DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger , Sorry I haven't Responded to most post I have been at my uncle's place south of Eugeene Oregon. My aunt just died un expectedly. At 62 Yrs. old . They have found no cause for ner death.We buried her yesterday. I am now headed back to washougal for a week search. Or to tell the truth to grieve . and search

[georger 244]

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Geoger , Sorry I haven't Responded to most post I have been at my uncle's place south of Eugeene Oregon. My aunt just died un expectedly. At 62 Yrs. old . They have found no cause for ner death.We buried her yesterday. I am now headed back to washougal for a week search. Or to tell the truth to grieve . and search

Sorry to hear this Jerry. Tke care - get some rest.
All OK and holding firm here. Oldest son just
announced a new grandchild - Im working on
an observatory to get it ready for remodling next
Spring (but weather dropped out, very cold!), ....
more, we can talk when you are rested. Take care.

The project we discussed is still on the table but
the lady got very busy with classes etc - she is backed up but hasnt forgpotten us. I told her no
rush...
G.

[skyjack71 0]

Did anyone see that segment tonight on Wings - they were flying and zooming? It was exciting to watch what these guys were going in their Wing suits at 150 MPH.

Snowmman - your old avatar looks like one of the main characters on Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. Friday it was about solitary confinement.

How some individual survive this and how cruel it is - the argument was if it was cruel to use this with prisoners of war, why is it acceptable to use it within our penal system?

Duane Weber was subject to solitary confinement and was fed only bread and water on occasions. True or False? Yes, I do know the answer to that one.

Criminals learn a certain behaviour to survive the confinement and others hurt themselves or become emotionally disturbed. Even though the program on TV was fiction they do use information that is sometimes fairly reliable when it comes to forensics or criminal behaviour.

Question: If Cooper had been subjected in his life to periods of Solitary Confinement as a prisoner of war or in the penal system - how did this affect his ability to function in the highjacking and the aftermath of survival and controlling what happend in his life if he survived the jump and/or long period running and hiding.

I am thinking the conditioning of the mind within solitary confinement with certain individuals would heighten their ability to Hide their feelings and to not react - to go within themselves to find a safe place to stay till it is over. Anger and rage would only increase his time in the hole. There has to be great deal of control learned in order to not end up in there again.

Have any studies of solitary confinement ever been done to see what happens in the lives of those subjected to this? Do they become more secretive, quieter, obsessive, hiding things, compassionate, angry, sad, mean, holding back or more giving in relationships? Just curious?

The FBI did a profile on Cooper but they didn't figure multiple backgrounds into that profile. I think you would have to do this and also the profile given by the FBI was NOT 1971 oriented...I don't remember who presented this profile, but the lack of 1971 orientation was the most important thing I noted at that time.

I am not sure the FBI is capable of profiling a man who was 45 yrs old in 1971.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Special Agent Carr:

"Them clothes has got laundry numbers on 'em.
You remember your number and always wear the ones that has your number.
Any man forgets his number spends a night in the box.

(passing out spoons) This Here spoon you keep with you and any man loses his spoon spends a night in the box.

There is no playing grabass or fighting in the building. You got a grudge against another man you can fight him Saturday afternoon. Any man playing grabass or fighting in the building spends a night in the box.

First bell is at five minutes of eight when you will get in your bunk and last bell is at eight...

Any man not in his bunk at eight will spend a night in the box.

There is no smoking in prone position in bed. To smoke you must have both legs over the side of your bunk. Anyone caught smoking in prone position will spend a night in the box.

You get two sheets. Every Saturday you put the clean sheet on the top, the top sheet on the bottom and the bottom sheet you turn in to the Laundry Boy. Any man who turns in the wrong sheet spends a night in the box.

No one will sit on the bunks with dirty pants on. Any man sitting on a bunk with dirty pants will spend a night in the box.

Any man who don't bring back his empty pop bottles spends a night in the box.

Any man loudtalking spends a night in the box.

You got questions you come to me. I'm Carr, the floorwalker. I'm responsible for order in here and any man that don't keep order...spends a night in the box.

Weber...I hope you ain't gonna be a hardcase."

[georger 244]

Quote

Special Agent Carr:

"Them clothes has got laundry numbers on 'em.
You remember your number and always wear the ones that has your number.
Any man forgets his number spends a night in the box.

(passing out spoons) This Here spoon you keep with you and any man loses his spoon spends a night in the box.

There is no playing grabass or fighting in the building. You got a grudge against another man you can fight him Saturday afternoon. Any man playing grabass or fighting in the building spends a night in the box.

First bell is at five minutes of eight when you will get in your bunk and last bell is at eight...

Any man not in his bunk at eight will spend a night in the box.

There is no smoking in prone position in bed. To smoke you must have both legs over the side of your bunk. Anyone caught smoking in prone position will spend a night in the box.

You get two sheets. Every Saturday you put the clean sheet on the top, the top sheet on the bottom and the bottom sheet you turn in to the Laundry Boy. Any man who turns in the wrong sheet spends a night in the box.

No one will sit on the bunks with dirty pants on. Any man sitting on a bunk with dirty pants will spend a night in the box.

Any man who don't bring back his empty pop bottles spends a night in the box.

Any man loudtalking spends a night in the box.

You got questions you come to me. I'm Carr, the floorwalker. I'm responsible for order in here and any man that don't keep order...spends a night in the box.

Weber...I hope you ain't gonna be a hardcase."

and any man's a hard case spends 10 years in
the box, and we lost the keys ta the box in 1945.

any man can't find the key to the box, spends the night in the box.

[Orange1 0]

Spot on quotes Snow, makes me think of the other line ...
"what we got here is failure to communicate"...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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377's gone quiet, I guess he's busy doing more high altitude jumps...

Yes, and outfitted with more telemetry gear than a Predator UAV.

Perfect HAHO jump weather today. Clear, warm 5 mph wind.

377

so let's hear some more details!

Well, the telemetry was kinda intersting, If I take my pulse rate in the morning, rested and prone, it is in the 60s. On these two HAHO jumps last Saturday it was in the high 150s for sustained periods.

Working a ham radio contest under Snow's demanding tutelage, it was in the 90s. Stress does elevate pulse rate.

After 41 years of skydiving I thought that a normal solo jump with no RW pressures or gear problems wasn' t scary at all. WRONG

If I was spiking 158 on a relatively low stress jump what was Cooper's heart rate? Could he have suffered stress induced tachycardia and some kind of cognitive or functional impairment?

My SpO2 (blood oxygen levels) varied between about 94 and 97, unremarkable.

I'll post some pix from Saturdays jumps in a link:

http://tiny.cc/7y00v

The black chest vest contained a couple of ham radio transceivers on 144 MHz and 1200 MHz. The cammo (sorry, thats all I could find) leg pack carried a big pile of ham radio telemetry gear which reported my position, speed, course and altitude. It also transmitted pulse and blood oxygen levels from a fingertip sensor which I wore during parts of the descent where I didnt need to use the canopy control lines.

I left my slider down after opening and flew in half brakes until final approach to keep my speed slow. Wind noise in the mics was less of a problem that way.

Seriously, could Cooper have been impaired by a racing heart? Any medical folks care to comment?
Snow, what can you find on your special Google preferred user searches?

Braden probably would have stayed at his resting pulse rate during the jump but not 377. 377 must like adrenaline. At $17 a pop it is an affordable drug.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Summary:

A flight out of New York on November 24 1968 - Pan Am flight bound for Puerto Rico was diverted to Havana, Cuba. On Sunday Luis Armando Pena Soltren was arrested at JFK International (yesterday Oct 11, 2009) arriving on a flight from Cuba.

The 1968 charges allege he terrorized dozens of passengers when he and his cohorts wielded pistols and knives to hijack flight 281. Soltren is now 66 yrs of age and the spokeswoman for the US district attorney refused to comment on why Soldtren was traveling to the U.S.

Another man, who was not on the hijacked flight was described in the criminal complaint in 1968 as the leader of the Puerto Rican Movement for Liberation - this unidentified man was found not guilty.

Two others arrested in the mid 1970's pled quilty to their roles in the hijacking.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Think about this for a moment. If a man has been conditioned to a prison off and on over the yrs and spent time in solitare, he learns to condition himself.

Could explain a lot about Cooper's actions on the plane - why outwardly he seemed calm. If someone panics in Solitare, I would expect this would give cause for them to add even more time to the stay.

Even when he could not get the door open - he did not seem to panic or become agitated. This takes conditioning or training. One would think if it was training he would have known how to get the door down.

We have discussed Tina's reaction after the crime and how she kept her "cool" during the time she spent with Cooper. This is something that just might be very vital in learning who Cooper was or wasn't.

Why did Tina shut herself off (leave the sexual assault out as we know Cooper did not have time for that)? What did he say or do that would cause Tina to feel a compassion for this hijacker who could hold her life and the lives of her co-workers in his hands?

We have ranted on - each of us defending our own agendas - put it aside (me included) to actually analyze Cooper and Tina during that time. It might be to all of our advantage to explore this and to invite a pshycologist and a profiler to enter into this.

1. Did Cooper have a girl child near the age of Tina? We would have to assume if this was so, they had no contact with each other...since no one was reported missing.

2. Was there a step-child he felt close to or responsible for? Perhaps one who had been
used or harmed and he felt responsible. Did he simply choose Tina, because whe seemed less threatening to him than Florence?

3. Examine carefully Tina's reluctance to discuss Cooper. Florence reveled in the attention, but Tina was a different story. Why?

4. Could Tina even recognize Cooper today or it is completely blocked out of her mind? Why has she been so reluctant to discuss Cooper other than to say "He was a sad man"? What did he say to her to make her feel this way.

5. I am sure all of feel there had to be more discussion between Tina and Cooper than the FBI has told us - what that was about could be the KEY to knowing who Cooper might be.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

very cool 377.

you can estimate a person's maximal heart rate from (220 - age)
The accuracy of determining maximal heart-rate based on this formula can vary at any given age by + 10 beats per minute.

Using the Karvonen formula, the generally accepted heart-rate ranges are between 60% to 80% of maximal heart-rate reserve.

Target heart-rate = % intensity X heart-rate reserve + resting heart-rate


assuming rest pulse of 60, a 50-year old has 110 reserve
80% intensity = .8 * 110 = 88

60 + 88 = 148 for 80% intensity

So 150 really isn't "high" ...it's towards the max end of what would be considered "training zone" for exercise designed to improve your cardio/fat burning.

Above that, you go into the anaerobic zone..develops your lactic acid system.

60%-70% is efficiency zone.

Above 90% would only be short term. Like sprints.


http://www.brianmac.co.uk/hrm1.htm

I would expect a certain amount of the increased heart rate is just due to the altitude change?...

If you measured your pulse rate when flying in a open plane, even if you knew you weren't going to jump, it would go up? Hmm..but I guess it would be a small effect.

[BruceSmith 3]

Of late, I’ve been attempting to contact Tina.

Part of it has to do with the fact that Florence has not responded. I’ve mailed her the pix of Braden, and Galen has said he sent her electronic copies. Galen says his relationship with Flo is pretty iffy.

In the course of all that, Galen asked me to partner with him on finding Tina. He thought a psychological-sensitive approach might be what is needed to successfully discuss the case with her.

So far, I’ve been unable to make direct contact with Tina. But here is what I’ve explored.

A high school acquaintance of Tina’s, who is now a mental health professional, blogged on a Cooper story in a Twin City newspaper, wondering what had happened to her old classmate. Galen made contact with her, and I joined in. I gave the woman all the information I’ve uncovered about Tina and described my concern for her mental state.

The friend has chosen not to engage my invitation to make a joint approach to Tina.

I made the same outreach to a member of the Mucklow family that Galen has contacted. Again, they choose not to engage.

Lastly, Galen got a phone number indirectly from Geoffrey Gray that was supposed to be a phone number to Tina, but after many tries and leaving messages, I spoke to a guy who picked up, and it was either a really good actor in Langley or a dead-end.

My sense is that Tina does not want anything to do with the Cooper issue, and her family and friends are protecting her.

It fuels a growing sense I have that all the major players in the Cooper case are clamming up. None of the FBI guys, such as Himm or Russ, will engage an explorative conversation, and Ckret, the FBI and the CSG are stone cold.

All my contacts are cold. Rat, Flo, Tina, Himm, Russ. Bernie, Larry, Jeremy. Can’t find any Braden relatives, and the contacts in PA are non-responsive.

I really wonder at all of this. It can’t be because I’m just a pesky journalist and folks are tired of the “Cooper nuisance.”

But maybe. I know that Himm does feel expoited by my brethren and sisters of the media, but even when I offered to pay for an interview he turned me down.

I'll call that guy from Nat Geo, then, and see what he has to say.

These are slow days on the DZ and in the Cooper case. And the summer was so hot, too.

[snowmman 3]

Weekly report from the CSG, who were each recruited by the FBI thru random web postings.

1) I did see someone playing Solitaire very quickly, on a computer in a back aisle of a electronics store. When I approached the computer to his left to inspect its monitor, and reached for the mouse with my right, he kept his left hand stationary.

I glanced over. He had his left hand covering a flash drive he had inserted in the usb port. This was as he played Solitaire.

He was either installing or removing stuff from the display computers. I assumed he was also connected with OGA, and just nodded and went on my way.

In hindsight he may have been copying documents from the FBI that I was supposed to then download to a flash drive of my own. I may have missed the transfer.

2) "Meet John Doe" is a 1941 comedy drama film directed and produced by Frank Capra and starring Gary Cooper and Barbara Stanwyck.

The film is about a "grassroots" political campaign, created unwittingly by a newspaper columnist and pursued by a wealthy businessman.

Infuriated at being laid off from her job as a newspaper columnist from The New Bulletin, Ann Mitchell (Barbara Stanwyck) prints a fake letter from the unemployed "John Doe," threatening suicide in protest of society's ills. When the note causes a sensation, the newspaper is forced to rehire Mitchell.

After reviewing a number of derelicts who have shown up at the paper claiming to have penned the original suicide letter, Ann and Henry Connell (James Gleason) decide to hire John Willoughby (Gary Cooper), a former baseball player and tramp who is in need of money to repair his injured arm, to play John Doe.

The Doe philosophy spreads across the country, developing into a political movement, with financial support from the newspaper's publisher, D.B. Norton (Edward Arnold), who plans to channel the support for Doe into support for his own political ambitions.

When Willoughby, who has come to believe in the Doe philosophy himself, realizes that he is being used, he tries to expose the plot, but is stymied in his attempts to talk to a nationwide radio audience at a rally, and then exposed as a fake by Norton (who claims to have been deceived, like everyone else, by the staff of the newspaper).

Frustrated by his failure, Willoughby intends to commit suicide by jumping from the roof of the City Hall on Christmas Eve as in the original John Doe letter.

Only the intervention of Mitchell and followers of the John Doe clubs persuades him to renege on his threat to kill himself. At this point in the movie, a reference to Jesus Christ is made, that a historical "John Doe" has already died for the sake of humanity.

The film ends with Connell turning to Norton and saying, "There you are, Norton! The people! Try and lick that!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet_John_Doe

(edit) Bollywood made a remake of the same movie as "Main Azaad Hoon". As far as the CSG can tell, no terrorists were involved in that movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPgQkWYyTco&feature=related

[snowmman 3]

“The Grand Hotel. Always the same. People come. People go...nothing ever happens.”
“Grand Hotel.”
-Grand Hotel (1932)

“I steal.” -I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang (1932)

“We do!” -Horse Feathers (1932)

[snowmman 3]

http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/oldnews/archives/188

her name is there. She doesn't know where Tina is.

"Tina and I graduated High School together (the Lankenau School for Girls formerly in Germantown, Pa.)"

[snowmman 3]

blog comment:

"The Flight Attendants were more polite to hijackers back then, than they are to passengers now!"

[georger 244]

I really wonder at all of this. It can’t be because I’m just a pesky journalist and folks are tired of the “Cooper nuisance.”

[Orange1 0]

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I would expect a certain amount of the increased heart rate is just due to the altitude change?...

If you measured your pulse rate when flying in a open plane, even if you knew you weren't going to jump, it would go up? Hmm..but I guess it would be a small effect.

When we did our first jump course, a friend of mine had his heart rate monitor connected (he is very fit, cycles about 15km each way to work each day and gyms as well, ran a half marathon for fun on the weekend, you get the picture) anyway... we did SL so we only went to 3500', but you can clearly see the heartrate climbing presumably as the plane takes off, levels out a while then a sudden move higher (presumably as the door opened) and then an absolutely massive spike which must have been exit. I can't remember any of the actual numbers though....

Bruce, re Tina "clamming up" - by all accounts she was highly traumatized by the incident. Whatever a pop psychologist might think she "should" do, it's understandable that she just does not want to talk about it. And if you look at it objectively, if she were to decide to open up at some stage, a journalist probably wouldn't be first choice...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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we did SL so we only went to 3500', but you can clearly see the heartrate climbing presumably as the plane takes off, levels out a while then a sudden move higher (presumably as the door opened) and then an absolutely massive spike which must have been exit. I can't remember any of the actual numbers though....

I was never so scared as on those early S/L jumps. We had to climb out on a wing strut on an ancient Aeronca Sedan. It was terrifying to me, so damned LOW. I could see people and distinguish a Ford from a Chevy. I calmed down a lot when I got cleared for freefall and could go up high where everything looked like a mosaic.

The USAF hooked up experienced jumpers to cardio recorders and noted a huge pulse rate spike after ripcord pull and before successful deployment. As I recall some rates briefly came close to and might have exceeded 200 BPM. It was referred to in the USPA magazine long ago. I can't find it but I bet Snow could.

I still love freefall but these leisurely sky cruising HAHOs sure are fun. I imagine they wont be so fun when the cold WX sets in.

I am pinging some military radio chat groups trying to find out more about the beacons and direction finders used by SOG jumpers in Viet Nam to regroup after landing.

Although Tina may have been planning to go to a convent all along even before Norjack, I can't help but speculate that the radical change in lifestyle was caused by something that happened on the plane.

She sure knows how to stay out of the public eye. Thanks for trying with Tina Bruce. Hope you won't give up on Flo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Bruce, re Tina "clamming up" - by all accounts she was highly traumatized by the incident. Whatever a pop psychologist might think she "should" do, it's understandable that she just does not want to talk about it. And if you look at it objectively, if she were to decide to open up at some stage, a journalist probably wouldn't be first choice...

[BruceSmith 3]

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I really wonder at all of this. It can’t be because I’m just a pesky journalist and folks are tired of the “Cooper nuisance.”

Maybe your and Sir Cook's assumptions were wrong?
Not to mention your approach which usually conveys intention! You just followed Galen Cook into a black
hole.

What justifies your statement:

"I gave the woman all the information I’ve uncovered about Tina and described my concern for her mental state."

How in hell can you make an appriasal of the mental
state of a person you dont even know and have never met and never will meet, and what in your own person do you think justfies such an approach based on huge assumptions?!

A 5 year old would have a better grasp of reality!

[snowmman 3]

Bruce:
the 5-year-old's view, is that there are no "principals in the Cooper case"

The Emperor Has No Clothes.

it's all fake..made up...etc.
It's just TV stuff. There is nothing underneath. No one behind the curtain.

It's all BS.

That's the thing. That's why everyone shuts up. Because it's all BS underneath.

Just nothing. No principals.

That's why I was able to take over the CSG. I am also now President-For-Life due to a bylaw change. If the media wants to know what the CSG is doing on the Cooper case, they have to contact me. But I won't respond. Because the CSG is more secretive than any govt. agency.

So it all makes sense.

[377 22]

How can the new CSG control what the former members do? What if Tom K publishes his rubber band oxidation based chrono analysis? Better stay one step ahead Snow. You'll need to be on the editorial board of the Journal of Paintball Technology. Reject all TK abstracts and manuscripts.

President for life? You need to dress for the part. I hear Fidel's tailor is available. He has been longing to break free from Khaki and Cammo.

Tina's remarks about Cooper's sadness have a hint of sympathy. Perhaps she withheld some details when recounting their conversation to the FBI.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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Bruce may try to ride this "goose" to the carnival,
but he should not be surprised if he is stopped on the premise of 'cruelty to animals' and a violation of basic common sense?

Now if Bruce, 377, and Galen Cook all pile on the goose to ride to the carnival - that could kill the goose.

The Golden Goose has left the building. All dumbasses should pile off !

Georger, YOU ARE GOOD!

Sorry Bruce, Georger summed up how I feel about Tina in the most hilarious way one could ever imagine. I see these tiny comical caricatures of Galen and Bruce and Grey on this Goose with a nun's habit...just where do they think they will get trying to ride that Goose?

Yes, I would love to talk to Tina again, but I have compassion for this young girl who has spent the best part of her life being hounded by the likes of us. She didn't even have a chance to be normal and go to 10 yr and 25 yr. class reunions...

I have always wanted to put the pictures in front of her (not the ones in the media) and ask some questions in person, but I know it is not fair to her and there will be nothing to gain by it. In my mind I stage this over and over, but this is as far as I go.

She was 22 yrs old and that was 38 yrs ago...she deserves her privacy - she has earned it. I will aways be grateful for that phone call and I will always have a deep desire to meet her and talk to her, but my compassion for others will supersede my own selfish desire.

Perhaps I will meet her one day and not even know who she is. You know , Georger - my heart wants to meet her, but my sense of decency and respect hope that Golden Goose flew the Cooper duh meant to say Coop and has met Mr. Right and is enjoying her Golden days under a new name.

I was going to bed early tonight, but after reading Georger's little story - I understood why I did NOT try to contact her again even though I could have gone to where she used to live and have knocked on her door. I had her phone number, but did not call her again. I knew she moved, but right now at this moment I only wish her well.

I have always believed if you live your life well - you can accomplish what you need to do without harm to others and without lies. There have been a lot of ANGELs (just a term for unexplained people bearing information) and I think maybe Tina has had something to with that...directly or indirectly.

There have been an awful lot of answers recently - things I didn't know, that explain the Grudge and the motive...I have actually began to feel like maybe I can finally bring this to an end in the next few months. This is not going to be at all what a lot of people nor myself expected should this research pan out.
No question about it - Duane was Cooper...but the real motive may come as a suprise.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

I really wonder at all of this. It can’t be because I’m just a pesky journalist and folks are tired of the “Cooper nuisance.”

Maybe your and Sir Cook's assumptions were wrong?
Not to mention your approach which usually conveys intention! You just followed Galen Cook into a black
hole.

What justifies your statement:

"I gave the woman all the information I’ve uncovered about Tina and described my concern for her mental state."

How in hell can you make an appriasal of the mental
state of a person you dont even know and have never met and never will meet, and what in your own person do you think justfies such an approach based on huge assumptions?!

A 5 year old would have a better grasp of reality!

So, what is the five year old's assessment of Tina, and the reticence of the principles in the Cooper case to discuss its dynamics?

[skyjack71 0]

Georger - go back and read the post just before yours. Earlier today I said things - to others but your Goose Story put a lot of things that have happened in the last few day in perspective.
Learning to laugh again.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber