DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman Money chewed up. How could this happen I guess Jaw's did it , It sure wasn't a dredge. Now examine the piece's of the 20 dollar bill's you will find that there is no tear signs only natural decay and result's of tumbling. A natural occurance in water. I have reviewed a lot of the post . I guess every one decided not to ignore Io any longer. Oh well Duane still was not Cooper. Quade would have made a better Cooper at least he can Hallo jump with a pay load. I don't think a lot of you understand how hard it is to jump from a aircraft with excess baggage . wind turbulances and weight causes you to spin. tomble role . It takes many jump's to learn how to control these action's. Any experienced Jumper will tell you that it is exstremly hard to control your body position with bag's tied to you. I m positive that duane webber did not have this experience. Very few people did . The person that could have pulled this jump of with excess bagage atached would have to of been highly trained and one of a very few. A normal person could not have done this and survived . Here's a chalenge to any one with only novice experience. Jump under the same codition's as cooper did carrying the same weight using the same chute at night . document it when you do make sure you have a GPS device so we can find your body. But first tell me where your funeral will be held so I can atend. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say Jerry. You said a bunch of different things. (I guess you're saying something about jumping out of a plane being hard)

Were you offering to pay me to try something? $1500/day I'll do any stunt you want.

You said something about money tumbling in water, and relating it to the money found. I don't really know what you mean there. You have some data on what money looks like if you "tumble" it? Where did you get that? Tumble it with what..sand, rocks? sticks? ice?

[377 22]

Jerry,

You are spot on about how hard it is to get and stay stable with lots of excess stuff attached, especially if it presents an aymmetric air load. Even experienced jumpers have trouble with this. A whuffo would be in a flat spin or wild tumble really FAST and they would probably be centrifuged into unconsciousness.

But... what if Cooper pulled his ripcord handle right as he stepped off the stairs? Look at those Air America 727 S/L jump videos. The round canopies "squid" thus naturally slowing deployment and then fully inflate and stablize quickly.

I think if Cooper was a whuffo he'd never attempt freefall but would pull right after exit. I used to think this might overload a C9 canopy at those jet exit speeds, but the Air America 727 jump videos show that not to be a problem at all. They were built for jet ejections. Even in ejections they don't normally deploy immediately, however, and allow time for the pilot to decelerate first. C9s are tough canopies.

IF Cooper knew about those Air America jumps, he might conclude that pulling off the steps would be better than freefalling and doing a terminal deployment with an unsleeeved canopy... so you might have a whuffo and an experienced jumper doing the same thing.

Your thoughts?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Were you offering to pay me to try something? $1500/day I'll do any stunt you want.

Jerry,

With the money you saved on Jo's declined polygraph exam, maybe you could employ Snow to prove your point.

Negotiate an escrow of the $1500 per day. If he dies doing the jump you get a refund.

It is going to be a jump. Snow said: "$1500/day I'll do any stunt you want."

Maybe you and Georger could pool funds. I dont want Snow to do it, too dangerous, so I am not contributing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman. Chalenge you Never. Except when given a chance.Ha hA . jUST TIME For people to understand how hard this jomp would have been to complete.To have completed this Jump you would have had to of been one of america's elite or one of the elite from another country. During this time frame very few countrie's trained there personell in this type of operation. Had it of been a trained person (and it would have had to of been) There would not have been any evidence, apear. They would have carried out the operation very differently. Sorry Jo I just busted your final bubble. Still Hi Tech today would make it possible for some one to pull this off. However We would all no where to find a suspect.The US has about 45 team's that is trained to make jump's requiring the training and experience to do this . However back in the year that this was done not even a hand full of people could have pulled this off.If one of them had this case would have ben solved and no money would have been found at Tina Bar. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

If I follow Jerry's argument.

1) Cooper died.
2) Since Cooper died, he died in the Washougal.
3) The money has obvious tumbling marks from travelling in a river
4) Money thru a dredge would have cut marks
5) Jerry knows what people can do, therefore Cooper died in the Washougal.


I don't hear anyone saying Cooper didn't die. I'm not sure why Jerry brought it up.

If the money did land in the Columbia, we could have a reasonable discussion about whether that means it's likely Cooper no-pulled in the Columbia. It's a guess based on other things (like surrounding area populated).. But I'd go with the no-pull guess. But it's just a guess.

Probably a lot of farmers going to die in WA this Thanksgiving if it rains. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[JerryThomas 0]

377 Great comment. However I can still save that money. All it take's is to ask Snowmman. On the FORUM the best thing you can do is just ask Snowmman. To prove you wrong ,and believe me , He will do his best to do so. Still he is a good solid man and a respected online friend. Jerry

[377 22]

I agree Jerry. In person he is even nicer, a really good guy. I still wonder if I met a decoy/double and the real Snowmman was watching from afar.

I think I could have made it to the ground alive from that 727, but after that I am not at all certain. Breaking bones on landing or snagging a tall tree is high probablility. Either one could seal your fate.

Hypothermia disorients you badly before it kills you so you might not even be capapble of taking measures to cut your heat loss.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[1969912 0]

Quote

To have completed this Jump you would have had to of been one of america's elite or one of the elite from another country.

Jerry, I have to disagree on this. Let's say Cooper held the stair rail with one hand, and had his other hand on the ripcord handle. He could have bailed and taken almost no delay. He could have even stood facing forward and just pulled and let the canopy yank him off the stairs. No freefall, no stability issues. Even with an unstable FF, there's a good chance that he'd wind up with a good canopy above him (assuming he could pull while tumbling). The canopy ride and landing are a different story, but pilots are not elite skydivers. They do not even make an ejection-training jump. For nearly all military pilots, a first ejection is a first canopy ride/landing. The vast majority survive their unplanned ejections over whatever terrain they happen to be flying above, and in whatever weather thay are flying in/above.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[JerryThomas 0]

377 Controlled landing's in that time frame was hard. Water landing's safely was new especially with the what was known as the new square. Still it was fun . So is the wind blast. This initial blast can be hard to deal with on any jump. Especialy with a combat load or a money bag weighing 25 pound's.Tied around the waist or not properly attached. There are certain point's of attachment's to the body that has to be maintained. for stabilization. Still proper wind foil has to be maintained for stabilization.This can be done by body arm hand leg feet position's. Experienced jumper's can control this by using leg's and feet alone. I'm sure you are aware of this. Flat spin's was not the only hazard. A night jump creates a larger problem . Depth perception and positioning . This Im sure you know also. Alot of people don't realize or understand this info. When presented to them they still think they can make statement's of or who could make this kind of jump and pull it off. I have not brought alot of information up . The reason for this was that I was hoping someone else with experience would do it for me. The bottom line is based on my knowledge and experience in all field's. The reason for my statement that The man Known as Cooper is dead is a solid judgement. There is no way any claim that this man survived is possible. Definately not a duane webber or a Mccoy. I Knew Mc Coy personally.He even got hurt and he landed in the desert. Go figure.Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

377 The fir tree inima would still be s situation you would have to deal with. No shoe's would be another last but not least your positon at point of entry . Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

1969912.Stabilization still would create a situation not even you or I could control . Remember it was nite time exstreme weather condition's. Are you saying you are a novice jumper and could have made this jump? Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

377 Hypothermia is the greatest enemy all have to over come when placed in a exstreme enviromental situation's. This I do not believe Cooper could have overcome or had to deal with. To many factor's were against him.Still I do not believe he had to worry about Hypothermia. I believe he died on Impact. I do not believe he could have over come the wind foil factor's /stabilization isues of the initial jump. experirnce is the key he did not have that if he did money would not have been found. If you were to make a jump like that what would seperate you from that money? You are totally correct Hypothormia(if this word is spelled wrong it is your fault ) does efect your judgement. So does $200,000 dolars.Jerry

[1969912 0]

Quote

1969912.Stabilization still would create a situation not even you or I could control . Remember it was nite time exstreme weather condition's. Are you saying you are a novice jumper and could have made this jump? Jerry

It was night and the weather was bad, but not terrible, IIRC. Yes, I'm saying a novice jumper could have survived, especially if he didn't attempt a FF and pulled on or just after leaving the plane. Once under canopy, he'd be pretty much in the same position as a pilot who had just ejected - minimal, if any, steering ability, can't see FA, at the mercy of the winds, etc.

Anyone know if the USAF even teaches pilots how to do PLFs?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

How did we start talking about Hypothermia?

If Cooper jumped and deployed and landed around Portland or Vancouver, why are his risks of hypothermia any worse than anyone else out that night downtown?

I suspect he went in the Columbia, but I'm amazed how Jerry flits about, and acts like he's have a rational argument with someone about some thesis.
It would be fine except he attacks Jo, and he's as nuts as Jo is.

And this idea that the money displays signs of travel in the water. That's just not so. I've posted very high res photos of the money. There are no marks on the edges that can be attributed to some speculative behavior of rivers...not even with a stretch wilingness to "just believe".

You might as well say the money displays marks that mirror the cuts on the cattle mutilation.

I mean it's more likely that UFOs with lasers rounded off the bills, then anything Jerry is talking about.

Still can't understand why we're talking about hypothermia.

Hey did you see those guys in Sweden who stole a helicopter, lowered down on ropes, robbed the cash depot, and then left the stolen heli in the woods.

They kept the police grounded with a fake bomb by the police heli.

Jerry: Is it possible for someone to do all that. Oh never mind, there's an existence proof.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8270619.stm

police claim you always need insiders for this kind of thing. Will be interesting if true. Maybe Zazi planned it? or a disciple?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090923/ap_on_re_eu/eu_sweden_helicopter_robbery

In 2006, airport robbery got $1.1M while they were unloading crates of foreign currency.

In 2002, similar robbery, while loading foreign currency at the airport. $6.3M.

[JerryThomas 0]

1969912. Key word's Once under a canapy .Remember you have to get there chance's are it did not happen. You can assume all you like . Better yet just try it using the availabe equipment at that time frame. Under the same condtion's .Training limited. Knowledge limited. As a pilot you would have had some control in a combat situation . However this is and was not a controled enviroment.. I'm a pilot also I have had many jump's. I am also a survival expert and have taught in alaska and in jungle inviroment's. To include combat tactic's in all Phases. I have also instructed assault climber's courses Alpine and Nordic Sking to include high altitudede search and rescue operation's.. to include survival escape and evaison. My record's can be examined at any time. Now let's consider what could have happened after cooper had left the plane. Or what could have happened if he had just made a leasier walk don the stair's. He released his grip then fell into the darkness. Now what . Does he free fall or flip ,maybe he goes into a spin. Either way is he upside down or right side up . Depth perseption. is he 100ft from the ground or is he 9,000 feet from the ground . He does not know. Would you .Jerry

[snowmman 3]

I have no idea what you're talking about Jerry.
You honestly come across like every other military guy in a bar I've ever run into.

If you're all that, then what all did you do with that knowledge, after you left the loving embrace of Uncle Sam? My guess: nothing. My honest reaction then is: you don't know jack.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman I don't realy atack Jo . The truth is I attack those that make comment's that cooper could have survived the jump. Many people have claimed to be cooper or known who cooper was. All this does is stall the investigation. Maybe someone just might no a person that is the real cooper and will not come forward because of other's claims . This is a common occurance. I don't realy no why ,others claim to no who cooper was or to have been married to him, than it may be a chance to gain false notority. What I have posted today should be used as a guide line in determining if a claim is worth responding to. Remember experience training common sense is the key. I do realize that I will get a lot of reprocution over this statement. However it will not be by a jump master or a experienced Hallo Jumper or instructor or a survival expert. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Sounds like you're pretty effective with your investigative techniques, Jerry. Good luck!

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman . I'm Just Replying to post made. I'm sure it is hard for you to follow . The post I am responding to is pastense.and some present . The Bar comment was cool only one problem. I haven't been to one in years. Can you recomend one ,Thanks. Jerry

[Farflung 0]

I went to several phases of emergency procedures (Bail Out) training and was taught to do a PLF. I recall the instructor ever so gently complementing me through a bullhorn about my coordination being similar to that of an outhouse rat ( that's good, right?). He went on to credit me with inventing the PFL - Poor, um...forgot what the F was for, Landing. This was in '79, so I assume others were getting the same guidance in previous years.

We were limited to the 'tuck position only' for bail out. I recall being told not to even think about extending limbs during 'free fall.' Ejection training consisted of 1. Arming handles rotate. 2. Triggers squeeze. 3. Faint.

The Air Force canopy was the C-9 (28 feet, I think) and festooned with white, olive, sand and DayGlo orange (for when I feel sassy) colored panels. After the chute saved our bacon, it would become our house, clothing and signal device. Even the line had a core of multi colored threads for sewing or making snares or fishing lines. Really tough, durable stuff.

One thing that did surprise me the first time was the effort and distance you had to pull the 'rip cord.' Not like the cartoons.

We were taught to rotate the canopy by pulling a riser down and spilling some of the air. I have no idea if this is considered steering as our goal was simply to turn into the wind before digging a shallow grave with our face.

I felt I had learned just enough to revert to training in an emergency and more than enough to really respect the hazards associated with overconfidence.

[JerryThomas 0]

Farflung You learned alot . Air foil direction is controllable during free fall. It takes practice . However if you want to carry a tent or a bag loaded with money or camping equipment. It is a completely different process ( so to speak) Air foil changes it is hard to controll the body position . I have run accross many people that could not accomplish this there main problem was that they always closed there legs instead of spreading them apart for stabilization. When you don't controll the legs and missuse the arms you alway's go into a spin. Jerry

[1969912 0]

Quote

Key word's Once under a canapy .Remember you have to get there chance's are it did not happen.

If you made your first jump ever with zero training or coaching, what would you do immediately at or just after exit? Do a nice arch and try to attain a stable FF? If stable, would you then try turns and tracking? No, you would deploy ASAP. You would have the D ring in your hand at exit, and the thing would be pulled and gone into the wind within a couple seconds after the decision to go. Based on what 377 and others have said, it would be a wild ride, but I really doubt that there would be time for you to enter a high-rpm fetal-position side roll that would entomb you within your lines and canopy if you deployed close to exit.

If Cooper was an experienced jumper, then he'd know that the safest thing to do, considering the baggage and jet-jump factors, would be to deploy ASAP after exit - screw taking the time and risk of trying to get stable. Either scenario, IMHO, would be the same - deploy ASAP, and the likelihood of ending up under a good canopy is high.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 244]

Quote

Geoger. Fazio's did not spread any of the dredging's . (on the beach)The only one that ever spread the dredging's was the army corps of engineer's.This was done only in highly concetrated area's. By the way I do realize my spelling is bad. Jerry

Thats not the info I have. The Corps started (did basic spreading-leveling). Fazio came down and
pushed and leveled things around more after the Corps was gone. Itwas his property.

Ask him?

Bruce can ask him?

Fazios did provide the backhoe and operated it
for the excavation (thats my understanding) ?

Where did Ckret get the idea Fazio did the dregde
grading if he didnt do some?

[georger 244]

Quote

377 Controlled landing's in that time frame was hard. Water landing's safely was new especially with the what was known as the new square. Still it was fun . So is the wind blast. This initial blast can be hard to deal with on any jump. Especialy with a combat load or a money bag weighing 25 pound's.Tied around the waist or not properly attached. There are certain point's of attachment's to the body that has to be maintained. for stabilization. Still proper wind foil has to be maintained for stabilization.This can be done by body arm hand leg feet position's. Experienced jumper's can control this by using leg's and feet alone. I'm sure you are aware of this. Flat spin's was not the only hazard. A night jump creates a larger problem . Depth perception and positioning . This Im sure you know also. Alot of people don't realize or understand this info. When presented to them they still think they can make statement's of or who could make this kind of jump and pull it off. I have not brought alot of information up . The reason for this was that I was hoping someone else with experience would do it for me. The bottom line is based on my knowledge and experience in all field's. The reason for my statement that The man Known as Cooper is dead is a solid judgement. There is no way any claim that this man survived is possible. Definately not a duane webber or a Mccoy. I Knew Mc Coy personally.He even got hurt and he landed in the desert. Go figure.Jerry

well, in point of fact, nobody witnessed Cooper
jump or was with him as he jumped and knows
whathe did or did not do - its all guesswork based
on a lot of assumptions & interpretations. This case
is full of guesswork and assumptions which have
turned out to be wrong.

Nobody has any solid proof what happened to
Cooper outside of his money turning up on Tina
Bar.

Cossey said: "if he pulled (got that chuite open)
he landed".