture of the younger people with rakes and shovels. They were referred to as "fbi agents"

So maybe the 20 or so agents McPheters talks about, are those people intially with the rakes and shovels (before the backhoe)

I seem to remember Palmer brought some of his
students also, after he arrived. The photos would
show some portion of who was there. The excavation
at Tina Bar would make a nice thesis!

I am really surprised historians havent dug into
this case. I dont quite understand that.

I guess someone summarized this before, but Palmer wasn't there till the 2nd day? And the backhoes weren't used till the 2nd day? I'm too lazy to look back in the posts.

I honestly dont know what day Palmer arrived but I may be able to dig that up - I do know he arrived
with a colleague who helped on this project and
with several students who got involved.

I dont remember who got Palmer involved but I
can look that up also -

[georger 244]

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In the same post in 2007, Ckret agrees that sand is a preservative
Ckret says:
Once on shore the money was covered over by sand, which acted as a natural preservative, leaving what was left intact until it's discovery four to 12 months later.


But he decided that the money and bag was elsewhere (Washougal) in 1977 and floods moved it.
No supporting reason why on "why Washougal".

Basically there's no evidence that could be used to decide what happened from '74 to '80

There's no evidence to say that water moved the bag from '74 to '80. I don't know why Ckret leaped to that idea.

The depth of sand varies over the years on Tena Bar. Saying it's on Tena Bar from '74 on, is not some wild-assed theory. It's not much different, and simpler, than what Ckret proposed with a movement theory.

Actually Ckret blows it badly here: he says the money somehow, sans bag, gets into the Columbia in '78 or '79 and then arrives on Tena Bar.

It really seems like Ckret didn't know about the additional fragments...Because they make this theory sound crazy.

In 2007 he says:
Because it had been in the bag, the money had not began to disintegrate. Once out of the bag the money began it's slow rot, eventually making it into the Columbia sometime around late 1978 early 1979.

Once in the Columbia, the bundles began drifting down stream. It would have taken 14.7 hours for the bundles (if unobstructed) to make it to Tena's Bar, where 3 bundles washed up. Once on shore the money was covered over by sand, which acted as a natural preservative, leaving what was left intact until it's discovery four to 12 months later.

Ckret shagged that one-

"Once in the Columbia, the bundles began drifting down stream. It would have taken 14.7 hours for the bundles (if unobstructed) to make it to Tena's Bar, "

Kind of funny isnt it.
Safecracking must haved swallowed hard reading that. Today I believe Ckret would even see the falacy
in this.

2.5 wet heavy (silted?) bundles don't float sans bag.
The wet bag full of money would not 'float' on its own.

Or maybe it was 2.328579 bundles!?

The top bundle did the looking. The bottom bundle
did the steering. The spirit of the bundles went ashore at Tina Bar . . . the wind was easy, mild, and meak with bundles miles to go before they slept..

Whose woods these wree I think I know. The Faxios.
The darkest evening of the year.

[georger 244]

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Question FOR ALL. Can or could an individual change the parents names on a birth record? We are not talking about at birth,but later in life.

Pretty hard to do as a covert forgery. Other inconsistent early versions might remain. Certificates have been amended by court order to correct patenity errors.

Why do you ask Georger?

377

?????

[skyjack71 0]

"The top bundle did the looking. The bottom bundle
did the steering. The spirit of the bundles went ashore at Tina Bar . . . the wind was easy, mild, and meak with bundles miles to go before they slept.. "


I literally read the above statement and was cackling out-loud. Georger, I had this vision of those little bundles you see in the commericials with sets of eyeballs, but they had stick hands for the paddles and stick legs to go ashore with...I think they were floating on an ice cream bag.

I am sorry, I just can't stop laughing, The best joke you ever made,..and I bet you had this dead serious look on your face writing it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

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"The top bundle did the looking. The bottom bundle
did the steering. The spirit of the bundles went ashore at Tina Bar . . . the wind was easy, mild, and meak with bundles miles to go before they slept.. "


I literally read the above statement and was cackling out-loud. Georger, I had this vision of those little bundles you see in the commericials with sets of eyeballs, but they had stick hands for the paddles and stick legs to go ashore with...I think they were floating on an ice cream bag.

I am sorry, I just can't stop laughing, The best joke you ever made,..and I bet you had this dead serious look on your face writing it.

No, actually I multi-task. Watching "The Breed",
a movie, dumbest damned thing Ive veer seen,
also working a blueprint for a building, checking WX forecast for Hawk game on Saturday, and now writing this.... and phone just rang ... also thinking about
fried green tomatoes by 2:30am ! Hate to take a break to cook them but want them ... life is a struggle.

[georger 244]

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this is a good document
http://www.sei.org/columbia/downloads/karljune.PDF

from the recent columbia river channel improvement project
has color photos of all sections of the river from river mile 3
b50
to 106.5

has some good flooded photos, you can see a lot of sediment.
I think one is at where the williamette comes in.

Graphs of channel depth vs distance from shore at various places

those graphs include 1981, 1990, 2000 data

picture of their pipeline dredge in operation on page 29

1986 sand wave movement graphs starting on page 36 (the sand waves move downstream)

page 39 shows 1986 sand waves moving downstream 0 to 18 ft per day. (depends on flow). avg height change of 0 to 2 feet.

another nice pipeline dredge photo on page 45. you can see a LOT of pipeline stacked up ready to be used.

page 47 shows the proposed dredging channel by vancouver lake and tena bar. NICE! probably similar to the channel they dredged in 1974

They show proposed disposal sites. I think one yellow there is Fazios? (attached..fuzzy)

page 58 another shot of the pipeline dredge (attached)

they do use a hopper dredge too ..page 61 (not sure if in 1974)


page 62 analyzes turbidity.
they classify the soil as
Silty clay
Clay
Sandy loam
Sand
Silty clay loam

The hopper dredge is apparently only Silty Clay Loam

So: it makes sense there was clay at Tena Bar.
They also say "hydraulic cutterhead" so that confirms they use cutterheads on the pipeline dredge

heres some photos if they help -

[snowmman 3]

The next logical step, is to get Bruce to spend a day on the Port of Portland's pipeline dredge, the Oregon.

Bruce could dig up all the stories about what really happens. (It's either a 30 or 31 inch pipeline dredge)

I made a post a while back where I said that it's possible the current OREGON was the pipeline dredge used in 1974...i.e. the same one..

I don't think they used a hopper dredge in 1974. If they did, then getting the money would be dead easy. In the ocean hopper dredges, they have to try to avoid picking up sea turtles!

http://www.stormingmedia.us/69/6983/A698382.html
also
http://www.seaturtle.org/blog/mgodfrey/000463.html


I posted:

"There's a long history of 30" pipeline dredges owned by Portland.

A 30" pipeline dredge was built for the Corps of Engineers in 1912. The last time Portland had a big channel deepening was in 1912. (this was from a 1912 Corps. of Engineers report in Google Books) [Ed. not counting maintenence or the recent 2004-2005 stuff]

However here's another called "Clackamas" that was constructed by Port of Portland, reported in a 1927 book, that was a 30" diameter discharge pipeline dredge.

And from the US Congress, House. Commitee on Appropriations in 1966, they were talking about another new 30-inch pipeline dredge (5000 horsepower)

In 1959, this book talks about operating four 30-inch pipeline dredges simultaneously.

In any case, 30-inch seems to be kind of standard for the Portland guys.

Ah here's a reference in a 1965 book that says the Port's "new 30-inch pipeline dredge OREGON"

SO: That means in 1965 the dredge OREGON was considered new. I'm betting Tosaw is right that it was 30". I'll go further and suggest it was the OREGON."

(edit) The Army Corps of Engineers have two hopper dredges:
the YAQUINA and the ESSAYONS

[snowmman 3]

On June 17, 1978, the Port of Portland's hydraulic pipeline dredge (called "Oregon") sank at its moorage.

It was raised about one month later.

Cause of the sinking wasn't determined.

This is the dredge that is still in use today. It is very likely the one that dredged to Tena Bar in 1974

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=024RAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6uEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3007,4191166&dq=port-of-portland+pipeline+dredge

Did Duane Webber kill the cows and sink the Oregon?

[377 22]

Sorry Georger. My mistake. Thought you posed the birth cert question but it was Jo. When I try to read and post on my PDA I make reading errors. Text too small.

Doing HAHOs from 13,500 this coming Saturday with ham radio telemetry of following data: GPS derived position, speed and course plus sensed heart rate and SPO2 (blood oxygen level). Working on oxygen gear for going higher.

If we want to do a Cooper simulation dummy drop I have the gear to get real time data.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Good data on entrainment (capture) rates and mortality rates
fish, crabs, shrimp, oyster. (sea turtles too, on hopper dredges)
This is re 377's question about salmon.
paper comes from the military.

Fish go thru pipeline dredges.
Fish and money bundles seem similar to me. Except fish keep living too, (at a certain rate)

Hey, maybe 377 could fish with a pipeline dredge?

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA358595&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Sport and commercial fishes entrainment rate:
Entrainment rates for 15 species of sport and commercial fishes were reported by Armstrong, Stevens, and Hoeman (1982) (Table 4).
Entrainment rates ranged from 0.001 to 0.135 fish/cy for both pipeline and hopper dredging activities. Both small and large fish were entrained in similar proportions; therefore, it was concluded that large fish did not actively avoid the dredge any more effectively than smaller fish. Entrained fish during this study suffered an initial mortality rate of 37.6 percent.
McGraw and Armstrong (1990) collected entrainment information on 28 species offish during a 10- year period (Table 4). Most species (e.g., slender sole, Lyopsetta exilis) had relatively low absolute entrainment rates approaching 0.001 fish/cy. Species with the highest entrainment rates during this study were the Pacific sanddab (Citharichthys sordidus), Pacific staghorn sculpin (Leptocottus armatus), and the Pacific sand lance (Ammodytes hexapterus) at 0.076, 0.092 and 0.594 fish/cy, respectively. Larson and Moehl (1990) studied fish entrainment during a 4-year study at the mouth of the Columbia River in Oregon. Entrainment rates ranged from <0.001 to 0.341 fish/cy for 14 species or taxonomic groups of fishes (Table 4). The majority of fishes entrained were demersal; however, a few pelagic species were collected, including anchovy, herring, and smelt (Table 4).

Crabs:
..
Pipeline dredging was also examined by Stevens (1981)
and produced an entrainment rate of 0.243 crabs/cy.
..
Mortality rate:
Not all crabs entrained during dredging are killed. Mortality rates were found to depend on dredge type, disposal method, season, crab size, and overall condition of the crab (i.e., degree of softness of the shell as related to molting).

[snowmman 3]

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Doing HAHOs from 13,500 this coming Saturday with ham radio telemetry of following data: GPS derived course, position, speed and course plus sensed heart rate and SPO2 (blood oxygen level). Working on oxygen gear for going higher.

377

wow. cool. good luck! (with the gear, I mean..must be hard to get all that stuff working, in a tornado :) )

[snowmman 3]

This was a nice closeup I posted a while back.
taken 2/17/07

(edit) HEY! I think you can see the sucking end on the left...it's lowered down when working. Are those big things the cutterhead blades? ???? They're widely spaced if so. There's a big shaft there that may provides the turning power?

(the authorized channel depth used to be 40 feet..they were going to improve to 43 feet)

so the arm only needs to reach down to depth of 40ish feet?

[georger 244]

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Sorry Georger. My mistake. Thought you posed the birth cert question but it was Jo. When I try to read and post on my PDA I make reading errors. Text too small.

Doing HAHOs from 13,500 this coming Saturday with ham radio telemetry of following data: GPS derived position, speed and course plus sensed heart rate and SPO2 (blood oxygen level). Working on oxygen gear for going higher.

If we want to do a Cooper simulation dummy drop I have the gear to get real time data.

377

no problem. I also would liketo see a drop or two - especially one in wx condx like those
of 11-24-71 with the rotating cells moving up V23
corridor and winds from! 166*

You maybe noticed nobody (Jery or Farflung) said
a word about 225-235 vrs. 166 and Bohan. Jerry
has always mentioned wx maps of the day he has (or has seen). I have two also. I know Bohan's
report to Ken Hastings at PDX happened. (Bohan
spoke of this to H years later).

So the obvious question is: what happens when
you drop into those conditions in the V23 corridor
above PDX. ?

Even Jerry said the wx conditions Im speaking of a real. Would one of those rotating cells take a jumper west toward . . . ?

[georger 244]

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This was a nice closeup I posted a while back.
taken 2/17/07

(edit) HEY! I think you can see the sucking end on the left...it's lowered down when working. Are those big things the cutterhead blades? ???? They're widely spaced if so. There's a big shaft there that may provides the turning power?

(the authorized channel depth used to be 40 feet..they were going to improve to 43 feet)

so the arm only needs to reach down to depth of 40ish feet?

Looking at this photo I am forced to ask again: WHY TINA BAR!?

Of all of the shoreline and debris that washes up
on shorelines why "this money" at "Tina Bar".
Why not somewhere else as easily if it washed
up at all? I can think of a thousand other places
just as likely (especially if it came from the Washougal). Tina Bar is late in the chain if the
origin is Washougal especially for a package that
isnt floating in the first place.

[snowmman 3]

the picture of the Oregon made me realize that cutterheads have blades that are much more open than people might realize.

I attached a drawing from an article. Look how open the blades are in this case.

I suspect there are a bunch of different styles.

[snowmman 3]

still pretty open.
It's not like "fan" blades. Not even sure what speed they turn at. I suspect slow. (to avoid turbidity)

[snowmman 3]

this one is attached to the dredge (on the arm). Some vegetation hanging on it.

Hey, I think you can see the big suction pipe right behind it?

(edit) I zoomed in to look at the Oregon again..it looks like that arm might be telescoping? When you zoom in, it's definitely the cutterhead. I attached that one too.

I think saying that it's obvious the money would be chewed up, is wrong, just looking at the cutterhead. And we know it will go thru the impellers of the pump.

[snowmman 3]

I looked around, and the typical RPM of these cutter heads is 20-40 RPM ..i.e. at the lower end it takes 3 seconds to turn once.

I can't understand why anyone would believe this cutterhead would tear all the money up (i.e. 100% probability all money is shredded)

Even if someone believed that, what size is a shred?

[skyjack71 0]

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Looking at this photo I am forced to ask again: WHY TINA BAR!?

Of all of the shoreline and debris that washes upon shorelines why "this money" at "Tina Bar".
Why not somewhere else as easily if it washed up at all? I can think of a thousand other places just as likely (especially if it came from the Washougal). Tina Bar is late in the chain if the
origin is Washougal especially for a package that[/b]isnt floating in the first place.

The problem with all of this is the assumption it was not floating (which more than likely it did sink). Please take the next statement and give me your professional opionion of what happens to the money.

What happens if you bury the money along the shore line just above Winterly Park sometime in the early fall of 1979. Ignore the paper bag in the river just below the Portland Bridge, but with your knowledge what would have happened to money buried across from the airport and East of Winterly Park.

Maybe it was in some kind of container and weighted or he just buried it there (all we had was a snow shovel) - as a symbolic jester and later it was washed out by the currents and tides of the Columbia. This is pure conjecture because of the time he spent on the water at that location.

I believe if Cooper was Weber that he retrieved the money from another site within 1 hr drive of the Dalles - about 5 days prior to putting it in the river.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

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Looking at this photo I am forced to ask again: WHY TINA BAR!?

Of all of the shoreline and debris that washes upon shorelines why "this money" at "Tina Bar".
Why not somewhere else as easily if it washed up at all? I can think of a thousand other places just as likely (especially if it came from the Washougal). Tina Bar is late in the chain if the
origin is Washougal especially for a package that[/b]isnt floating in the first place.

The problem with all of this is the assumption it was not floating (which more than likely it did sink). Please take the next statement and give me your professional opionion of what happens to the money.

What happens if you bury the money along the shore line just above Winterly Park sometime in the early fall of 1979. Ignore the paper bag in the river just below the Portland Bridge, but with your knowledge what would have happened to money buried across from the airport and East of Winterly Park.

Maybe it was in some kind of container and weighted or he just buried it there (all we had was a snow shovel) - as a symbolic jester and later it was washed out by the currents and tides of the Columbia. This is pure conjecture because of the time he spent on the water at that location.

I believe if Cooper was Weber that he retrieved the money from another site within 1 hr drive of the Dalles - about 5 days prior to putting it in the river.

A lot depends of WHERE the money was located
on Tina Bar. Thomas and Kaye claim to know but
wont cough the info up in concrete form. Maybe
neither of them knows and are just bullshitting.

The FBI may or may not even know! Palmer did not
nail the location down, apparently, and Ingram is
no help at all and may not remember if he ever
knew. Nobody apparently bothered to nail the
location down or we would know it. I have the
feeling a lot of people are just bullshitting and playing games with this whole matter, to save face.
Once again, the simplest piece of concrete info that
matters .... is missing.

In addition no sampling and dating of soils
and materials was done by anyone, apparently.

There are tests that could still be done but nobody
seems to want to do them or tell us anything about
this matter.

We are being bullshitted by everyone involved right
up to this year...

All the wrong people seem to be in charge!

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger. Fazio's did not spread any of the dredging's . (on the beach)The only one that ever spread the dredging's was the army corps of engineer's.This was done only in highly concetrated area's. By the way I do realize my spelling is bad. Jerry

[377 22]

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no problem. I also would liketo see a drop or two - especially one in wx condx like those
of 11-24-71 with the rotating cells moving up V23
corridor and winds from! 166*

Me too Georger. It is easy to add temp and wind chill sensors, even accelerometers to the telemetry package.

Modelling tells us a lot, but there is no substitute for an actual drop. This telemetry takes all the human risk out. Alternatively you could just record data and not transmit it, but if you lose the dummy you lose all the data.

In my experience winter storms in the Pacific NW seem to repeat themselves, i.e. you can find a storm that closely matches one from prior history if you are patient. Of course some are unique, but I don't think the NORJACK storm was in that outlier category.

You dont need a jet, any IFR equipped jump plane could do the job. The ham radio telemetry gear is surprisingly cheap. There would probably be FCC rule hasssles using it in connection a commercial production, but who'd even notice? Maybe it is OK if nobody gets paid. I don't obess over FCC rules.

Snow? Georger? Sluggo? Guru? Your thoughts?

73,
377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I looked around, and the typical RPM of these cutter heads is 20-40 RPM ..i.e. at the lower end it takes 3 seconds to turn once.

I can't understand why anyone would believe this cutterhead would tear all the money up (i.e. 100% probability all money is shredded)

Good points Snow. I think the money found at Tena Bar could have passed through one of these dredges. They are not money blenders by any means. Slow cutter heads, lots of space in cutter head and in pump casing, etc.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Geoger. Fazio's did not spread any of the dredging's . (on the beach)The only one that ever spread the dredging's was the army corps of engineer's.This was done only in highly concetrated area's. By the way I do realize my spelling is bad. Jerry

okay.
But the basic point/question is the same.
Why did Tom K. think his measurement was valid for saying the money find and dredging spoils were unrelated?

He did a comparison of supposed money find location vs the dredge plumes in the '74 aerial photo, and claimed "150 feet difference" or something...like it meant something.

I could also ask "Why did Ckret say the Fazios did the spreading?" if the facts are someone else did. But that doesn't matter.